Tactical creator is stale

[_mxrky]

Still no pep style wingers.

Still no ability to have a full back play as a 3rd cb (let alone the stones role)

Still no way to adapt your pressing shape to the opposition and tell exactly which player you want to press who. 

When will any of these be introduced? From a tactical replication point of view the games been the same for years except we have wide centre backs now. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by _mxrky

[Prolix]

Then design a new one. 

[Lasson]

I'm pretty happy with the options available. Of course you can't recreate everything going on in real life. Some stuff will just overwhelm the opposition and the AI. Even with the current options, you can overwhelm the AI.

[Irn Rvd]

Although slightly annoying, most of the issues you mentioned can be solved with player ppms. This can be a pain but also makes squad building a bit more challenging which is fun for me. 

[Andros]

I would also argue that some changes are new this season.  so Si needs time to work out how to implement these things.  But I agree that adding more to the tactical creator would be good.  i assume there will always be imporvements

[w_x]

You're correct

[Jack722]

20 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Still no pep style wingers.

Still no ability to have a full back play as a 3rd cb (let alone the stones role)

Still no way to adapt your pressing shape to the opposition and tell exactly which player you want to press who. 

When will any of these be introduced? From a tactical replication point of view the games been the same for years except we have wide centre backs now. 

Pep style wingers have gotten better in FM23 than 22 - but I agree they're still not perfect and it's still difficult to create Guardiola tactics.

FB as 3rd CB would be nice i agree, since i see this all the time irl.

Pressing shape imo is a bit over the top. I think with the triggers being added in FM22 the pressing and defensive side of things is good enough. As someone who's a bit of tactics nerd i can't even see myself wanting to set up pressing shape every game according to opposition, let alone the majority of the player base that are more casual than us.

On the other hand, the set piece creator could do with being updated as well as opposition instructions. It would be cool to seperate a pressing trigger - perhaps for an opposition CB with poor first touch / composure, and closing down - for a midfielder with great vision / flair / long shots. Also a way to double up on opposition wingers or some way to 'focus' on one specific player (think those times when Messi would be surrounded by like 3 different players)

Edited May 30, 2023 by Jack722

[The3points]

Pep style wingers are certainly attainable in multiple different facets, especially throughout the first 2 thirds of the pitch, and with a wide attacking width. I don't why you can't make them

[Fantasista10]

I think the game does a pretty good job at trying to get as close to real life as possible, and that's all it can do. 

However, I do think it can be improved and is overdue a bit of an upgrade. Especially as football has evolved quite a lot in the last few years with Pep and his disciples. Even Roberto De Zerbi is transforming English football with his style of play and results at a so called 'smaller club'. 

I think it goes beyond adding new player roles. Sure, we'd like a John Stones-esque role where the Centre Back becomes a second midfield pivot, or even a Ben White role where a full back plays as a wide centre back. 

I'm not sure what the answer is - I'll leave that to the talented people at SI. But I think they need to prioritise bringing the game up to speed with modern football, where formations are no longer a thing.

As I understand it, the game understands formations as a teams defensive shape, which I agree on, and that part is fine. You can ask your team to defend in a 4-4-2 high or mid block, but in today's football, this can take on all forms of shapes and positions when the team has the ball, which are simply not viable in the tactics creator in its current state. 

[(sic)]

20 hours ago, Fantasista10 said:

I think the game does a pretty good job at trying to get as close to real life as possible, and that's all it can do. 

However, I do think it can be improved and is overdue a bit of an upgrade. Especially as football has evolved quite a lot in the last few years with Pep and his disciples. Even Roberto De Zerbi is transforming English football with his style of play and results at a so called 'smaller club'. 

I think it goes beyond adding new player roles. Sure, we'd like a John Stones-esque role where the Centre Back becomes a second midfield pivot, or even a Ben White role where a full back plays as a wide centre back. 

I'm not sure what the answer is - I'll leave that to the talented people at SI. But I think they need to prioritise bringing the game up to speed with modern football, where formations are no longer a thing.

As I understand it, the game understands formations as a teams defensive shape, which I agree on, and that part is fine. You can ask your team to defend in a 4-4-2 high or mid block, but in today's football, this can take on all forms of shapes and positions when the team has the ball, which are simply not viable in the tactics creator in its current state. 

Agreed. And I'd like to emphasize those bolded points.

Player roles are just presets, but instead, the game should look to allow us to customize player movement and positioning (in possession) more than it currently does. Right now in football, everything is about space, and someone filling in that space. In FM it's a rigid system, where certain roles are going to occupy the same positions most of the time, while in real life it's fluid (at least with modern managers like Pep, De Zerbi, Ten Hag, etc.), and players think in terms of space (where do I need to go, based on where other players around me are) rather than roles, for example: "I'm an Inverted Wing-Back, therefore I'll always have to cut inside and play in the midfield". Players should make intelligent decisions, and if you have Roam From The Position on, then they should look to occupy other positions on the pitch, while players around them would shift, to cover other zones that are left uncovered due to that roaming.

 

On 30/05/2023 at 08:57, Prolix said:

Then design a new one. 

I'll never get this argument. So you are not allowed to criticize or suggest stuff now?

On 30/05/2023 at 12:58, Andros said:

I would also argue that some changes are new this season.  so Si needs time to work out how to implement these things.  But I agree that adding more to the tactical creator would be good.  i assume there will always be imporvements

Wingers holding the width during all phases of the attack, Fullbacks forming a back 3, etc. aren't new things at all. Sure, Stones being a CB out of possession and a DM/CM in possession is new, but I wouldn't expect that sort of thing to be in the game so soon anyways.

 

Overall, the tactical creator just looks like a bunch of presets you play around with (player roles, mentality). You're stuck with those presets, and you can only alter them so much via instructions and Player Traits. Instead, it should allow for more freedom in terms of allowing us to dictate how the player moves and what positions does he occupy in 3 phases of play SEPARATELY (because right now, roles are hardcoded to behave a certain way in each of 3 thirds of the pitch, and if you like how a role plays in the defensive third for example, during buildup, but dislike how it plays in the final third...well you're out of luck).

[Sinner264]

On 30/05/2023 at 08:57, Prolix said:

Then design a new one. 

Seriously, this is your reply to a valid critical opinion? 

Is there a hidden system of brownie points I'm not aware of? If so, you just got your daily SI award.

[The3points]

On 01/06/2023 at 04:31, (sic) said:

Overall, the tactical creator just looks like a bunch of presets you play around with (player roles, mentality). You're stuck with those presets, and you can only alter them so much via instructions and Player Traits. Instead, it should allow for more freedom in terms of allowing us to dictate how the player moves and what positions does he occupy in 3 phases of play SEPARATELY (because right now, roles are hardcoded to behave a certain way in each of 3 thirds of the pitch, and if you like how a role plays in the defensive third for example, during buildup, but dislike how it plays in the final third...well you're out of luck).

I think if the roles stayed the same but the player instructions were rejigged to include specific man-marking during pressing, dropping into certain positions etc, it would be the closest tactically to real football FM would ever be

 

[Slapt]

So, you guys basically want pic related from CM01?

I would love it but I fear it may require a pretty brutal, long and painful rewrite of the match engine. The fact is in old versions it looked tactically deeper but it was actually much less complicated behind the curtain.

[Minotti]

There are so many things missing in this game as in regards to tactics and I honestly have given up on trying to play it for the "invention" of having my own style of play. I do play FM cause its fun. But the tactics and the roles are so generic, stale and also based on already hard coded attributes on what THEY think a "winger" (for example) is. There is so much limitation and FM arent working on that instead on crap like Data Hub and all that fancy ****....

[The3points]

4 hours ago, Minotti said:

There are so many things missing in this game as in regards to tactics and I honestly have given up on trying to play it for the "invention" of having my own style of play. I do play FM cause its fun. But the tactics and the roles are so generic, stale and also based on already hard coded attributes on what THEY think a "winger" (for example) is. There is so much limitation and FM arent working on that instead on crap like Data Hub and all that fancy ****....

Have to disagree on that last count. The Data Hub is probably the best feature they've added in the last 3 years: before it was very much a struggle to see in what aspects your tactics was working, and also how well your team played, and the data upgrades to FM23 almost made me want to buy it. It makes it quite easy to isolate certain areas of your tactic and compare to real life statistics of model clubs.

[Minotti]

2 hours ago, The3points said:

Have to disagree on that last count. The Data Hub is probably the best feature they've added in the last 3 years: before it was very much a struggle to see in what aspects your tactics was working, and also how well your team played, and the data upgrades to FM23 almost made me want to buy it. It makes it quite easy to isolate certain areas of your tactic and compare to real life statistics of model clubs.

While it may have helped you, and Im sure there are others who felt that too. I just dont think its a feature worth putting much effort and it was an example of features. Dynamics is one of them as well. Its trying to be realistic but it just not necessary especially when so much of the game is far from realistic. Like tactics or lack of, individual roles etc etc. I just think they should focus more on giving us better dimensions of these things ahead of crap like that. Hell, maybe even add more attributes to players and so on. Anything that actually makes the game FUN and makes you feel that YOU actually can be the manager YOU want to be instead of generic presets (in tactics, in player roles, in transfer market etc etc)....

[Andrew Marines]

Back 3 really bad.

Wide centerbacks could nave been the best thing of the game but nope, absolutely not. Impossible to keep them in a midfielder position without having issues with other players or staying in that position.

Libero never reworked to be actually useful. You gotta play in attacking/very attacking to make him stay in the midfield but he's still too low to actually be helpful(at least on fm22).

Player traits do not solve the issues yall reported. They could help but not solve.

And let's not start to talk about set pieces...

I hope SI doesn't update it cause they're working on the graphic engine. If they're not working on one of those two things, i won't buy fm24. Didn't buy fm23 either and i'm fine with that

Edited June 12, 2023 by Andrew Marines