Why?? It’s the why that kills you in FM!

[SimonHoddle]

Almost entire season top of the league. Just squeezed through tense CL semi against City. But suddenly getting thrashed by poor teams for no explicable reason. Average opposition scoring worldies and Kane, Musiala etc missing sitters. Morale is great. Body language in games is fine. But league is thrown away. And without any good feedback in the game I’m left scratching my head.

if it’s because my club hasn’t won a league in 60 years and pressure too much to bear that’s fine. But I need to see that represented in morale/ body  language/ player feedback etc. this game is so damn vague.

[thejay]

Yes its randomness for no reason, my guess is they threw this in to artificially raise the difficulty 

[Lempicka]

Very frustrating. I've seen it on a few of my saves. I've found having two tactics works for me. When you inexplicably lose form, use your second tactic and then revert back to you first tactic when you start winning again.

[SimonHoddle]

Cheers guys. Kind of nice to know I’m not the only one tearing my hair out. It’s not the losing that bothers me. Just give it some logic SI. 

[SimonHoddle]

1 hour ago, Lempicka said:

Very frustrating. I've seen it on a few of my saves. I've found having two tactics works for me. When you inexplicably lose form, use your second tactic and then revert back to you first tactic when you start winning again.

Cheers. Will do. 

[SimonHoddle]

@neilbrockyoure always open with your opinion from in-house. I’d really appreciate a take from SI. does the game need more context so we understand why things like the above happen.

when Arsenal capitulated at the end of last year Arteta clearly knew the problem and rectified it. Unfortunately look at them now.
 

I feel like FM players are left guessing too often. My teams disintegration above has no context or rationale. So it just looks like a weak bit of programming to stop us cantering to the title (which I don’t think is correct but that’s the given impression).

[mdaw1985]

I've found its usually the champions league where the game makes my team throw a wobbly. Just before a quarter final pretty much every season I reach it, one key member of my squad gets injured for 2 months or more and even though I have good replacements, my team play well at home and then have a disaster in extra time away from home. FM22 though. Only time I got to the semi final was when I finished 2nd to Barcelona one season out of 8 with Real Betis. The rest I have won.

[XaW]

Please don't turn this into another tin foil conspiracy thread. This has the potential to be a place where you can discuss how to turn it around instead. So I urge you to do that rather than go into the echo chamber route...

[SimonHoddle]

12 minutes ago, XaW said:

Please don't turn this into another tin foil conspiracy thread. This has the potential to be a place where you can discuss how to turn it around instead. So I urge you to do that rather than go into the echo chamber route...

It’s certainly wasn’t what I was looking to do @XaW.
 

Perception is important though. I’m sure this isn’t a deliberate piece of programming but if unreasonable things happen without context, the people who buy and play the game will try and find answers. 

[Sardaukar]

Well...I was not amused today...

Started new game as Liverpool FC, 2 mins into Community Shield game, Man City gets penalty. Then Firmino is injured. Lost 1-2.

Then started new game as Man City, 3 mins into Community Shield game, LFC gets penalty. Then Haland is injured. Won 3-2.

Used same tactic for both teams, 4-3-3 DM Wide. 

That was bit of tinfoil time... 

[Neil Brock]

6 hours ago, thejay said:

Yes its randomness for no reason, my guess is they threw this in to artificially raise the difficulty 

With all due respect, that's a very incorrect guess. 

[Neil Brock]

1 hour ago, SimonHoddle said:

@neilbrockyoure always open with your opinion from in-house. I’d really appreciate a take from SI. does the game need more context so we understand why things like the above happen.

when Arsenal capitulated at the end of last year Arteta clearly knew the problem and rectified it. Unfortunately look at them now.
 

I feel like FM players are left guessing too often. My teams disintegration above has no context or rationale. So it just looks like a weak bit of programming to stop us cantering to the title (which I don’t think is correct but that’s the given impression).

Very difficult to say what's happened in this specific examples of games without seeing things in more detail, such as your tactic and what's specifically happened in these games. From really looking at those I genuinely think more often than not you'd be able to figure it out.  

Reality is that sometimes you do lose games you shouldn't and sometimes you win games you shouldn't despite your input, which could explain at least one of those defeats. You've said yourself the opposition are scoring worldies and your players are missing good chances, so there may well be an element of luck and you not being able to adapt tactically quickly enough. One thing you could look at is have you been resting players regularly and rotating? Fatigue definitely builds up over a season. 

From my own personal perspective, real life football management doesn't come with 'answers' beyond what's available to look at in game - so should the game? I do think that in terms of the game's learning curve and giving player feedback we could do more, especially for less experienced players. But there's a hell of a lot of information in the data hub available to you, you just need to figure out what helps you view the match in a way that you can learn from. We could certainly look at ways of improving that, but it wouldn't be something that would be straight-forward. 

The classic really is that you've been beaten by two teams in similar circumstances (Palace and Leicester) which I'd guess without being able to really look into it, suggests you've played a tactic where you've committed a lot of players forward against a team who have set up defensively and they've done you on the break when you've overcommitted. One post shot and going one down leads you to pushing more players forward and damaging the balance of your attack, leaving you more susceptible to the break.  Imagine in the Everton game you had a lot of possession and shots, but they were mainly blocked or from long range given they had so many men behind the ball. 

Also think there's a mentality of just because a tactic works against A, doesn't mean it'll work in the same away against B. Subtle changes and the use of opposition instructions can make a noticeable difference. The tactical forums on here can often open your eyes a bit. 

[SimonHoddle]

As ever, really appreciate the response.

In terms of data hub, probably best to leave that chat as some of the stats I see in my game are farcical frankly and I have raised as a bug (I play touch so that might be having problems).

I get reality means defeats. I enjoy losing to an extent as it shows difficulty and therefore a challenge. Sometimes losses come with a daft mistake by a world class defender but I remember there should be some artistic license and not to take everything too literally.

I get tactics should vary. Of course different teams play different ways and exploit different weaknesses. I do vary my tactics. I do understand the game and we were top of the league with 2 defeats after 34 games so I’m doing something right.

it feels like something different happened in the matches above. It feels like the game is trying to represent pressure. It’s a young team. Spurs haven’t won the league in centuries. I’ve lost my most experienced mf. All these are logical metrics. But…..real life managers have dressing rooms, training grounds, 121s, articulate assmans. All I see is morale through the roof, confident body language in games, very high training ratings and xG always in my favour. 
 

IMO something is missing from the game which gives reasoning to performances. I may be wrong. But other community users above suggesting that the programme is deliberately skewed (I don’t agree btw) tells a story. Being opaque creates a vacuum and in that vacuum wild theories will grow. I think the game and the developers could be a little more transparent. 

as I said in the title.. If we understand the why, it makes defeats less of an insult and more of a challenge.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by SimonHoddle

[XaW]

@SimonHoddle- How does your team rate for consistency and big matches? This is apparent in coaching reports if they are high or low. I think Big Matches become more and more important towards the end of the season if you have a shot at winning things, so perhaps you have a fragile squad who crumbles through pressure, as you say, and I think the most likely way the game reflects that are through those hidden attributes and only visible through coaching reports.

[Etebaer]

Imo some players are tired/fatigued as it happened as there was a tight schedule and maybe if you wee running mostly on morale it broke the camels back?

[warlock]

30 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

Imo some players are tired/fatigued

Looks that way from the screenshots. Some of those players look to have played almost every game of the season, very little evidence of rotation. And ratings for the most recent 5 games are significantly down on the season averages, suggesting the team just hit a wall.

I might play my first-choice GK in nearly all games in a season but I wouldn't expect anyone else to put in that kind of workload. Something to think about?

[SimonHoddle]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

@SimonHoddle- How does your team rate for consistency and big matches? This is apparent in coaching reports if they are high or low. I think Big Matches become more and more important towards the end of the season if you have a shot at winning things, so perhaps you have a fragile squad who crumbles through pressure, as you say, and I think the most likely way the game reflects that are through those hidden attributes and only visible through coaching reports.

Good question and high in both tbh. I thought that and checked. 

[SimonHoddle]

1 hour ago, Etebaer said:

Imo some players are tired/fatigued as it happened as there was a tight schedule and maybe if you wee running mostly on morale it broke the camels back?

I managed my squad. Made sure fitness was good throughout. There was a rush of games though, CL etc. But these defeats came too early in each match and condition was good at the start. Appreciate the Q.

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, SimonHoddle said:

Good question and high in both tbh. I thought that and checked. 

What about the actual attribute of pressure? Anything standing out there? Other than that, I imagine fatigue is a factor, as has been said above by others.

[XaW]

Also, can you upload the save somewhere? If so, I can take a look and see if I can see anything that sticks out.

[SimonHoddle]

42 minutes ago, warlock said:

Looks that way from the screenshots. Some of those players look to have played almost every game of the season, very little evidence of rotation. And ratings for the most recent 5 games are significantly down on the season averages, suggesting the team just hit a wall.

I might play my first-choice GK in nearly all games in a season but I wouldn't expect anyone else to put in that kind of workload. Something to think about?

Is hitting wall a thing in FM? If it is then that could be the solution. Appreciated.

It would be good to get some indication of that in-game. Because there were no indicators at all. As above.

 

 

[SimonHoddle]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Also, can you upload the save somewhere? If so, I can take a look and see if I can see anything that sticks out.

Of course. Thank you. How do I go about doing that?

[SimonHoddle]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

What about the actual attribute of pressure? Anything standing out there? Other than that, I imagine fatigue is a factor, as has been said above by others.

Attribute of pressure?

[XaW]

Just now, SimonHoddle said:

Of course. Thank you. How do I go about doing that?

Upload it somewhere, for example dropbox or anywhere else and just PM me the link if you don't want it public and I'll download the save a have a look. Not sure if I can spot anything, but I'll give it a go.

[SimonHoddle]

Just now, XaW said:

Upload it somewhere, for example dropbox or anywhere else and just PM me the link if you don't want it public and I'll download the save a have a look. Not sure if I can spot anything, but I'll give it a go.

Cheers. will do.

[XaW]

Just now, SimonHoddle said:

Attribute of pressure?

Yes, there is a hidden attribute for pressure, but I only think you can spot it in the coach report. I can't remember what it says off the top of my head.

[SimonHoddle]

Just now, XaW said:

Yes, there is a hidden attribute for pressure, but I only think you can spot it in the coach report. I can't remember what it says off the top of my head.

I’ll check. Cheers

[XaW]

1 minute ago, SimonHoddle said:

I’ll check. Cheers

 Going into spoiler territory here, so putting the next stuff in spoiler tags:

Spoiler

I think the following personalities have HIGH attributes for pressure:

• Iron Willed
• Jovial
• Spirited
• Resolute
• All media handling styles that include evasive or unflappable
• Possibly more, can't remember

Also the following have LOW attribute for pressure:

• Spineless
• Low self belief

Many of the others can have either, also real players will never have the negative ones and are replaced with "Balanced"...

 

[SimonHoddle]

5 minutes ago, XaW said:

 Going into spoiler territory here, so putting the next stuff in spoiler tags:

  Hide contents

I think the following personalities have HIGH attributes for pressure:

• Iron Willed
• Jovial
• Spirited
• Resolute
• All media handling styles that include evasive or unflappable
• Possibly more, can't remember

Also the following have LOW attribute for pressure:

• Spineless
• Low self belief

Many of the others can have either, also real players will never have the negative ones and are replaced with "Balanced"...

 

V interesting. I’ll check those. Never seen spineless hahaha

[Hovis Dexter]

11 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

V interesting. I’ll check those. Never seen spineless hahaha

I recall somebody on these fora saying that their manager was spineless but I’ve never seen a player so described

[EvilWolf1980]

Seems 100% accurate for Tottenham. 

[Lord Rowell]

10 hours ago, Hovis Dexter said:

I recall somebody on these fora saying that their manager was spineless but I’ve never seen a player so described

I've seen it once or twice over the years - as aforementioned only for newgens for obvious reasons.

[iAlwaysWin]

On 29/01/2023 at 18:08, XaW said:

Please don't turn this into another tin foil conspiracy thread. This has the potential to be a place where you can discuss how to turn it around instead. So I urge you to do that rather than go into the echo chamber route...

Why is it always the player and never the game? I accept the user might be doing something wrong to handle the pressure but sometimes the game just has it against you and no matter what you do, you cant win those games under those circumstances and that is a fact.Different scenario and different circumstances things can turn out so different.

[XaW]

6 hours ago, iAlwaysWin said:

Why is it always the player and never the game? I accept the user might be doing something wrong to handle the pressure but sometimes the game just has it against you and no matter what you do, you cant win those games under those circumstances and that is a fact.Different scenario and different circumstances things can turn out so different.

Indeed the game has issues or flaws. If you think you have found one, report a bug in the bug tracker. What I'm specifically pointing to here is that people don't repeat the same stuff that SI have debunked several times, like how the game is "scripted", or are predetermined to make someone lose or win a game. If you save scum enough times, you will be able to win any game, it's just a matter of doing what tips the odds in your favor. If you have a save with a truly "impossible to win" match, then post it here. People have done so before and within a day someone will show they have won it. If it was predetermined, then that would be impossible.

Some matches are VERY hard to win, but most of things that affect it can be affected by the manager. One thing I see all too often is the one where a user has gone on a long winning streak before losing several in a row. This is most likely due to either fatigue or complacency, or most likely, a little bit of both. This can be handled by the manager, but it gets harder and harder the longer the streak is. Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer!  

[rp1966]

Alongside managing complacency via team talks and press interviews, there's also the timely use of a team meeting which can be very useful if you suddenly lose 2 or 3 games after being on a winning streak.