What Is It That Makes The Gegenpress So Effective On FM?

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

Hi everyone

 

Just looking to ask as to WHY gegenpress is so successful in FM?

Just in terms of, what does it do to the opposition that makes it so effective?

I dont set up gegenpress style tactics generally, but in my experience im equally successful using gegenpress styles as I am with a more mid block defensive style, and in all honesty i prefer defending in a compact 442 mid or low block shape.

What are you doing with the gegenpress set up that makes it so effective?

Id be quite interested (just for once) to try and play as a low team and exploit the game, to see what its like to overachieve so badly

 

Thanks

[DarJ]

Ask Jürgen Klopp why it works IRL too. I'm going to use the Liverpool vs AC Milan game as an example because I'm a Milan fa and those are the 2 teams I watch every week. 

So Milan are a team that like to press high as much as the can and also like to build up from the back, however, in that game the constant pressure Liverpool were putting on the back 4 made it so that Milan couldn't play from the back thus their game plan was already destroyed, all they could was play it long and then loose the ball so Liverpool could attack again.   

It works the same way in game, you put a lot of pressure on the opposing team which leads them to mistakes 

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

3 minutes ago, DarJ said:

Ask Jürgen Klopp why it works IRL too. I'm going to use the Liverpool vs AC Milan game as an example because I'm a Milan fa and those are the 2 teams I watch every week. 

So Milan are a team that like to press high as much as the can and also like to build up from the back, however, in that game the constant pressure Liverpool were putting on the back 4 made it so that Milan couldn't play from the back thus their game plan was already destroyed, all they could was play it long and then loose the ball so Liverpool could attack again.   

It works the same way in game, you put a lot of pressure on the opposing team which leads them to mistakes 

Thats fine, I get that

But im talking FM here.

If youre an average premier league side, or even a worse one, lets say youre someone like crystal palace, to win lots of games youd still have to create lots of good chances WITH the ball when you get it back.

So on FM, is it just simply a case of gegenpressing and creating loads of half chances until one or two go in and hoping the relentlessness breaks the opposition down?

[DarJ]

17 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

it just simply a case of gegenpressing and creating loads of half chances until one or two go in and hoping the relentlessness breaks the opposition down?

That is part of it but I assume you'll also have to setup your tactic properly because there are times when you'll have the ball and you can't press when you don't have the ball

[Jack722]

46 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Thats fine, I get that

But im talking FM here.

If youre an average premier league side, or even a worse one, lets say youre someone like crystal palace, to win lots of games youd still have to create lots of good chances WITH the ball when you get it back.

So on FM, is it just simply a case of gegenpressing and creating loads of half chances until one or two go in and hoping the relentlessness breaks the opposition down?

IMO non-gegen tactics in FM22 are more successful than in the past, but I haven't played enough FM22 to be sure of that. But in previous FM's there are a few reasons:

• Terrible defensive positioning
  • When irl teams defend in a low block or mid block, the distance between the lines is very minimal. In FM this was never the case, it was far too easy to find space between your forwards and midfield / midfield and defence. The strikers also did virtually no work to cut passing lanes into the middle of the pitch. This meant that if you weren't pressing high with intent to win the ball back, your defence would be fairly non-existent. In FM21, I was able to set up an extremely solid and realistic low block by playing a 442 with strikers in the AM strata. We barely conceded any goals, but the tactic wasn't viable since the forwards wouldn't move high enough in attack to pose any sort of threat.
• Unrealistic stamina and work rate
  • If you press high either really effectively and / or against a poor team, you can dominate the ball fairly eaasily without putting in much work or energy. But in most games, pressing high for 90 minutes will drain you lots more than sitting in a mid block. In FM the rate at which my team's stamina drained felt unaffected by how we defended. It also felt too easy to get low workrate players to press. IRL you would have to sacrifice high technique players for less talented players that worked harder and had greater stamina, in order to create a reguarly high pressing side. What you would see a lot irl is a smaller team pressing high for the first half of a game, and actually play really well against a bigger team.. But then they collapse in the second half because they essentially run out of energy. Same can be said about tempo. FM basically removed the #1 biggest weakness of the gegenpress.
• User tendency to stick with one tactic through a whole season
  • IRL most teams press high in set scenarios, and drop deep in others. The defensive instructions are basically dynamic. But in FM, players tend to just 'create' a tactic, and play it 30 games a season and 90 minutes a game. This can work if you play attacking.. If you concede first, you are more likely to comeback.. if you score first, you can still score more even if you concede. You can't really do this for low blocks, you would get far too many draws and if you concede first, you may easily lose 1-0 as the other team can pass the ball around between the centrebacks. Every manager associated with low blocks and defending (Conte, Mourinho, Simeone, Dyche, Hodgeson) will spend a good portion of their season pressing high, when they're down a goal or two late on, or against a team they should easily beat. 
• User tendency to play more 'glamorous' roles and players
  • A team that's setting up to defend should probably focus on attacking players that can help relieve pressure and move the ball up the pitch (ie target man) and defensive players that can put in a shift and make a tackle (FBd). You probably also want to pick a more defensively solid formation with fewer forwards (like a 541 over a 4231). If you're playing a 4231 (four attacking players) including a poacher who basically does nothing until the ball is played into him in a goal scoring position, you're probably better off trying to attack and press high, rather than play more defensive. You may lose 5-3 instead of 4-0.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Jack722

[iMan]

2 hours ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Hi everyone

 

Just looking to ask as to WHY gegenpress is so successful in FM?

Just in terms of, what does it do to the opposition that makes it so effective?

I dont set up gegenpress style tactics generally, but in my experience im equally successful using gegenpress styles as I am with a more mid block defensive style, and in all honesty i prefer defending in a compact 442 mid or low block shape.

What are you doing with the gegenpress set up that makes it so effective?

Id be quite interested (just for once) to try and play as a low team and exploit the game, to see what its like to overachieve so badly

 

Thanks

Because you are playing against a very limited and stupid AI and have an ME were players stats aren't the most important aspect when comes to a tactics success, the only thing SI could do in response to complaints of it being OP was to make players tire quicker

[smajliss]

Other preset tactic needs quit a lot of thinking. But Gegenpress is just plug and play. Thats why i never use it and i would recommend everyone to avoid it also :-)

[_mxrky]

Defenders lack composure to play through the press unless you have players who are absolutely world class. Even then they are liable to boot the ball

[Prepper_Jack]

It's not just the pressing that makes gegenpress powerful, but also the relentless extreme tempo, which will frequently catch opposition defenders out of position if they too are attempting to hard press their way into possession. The more defenders are out of position, the less likely they are to be to perform necessary interceptions and ultimately shot blocking. This can create a lot of chances.

Gegenpress isn't a cure-all, or plug and play system, however. If you have a lot of players on your squad with only mediocre stamina, they can be less effective in this than they would be in some other system. They just cannot handle the intensity of this approach to a decent standard, and will have more inaccurate passing, and be more inaccurate in their shots on goal. Furthermore, as the game winds down further into the final half, they'll become much less capable in general, and be reluctant to expend their energy in any fashion.

Also, if you're trying to run a team that does well for itself on a budget, absolutely forget about it. The rate of injuries will be just too high to manage. There are other, more patient approaches if you want to play a control possession game that can be quite successful, even against a gegenpress. If your players aren't exhausting themselves chasing after the opposition in defense, you can do quite well in defense, and then edge them in offense by more clinical finishing.

[CARRERA]

On 25/11/2021 at 14:08, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Just looking to ask as to WHY gegenpress is so successful in FM?

Because even bad players are way too accurate when playing high intense football. 

IRL not every team has the physics, mentals and technical ability to do so, that’s the bottleneck but in FM any team can execute a Gegenpress.

i know the explanation is boring but that’s it. Simple. And that’s exactly what FM wants to be a sandbox where everything is possible.

Edited November 26, 2021 by CARRERA

[fraudiola]

8 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Defenders lack composure to play through the press unless you have players who are absolutely world class. Even then they are liable to boot the ball

this. threshold for clearances is too low in FM plus mediocre players being able to press relentlessly. unrealistic choice of pass from players. overall unrealistic method of playing out the back, even with elite players trying to play out of a high press a lot of times players ignore the obvious choice (this doesn't just apply to passing out the back). 

also something else i've noticed that makes a difference is your relative club rank. with similar players at both clubs, using the same tactic, i couldn't play out the back with the lower rep club whereas at the larger rep club i had no problem. even players with a lot lower attributes required to play out the back at the larger rep club had absolutely no problem playing against a high press. 

you can half ass a high press tactic and it'll be fairly effective. 

[Cult of Football Manager]

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Because even bad players are way too accurate when playing high intense football. 

IRL not every team has the physics, mentals and technical ability to do so, that’s the bottleneck but in FM any team can execute a Gegenpress.

i know the explanation is boring but that’s it. Simple. And that’s exactly what FM wants to be a sandbox where everything is possible.

To the OP Pressing or just simply gegenpressing ? 

 

If we're talking pressing I'm on a similar thought path to this. In possession players don't make enough mistakes when passing the ball especially in the middle and final third. This then means playing a low block doesn't give you the rewards it might do in real life and actually just causes unnecessary good chances being created against you. Lots of the best defensive tactics on the game over the years are normally still pretty aggressive in set up and normally press high.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager

[CARRERA]

18 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

To the OP Pressing or just simply gegenpressing ? 

It was related to high intense football, which is what "gegenpress tactics" usually are. does that make sense?!

 

21 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

If we're talking pressing I'm on a similar thought path to this. In possession players don't make enough mistakes when passing the ball especially in the middle and final third. This then means playing a low block doesn't give you the rewards it might do in real life and actually just causes unnecessary good chances being created against you. Lots of the best defensive tactics on the game over the years are normally still pretty aggressive in set up and normally press high.

I completely agree on that and its not only passing for example, but also how capable players are of getting the ball under control. That seems also very much de-linked from real life. But anyway, it remains a game and i understand that every team needs to be able to play a tiki-taka or gegenpress style to satisfy the customer needs. And its up to us players to pick a style that reflects the capabilities of our team and not just for the win (if we are looking for an immersive experience).

[Outsider23]

It is definitely the high line of engagement. The match engine AI seems to be ridiculously conservative when playing out from the back. Even players unsuited to a high press can panic talented ball playing defenders into quick clearances, particularly from goal kicks.

On the other hand if you manage to recruit a goal keeper with excellent distribution you can turn the monster into a joke. It is hard to exaggerate how satisfying and cathartic it is to watch your keeper easily bypass the front line of the stupid 4-2-3-1 gegenpress and then watch the opposition panic.

[Mitja]

Higher mentality and high tempo. Simple as that.