Help needed with my AMC in a 4231

[yorkie87]

Struggling to get good ratings out of my AMC in a 4231. Play a balanced style, shorter passing, focus play through centre, look for overlap on right and left, pass Into space, normal width and play out of defence. Played around with advanced playmaker and attacking midfielder in support and attacking. Not getting much joy. Any help appreciated. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by yorkie87

[Experienced Defender]

Post a screenshot of the tactic (with all roles, duties and instructions). You can give a player a role that "ideally" suits him, but if that role does not fit in with the rest of your tactic, it's not going to work. 

[Hootieleece]

Does your AMC have good vision and passing?

It would be good to see the player your using Attributes and PPM's as well as the tactic, roles, duties, and instructions.

[Miravlix]

In FM20, the position of the AMC, even if you use someone like Messi that has come deep to get the ball, result in the AMC on pitch position being to far into the defenders, for him to really be anything else than a striker.

 

If you design the tactics around an STL striker and AMCR "deep striker" that seems to be the best you can get out of AMC's.

 

Through in the case of high passing, decision making and vision players like Messi, you can get insane performance out of using them in MC instead. I managed to get consistently 9.0 scores from Messi played as MC up until the season he retired. I got next to nothing out of him as an AMC (But that was before I started thinking of AMC as a deep striker.). AML naturally result in Messi scoring more goals, but it also result in those 6.3 games, where he is a waste of space on the pitch, but in MC he never have bad games and is consistently carrying the rest of the team.

 

I just don't see a way to make a tactics where MC/Defenders pass the ball to an AMC that then create a chance for forwards, because of the position of the AMC player. If you are playing with AMC's you need MC's and defenders to be the creative players.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Miravlix

[Johnny Ace]

Which role are you talking about @Miravlix? If I understand what you're saying, I find the opposite & an AMC on support will sit too deep, if you line up 4-2-3-1 with the 3 being on support duty, he'll be the deepest of the 3, even going as far back as FM15 this is the case so it's something that hasn't been changed over the years & is working as intended

I'm playing FM18 right now & from this screenshot you can see, the left winger is on Attack, Fekir is the AM(S) & Robben is the IF(S) out on the right. Tolisso on the ball is DLP(S)   

Fekir was MOM last game was an assist & 8 key passes 

 

Anyway, sorry OP, get you tactic posted up so we can have a look 

 

Seconds after I posted that he overlaps Muller, gets into the box & scores  

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Johnny Ace

[yorkie87]

 

Thanks for your help

Edited January 5, 2020 by yorkie87

[Miravlix]

I've played with AMC's most years, because I tended to build my teams around Dybala, but in FM20 even with Messi as AMC, the MC's behind him just ignore him and never pass the ball to him. So I ended up with AML + AMC + AMR all standing on the edge of the box, with the defenders on top of them, so the only option was long shots or wing backs. Losing four of my players resulted in rather lackluster performances against defensive team.

 

Though the ME in FM20 seems troubled, so an Attacking, Pass Into Space, Shorter Passing with high decision making players result in the majority of goals being from through balls, making it moot how much the opposition defend, because most goals is based on bypassing defenders completely. I'm hoping that SI will consider the throughballs a flaw, so I'm trying to plan for the day I actually have to score goals after the opposition players has all run back to stand in their box.

[Johnny Ace]

20 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

 

Thanks for your help

Okay, there's plenty of nopes there for me in creating a balanced, sensible tactic 

Both Wingers on Attack, both Wing Backs on Support, Dribble More, Overlaps, two BPD's, two playmakers in close proximity, Focus through the middle, Higher Lines, Counter, I just can't get my head around it all   

[BigV]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Okay, there's plenty of nopes there for me in creating a balanced, sensible tactic 

Both Wingers on Attack, both Wing Backs on Support, Dribble More, Overlaps, two BPD's, two playmakers in close proximity, Focus through the middle, Higher Lines, Counter, I just can't get my head around it all   

I can asnwer this pretty well.

Balanced is due to the awful use of mentality, balanced allows you to fulfil what you want through roles where as the others make it counter what people want e.g.positive is said to be attacking and any defensive roles is useful but counter what you want.

Modern football allows for wingbacks more than full backs these days even with "wingers" although WB imo should be full backs on support or IWB's. 

Dribble more is fine if he has technical players, overlaps is an awful TI if roles permitt it. 2 BPD's is fine, especially if he has a DLP-D/S. 2 playmakers aren't close but the GAME says they are, the CAM drops low into the midfield rather than find the spaces inbetween the lines. 

Middle play is trying to involve the CAM and higherLOE and counter is fine. 

[Experienced Defender]

43 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

Well, as I supposed, the problem is your tactic as a whole, not the AMC himself (although we don't know the player, so he might also be a problem, but that's another pair of shoes).

First, you have a lot of needless instructions (tactical overkill). I would immediately remove the following: focus through the middle, overlap left and right and more urgent pressing. I would also drop the LOE to standard instead of higher, in order to achieve better compactness when defending (especially as you use a top-heavy formation such as 4231).

Run at defence is probably also not necessary, but given that I don't know your players, I cannot tell you if the instruction makes sense or not in this particular case. Anyway, I would still rather remove it than keep it.

Pass into space is a type of instruction that should be used situationally, rather than as part of a regular (starting) tactic. 

In terms of roles and duties, not only that your flanks are very one-dimensional, but also defensively very vulnerable with both wide forwards on attack duty. 

Then you have 2 playmakers (DLP and AP) in close vicinity. 

Therefore - taking all that into account - attacking-wise, there is almost no variety in the way you are playing.

Btw, AF as a lone striker tends to struggle when played in control and/or possession-oriented systems, due to the lack of space for him to operate within. It makes (a lot) more sense in counter-attacking tactics, that employ a lower LOE and less aggressive style of defending overall (among other things). 

I hope these observations will help you create a more balanced tactic that would also lead to your AMC performing better. If you have any additional questions, or would like me to give you an example of how you could set up a tactic, you are welcome 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Experienced Defender

[Miravlix]

AMC seems to have a use defensively that I didn't think of, it help's by putting a player in that part of the pitch in a high press tactics, that otherwise leaves a hole.

 

I changed a 4-2-4 Wide to a 4-2-3-1 Wide Asymmetric STL AMCR and played the match at full and the opposition was mid league team that thought playing a cautious 4-2-3-1 Wide against us was okay, My striker proved them wrong by getting a hattrick in the first few minutes of the match.  The AMC did seem rather disappointing as a passing/creative player, the curse that result in the other players avoiding to pass to the AMC seems to still be in effect, even while this was against a fairly open team, that left the AMC standing in not entirely covered positions. Only pass to him so far is one where my MC and AMC collided (if the game had collisions), so he wasn't really needed in that position.

 

The position

seems to contribute something valuable to a pressing tactics.

doesn't seem to contribute much to the creative/passing play.

it did score our 5th goal and kinda scored the 6th, but it ended up being an assist because the striker stole it, by deflecting the ball so little I had to check  3 times to see why the wrong player was credited with the goal. (So a Deep Striker)

 

 

It was the Domestic Cup Final, so not a "normal" match, resulting in the opposition actually trying to play.

 

[yorkie87]

On 05/01/2020 at 13:56, Experienced Defender said:

Well, as I supposed, the problem is your tactic as a whole, not the AMC himself (although we don't know the player, so he might also be a problem, but that's another pair of shoes).

First, you have a lot of needless instructions (tactical overkill). I would immediately remove the following: focus through the middle, overlap left and right and more urgent pressing. I would also drop the LOE to standard instead of higher, in order to achieve better compactness when defending (especially as you use a top-heavy formation such as 4231).

Run at defence is probably also not necessary, but given that I don't know your players, I cannot tell you if the instruction makes sense or not in this particular case. Anyway, I would still rather remove it than keep it.

Pass into space is a type of instruction that should be used situationally, rather than as part of a regular (starting) tactic. 

In terms of roles and duties, not only that your flanks are very one-dimensional, but also defensively very vulnerable with both wide forwards on attack duty. 

Then you have 2 playmakers (DLP and AP) in close vicinity. 

Therefore - taking all that into account - attacking-wise, there is almost no variety in the way you are playing.

Btw, AF as a lone striker tends to struggle when played in control and/or possession-oriented systems, due to the lack of space for him to operate within. It makes (a lot) more sense in counter-attacking tactics, that employ a lower LOE and less aggressive style of defending overall (among other things). 

I hope these observations will help you create a more balanced tactic that would also lead to your AMC performing better. If you have any additional questions, or would like me to give you an example of how you could set up a tactic, you are welcome 

Thank you. I’ve made a few tweaks. Just out of interest why drop the more urgent pressing? 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, yorkie87 said:

Just out of interest why drop the more urgent pressing?

Primarily in order to maintain more solid defensive shape. With higher DL and LOE (plus the Prevent short GKD), your manner of defending is already aggressive enough. Plus, the fact that you use a top-heavy formation without a DM (4231) makes the defensive risk even bigger. If you want to put more pressure on the opposition during their attacking build-ups, a split block is a lot safer option than telling the entire team to press more. However, if you decide to go with the split block, I would suggest you remove the Prevent short GKD and also drop the LOE slighty (to standard instead of higher). Tactical balance is key, both when attacking and defending.

[yorkie87]

I have removed pass into space, overlaps, focus through middle, lowered LOE and DL, prevent short GKD, put right winger on support and striker as DLF attack. Bit reluctant to do the changes as been winning everything but that’s probably more down to my squad being amazing as I’m like 16 seasons into the game. 
should I change the DLP to a CM-d? 
would you suggest to stay with a balanced mentality or look to change that too? 
again, Thanks for your help. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by yorkie87

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

lowered LOE and DL

Who said that you should lower DL? 

 

19 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

Bit reluctant to do the changes as been winning everything

If you've been "winning everything" with your original tactic, then you shouldn't have changed it at all. I thought you started the thread because your tactic was not working. There is no reason to change an otherwise successful tactic only to get better ratings for a single player. Even though I personally don't like the tactic you posted here, the only thing that's important is whether it produces good results for you or not. Everything else is irrelevant IMHO.

[Miravlix]

I'm using 5 star players and no one works in AMC position,not Messi or anyone else I tried.

 

ST AML AMC AMR MC MC DL DC DC DR and the AMC keeps getting 6.0 - 6.5 scores unless the player scores, the AMC just isn't contributing anything to general play, no key passes, no assists, most of the time a MC and the AMC end up on top of each other pre-box play and the other players just doesn't pass the ball to the AMC that often, making it a wasted man on the pitch.

 

While I personally think a 4-2-4 Wide seems like it should be tactically icky, it at least get all the players firing and contributing resulting in good score for all players, Changing one ST to an AMC seems make the entire team have problems. It just change position and passes of players, resulting in it being much harder to create chances and win.

 

I can't tactically see the difference between a AML ST ST AMR vs AML ST AMC AMR front line, except the AMC one seems to be a slightly better defensive formation and I feel the AMC offensively get in better positions than when he was a ST, but it just doesn't result in good performance.

 

Maybe the AML/AMR is the problem or using double DM's instead of double MC's, but I don't have the players to test that change, also I play at a level that result in all teams playing some type of defensive football against us, it could be the AMC simply drown against a defensive team.

[Gee_Simpson]

4 hours ago, Miravlix said:

I'm using 5 star players and no one works in AMC position,not Messi or anyone else I tried.

 

ST AML AMC AMR MC MC DL DC DC DR and the AMC keeps getting 6.0 - 6.5 scores unless the player scores, the AMC just isn't contributing anything to general play, no key passes, no assists, most of the time a MC and the AMC end up on top of each other pre-box play and the other players just doesn't pass the ball to the AMC that often, making it a wasted man on the pitch.

 

While I personally think a 4-2-4 Wide seems like it should be tactically icky, it at least get all the players firing and contributing resulting in good score for all players, Changing one ST to an AMC seems make the entire team have problems. It just change position and passes of players, resulting in it being much harder to create chances and win.

 

I can't tactically see the difference between a AML ST ST AMR vs AML ST AMC AMR front line, except the AMC one seems to be a slightly better defensive formation and I feel the AMC offensively get in better positions than when he was a ST, but it just doesn't result in good performance.

 

Maybe the AML/AMR is the problem or using double DM's instead of double MC's, but I don't have the players to test that change, also I play at a level that result in all teams playing some type of defensive football against us, it could be the AMC simply drown against a defensive team.

What role are you using the AMC in?

[BigV]

8 hours ago, Miravlix said:

MC and the AMC end up on top of each other pre-box play and the other players just doesn't pass the ball to the AMC that often, making it a wasted man on the pitch

This is the games fault, before 19 this was fine I think, especilly in 17, worked like a normal CAM should.

I may have a solution though, maybe try putting your CM's to DM positions so you have a DLP-D/Defensive mid (the lower/defensive minded player) next to a another role like a segundo volate or a role that pushes them higher up. I've never tried it myself but it makes sense as there's a bigger gap in midfield so maybe your CAM will get more involved. Maybe test this for a couple of games or make another save and test it. 

Most cm's can go into defensive midfield which may show up yellow or red but it's worth a try, the colour matching isn't always right. A few streamers use players on opposite wings and it works when it's on yellow or red as the role so don't always make it about them, but do make sure to test it. 

[Miravlix]

On 09/01/2020 at 07:50, Gee_Simpson said:

What role are you using the AMC in?

 

I tend to focus on AM/S and AP/S, even threw in an AM/A, but that tend to conflict with my players PPM's.

 

Messi got old so I used Enganche as it seems like the perfect role for an aging player. (Though he is carrying the entire team at 36 as an AP/S MC record breaking seasonal score for him.)

 

I don't think I've used T and Shadow much, I want all my players to be defenders, so T isn't really part of my playbook and I think I've made a mistake in not focusing/testing on the shadow striker, it might be the role that would check all the boxes I want filled tactically.

 

First Shadow Striker test resulted in a 6-6 away draw (I did change back to 4-2-4 Wide because I felt something was off, but that was most likely to late as the opposition had to much confidence at that point.), the Shadow Striker got 5 goals, his striking partner (Lottin) got 6.2 score and was useless. Watching the position of the shadow striker he is basically playing like a ST offensively but is better positioned defensively, so that doesn't explain why my team that has an amazing defensive record suddenly can't defend because I move one ST to the AMC position. Not like the change should have ruined the back fours ability to play.

 

I think those six goals is more goal than the entire rest of the league has scored against us, so it was a completely and utterly horrendous result.

 

Oh yeah and my B team also defensively imploded with this tactics and lost 2-1.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Miravlix

[ahmed.sg]

Just a forums rules question: I have the same issue basically. Is it better to create a separate thread so as not to hijack OPs (since our tactics are obviously not identical so the solutions suggested might be different) or is that considered spam because a similar topic is already available and I should just post a screenshot of my tactic here? Thanks all in advance. 

[BigV]

10 minutes ago, ahmed.sg said:

Just a forums rules question: I have the same issue basically. Is it better to create a separate thread so as not to hijack OPs (since our tactics are obviously not identical so the solutions suggested might be different) or is that considered spam because a similar topic is already available and I should just post a screenshot of my tactic here? Thanks all in advance. 

Do a new thread simply cause it's direct to you. 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, ahmed.sg said:

Just a forums rules question: I have the same issue basically. Is it better to create a separate thread so as not to hijack OPs (since our tactics are obviously not identical so the solutions suggested might be different) or is that considered spam because a similar topic is already available and I should just post a screenshot of my tactic here? Thanks all in advance. 

Better create a separate thread 

[ahmed.sg]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Better create a separate thread 

 

3 hours ago, BigV said:

Do a new thread simply cause it's direct to you. 

Thanks both. Will do.

[yorkie87]

Still trying to find a role I’m happy with in this position. Could someone please tell me What difference does an attacking mentality for a AMC have to that of him having a balanced mentality? I’m thinking in terms of the attacking mid/ advanced playmaker role and the difference between attack and support duty. Is it more forward runs? More direct passes? Etc. 
Many thanks. 

[BigV]

36 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

Still trying to find a role I’m happy with in this position. Could someone please tell me What difference does an attacking mentality for a AMC have to that of him having a balanced mentality? I’m thinking in terms of the attacking mid/ advanced playmaker role and the difference between attack and support duty. Is it more forward runs? More direct passes? Etc. 
Many thanks. 

I'll sort this in 2 ways:

ADV Playmaker- Someone who gets on the ball and is actively looking to thread the ball and support attacking players while in CAM. Support- They stay in the hole and are always looking to pass to wide players /striker. Attack- They operate in the CAM area but this time they can move further up, dribble and occassionally help the striker with darting runs or by moving into areas. 

Attack mid- These are players that all around have a good game and ability to move the ball forward and comeback when needed. Most CAM's these days are usually attacking mids due to the mordern physical football that we see due to defensive tactical plans. Support- Gives the same feeling as a playmaker however they dont always demand the ball, they are usually good as moving off the ball and using their pace from deep, they stay in the hole to offer an outlet to play the ball to them and move it around as well as support attacks. Attack- These a usually great at dribbling, scoring and using their pace to move the ball up, someone like a maddison, grealish type player who attack and support wide players or strikers and get involved further up, they offer a more direct approach running at teams.

The general approach is how you want to play. For a defensive team/counter attacking, having an attacking midfielder would be suitable over a playmaker in CAM simply because they drag the ball upwards rather than pass it (more direct). What's your formation, what's your tactics. Playing a controlling manner would mean you want to keep the ball as much as possible and create, thats where playmakers come in as they keep the ball and move it around. Depending on games thats when yu should use support or attack. Losing a game and wanna try and win? go attack, winning but also want more goals? attack, wanna play keeping the ball? support, losing the ball too much? use support. 

[jozza800]

On 05/01/2020 at 14:25, Miravlix said:

I've played with AMC's most years, because I tended to build my teams around Dybala, but in FM20 even with Messi as AMC, the MC's behind him just ignore him and never pass the ball to him. So I ended up with AML + AMC + AMR all standing on the edge of the box, with the defenders on top of them, so the only option was long shots or wing backs. Losing four of my players resulted in rather lackluster performances against defensive team.

 

Though the ME in FM20 seems troubled, so an Attacking, Pass Into Space, Shorter Passing with high decision making players result in the majority of goals being from through balls, making it moot how much the opposition defend, because most goals is based on bypassing defenders completely. I'm hoping that SI will consider the throughballs a flaw, so I'm trying to plan for the day I actually have to score goals after the opposition players has all run back to stand in their box.

I know this is few months old - but are you saying that you got these through balls from an AP in the midfield strata or the Am strata because I'm having the same issues with APs just behind the striker like others in this thread. 

DLps will churn out 8+ ratings all season but can I get anything from an AP! 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Experienced Defender
inappropriate word

[scwiffy]

Just wanted to pickup on the subsequent discussion here about AMCs underperforming in 4231 and say I've finally been having some success with this position in this formation with a Trq. I think many rule it our due to the in-game discription about not defending but I find he does okay in that regard and more importantly is a decent creative outelt up top during transition. Its early days but so far the differences have been night and day compared to any of the other roles

[Gee_Simpson]

46 minutes ago, scwiffy said:

Just wanted to pickup on the subsequent discussion here about AMCs underperforming in 4231 and say I've finally been having some success with this position in this formation with a Trq. I think many rule it our due to the in-game discription about not defending but I find he does okay in that regard and more importantly is a decent creative outelt up top during transition. Its early days but so far the differences have been night and day compared to any of the other roles

Interesting. I may try this out. I find my AMC plays well anyway but I'll definitely consider this.

[Britrock]

Getting AMCs to be wildly productive is difficult because a lot of teams play DMs that play in the same area of the pitch and condense the space in the middle of the pitch, meaning players are constantly looking to the wings instead of going through the middle becasue that's where the space is. The important thing is to make sure that they have space within your team though - check the average positions with the ball for the starting 11 and make sure your AMC doesn't have your striker or MCs sat on top of him restricting his space to operate.

[scwiffy]

2 hours ago, Britrock said:

Getting AMCs to be wildly productive is difficult because a lot of teams play DMs that play in the same area of the pitch and condense the space in the middle of the pitch, meaning players are constantly looking to the wings instead of going through the middle becasue that's where the space is. The important thing is to make sure that they have space within your team though - check the average positions with the ball for the starting 11 and make sure your AMC doesn't have your striker or MCs sat on top of him restricting his space to operate.

Yes thats why I always want a Mezzalla or RPM type of role there, I want them to be a really dynamic or at least much more aggressive going forward, the SS is the closet thing but I don't want them dribbling so much and want them to break the D-line more than that role offers. Also despite the SS high attacking Mentality I don't find they offer much of a transitional outlet, I think its a role geared more towards narrow formations (AMC-ST-AMC) or strikerless (even in strikerless i find it isn't aggressive enough).

Anyway, I'm having great success so far with Treq (after 4 games) so fingers crossed. He offers a fantastic outlet high up the pitch before the striker when we win the ball, I'm also finding he's surprisingly aggressive in his movement despite in-game description of sitting in the hole - which is great for me. I don't think I've ever used the role in that position before (I haven't had to as previously AMs+APs worked well/better) so watching and learning is really exciting for me.

[BigV]

5 hours ago, Britrock said:

Getting AMCs to be wildly productive is difficult because a lot of teams play DMs that play in the same area of the pitch and condense the space in the middle of the pitch, meaning players are constantly looking to the wings instead of going through the middle becasue that's where the space is. The important thing is to make sure that they have space within your team though - check the average positions with the ball for the starting 11 and make sure your AMC doesn't have your striker or MCs sat on top of him restricting his space to operate.

I always find that the avg positions dont relate to what we see in game at all, the heat map is usually the main one I look at, constantly see the MC's near the AMC so they just pass it and if they lose it well, its likely to conceed by a counter. 

[scwiffy]

Okay heres the tactic I'm using that has been getting much more productive results for my AMC in a 4231. Using the Treq role means he is higher up when out of possession and a consistent outlet when we win possession back lower down the field, this means he sees much more of the ball and makes transitions and counters much more dangerous, as a pose to AM/AP which come waaay too deep. That deep positioning is nothing new to FM2020 but being far less productive/dangerous higher up the pitch is. Higher up the pitch the Treq is a perfect hybrid between an AP-a and a SS, getting into the box more that the in-game description. Now all of this might be due to the combination of other roles (which is why I uploaded a screenshot of my entire tactic), Personally I feel you could combine the Treq with any forward roles (ST/AML/AMR), but having deeper lying playmakers definitely helps the Trq, I think its something to do with opening up the space in the middle or the general distance between CM and AM stratas which would previously be too close or even intertwined. In this screen shot I have a RPM and a CM-s but I usually have the CM-d as a DLP-d/s, it sounds like playmaker overkill but its causing havoc in the Portuguese league and Europa cup (currently in 2nd and in final).

 

I hope this somehow helps others in a similar predicament

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by scwiffy
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