Ajax – When The Real World Meets Football Manager FM14

[razielr]

Anticipation isn't vital for keepers so there isn't really a way to train it.

So if I find that he is reacting very slowly to plays in the box, especially when the opponent makes a pass or cross across the goal or at set pieces, what are the areas I need to focus on? I mean his positioning, concentration, decisions are already 17 so I thought that its an anticipation issue.

Also he rushes out alot, which is intended but the average striker still seems to shoot pass him while he appears to just continue running forward instead of trying to make a stop. Is this an anticipation issue?

I'll post the screens of Ioannou later, he didnt have injuries longer than 6 month but alot of shorter injuries when it just drops his acceleration straight down at the onset, at 21, not sure if there any way to get his physicals up

[Cleon]

So if I find that he is reacting very slowly to plays in the box, especially when the opponent makes a pass or cross across the goal or at set pieces, what are the areas I need to focus on? I mean his positioning, concentration, decisions are already 17 so I thought that its an anticipation issue.

Is he actually reacting slowly or getting out muscled? It could be a case he isn't strong enough to go through a crowd of players to get the ball due to low strength. He also lacks pace/acceleration so isn't the quickest player to get off his line. While his rushing out is quite high he doesn't have the pace and acceleration to match it, all 3 of those work in tandem with each other.

It doesn't hurt to have higher anticipation (that comes with age and playing) but it's not one of the vital attributes especially for someone so young. It's rare you'll find a young keeper with high anticipation this is normally a attribute found in older worldclass keepers. There are only 3 keepers with an attribute of 15 or more in my entire game who are under 26.

[razielr]

Its a case of slow reaction, he takes too long to turn and face the ball when it gets passed across goal.

Speed is never a problem, he rushing out is great - he get the crosses, through balls and unlike my previous backup, he picks his rushes very well and doesn't get lobbed or rush out only to let the opponent pass sideways for another to finish into an empty net. Thing is with 19 reflexes, 16 one on ones and agility, I don't understand why he does even attempt to make a save but just keeps running straight at the striker.

If only time can get his anticipation up, what would be the best attributes to work on for a young keeper under these circumstances?

[davehibb]

Hi Cleon,

I still keep revisiting this thread (and many others ) and you said somewhere that you don't pay too much attention to star ratings when looking at youngsters to bring in. How far does this go? And are there any 'tells' that a youngster might be a ton better than his rating? I guess this goes for existing youth players at the club also.

If you have a guy who has 1 star potential but has decent attributes for his age to suite a specific role you might have in mind for him, would you take a flyer on him anyway or is it a case that with having so little scouted ability, he's not likely to improve much further and that what you see is what you get, even at a young age?

And something I have wondered for many versions and I think it's something the Italian guy in your Sheff Utd save illustrates, can you regularly drag a guy like that up through the ranks and turn an average League One player into an international calibre player? Can a players 'ceiling' increase over time,given game experience, training?

Are 1 or 2 star guys simply that? Or can they become 4 star guys given the correct training and enough first team experience?

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

I still keep revisiting this thread (and many others ) and you said somewhere that you don't pay too much attention to star ratings when looking at youngsters to bring in. How far does this go? And are there any 'tells' that a youngster might be a ton better than his rating? I guess this goes for existing youth players at the club also.

Have you read this thread I did as I explain in here especially the last few replies in the thread;

Meet The Inside Forward - Alan Spencer

If you have a guy who has 1 star potential but has decent attributes for his age to suite a specific role you might have in mind for him, would you take a flyer on him anyway or is it a case that with having so little scouted ability, he's not likely to improve much further and that what you see is what you get, even at a young age?

I try and play realistic so try and develop everyone to be the best player they can be. I base any judgement on attributes and what I want from the player.

And something I have wondered for many versions and I think it's something the Italian guy in your Sheff Utd save illustrates, can you regularly drag a guy like that up through the ranks and turn an average League One player into an international calibre player? Can a players 'ceiling' increase over time,given game experience, training?

PA is set and cannot change. Not everyone will make the grade but if you make sure someone gets good ratings, goals, assists etc then they have a chance of being called up to international duty when playing in a successful team and winning things.

Are 1 or 2 star guys simply that? Or can they become 4 star guys given the correct training and enough first team experience?

A lot of people don't fully understand what star ratings mean or how they are given, you should read this

http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/players/player-ability-and-performance#ability-star-ratings

:)

[davehibb]

Thanks for the links Cleon.

I did read over the Alan Spencer thread yesterday and I get where you are coming from in terms of indentifying a young guy and his skillset to fit into the system you are playing, even if it means retraining his position.

I think his scouted rating was high to begin with so you had a lot to work with in terms of spare points for development though? I was more wondering about doing this kind of thing with him if he had a 1 star rating but decent balance, agility, pace, dribbling etc.?

I guess it's possible, albeit unlikely? If I understand correctly (and I probably don't ), you could say take a guy with that skillset and little scouted potential but still train him up with the bare minimum of abilities required to fulfill his role in the team? Making a silk purse out of a pigs ear if you will?

Again I might be wrong but do non-relevant abilities decrease as trained abilities increase when a player reaches his PA? So a guy could have 1's in long throws, positioning, penalties, free kicks and tackling etc. but have 18+ in dribbling, first touch, finishing, balance and agility for example?

Extreme scenario maybe but I'm curious.

[Falahk]

Hi Cleon,

I still keep revisiting this thread (and many others ) and you said somewhere that you don't pay too much attention to star ratings when looking at youngsters to bring in. How far does this go? And are there any 'tells' that a youngster might be a ton better than his rating? I guess this goes for existing youth players at the club also.

If you have a guy who has 1 star potential but has decent attributes for his age to suite a specific role you might have in mind for him, would you take a flyer on him anyway or is it a case that with having so little scouted ability, he's not likely to improve much further and that what you see is what you get, even at a young age?

And something I have wondered for many versions and I think it's something the Italian guy in your Sheff Utd save illustrates, can you regularly drag a guy like that up through the ranks and turn an average League One player into an international calibre player? Can a players 'ceiling' increase over time,given game experience, training?

Are 1 or 2 star guys simply that? Or can they become 4 star guys given the correct training and enough first team experience?

what it says under the star rating is a lot more important, anyway I already made a post on this before in this thread so I will quote it here:

Buying youth players/finding the right deal

Since there have been the odd question of what to look for when singing youth players, here goes my take on it. First of we have tendency attributes that are hard/impossible to train (like bravery, aggression, flair, rushing out, eccentricity etc) if I feel the player need any of these attributes for the role I intend him to play them in it will be high up on my list, the secound one is my scouts opinion of the players potential compared to the league, this is listed just under the star rating (marked down with a red circle on the screen below), and it often tell way more about a players potential then the somewhat inaccurate star rating system, so I will be looking for players that are listed as having the potential to become a leading Serie A players (since I'm playing Roma on the save where the screen is from). The third one is price, do not waste absurd amounts on youth players that might not make it and save your cash for players who can slot into the first team, gamble on cheep players, if the deal does not work out, you will probably still make your money back ether in transfer fees or sell on clauses. the fourth thing to consider is: dont buy more youth players then you can develop and provide tutoring for, if you try to train to many players on the same time you will just end up with a lot of half finished products that will never make the first team

when this player arrived later that summer his star rating instantly jumped to 5 star, and have now changed to 4,5 as he have developed.....you will see more drastic jumps like this when you buy players from lower league teams or from top leagues with lower reputation then the one you play in

here is the current assistant report on the mentioned player:

[aderow]

Not a bad player he will become very good if you work on those mentals. I did a thread about training for FM12 which should help you with development on FM10, have you read it?

I might have. I'll look for it and give it a read though

[Cleon]

I might have. I'll look for it and give it a read though

Here is the link to save you searching

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/304750-Youth-Development-The-Guide

[davehibb]

@ Falahk - Thanks for the info.

[ashlfcowen]

When specifically training an attribute AND asking a player to train for a PPM would the increase on the attribute be least effective as he's doing two things rather than one?

[Cleon]

When specifically training an attribute AND asking a player to train for a PPM would the increase on the attribute be least effective as he's doing two things rather than one?

Doesn't really make a difference as all you do when specifically train an attribute is shift the focus onto that one to have more emphasis on it, he still trains the other ones too just to a lesser extent. So even when training a PPM the attribute will still see a higher focus on it compared to the others.

[ashlfcowen]

I'm currently set up as Barcelona because I've been out of touch with FM for a while now and I consider this to be my "learning" game, i.e. given the backbone of a great team already so I can start to learn more about the tactical side of things & player development. Not really sure why I'm explaining myself but I feel I have too ha. Anyway I recently signed this chap from Dortmund for £5.5M

I'm just about to start my second season and I have Iniesta tutoring him but over the next year I hope to rotate his training on a 2 month basis concentrating on; passing, tackling, technique, off the ball and positioning while concentrating on PPM's such as dictates tempo, plays short simple passes & tries killer balls. This and the odd game alongside Iniesta / Thiago / Xavi and I hope he can fullfill his potentional of becoming the next Bastian. Reckon he has the potential to make it? His low creativity and flair does worry me a little.

[Cleon]

I'm currently set up as Barcelona because I've been out of touch with FM for a while now and I consider this to be my "learning" game, i.e. given the backbone of a great team already so I can start to learn more about the tactical side of things & player development. Not really sure why I'm explaining myself but I feel I have too ha. Anyway I recently signed this chap from Dortmund for £5.5M

I'm just about to start my second season and I have Iniesta tutoring him but over the next year I hope to rotate his training on a 2 month basis concentrating on; passing, tackling, technique, off the ball and positioning while concentrating on PPM's such as dictates tempo, plays short simple passes & tries killer balls. This and the odd game alongside Iniesta / Thiago / Xavi and I hope he can fullfill his potentional of becoming the next Bastian. Reckon he has the potential to make it? His low creativity and flair does worry me a little.

Don't focus on OTB and positioning choose one of them. So if he is being used as a defensive player then he needs positioning. If he is to attack and be offensive then he needs OTB instead. Define the role you want him to have but unless he is a DMC positioning is wasted and if he is a DMC then he doesn't want OTB as its no real use.

[ashlfcowen]

I intend on him to take over the job of Xavi as DLP in a couple of years time so I will prioritise OTB - I'll keep you updated. Thanks.

[Justified]

Don't focus on OTB and positioning choose one of them. So if he is being used as a defensive player then he needs positioning. If he is to attack and be offensive then he needs OTB instead. Define the role you want him to have but unless he is a DMC positioning is wasted and if he is a DMC then he doesn't want OTB as its no real use.

Unless he's thinking of using him as a B2B player? He'd have to be a really big talent to do so though as it's a very demanding role.

[Justified]

I intend on him to take over the job of Xavi as DLP in a couple of years time so I will prioritise OTB - I'll keep you updated. Thanks.

tbh I'd go Technique -> Passing -> Agility for the first year .

[Cleon]

Unless he's thinking of using him as a B2B player? He'd have to be a really big talent to do so though as it's a very demanding role.

Focusing on both will just result in wasting a lot of the CA of the player because it costs twice as much for a defensive player to up his attacking attributes and vice versa. You'd still focus on one, he has more than enough to be able to do either role already with both positioning and OTB at 11 so that's is plenty for his secondary attribute.

[Cleon]

tbh I'd go Technique -> Passing -> Agility for the first year .

Agree with this. Imo it's vital you do this as early as possible as technique is vital for defining the player due to it being how good he is with the ball at his feet. Agility would restrict how he can turn and shift his body. The fact you plan to use him as a DLP already means he will need high agility to do this role effectively, without it being high he will be capped and limited to what he can actually do and will struggle to do something basic like turn fast or move to the side etc.

[Justified]

It is possible to have a good B2B player training both though. Here's one of my "old" talents. Not quite sure what the AI has done to him after he left me as he used to have higher composure but he played the box to box very well

[Cleon]

It is possible to have a good B2B player training both though. Here's one of my "old" talents. Not quite sure what the AI has done to him after he left me as he used to have higher composure but he played the box to box very well

Low physical attributes all round though He must have already had high positioning and OTB though to get both to 18? He's a decent player though

I didn't say it wasn't possible either to have both but it is a waste due to how the game defines attacking players and defensive players and then the attributes are weighted towards this. You can see this in your player where it's come at the cost of his physical attributes.

[Justified]

Low physical attributes all round though He must have already had high positioning and OTB though to get both to 18? He's a decent player though

I didn't say it wasn't possible either to have both but it is a waste due to how the game defines attacking players and defensive players and then the attributes are weighted towards this. You can see this in your player where it's come at the cost of his physical attributes.

Yeah hence why I sold him, he could never really get his physical ones the way I wanted them to go. Plus his low Natural Fitness meant he had niggling injuries all the while, very annoying. I honestly cannot remember how high his OTB and positioning was when I got him. I think positioning was around 13 and his OTB was around 11.

The "problem" I feel is that the central midfield role is quite demanding as you have to be quite decent in both attributes. Obviously more attacking MC's can have lower positioning, defensive can have lower OTB's but they are still quite important attributes for central midfielders.

[Gee_Simpson]

I don't know if you have covered this already Cleon, but do you manage your youth sides so you have control over their match prep or do you just leave it to the U19 manager?

[Cleon]

I don't know if you have covered this already Cleon, but do you manage your youth sides so you have control over their match prep or do you just leave it to the U19 manager?

I manage both when its a youth development save

[Gee_Simpson]

I manage both when its a youth development save

Ok, thanks

So, do you only play saves with the aim of developing youth sometimes?

[aderow]

Here is the link to save you searching

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/304750-Youth-Development-The-Guide

Thanks Cleon will definitely give it another read.

[Cleon]

Ok, thanks

So, do you only play saves with the aim of developing youth sometimes?

Yeah. My Sheff Utd save I had I didn't focus on youth development until 5th season so didn't take control of the team until then

[Gee_Simpson]

Yeah. My Sheff Utd save I had I didn't focus on youth development until 5th season so didn't take control of the team until then

Cheers

[davehibb]

Sincere apologies if this has been asked and answered previously (i'm sure it has somewhere) but is there a hard and fast guide to player position/role and applicable mental/physical attributes?

I've often thought things like off the ball and technique were something of a luxury and that agility and positioning was mainly for keepers.

I've since learned from this and other threads that technique actually does something, that positioning is a defensive trait and that agility matters most to attacking players than goalkeepers and that you'd like pretty much everyone to be strong. And what does balance really do?

Speaking of keepers, what attribute training combos would be best? And do people find them harder to develop than outfield players?

[Cleon]

Sincere apologies if this has been asked and answered previously (i'm sure it has somewhere) but is there a hard and fast guide to player position/role and applicable mental/physical attributes?

You can view while in the game what attributes are needed for positions.

I've often thought things like off the ball and technique were something of a luxury and that agility and positioning was mainly for keepers.

OTB is vital for any attacking player and positioning is vital for any defensive player. And technique is one of the most important attributes as that's how good someone is with the ball.

I've since learned from this and other threads that technique actually does something, that positioning is a defensive trait and that agility matters most to attacking players than goalkeepers and that you'd like pretty much everyone to be strong. And what does balance really do?

Speaking of keepers, what attribute training combos would be best? And do people find them harder to develop than outfield players?

There is no best because every single player will need different attributes to be worked on. It's very rare you'll find two identical players who need the exact same training.

If you need a quick overview of the attributes to see what they do, then the online manual gives you a decent description to help you understand them.

http://www.footballmanager.com/manual/

[davehibb]

Thanks for the link to the manual Cleon. I tried looking in the FAQ unless I missed it. >_>

I tend to do most of my musing at work so no game access at the moment that's why I wondered if there was a thread dedicated to it. So i can read up at work, take notes and then use the spare time i have at home in game. >

Thanks as always though and I'm sure a lot of posts are a pain to reply to and whilst I do try and keep up with a number of your threads, all of which have helped tremendously, sometimes not all of it sticks and there's such a wealth of info sometimes it just gets overwhelming.

if it's any consolation though, I restarted an Ajax save and we're playing some very pleasing stuff atm,

[Cleon]

Thanks for the link to the manual Cleon. I tried looking in the FAQ unless I missed it. >_>

I tend to do most of my musing at work so no game access at the moment that's why I wondered if there was a thread dedicated to it. So i can read up at work, take notes and then use the spare time i have at home in game. >

Thanks as always though and I'm sure a lot of posts are a pain to reply to and whilst I do try and keep up with a number of your threads, all of which have helped tremendously, sometimes not all of it sticks and there's such a wealth of info sometimes it just gets overwhelming.

if it's any consolation though, I restarted an Ajax save and we're playing some very pleasing stuff atm,

No worries

I did a thread about attributes for FM11/12 that is still relevant and the attributes still work the same if you want to give it a read while working

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/289528-The-SI-Sports-Centre-All-You-Need-To-Know-About-FM

[razielr]

Low physical attributes all round though He must have already had high positioning and OTB though to get both to 18? He's a decent player though

I didn't say it wasn't possible either to have both but it is a waste due to how the game defines attacking players and defensive players and then the attributes are weighted towards this. You can see this in your player where it's come at the cost of his physical attributes.

Cleon, will playing a youngster in different roles like a defensive MC and AMC scatter his development? I sort of have a similar situation on my current save with Leon Goretzka, where he has ended up with above average attributes across board (almost at full potential) but nothing really outstanding.

In my earlier seasons I couldnt decide where to play him so he moved between MC(D) and AMC(A) alot. His training was focused on Agility, Quickness, Positioning, Tackling and Marking but alot of his development when into dribbling, finishing and off the ball if I'm not wrong.

[Cleon]

Cleon, will playing a youngster in different roles like a defensive MC and AMC scatter his development? I sort of have a similar situation on my current save with Leon Goretzka, where he has ended up with above average attributes across board (almost at full potential) but nothing really outstanding.

His development depends on how you train him. Playing him in different positions doesn't make a difference to development and how the attribute points are spent.

[razielr]

ah so it must have been the box to box role focus I used to develop his mental stats very early on then.

[Cleon]

Mental attributes rise with age too remember. But if technical attributes focused on the wrong kind of areas for what you wanted then it's more likely training is the real reason why

[aderow]

Just wanted to show you guys 2 of my youth players as I'm getting ready to start my new season.

First Michael Beattie:

This will be his 3rd season at the club and as you can see, he's been improving quite steadily. I'm really hoping he continues to improve as he's gonna get the chance to get into my first team sooner than I imagined he would. Darren Fletcher's starting to slow down a lot and the lad who's next in line to be in the first team just isn't improving mentally. So we shall see. As for his development, at this point all he needs is first team experience so I'm hoping to send him out on loan. Unfortunately he rejected the first set of loan offers that came in.

Next is Glenn Barnett.

I've got really high hopes for this kid. Very very good for his age. If he gets a bit of pace, gets stronger, and better in the air, he's gonna be a monster. He's currently being tutored by a member of the first team whose personality is professional.

As for my other player Andy Neal he's spending the season on loan at Preston who are back in the premier league. Interestingly enough, they've made it back into the premier league with the help of 3 of my youngsters who I sent there on loan. 2 of them have been moved on now. They did brilliantly in the championship, but just weren't good enough to get into the first team.

[zzeezzy]

Firstly, this is a great thread and really extremely helpful.

Just a few questions (sorry if they have been covered).

1) - Do you think at a club like Swansea for example where the facilities are average and no better. Is it worth waiting until I get these upgraded to good quality before I start training youngsters (Is there any particular standard level you require the facilities to be in order to effectively develop youth)?

2) - Regarding PPM's is there a right or wrong time to learn them, meaning obviously they are a big part of the game, but when training a youngster I don't want to harm their attribute development by getting them to learn PPM's at the same time. Do you usually wait until they are older or any specific approach you take? This also relates to senior players as well, is there any harm in changing their PPM's to getting them the way you want to play? (I don't think there would be with senior as their potential has been reached, but thought I'd ask anyway).

[Cleon]

1 - No try and train them how you want from the off. Doesn't make much sense waiting as you can still develop them quite some way towards what you want their end product to be.

2 - You wont harm attribute development learning a PPM at the same time. I like to learn players PPM's as soon as I can which is normally after the player has the correct personality type that I desire him to have. The sooner I can teach him the PPM the quicker he'll be able to play the way I want him too.

[axehan1]

Not a bad player he will become very good if you work on those mentals. I did a thread about training for FM12 which should help you with development on FM10, have you read it?

Hi Cleon, i've searched but couldn't find your fm12 training thread, could you link me to it please?

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon, i've searched but couldn't find your fm12 training thread, could you link me to it please?

I posted the thread in the reply after that. Check post 1319

[zzeezzy]

Hi Cleon,

I forgot to mention, do you know how I can access this about other clubs academies, I would like to read something similar to Ajax but for other clubs.

But this link does not work for me: - http://www.ecaeurope.com/Global/Rese...0Academies.pdf

Any other ideas where I can find out about other club academies from anywhere else?

[Cleon]

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Research/ECA%20Report%20on%20Youth%20Academies/ECA%20Report%20on%20Youth%20Academies.pdf

This works

[zzeezzy]

http://www.ecaeurope.com/Research/ECA%20Report%20on%20Youth%20Academies/ECA%20Report%20on%20Youth%20Academies.pdf

T

his works

Thank you

[zzeezzy]

So, Cleon, I would like your view, what would you do with Mr. Ross Barkley regarding training??

First thing I am thinking is to get him tutored because his personality is "Fairly Ambitious". Regarding attribute training I just can't decide... he is someone you could mould into a variety of roles and he would become a great player. I am looking at more of a Deep-Lying Playmaker style for him though, so opinions on training is welcome.

[lilljons]

Is there anyway to increase the chance, of tutored youngsters or via training, of successfully learning ppm's cleon? Roughly 1-2 out of 10 learn the ppm's in my current save. Frustrating.

What i mean, should i decrease the focus intensity or remove it? Skip position training when a player is learning a ppm?

[Riziger]

So, Cleon, I would like your view, what would you do with Mr. Ross Barkley regarding training??

First thing I am thinking is to get him tutored because his personality is "Fairly Ambitious". Regarding attribute training I just can't decide... he is someone you could mould into a variety of roles and he would become a great player. I am looking at more of a Deep-Lying Playmaker style for him though, so opinions on training is welcome.

I'm no cleon... but his positioning, tackling and marking seem a little low for a DLP, why not make use of his base talents like OTB, dribbling, passing, technique? Seems to me like he would already make a pretty good CM(A)

[zzeezzy]

I'm no cleon... but his positioning, tackling and marking seem a little low for a DLP, why not make use of his base talents like OTB, dribbling, passing, technique? Seems to me like he would already make a pretty good CM(A)

Thanks! Mainly because it wouldn't fit my tactic because my midfield roles are DLP and BWM. So it either means I'd have to rethink a formation/tactic or sell him. To good of a player though to let go, I still think he can become a good DLP he's still young don't forget. Or maybe even try him as a advanced playmaker?

[Cleon]

Thanks! Mainly because it wouldn't fit my tactic because my midfield roles are DLP and BWM. So it either means I'd have to rethink a formation/tactic or sell him. To good of a player though to let go, I still think he can become a good DLP he's still young don't forget. Or maybe even try him as a advanced playmaker?

He lacks teamwork/work rate to be a good DLP. While he is still young he should have better core attributes for the DLP role if that's what you want him to be imo. Teamwork, work rate, concentration, decisions are pretty awful yet are needed for any kind of demanding role.

[zzeezzy]

He lacks teamwork/work rate to be a good DLP. While he is still young he should have better core attributes for the DLP role if that's what you want him to be imo. Teamwork, work rate, concentration, decisions are pretty awful yet are needed for any kind of demanding role.

Thanks for the reply! Well, now I am in a quandary should I sell him if he does not fit my tactical roles slightly somehow adjust the tactic to have a role which can accomodate him within the side? From what I've read you tend to stick with your tactics rather than changing them to accomodate players right?