FM13 - Defenders, Wingers and Conceding from crosses.

[matty2323]

Before i start, yes i know its Beta, but a lot of people have been concerned with the ME and how poor defending is. I've seen plenty of examples of wingers beating their opponent and whipping in a delightful ball that lands of the head of their striker while the 6 defenders marking him suddenly forget to and just stand and watch. Its not the only fault as well, the amount of goals being scoring from impossible angles is quite high too, but more on that another time.

The most recent occurrence of poor defending was vs Man City, with Aguero hitting the line and crossing for Nasri to tap in at the back post. Setting the scene, my play broke down on the left flank, with Silva feeding in Aguero who got the better of Evra to create a crossing opportunity. As you can see in the first SS, as Aguero beats Evra, his options in the middle are very limited. 4 United defenders goal side, with 2 more tracking the runners.

Right now im confident of dealing with a cross (if i didnt know the ME). However, as Aguero proceeds to cross the ball, my defenders seem to stop on the 6 yard box, forming a line, while the keeper remains planted on his goal line.

As the ball proceeds to FLOATS across the box 3 yards out from goal, i notice all my defenders havent moved. With the initial position of the first defender, i would have thought the cross be cut out here. If it beat him, the second was lined up. However he proceeded to step up and away from his position(????). Then the goalkeeper hasnt come for it either. All of a sudden this boy is heading across the goal, towards the back post where the outside winger has got goal side of the 4 defenders marking the back post.

and finally.. boom. ball ends up in the net. Keeper hasn't moved, defenders are all "turning" and running towards the back post.

I just wanted to provide an example of what we're all seeing to those who dont have the game and want to discuss it. 2-3 goals per game get scored in this exact same fashion.

[Cleon]

The ME in the pre order beta is quite old and a lot of the annoying problems/bugs have already been fixed.

Was you Man Utd? Because if you are then you've set up very bad for defensive situations. I mean even with the few defensive faults in the beta just look at the positions of the Man Utd players and there is no-one tracking any of the City players, especially the ones from deep. Not everything you've posted in the screenshots is down to flaws and bugs. A lot of it is user created.

[Flohrinho]

The ME in the pre order beta is quite old and a lot of the annoying problems/bugs have already been fixed.

Was you Man Utd? Because if you are then you've set up very bad for defensive situations. I mean even with the few defensive faults in the beta just look at the positions of the Man Utd players and there is no-one tracking any of the City players, especially the ones from deep. Not everything you've posted in the screenshots is down to flaws and bugs. A lot of it is user created.

The thing is especially midfielders just flock up with the defensive line not caring where the other midfielders are or anyone else.

Neither man marking nor zonal marking makes them behave any better in that regard defending always seems to be just one big cluster **** no matter how you set these guys up or if you use DMs or CMs it's just a bunch of dudes holding a pow wow somewhere in their penalty box not caring what happens around them.

Of course it's not always like that, only when the opposition scores they seem to lose any orientation.

Not to mention the keepers as well, how often have I seen my keeper stumble around in random directions while the ball soared 2 inches over his head, it looks quite comical.

I hope we get to see a new build of the ME soon because this version just makes you want to bite into your keyboard when your defenders and keeper act like they work as clowns in a circus and not as football professionals for Manchester United.

[matty2323]

The ME in the pre order beta is quite old and a lot of the annoying problems/bugs have already been fixed.

Was you Man Utd? Because if you are then you've set up very bad for defensive situations. I mean even with the few defensive faults in the beta just look at the positions of the Man Utd players and there is no-one tracking any of the City players, especially the ones from deep. Not everything you've posted in the screenshots is down to flaws and bugs. A lot of it is user created.

simple 4-4-2. nothing special. my wingers are instructed to tight mark their full backs, though they're back in the box defending. I know the game pretty well, and at the moment, what i tell the players to do, they dont seem to listen. Mark him, dont roam, hug touchline.. they seem to have no impact what so ever on what the players actually do. As you said, its a Beta, and i understand that, but this is happening repeatedly. Happen to be on this occasion City had a few players attacking the box, ive conceded (and scored) similar goals when theres been 1 attacker vs 5 defensive players in the box. Its an issue.

[Flohrinho]

Games against City are always fun though.

I think of my last 3 games against them non had less then 6 goals in it usually ending in a draw or a win for them.

[Simsejensen77]

Ive played a season now total. Im Tottenham - with a decent squad.

Right now, its just not fun at all. The amount of goals from crosses from the wingers is just unrealistic. People not reacting to what you tell them etc.

This might be beta, but come on.

[Cleon]

Ive played a season now total. Im Tottenham - with a decent squad.

Right now, its just not fun at all. The amount of goals from crosses from the wingers is just unrealistic. People not reacting to what you tell them etc.

This might be beta, but come on.

What I find strange is people who are playing the beta and complaining about such issues yet when I check bugs forum not a single one of you have posted about them. I find that odd, if its as bad as you are all making out.......Why not post such issues in the bugs forum so they do get fixed then? It's easy to be critical but why not try and make an actual difference?

[matty2323]

What I find strange is people who are playing the beta and complaining about such issues yet when I check bugs forum not a single one of you have posted about them. I find that odd, if its as bad as you are all making out.......Why not post such issues in the bugs forum so they do get fixed then? It's easy to be critical but why not try and make an actual difference?

ive been posting in the official feed back thread as i was unsure if these are bugs, or just a poor ME?.

[Cleon]

If anyone thinks something is a bug, then post it in the bugs forums so its brought to their attention and then they'll confirm/deny it.

[tajj 7]

Yep seeing these goals all the time. I'm also getting the ones where they punt a simple ball forward in straight line usually form a deep free kick or from a centre back in general play. It goes over the top of my back four (and no one tracks the runner) and is landing between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot where the other teams striker just heads it in. During the whole time the ball is in the air my keeper never moves. Liverpool did the same thing twice to me in two minutes and Suarez of all people heads it in.

Playing wider seems to help reduce this from my experience as does having a '4-4-2' type formation as it seems having your winger/wide players closer to your full backs helps. I've also had 'defence positioning' match preparation on all season and this seems to also help.

Tight marking and man marking of the wingers doesn;t work, but always closing down seems to help, so put that in your opposition instructions for all wide players including full backs.

If anyone thinks something is a bug, then post it in the bugs forums so its brought to their attention and then they'll confirm/deny it.

Looking at this thread - http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/296-Match-Engine-3D-and-Team-Talks, I can see about 4 or 5 threads on this issue already so i think it has been covered.

[lam]

I'm not going to defend the ME here as I simply have not played enough of it to do so........and this isn't a teaching egg sucking comment either as I appreciate that you said you understand the game.

A few things to look at.

DDG has, for the Premiership, quite low aerial ability and command of area:

CoA:

This affects how well the goalkeeper takes charge of his penalty area and works with his defensive line. A goalkeeper who commands his entire box (i.e. has a high rating) will be instinctive and look to take charge of situations, especially coming for crosses (therefore working in tandem with Aerial Ability). Do note, however, that a high rating only increases his penchant for coming for crosses and not necessarily claiming them all.

LAM

[junker]

Checked the bugs forums, 3 threads near the top on this topic. I guess its just 'tactics' like Cleon said.

[Cleon]

Checked the bugs forums, 3 threads near the top on this topic. I guess its just 'tactics' like Cleon said.

Your ignorance to read what I actually put is astonishing. Try reading properly maybe next time before commenting?

[matty2323]

I'm not going to defend the ME here as I simply have not played enough of it to do so........and this isn't a teaching egg sucking comment either as I appreciate that you said you understand the game.

A few things to look at.

DDG has, for the Premiership, quite low aerial ability and command of area:

CoA:

This affects how well the goalkeeper takes charge of his penalty area and works with his defensive line. A goalkeeper who commands his entire box (i.e. has a high rating) will be instinctive and look to take charge of situations, especially coming for crosses (therefore working in tandem with Aerial Ability). Do note, however, that a high rating only increases his penchant for coming for crosses and not necessarily claiming them all.

LAM

thats fair enough. i wasn't really considering the keeper. Though Vidic and Rio hve good positioning, anticipation, bravery and heading stats to read that ball. Tactics has someting to do with it, but too many people are having the exact same issue for it to be 'tactic' related solely! ill read the threads and see what it says

[tajj 7]

Checked the bugs forums, 3 threads near the top on this topic. I guess its just 'tactics' like Cleon said.

It is bugged but then tactics also help, I have fiddled with my tactics since the start of the game and you can dramatically reduce the number of these instances occurring. I suppose you have to go by the philosophy that you are weak in the fullback area (even if you are not) and work from there. It's a workaround a bug yes but the game is still playable until it is fixed. Also remember that your team will be taking advantage of the same problems as well so you can use it to your advantage, I went from two 'inside forwards' playing AML & AMR to two regular wingers playing MR and ML, this has helped me both defensively and offensively.

[tajj 7]

Double post

[Cleon]

thats fair enough. i wasn't really considering the keeper. Though Vidic and Rio hve good positioning, anticipation, bravery and heading stats to read that ball. Tactics has someting to do with it, but too many people are having the exact same issue for it to be 'tactic' related solely! ill read the threads and see what it says

One of your defenders is injured aswell, did you take that into account? So depending what his injury was, he'd move less freely etc.

[tajj 7]

One of your defenders is injured aswell, did you take that into account? So depending what his injury was, he'd move less freely etc.

In the example he posted though it's very much the keeper who should be claiming that ball. It's one thing having a low command of area but not try to catch/punch a ball that travels past you at head height about a foot away from you is another. A low COA rated keeper may not come out of his 6 yard box and claim crosses over his defenders but the above example is silly, the ball is at a comfortable height, there is nothing in between him and the ball and the distance he has to travel is minimal. I have seen similar instances in my game where the ball has been along the ground and has actually passed through my defenders or GK

[Cleon]

In the example he posted though it's very much the keeper who should be claiming that ball. It's one thing having a low command of area but not try to catch/punch a ball that travels past you at head height about a foot away from you is another. A low COA rated keeper may not come out of his 6 yard box and claim crosses over his defenders but the above example is silly, the ball is at a comfortable height, there is nothing in between him and the ball and the distance he has to travel is minimal. I have seen similar instances in my game where the ball has been along the ground and has actually passed through my defenders or GK

I know.

But even if some of the bugs/flaws wasn't there he'd be no better off because he still had tactical issues too.

[tajj 7]

I know.

But even if some of the bugs/flaws wasn't there he'd be no better off because he still had tactical issues too.

True, but he'd concede goals in different ways which he could then learn from, it's one of the things that's annoying me in my save is that pretty much this is the only way I am conceding goals and I have no idea how good my defenders and tactics really are because they are conceding goals to just this bug and my whole tactical set up is basically countering this bug. For example I am playing with wingers instead of inside forwards like I want to, and I am therefore having to train my players as wingers. A small annoyance but I'm hoping that I'm not wasting development time as I don't want to play this way when this bug is fixed.

[tomadeira08]

I can see a lot of this from all sides.

Yes your playing v City so they are going to have a good chance of getting the ball, sometimes these things happen that you will have 11 people in the box and the smallest person on the pitch scores. This happens IRL occasionally.

Yes there is some user created tactics in there that could probably be improved upon.

But there definitely is an issue with the central defenders and dealing with crosses in the game, sometimes not just crosses anything that is hit across the central pair, they seem just not react to the situation. I am managing Glasgow Rangers and could be accused of exploiting the ME by playing a 4-4-2 with wingers and floating a lot of crosses into the box. (but bearing in mind the better quality team I have, I would still expect to score more goals from what ever I tell them to do).

Most of my goals have been conceded through the wings from crosses, using a tried and tested 4-4-2 I like to play with when I want to put a nice simple system together. I mainly try and stop the creation of crosses to help negate the issue. I would expect the quality defenders that I have got to deal with the crosses much better than they are.

I haven't posted the bug because I know that SI are aware of the issue and I expect that it is something that will be sorted for the full release (fingers crossed)

[tomadeira08]

I can see a lot of this from all sides.

Yes your playing v City so they are going to have a good chance of getting the ball, sometimes these things happen that you will have 11 people in the box and the smallest person on the pitch scores. This happens IRL occasionally.

Yes there is some user created tactics in there that could probably be improved upon.

But there definitely is an issue with the central defenders and dealing with crosses in the game, sometimes not just crosses anything that is hit across the central pair, they seem just not react to the situation. I am managing Glasgow Rangers and could be accused of exploiting the ME by playing a 4-4-2 with wingers and floating a lot of crosses into the box. (but bearing in mind the better quality team I have, I would still expect to score more goals from what ever I tell them to do).

Most of my goals have been conceded through the wings from crosses, using a tried and tested 4-4-2 I like to play with when I want to put a nice simple system together. I mainly try and stop the creation of crosses to help negate the issue. I would expect the quality defenders that I have got to deal with the crosses much better than they are.

I haven't posted the bug because I know that SI are aware of the issue and I expect that it is something that will be sorted for the full release (fingers crossed)

[matty2323]

I know.

But even if some of the bugs/flaws wasn't there he'd be no better off because he still had tactical issues too.

Please dont take the tactical mistakes as tactical nativity or not understand how tactics work, its simply the measures im going to at am attempt to flood the box to prevent the goals from crosses at the defenders do next to little. Yes, i know there are tactical mistakes in the post, but how can one make a correct tactic without defenders or midfielders doing anything. Ive tried a 4-2-2-2 formation (back 4 + wbl/r + wmr/l + amr/l) and still watch the opposition (Sunderland) attempt to exploit me around the outside. lost 2-0, both goals coming from wide. Its like Wingers are Diablo's!!

[ZdlR]

...tactical nativity...

That's an awesome image.

[Elrithral]

I'm curious. If this issue, in some part, is down to defensive setup and i'm seeing it regularly despite using the tactics creator, what does that say about the tactics creator?

[tomadeira08]

Not much Elrithral, using the tactics create just gives you a wizard of options, it is still very easy to create tactics that are flawed based on the information you put into the wizard.

But nevertheless, this problem is more down to the current BETA match engine and not to do with the tactics creator. The AI can be exploited from the same issue with there own tactics.

[Elrithral]

To the extent that you would see such glaring defensive issues whilst using a basic 4 man defence with basic tactic creator settings? Sorry, but that doesn't seem right.

If I set my defence as two full backs and two centre backs, all with defence setting, I wouldn't expect there to be such serious issues with tracking players.

[llama3]

frankly as far as I am concerned there are 2 big issues here:

1 - if you see something which you think is plain unrealistic and/or a game error/shouldn't be there - bugs forum, keep reporting, keep adding examples to existing bugs raised as it helps patterns emerge

2 - it is a BETA, it is deliberately released as an unfinished early access to have a play around and see what the new features are like, not as a basis to form your big long term save from. SI could easily not let anyone near the beta apart from testers, and you wait an extra 2 weeks? take it with a pinch of salt.

[suikoden]

To the extent that you would see such glaring defensive issues whilst using a basic 4 man defence with basic tactic creator settings? Sorry, but that doesn't seem right.

If I set my defence as two full backs and two centre backs, all with defence setting, I wouldn't expect there to be such serious issues with tracking players.

No decent defensive team defends with 2 full backs and 2 centre backs. Gotta look at the team as a whole. Perhaps your defenders are having trouble tracking players because they got too much to worry about in front of them. Seriously though, the defending in the beta is pretty terrible by default. Wouldn't blame the tactic creator for that though. Blame the BETA match engine. Quite disappointed with it but I am still very much looking forward to the 2nd November. Hopefully it has improved by quite a bit. If it is only marginally better than the beta I will never trust anyone ever again.

[suikoden]

Edit: Double post, sorry.

Might as well add that Sacchi had some training drill where he proved that a organized defensive outfit can defend against a disorganized attacking group even when outnumbered. In that sense I would like the ME to one day get to a point where it becomes immensely satisfying unlocking defenses and creating not a good tactic, but a good team and everything that entails.

[Rashidi]

Simple...when you are attacking the AI, do you see the AI committing the same defensive mistakes you are making?

If no then 100% its a user related issue.

If yes then its a match engine issue

When you are analyzing whether its an ME issue or not you need to spend more time LOOKING at the AIs defending and attacking before making a valid assessment. All i see from this is the USERs defending..so as far as I am concerned, this thread is a complete waste of time

[Falahk]

Simple...when you are attacking the AI, do you see the AI committing the same defensive mistakes you are making?

If no then 100% its a user related issue.

If yes then its a match engine issue

When you are analyzing whether its an ME issue or not you need to spend more time LOOKING at the AIs defending and attacking before making a valid assessment. All i see from this is the USERs defending..so as far as I am concerned, this thread is a complete waste of time

it is an AI problem aswell on the beta ME, and SI have even said they are looking into it as far as I know, so hopefully it will work better when the full game comes out

the problem is more or less:

In an attempt to fix the 3 striker problem of last years ME, both fullbacks moves to narrow, this means that they do not effectivly track players running towards byline (on both sides of the pitch, meaning that they cant catch the dude on the far post or the one making the cross), in addition to this changes was made to the ME to make intercepting passes harder, and to make tackling less effective, the combination of these things means you stand little chance of stopping the cross from going into the box in the first place aswell

[Flohrinho]

Simple...when you are attacking the AI, do you see the AI committing the same defensive mistakes you are making?

If no then 100% its a user related issue.

If yes then its a match engine issue

When you are analyzing whether its an ME issue or not you need to spend more time LOOKING at the AIs defending and attacking before making a valid assessment. All i see from this is the USERs defending..so as far as I am concerned, this thread is a complete waste of time

It's an AI problem as well.

At least 75% of the goals I score are crosses to the far post and the rest usually reflected shots.

I think I'll take the time later to make a video compilation of what I see in almost every game, only when it happens to the AI so people don't argue it's my tactics.

[Flohrinho]

Simple...when you are attacking the AI, do you see the AI committing the same defensive mistakes you are making?

If no then 100% its a user related issue.

If yes then its a match engine issue

When you are analyzing whether its an ME issue or not you need to spend more time LOOKING at the AIs defending and attacking before making a valid assessment. All i see from this is the USERs defending..so as far as I am concerned, this thread is a complete waste of time

It's an AI problem as well.

At least 75% of the goals I score are crosses to the far post and the rest usually reflected shots.

I think I'll take the time later to make a video compilation of what I see in almost every game, only when it happens to the AI so people don't argue it's my tactics.

But of course it gets you more angry when it happens to your team.

It's also not the fact that you concede from a cross, that should happen every now and then but it's usually the manner in which it happens.

When your defense just stands there watching the cross and out of nowhere an opposition player comes rushing in at lightning speed and gets to the ball before the keeper that was like 1 meter away gets to it, it just looks so comical that you actually have to laugh at how stupid defense and keeper often look, on both sides.

[sirfletch2006]

I think its a ME fault, I signed Andy Carroll and Tim Cahill on loan for the start of my 2nd season to deliberately exploit it.

Float lots of crosses in from wide poistions = profit.

[suikoden]

Rashidi didn't say this thread is a waste of time because it isn't an AI problem. He is saying it is a waste of time because you didn't show or focus on any evidence that it is an AI problem.

I don't agree with him that this is a waste of time. It is obviously a match engine problem and frankly the more people talk about it the better but I think some of you are missing Rashidi's point.

[Elrithral]

No decent defensive team defends with 2 full backs and 2 centre backs. Gotta look at the team as a whole. Perhaps your defenders are having trouble tracking players because they got too much to worry about in front of them. Seriously though, the defending in the beta is pretty terrible by default. Wouldn't blame the tactic creator for that though. Blame the BETA match engine. Quite disappointed with it but I am still very much looking forward to the 2nd November. Hopefully it has improved by quite a bit. If it is only marginally better than the beta I will never trust anyone ever again.

I disagree that no decent defensive team plays that system, not that i'm playing defensively. However, my point isn't that the tactics creator is an issue, i'm with you on the ME being disappointing, I was merely pointing out the fallacy that the setup might cause issues, especially when players are using bog standard setups using the tactics creator. It's an ME issue, yet people continue to raise tactics as if that's the cause of these issues.

[Elrithral]

Simple...when you are attacking the AI, do you see the AI committing the same defensive mistakes you are making?

If no then 100% its a user related issue.

If yes then its a match engine issue

When you are analyzing whether its an ME issue or not you need to spend more time LOOKING at the AIs defending and attacking before making a valid assessment. All i see from this is the USERs defending..so as far as I am concerned, this thread is a complete waste of time

Also, this is nonsense. Playing as Manchester United I had Nani as my top scorer with 21 goals, Valencia had 15. A majority of the goals were scored via crosses aimed towards the far post.

More than happy to upload the save and let you see this ME issue in action.

Edit: Here's the save file. Feel free to download and look through Nani's goals and then tell me that the AI isn't suffering from the same mistakes. http://www2.zshare.ma/ajc376gibvkf

[tajj 7]

i

the problem is more or less:

In an attempt to fix the 3 striker problem of last years ME, both fullbacks moves to narrow, this means that they do not effectivly track players running towards byline (on both sides of the pitch, meaning that they cant catch the dude on the far post or the one making the cross), in addition to this changes was made to the ME to make intercepting passes harder, and to make tackling less effective, the combination of these things means you stand little chance of stopping the cross from going into the box in the first place aswell

This sounds about right, from what I have witnessed. Effectively even if you are playing fairly standard width, your back four will be very narrow, when defending all four of your defenders can be a wide as the 6 yard box (presumably so there are no gaps between the full back and the centre backs) but it means you can throw a blanket over them, the wingers then have both the time to float the cross in and the space at the back post to be unmarked.

I also think the new ball physics have also had an effect, the player characters can't seem to react to the ball even if it is really close to them so you have a combination of unmarked wingers who have time and space to cross and then when the ball does pass near your players they aren't reacting to try and intercept it as it floats past them, so they appear to just stand there (same issue is apparent in set pieces). Add in the less effective tackling which means quick wingers who are decent dribblers can just ghost into the byline crossing positions with ease and you have these problems.

Like I said the best ways to counter it are to play wider than you normally would (think 'wide' being like 'normal') this will mean your back four is more spread out and your fullbacks will be a lot closer to the wingers so can stop the amount of crosses in the first place and secondly will more likely be marking the back post. I also think not playing with an AMR and AML helps, but instead have an MR and ML, this will mean your wide midfielders will be closer to your full backs and will be able to again reduce the space in which the opposition players are crossing from. (note though if you are playing wider you will be more open through the middle, so teams with 3 up front might cause you problems as well as players running through from the AMC position, so make sure at least one your midfielders are filling the space in front of the back four even if they are playing as an MC)

[Flohrinho]

So I just finished rendering a video where I captured two match days of goals from games where I didn't play.

Goals came from these different situations.

56 goals scored in 18 games (3,1 gpg)

22 goals from crosses 39,3%

15 goals from through and long balls 26,8%

11 goals from corners and free kicks 19,6%

03 goals from keeper deflections 5,4%

03 goals from long shots and individual efforts 5,4%

02 goals from penalties 3,6%

Of course this is a pretty small sample but shows pretty well that not only in games that involve my team crosses are the dominant form of assisting goals.

The real question though is if anyone knows how high the percentage of goals scored from crosses is in reality?

To prove that I didn't just make these stats up I'll link the video here as soon as it's done uploading, unfortunately my upload is very slow and it might take a while.

[Elrithral]

The real question though is if anyone knows how high the percentage of goals scored from crosses is in reality?

The issue with that is the variety with which they are scored irl, which I would wager is considerably different to the frequency with which far post crosses are converted in the game.

[Flohrinho]

The issue with that is the variety with which they are scored irl, which I would wager is considerably different to the frequency with which far post crosses are converted in the game.

That is one problem but I found looking through all these goals that not all of these crosses end up being scored by the one on the far post.

But I found an interesting article from last year on Arsenalcolumn.co.uk where the author wrote the following.

In the league this season, 27% of all goals scored have come from crosses – a fair proportion one would have to agree but that is put into perspective when you consider that 1.6% of ALL crosses lead to goals – a very low ratio indeed.

If that is true then an average of almost 40% is way to high even though the value might go down a bit if you take an entire season instead of just two match days I think it's pretty clear that atm there are too many goals from crosses.

One thing I practically didn't see at all was a goal after some amazing dribbling or any other individual effort, the only thing that comes to mind are the 3 long range shots that went in but even this sounds pretty low.

Well I just hope the final version of the game will be fine tuned enough that we see something between 20%-30% goals coming from crosses, preferably around 25% which sounds and feels about right to me.

Oh yeah and if someone scores a header after a cross it would be nice if the defenders would at least look as if they tried to stop their opponent and not just stand around open mouthed like in most cases.

[tajj 7]

That is one problem but I found looking through all these goals that not all of these crosses end up being scored by the one on the far post.

But I found an interesting article from last year on Arsenalcolumn.co.uk where the author wrote the following.

If that is true then an average of almost 40% is way to high even though the value might go down a bit if you take an entire season instead of just two match days I think it's pretty clear that atm there are too many goals from crosses.

One thing I practically didn't see at all was a goal after some amazing dribbling or any other individual effort, the only thing that comes to mind are the 3 long range shots that went in but even this sounds pretty low.

Well I just hope the final version of the game will be fine tuned enough that we see something between 20%-30% goals coming from crosses, preferably around 25% which sounds and feels about right to me.

Oh yeah and if someone scores a header after a cross it would be nice if the defenders would at least look as if they tried to stop their opponent and not just stand around open mouthed like in most cases.

I have had a few 'wonder goals' but again they mainly come from wingers, Wellington Nem, Lallana, Mayuka and even Nathaniel Clyne have dribbled in from the wing along the byline, round several players and then cut out again when they get to the post and shot in. I've also had ji sung park dribble all the way from his penalty area to score on a counter, but none of my defenders went to tackle so he just kind off ran in a straight line.

Thing with the crosses is as you put it there are very many different ways to score from crosses, the number of goals scored from them is low and IRL a 'cross' I think includes basically any ball played from the side of the pitch to the penalty area, where as the crosses in game are generally traditional aerial long balls played from out wide.

[Rashidi]

I disagree that no decent defensive team plays that system, not that i'm playing defensively. However, my point isn't that the tactics creator is an issue, i'm with you on the ME being disappointing, I was merely pointing out the fallacy that the setup might cause issues, especially when players are using bog standard setups using the tactics creator. It's an ME issue, yet people continue to raise tactics as if that's the cause of these issues.

Like i said before..list out that the AI is doing the same stuff..whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant as well..cos at the end of the day if you feel strongly that the ME is flawed then take a hike to the bugs or match engine forums and make a difference and stop being a whiner. For me any discussion on the AI has to be balanced.

When you analyse an engine if you are looking at it from the perspective of your team playing around your tactics...whether or not you are using the tactical creator..you should also be looking at the AI and how it plays..any analysis of the engine has to be done in real time..ie you play the match on FULL..i doubt you have done that which is why i am dismissing everything you have to say unless you back it up with hard facts. There are always gonna be slight quirks in the engine..and if you want to contribute productively then you will get genuine feedback

If you do that and there are others who can REPLICATE this..then yes its an ME problem, and yes post it in the RIGHT forum. This isnt the right forum for this.

[Kamil-S]

Maybe it sounds weird but with gelled squad after season at club I rarely concede from crosses. In fact I concede more goals from quick counters and long balls behind my defenders than from other situations. I must admit - first half of my first season was a nightmare - but after some additional teamwork training sessions and natural squad gelling my defence looks solid. It's true that dribbling is overpowered at the moment but it will be fixed soon I'm pretty sure...

[Elrithral]

Like i said before..list out that the AI is doing the same stuff..whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant as well..cos at the end of the day if you feel strongly that the ME is flawed then take a hike to the bugs or match engine forums and make a difference and stop being a whiner. For me any discussion on the AI has to be balanced.

When you analyse an engine if you are looking at it from the perspective of your team playing around your tactics...whether or not you are using the tactical creator..you should also be looking at the AI and how it plays..any analysis of the engine has to be done in real time..ie you play the match on FULL..i doubt you have done that which is why i am dismissing everything you have to say unless you back it up with hard facts. There are always gonna be slight quirks in the engine..and if you want to contribute productively then you will get genuine feedback

If you do that and there are others who can REPLICATE this..then yes its an ME problem, and yes post it in the RIGHT forum. This isnt the right forum for this.

You'll note that I only entered the conversation when the assertion that this was tactics related was made. I didn't raise the complaint, I merely answered what I believe to be unfair comments in relation to the original post. In fact all of my posts have been in direct response to other comments, so wind your neck in with silly little comments like "take a hike to the bugs or match engine forums and make a difference and stop being a whiner", it's not conducive and only serves to highlight an inability to comprehend the context with which my replies were made.

As for the issue itself. Watch the full match is absolute baloney and you know it. If goals are regularly scored from one specific passage of play that seems to replicate throughout then there is no need to watch the full match. I mean, the corner exploit has been present in previous saves, must we watch the full match to gauge the overall issue? No, because regular, similar incidents, with similar conclusions are obvious with it. What absolute tripe.

Edit: Regards the AI making similar mistakes, which seems to be the crux of your issue with my comments, my previous posts have specifically stated that my two highest scorers were wingers who regularly scored goals in this manner. Hmmmm.

[Wakers]

There's about two of these goals a game for me. Seems to happen regardless of tactics. For either team, when someone gets wide, defending just turns off. The full backs don't tackle, the ball goes in to the box where the one striker moves towards the ball and the 3/4/5/6 defenders and goalkeeper just watch him get onto it and score.

There's obviously a big problem there.

[Flohrinho]

So after failing twice to upload the video on Vimeo I uploaded it to Youtube.

[video=youtube;BSKFgQkTQhg]

Like I said before it's just AI teams playing and almost 40% of all goals come from crosses.

That being said, of course 56 goals from two match days isn't the best sample but it reflects pretty much how the game feels right now.

Especially bad I think is the way most of these goals look, often the defenders and keeper don't seem to react to the cross at all, while this might be a display problem and due to a lack of animations it's still really annoying when it feels like your defenders and goal keeper can't be bothered at all in some situations.

That being said I think I have found a way to limit the amount of crosses that come in atm.

Don't play a high defensive line and play fairly defensive fullbacks.

Give the OI to put the ML or AML onto their right foot and the RM or AMR onto their left foot.

It doesn't totally prevent crosses as much as I could manage for now.

[Rashidi]

You'll note that I only entered the conversation when the assertion that this was tactics related was made. I didn't raise the complaint, I merely answered what I believe to be unfair comments in relation to the original post. In fact all of my posts have been in direct response to other comments, so wind your neck in with silly little comments like "take a hike to the bugs or match engine forums and make a difference and stop being a whiner", it's not conducive and only serves to highlight an inability to comprehend the context with which my replies were made.

As for the issue itself. Watch the full match is absolute baloney and you know it. If goals are regularly scored from one specific passage of play that seems to replicate throughout then there is no need to watch the full match. I mean, the corner exploit has been present in previous saves, must we watch the full match to gauge the overall issue? No, because regular, similar incidents, with similar conclusions are obvious with it. What absolute tripe.

Edit: Regards the AI making similar mistakes, which seems to be the crux of your issue with my comments, my previous posts have specifically stated that my two highest scorers were wingers who regularly scored goals in this manner. Hmmmm.

Yes, we are all aware of a corner exploit in the engine, in fact fixing it would have resulted in more "cascading" issues. The point you seem to miss is that while there are obvious issues with certain aspects of the engine, the fact that all issues raised thus far have focused on how the "player" has found it difficult to "defend" or "attack" is irrelevant to me, because noone has shown me that the AI has faced a similar issue. If the AI regularly faces the same issues then its time for supertactics or supersystems . If you can take a 2nd division team and use these "flaws" to beat a top division side then there are glaring match engine issues that need to be dealt with. What this thread has failed to prove is that there is a match engine issue. All it has successfully done is prove that the people who are playing the game are screwing up, if the AI too is screwing up the same way then i completely concur that there is potentially a match engine flaw, the next step would be to replicate it successfully.

I am already playing the beta and I can see certain glaring problems which i understand have been catalogued as occurring both for the AI and the human player..these will be logged and dealt with. Now as far as wingers scoring goals is concerned, when you see the AI give up goals easily, have you shown once again that this is a directly result of a high DL, creating tonnes of spaces exploited via a through ball and players using their through channels ppm? then thats what the match engine is supposed to do. Is it scoring goals cos the players are not making any attempt ..(ie the AI) fullbacks do not even track the player or mark the space? Then yes it could be a match engine isssue.

If it is then you need, since you insist you are right, go and upload your pkms, with remarks attesting to these instances happening at whatever time period in the game. The coders can then take a look, and the designers can see if its a flaw in the logic.

Right now i have been playing the beta and as far as i can see the AI is doing what i expect, but if you are creating a unique set of circumstances that have resulted in an AI that seems impotent to defend then you could either come on when the game goes "live" to proclaim the existence of a super tactic that exploits flaws in the match engine or you could do something else by allowing someone else to replicate these unique circumstances.

[Cleon]

The ME has improved dramatically and had a lot of bug fixed compared to the ME version you are all currently playing.

Although some of what's been reported are not bugs and re down to bad tactics and tactic familarity. Not all ofc but a large number are user errors.