4-6-0 The Strikerless Formation

[jimbobBRFC]

The 4-6-0, suddenly thrown into the limelight bu Vincente Del Bosuqe's Spain against Italy in Euro 2012. A very interesting "strikerless" formation, which was widely expected to be completely useless. Coupled with Italys "return of the sweeper" tactic it made for a very interesting game. Im not going to bore you with ramblings of how the game went, you can see that in the Spanise Euro 2012 thread (as well as lots of ramblings about the length of grass). I'll just straight into FM

The red dots are how I would ste it up in FM. One point from the game was Spains lack of width, which was changed when Navas entered the fray. I have matched it up with a 4-2-3-1, the only reason being it is probably the most widely used formation in football at this moment in time.

The Roles

GK: Sweeper Keeper Attack The keeper will always offer himself as a passing option, and becasue of the very high line he will push up and sweep up any through balls

DR: Wing Back Attack Runs the line, provides some much needed width, will have the hugs touchline instruction so that he stays wide. Changed to an attack duty as he wasnt getting forward enough for my liking.

DC: Central defenders defend The starting point of most attacks, everything goes through these lads. Always a passing option, comfindent on the ball and can pick a pass. Pique is the master of this position. Changed from BPD as they were trying to many "hollywood" passes and giving the ball away. Want them to keep it short and simple.

DL: Full back Support Changed to a full back as 1) Abidal isnt really fit or quick enough to run the line like Alves can and 2) gives a little more defensive stability whilst still getting forward.

DM: Anchor Man Defend The Busquets role, sits infront of the defence, almost slots in as a DC when the wing backs get forward. Veyr hard to implement in FM but with a very low mentality this is the best option. Absoloutely vital in the formation as he gives the other players the freedom to do what they want

MCR Deep Lying Playmaker Support The more creative of the two DMC's. Sits there and sprays passes around the pitch, still gets forward when needed but does help out defensively. I know this isnt on the diagram but it was something brought to my attention after I had created the image. Changed back to a MC as it helped with Ball retention, possesion and all round play.

MCR: Advanced Playmaker Attack A very creative player, finds space moves forward and picks passes. Vital in linking up the play

AMC: Attacking Midfielder/Trequarista attack This man is everywhere, up front, dropping deep, linking up play, finding through balls. I had a lot of debate with myself about this position but I think Treq will best represent what is trying to be acheived. The one position im still massively undecided on, need this player to have a huge influence on the game so the treq role is better as he gets into more space, but then also need him to try and spearhead attacks which would mean giving him a AM duty. Will have very fine tunes instructions.

AML: Inside forward Attack Makes runs between the defensive line, looks for the through ball and finishes of moves. Expect this position to get a lot of goals

AMCR: Advanced playmaker Support Helps retain the ball hence the narrowness and playmaker role. Is set up to hug touchline so that he drifts out wide

That I think is the best way to set up in FM.

Team Instructions

Passing style: Shorter

Closing Down: high

Roaming: More Roaming

CReative Freedom: high Creative Freedom

Set up a lot of changing positions in player instructions i.e AML/R switch positions to encourage movement and keep giving a different approach

Everything else on default.

How it should work

Possesion should be massively weighted in this teams favour. Looking at the diagram, the two MC's the DM, the AMC, and the two wide players should massively outnumber most teams in the midfield. So possesion should be a premium. The ball will be retained and retained untill an opening is found then because of the players ability to pick a pass the through ball will be found. Providing the IF make lots of good runs there should be goals available. My one worry in FM is finding goals, without an actual striker I dont think goals will come easily, they shouldnt be conceded because of the amount of possesion and the strong defensive set up but actually scoring could lead to lots of draws and 1-0 wins. Another problem I have is the wide areas, I think for this to work at it's best the AML/R need to tuck in to AMC positions, the wing backs need to provide the width and the DM be ready to drop in DC. On FM them complex instructions are very hard to implement without actually changing the shape of the team, which in itself creates more problems. The last thing I was debating on is changing the Inside forwards to Advanced playmakers and tweaking there individual instructions to make them cut inside and make lots of forward runs, thoughts?

I can imagine this being very hard to implement in FM but im a sucker for trying new things out, Im going to trial a few games tonight with Barcalona just to see if it can work with the best team for this formation. if it does I will trial it with some weaker teams. I'd love to hear any other thoughts from the "tactical guru's" of the forums and just about anyone else for that matter.

Ive added this image into here just to give a reference point on my starting formation. Reasons why are detailed in post 20 Would still love to hear peoples thoughts, dont be afraid

Jimbob

[jimbobBRFC]

A point that has been noted in the Spanish thread is that Alonso played next to Busquets in DM and Xavi pressed on a little further, just a slight change to things

[Cleon]

The formation was actually flatter than you first think. This site is pretty decent for the stats

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/matches/live/day=1/session=3/match=2003323/index.html

You can see heatmaps for all the players individually too

[Falahk]

almost scary how similar the basic framework is to the tactic I made more then a year ago (at the early stages of fm11), and have kept working on over time (even if the tweaks have been minor), but since I had a pretty good idea of how I wanted my team to play and how the ME behave, I changed a bunch of individual sliders very early on aswell:

[jimbobBRFC]

The formation was actually flatter than you first think. This site is pretty decent for the stats

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/matches/live/day=1/session=3/match=2003323/index.html

You can see heatmaps for all the players individually too

Thanks Cleon, brilliant link that. Will be very useful.

almost scary how similar the basic framework is to the tactic I made more then a year ago (at the early stages of fm11), and have kept working on over time (even if the tweaks have been minor), but since I had a pretty good idea of how I wanted my team to play and how the ME behave, I changed a bunch of individual sliders very early on aswell:

Yeah it is similar, apart from the fact that your using a striker and the main point of this tactic is to have no striker haha. But I know what you mean. What individual sliders did you change if you dont mind me asking?

Im swaying more towards a 4-2-1-3-0 now, 2 DM's and one MC. After looking at the heat maps provided by Cleon seems to be more like Spains style. I think with Barca it's the perfect team to implement this style. Although it would be interesting to see it used with a less technically gifted side.

EDIT: Flicking through the heat maps its interesting to compare Silva and Navas's positions. When Silva started on the Left of the three more attacking midfielders is heat map shows him mostly coming inside and he covers most of the middle of the park. navas' on the other hand shows him barely leaving the touchline, very very wide. When Navas entered the game I thought Spain were much better, I think Width is still needed for this system to work well, but there needs to be width and passing options so it needs to be narrow. Tough one

[Falahk]

Yeah it is similar, apart from the fact that your using a striker and the main point of this tactic is to have no striker haha. But I know what you mean. What individual sliders did you change if you dont mind me asking?

the point is to use a striker that drops deep and hopefully drag a defender with him (rather then a classic no9 role), and have players around the striker who makes runs in behind, not strictly to play without a striker, this will in turn mean that you look for very different attributes then you normaly would be looking at for your striker

I think pretty much every player have some tweaked individual instructions, so I would ether need to post screens on pretty much every player or post the tactic (the later option would probably be a tad easy to do since im a tad lazy), if anyone is intrested I could probably dig out some pkm's of my team playing aswell

[sirfletch2006]

I've played this exact formation with Arsenal for the past 3 seasons with a massive amount of success.

Crucial positions are the AML and AMR who will basically be your strikers running from deep, I use Walcott and Hulk who are extemely quick with good dribbling skills.

[jimbobBRFC]

the point is to use a striker that drops deep and hopefully drag a defender with him (rather then a classic no9 role), and have players around the striker who makes runs in behind, not strictly to play without a striker, this will in turn mean that you look for very different attributes then you normaly would be looking at for your striker

I think pretty much every player have some tweaked individual instructions, so I would ether need to post screens on pretty much every player or post the tactic (the later option would probably be a tad easy to do since im a tad lazy), if anyone is intrested I could probably dig out some pkm's of my team playing aswell

Im not that bothered, Ill work something out couldnt just give me then main points from the specific instructions could you?

I've played this exact formation with Arsenal for the past 3 seasons with a massive amount of success.

Crucial positions are the AML and AMR who will basically be your strikers running from deep, I use Walcott and Hulk who are extemely quick with good dribbling skills.

Yeah I thought something like that would be important. Did you tweak any individual instructions or anything? Also do you have any screenshots?

[sirfletch2006]

No screenshots atm, but every position is more or less default except the AML and AMR who have through balls rarely.

You want them to receive the ball and bomb towards goal as quickly as possible.

Only other change would be the AMC is on a standard Attacking Midfielder Attack role for more closing down, its quite common he'll make 5 or 6 key passes a match.

[jimbobBRFC]

No screenshots atm, but every position is more or less default except the AML and AMR who have through balls rarely.

You want them to receive the ball and bomb towards goal as quickly as possible.

Only other change would be the AMC is on a standard Attacking Midfielder Attack role for more closing down, its quite common he'll make 5 or 6 key passes a match.

Cheers if you could get a screenshot would be greatly appreciated.

Did you ever try using a Trequarista or always used an attacking midfieler? I just think the Treq will give that movement and free roam that Cesc had for Spain and Messi has for Barca

[eplkewell]

The 4-1-2-3-0 isn't too difficult to implement with Barca or Spain on FM, but few teams have the personnel to run it. I know I've successfully made it work for Barca with something very similar to the inititial tactic described here. Of course, with Barcelona's players, it's hard to come up with a tactic that won't be pretty effective.

[furiousuk]

I played around with this when my strikers were injured and I quite liked the idea so played maybe the best part of half a season like this.

I used various different roles for the AMC but the other areas were pretty similar to my usual 41221 (433) with a DM/d and 2 Adv.PM/s at MC. I didn't have a player capable of fulfilling the Treq role adequately so usually used another Adv.PM or just an Attacking Midfielder, usually with a support duty.

It worked fine against teams that wanted to push up against me as it encouraged the opposition d-line to advance whereby you can use your wingers/strikers to get in behind and punish them. Playing deep obviously augments this.

But against weaker teams who were happy to try and get a draw (there weren't many of these at the time as I wasn't a strong team) the defence would sit and it was very hard to get penetration plus my defenders still played plenty of long balls forward which just lost possession.

I think it requires plenty of technique, intelligence and off-the-ball to work well. It's a fairly fluid tactical setup which those heatmaps show - Silva moves around a lot, Fabregas and Xavi likewise whilst, strangely I thought, Iniesta was more up and down. The Spain stats seem to show bands of players - Alonso/Busquest, Xavi/Iniesta and Fab/Silva. That could be interesting to implement and might compliment your system.

I'd probably stick with a diamond midfield, DM, MC, MC and AMC but try these roles:

DM - Def.Mid - s

MCl - DLP - d

MCr - ?? Probably Adv.PM - s or CM - s

AML - Adv. PM - s (probably set to cuts inside to have him sit narrower to try and pair with MCr)

AMR - IF/a

AMC - ?? Probably Att.Mid/a or Adv.PM/a to get him to stay in the hole or slightly advanced (but still withdrawn from a striker role)

I'm not saying this would work but it could create a different dynamic.

[sirfletch2006]

Cheers if you could get a screenshot would be greatly appreciated.

Did you ever try using a Trequarista or always used an attacking midfieler? I just think the Treq will give that movement and free roam that Cesc had for Spain and Messi has for Barca

Would probably work with a treq but I wanted the AMC to have Run From Deep Often to provide an extra goal threat.

[jimbobBRFC]

I played around with this when my strikers were injured and I quite liked the idea so played maybe the best part of half a season like this.

I used various different roles for the AMC but the other areas were pretty similar to my usual 41221 (433) with a DM/d and 2 Adv.PM/s at MC. I didn't have a player capable of fulfilling the Treq role adequately so usually used another Adv.PM or just an Attacking Midfielder, usually with a support duty.

It worked fine against teams that wanted to push up against me as it encouraged the opposition d-line to advance whereby you can use your wingers/strikers to get in behind and punish them. Playing deep obviously augments this.

But against weaker teams who were happy to try and get a draw (there weren't many of these at the time as I wasn't a strong team) the defence would sit and it was very hard to get penetration plus my defenders still played plenty of long balls forward which just lost possession.

I think it requires plenty of technique, intelligence and off-the-ball to work well. It's a fairly fluid tactical setup which those heatmaps show - Silva moves around a lot, Fabregas and Xavi likewise whilst, strangely I thought, Iniesta was more up and down. The Spain stats seem to show bands of players - Alonso/Busquest, Xavi/Iniesta and Fab/Silva. That could be interesting to implement and might compliment your system.

I'd probably stick with a diamond midfield, DM, MC, MC and AMC but try these roles:

DM - Def.Mid - s

MCl - DLP - d

MCr - ?? Probably Adv.PM - s or CM - s

AML - Adv. PM - s (probably set to cuts inside to have him sit narrower to try and pair with MCr)

AMR - IF/a

AMC - ?? Probably Att.Mid/a or Adv.PM/a to get him to stay in the hole or slightly advanced (but still withdrawn from a striker role)

I'm not saying this would work but it could create a different dynamic.

Yeah it would, like I mentioned in the OP im thinking of setting up lots of pairings that swap positions as you mentioned. Constantly giving the defence a new challenge because they will always be picking up someone different. The idea you set up of having a playmaker on one side and the IF on the other is good, and will probably help with possesion.

They were my thoughts i.e teams that sit back. Which is exactly the problem Barca have in real life, I think you'd have to build a plan b into the side. I.e a long ball big target man sort of thing just for when it isnt working. It may work surpisingly well with smaller teams because as you said teams will attack and press so coupled with a packed midfield and fast strikeforce could provide a few shock results. Although may have to sacrafice possesion for a more direct ball.

The 4-1-2-3-0 isn't too difficult to implement with Barca or Spain on FM, but few teams have the personnel to run it. I know I've successfully made it work for Barca with something very similar to the inititial tactic described here. Of course, with Barcelona's players, it's hard to come up with a tactic that won't be pretty effective.

Yeah I know what you mean, but its better to get a basic working idea down with a good team than starting with a poorer team and trying to make it work. Thats how I see it anyway.

[furiousuk]

I tended to sit deep and playing longer than you're set up so I would have an even harder time against negative teams than you'll probably face. Plus my team weren't that technical (although fairly smart at the time).

You might find that pushing up much higher with a slowish tempo and shorter passing leads to more intricate stuff and playing withdrawn from the oppo defense could become the advantage it's theoretical supposed to be.

Again though, your choice of player will be crucial.

AMC will obviously be the biggest choice but the other choices won't be too far behind. Your players will need to have incredible off the ball and intelligence to play fluidly matched with the first touch and technique to create some really interesting stuff.

There will be a lot of bodies in a fairly narrow area so it might actually mean that playing faster could be beneficial because it'll make them harder to mark - of course you'd be asking a massive technical question of your team and finding a balance between the speed you need to create openings and the speed your team are capable of playing at will be pretty crucial and this will change during a game so will be pretty involved for you as well.

[jimbobBRFC]

I tended to sit deep and playing longer than you're set up so I would have an even harder time against negative teams than you'll probably face. Plus my team weren't that technical (although fairly smart at the time).

You might find that pushing up much higher with a slowish tempo and shorter passing leads to more intricate stuff and playing withdrawn from the oppo defense could become the advantage it's theoretical supposed to be.

Again though, your choice of player will be crucial.

AMC will obviously be the biggest choice but the other choices won't be too far behind. Your players will need to have incredible off the ball and intelligence to play fluidly matched with the first touch and technique to create some really interesting stuff.

There will be a lot of bodies in a fairly narrow area so it might actually mean that playing faster could be beneficial because it'll make them harder to mark - of course you'd be asking a massive technical question of your team and finding a balance between the speed you need to create openings and the speed your team are capable of playing at will be pretty crucial and this will change during a game so will be pretty involved for you as well.

And i expected it to be easy

As you say player choice is crucial. For a smaller team or less technical shall we say your approach will be much better, Deeper and concentrate on a patient buildup that waits and waits for the perfect opening. I think with a team like Barca and all their technicall brilliance a more condensed high pressing game focused around intricate passing moves will work much better. I'll trial it tonight see how it turns out.

If it works ok with Barca who would you suggest trying it with? I was thinking Liverpool, Dortmund (I know they won theleague but I think in FM terms they arn't world class) maybe even Udinese. An average team for the league their in

[furiousuk]

I'm not sure who would come into this category at the start of the game but any side with an abundance of movement and technical ability would be well suited.

Off the top of my head - Swansea maybe based on real-life. Intelligent players with enough technique to pull off some creative stuff. Don't know how they translate to FM though. I know in real-life a lot was based around Sigurddson but he always had a striker in front to pull the CB's away from him. That won't happen in a 4-6-0 but needs to be considered.

A team with a world-class AMC is an obvious choice too. Kind of like Le Tissier at Southampton back in the day. I'm not really a fan of building a team around one guy but it would seem like a good way of doing things in this instance.

[jimbobBRFC]

I'm not sure who would come into this category at the start of the game but any side with an abundance of movement and technical ability would be well suited.

Off the top of my head - Swansea maybe based on real-life. Intelligent players with enough technique to pull off some creative stuff. Don't know how they translate to FM though. I know in real-life a lot was based around Sigurddson but he always had a striker in front to pull the CB's away from him. That won't happen in a 4-6-0 but needs to be considered.

A team with a world-class AMC is an obvious choice too. Kind of like Le Tissier at Southampton back in the day. I'm not really a fan of building a team around one guy but it would seem like a good way of doing things in this instance.

Yeah thats why I thought Dortmund but then its a waste to not use Levandowski (spelling). Going to trial it now with Barca, wish me luck

[yaşar]

is there any download link to try it ?

[jimbobBRFC]

is there any download link to try it ?

Ive literally just created it so no not yet unfortunately. Not at least untill IVe tested it

This is what I finally decided on as formation

Right so this is what I have initially set up with. During my first friendly against the reserve team I switched between a narrow with 3 AMC and a wider one with AML/R. Both worked well and both had plus points. The narrow kept possesion superbly, the B team barely touched the ball in the first half. Possesion was up near 70% and passes completed was above 90% for all areas of the team. Did go in 1-0 up with a well worked passing goal which finished with an easy tap in for Messi. In the second half pushed players out wider and tried something different. This gave less possesion, think I finished the game with about 60-65% so did lose the ball a lot more. But attacking was improved, the outer players provided width, which coupled with cut inside instructions made them come in and still keep the ball. Ended up finished 3-0, one goal coming from a through ball to my AML the other a Pique header from a corner. Was happy but not entirely convinced.

First real friendly I decided on the narrow variation, kept this up through the whole game. Ended up finishing 1-1 against some Middle Eastern club, i wasnt happy with the result but, and this is a big but, we had 32 shots and 60% possesion. Of the 32 only 11 were off target, which by my calculations makes 66% of them either on target/blocked/hit the woodwork. Which I am happy with. I did also orignally start with 2 DM's and 1 MC but after trying this with 2MC's and 1DM ball retention, possesion and general all round play improved.

So I tweaked some more and decided on a hybrid of the two, an inside forward on the AML to cut inside and make runs in behind the defence, will use Sanchez/Villa for this role. Messi as an attacking midfielder, im still unsure on whether to use him as a Treq or an AM so I will watch this carefully. Fabregas as a AP just next to Messi to help with ball retention but I have set him to hug touchline so that he does drift out wider. Xavi and Iniesta are set up so one of them hangs a little deeper (Xavi) and one gets forward(Iniesta), almost creating a front four and providing lots of attacking options. Back four is pretty standard apart from Alves who is very attacking to provide width down that wing due to Fabregas being a little narrower. Xavi/Iniesta and Fabregas/Messi are both set to switch positions just to try and provide movement, confusion and a different attacking dynamic.

I went very fluid to encourage movement between the lines, the high line to keep things compact and aid with ball retention, although against more attacking teams I will lower this a little to prevent balls over the top. Everything else is pretty self explanatory.

Let me know what you think people

[jimbobBRFC]

A little more progress coming your way now people

after a quick pre season which gave me some less than promising results i.e a 2-2 draw with Sheghia Sheju (Spelling?) the strikerless formation was thrown in at the deep end with the super cup match against Real Madrid, what a lovely game to test. So here's the result:

Was massively impressed. Dominated possesion, kept the ball for long periods of time. They had more shots yes but as you will see in a minute their was nothing that really troubled Valdes. Both of our goals were excellent passing moves (no screenies from them sorry) and am very excited about the potential for this tactic. Anyway here's a heat map of the positions:

There are a lot of dots I know but there were a few subs made due to injuries and tiredness. The back three is Hummels and Pique the wider two, with Busquets the more central one. He is in that position as he came on for Hummels at half time when he went off injured. The wing backs are withdrawn as I knew Madrid had excellent attacking threats down the wings and with the full backs so set them up slightly more defensive. They still got forward but I wanted them to be a little more considered with attacking movement. Mascherano is in the hole, doing exactly what I want him to do.My two midfielders are very close, which I actually like. I want them to exchange the short little passes and give each other an option, from watching Barca play I would say their heat map would look very similar (although I have no evidence on this. The left hand attacked is David Villa, he had an absoloute storming game. The amount of times Xavi/INiesta picked up the ball and found the through ball in behind Ramos was unbelievable. On another day he could have scored a hatful, was made to rue missed chances though. The three attacking players on the right are Messi, Fabregas and Sanchez. Sanchez only made a brief apearence so I will ignore one dot. Messi (AMC) and Fabregas (AML) are very close together. This is most likely because I have them set up to swicth positions so they have averaged out in some kind of middle ground between the two positions. A side not I changed my mind and pushed Fabregas out to the wing from AMCL to AML, simply because it was getting to congested in the AMC slot and he provided a lot mroe natural width. The top dot is Pedro who I brought on in the 93rd minute, so that can be completely ignored

SO back to Madrids chances:

Ive de selected the missed shots as they are pretty irrelevant as they didnt trouble the keeper. As you can see there are only 5 shots that were on target and two were from outside the box, one from a pretty bad angle hit at Valdes' near post. All routine saves for him. The other two saves were a little more dangerous but there arnt many tactics that could keep Madrid from having a chance for 94 minutes of football.

THere are more images to come tomorrow and the analysis will continue, so dont go away. Feel free to ask any questions, and as always I look forward to hearing some input

Jimbob

PS: This formation cannot score goals against a 4-4-2, all my friendly s were against 4-4-2 opposition and really struggled to score goals. Possesion was ok, goal scoring not so much so. Can anyone see any glaring weaknesses as to why this may be?

[jcoll]

I've always thought that a Deep Lying Forward would suit this formation instead of the 10 as the DLF drops deep and acts like a 10 but links up with the CM's and wingers usually looking for an exchange in passes like Messi does for Barca and what Benzema has done recently for France.

[yaşar]

is it dlf support or attac ?

[jcoll]

is it dlf support or attac ?

Support, i'd imagine.

[ZdlR]

Looks like their shots were primarily coming from the space that Dani Alves was leaving by being an attacking wing back. They are outside the box, of course, so pose little threat, but might be worth keeping an eye on and considering some kind of mitigating countermeasure. Perhaps make Pique a stopper to go and meet that threat early (not really ideal) or move Biscuits across to the DMCr slot.

[jimbobBRFC]

I've always thought that a Deep Lying Forward would suit this formation instead of the 10 as the DLF drops deep and acts like a 10 but links up with the CM's and wingers usually looking for an exchange in passes like Messi does for Barca and what Benzema has done recently for France.

Yeah but the whole point of the formation is to not use a striker. Ive used the set up as youve mentioned plenty of times before, just an experiment to try and create a tactic without a striker

Looks like their shots were primarily coming from the space that Dani Alves was leaving by being an attacking wing back. They are outside the box, of course, so pose little threat, but might be worth keeping an eye on and considering some kind of mitigating countermeasure. Perhaps make Pique a stopper to go and meet that threat early (not really ideal) or move Biscuits across to the DMCr slot.

You know what Zdlr I didnt even think about the space Alves was leaving, good idea with moving Bisquits acorss. Although the idea im currently toying with would probably solve that problem in it self. Ill update more with the new idea later when I get home from work and have more time. If anyone is still interested that is

[tomtuck01]

The tactic looks very interesting, but as we discussed in the other thread, scoring goals may be problematic..........you'll have to see with more testing.

Defensively it looks like it should be solid, though as someone else pointed out Real Madrid's chances in your win at the Bernabeu were all coming from their left, or rather your right. As much as you want Dani Alves to provide width, I think he'll leave far too much space by being set to the "Attack" duty. Perhaps switching him to the "Support" duty but with forward runs set to "Often" could have an effect in his defensive position?

Either that, or you could actually move him to the WBR spot but only have him set to "Support".

If you do try that, maybe, as has been suggested already, move Sergio Busquets to the DMRC spot for that extra cover in that area. And I personally would also drop your DLP, (Xavi), into the DMC position. Still have him as your DLP, but set his forward runs to "Often", as he should still then join up with the attacking play aswell as providng a central screen the two central defenders.

[jimbobBRFC]

The tactic looks very interesting, but as we discussed in the other thread, scoring goals may be problematic..........you'll have to see with more testing.

Defensively it looks like it should be solid, though as someone else pointed out Real Madrid's chances in your win at the Bernabeu were all coming from their left, or rather your right. As much as you want Dani Alves to provide width, I think he'll leave far too much space by being set to the "Attack" duty. Perhaps switching him to the "Support" duty but with forward runs set to "Often" could have an effect in his defensive position?

Either that, or you could actually move him to the WBR spot but only have him set to "Support".

If you do try that, maybe, as has been suggested already, move Sergio Busquets to the DMRC spot for that extra cover in that area. And I personally would also drop your DLP, (Xavi), into the DMC position. Still have him as your DLP, but set his forward runs to "Often", as he should still then join up with the attacking play aswell as providng a central screen the two central defenders.

Goals were problematic. Although in the return leg of that fixture I won 3-1 so all in all things wernt that bad on the goal front. Ive taken your advice in but switched to Swansea instead. Might as well test it somewhere with a little more challenge. Very interesting friendly results, Ill update more after ive played some competitive games.

Against a 4-4-2 I play with a 4-3-1-2 as in 3DM's 1MC and 2AML/R. Dominates that, against most other formations I play with 2DM's and a MCR and then 3AMC's. SImilar to above but helping to compensate for the attacking full back. Will give more details as I said when ive played competively. Although in first three friendlys ive won 3-0 2-1 and 3-0 so goals dont seem a problem

[Jumbo]

Spaletti's Roma team played like this a few years ago, I'm sure there was a thread on it at the time.

[peleJunior]

Can't get on board with this system at all. The Spanish will probably use it effectively but they are really the only team that can. It lacks a spearhead, it lacks width, it has more midfielders than is necessary, come on Del Bosque just drop a genius or two They played Torres tonight and got 4. Okay Ireland don't defend like Italy but still they looked more balanced. Torres staying on the shoulder pushing the opposition defensive line back giving space to creative midfielders in that zone of control the Spanish love i.e the centre circle and the oppositions box.

Spain are wonderful to watch, but I would worry about their width. Barcelona refused to get fullbacks overlapping against Chelsea and I think it cost them in the end. Too much through the middle. Spain are a bit better in my opinion Arbeloa in particular makes clever runs in behind fullbacks. They are still the team to beat, hunger is definetly still there, especially with Torres he looks like he is going to explode all over again...

[jimbobBRFC]

Can't get on board with this system at all. The Spanish will probably use it effectively but they are really the only team that can. It lacks a spearhead, it lacks width, it has more midfielders than is necessary, come on Del Bosque just drop a genius or two They played Torres tonight and got 4. Okay Ireland don't defend like Italy but still they looked more balanced. Torres staying on the shoulder pushing the opposition defensive line back giving space to creative midfielders in that zone of control the Spanish love i.e the centre circle and the oppositions box.

Spain are wonderful to watch, but I would worry about their width. Barcelona refused to get fullbacks overlapping against Chelsea and I think it cost them in the end. Too much through the middle. Spain are a bit better in my opinion Arbeloa in particular makes clever runs in behind fullbacks. They are still the team to beat, hunger is definetly still there, especially with Torres he looks like he is going to explode all over again...

I do agree the system probably isn't the best and I agree it was a bad decision by Del Bosque, but it is an interesting formation none the less and one I wanted to try and make work.

Your right the fullbacks are very important if they dont get forward and offer a wide option it gets very crowded and not much happens. It also need a genius of a playmaker. I.E at Barca I had messi/Fabregas/Iniesta/Xavi so more than enough, at Swansea I have got Sigurdson who plays it equally as well. Torres is coming back, can just see it

[andrew bowditch]

I have been trying this for a while with Man UTd in season 2020/2021 so all regens really.

I have tried this with a 4-1-2-3

DMC - Anchorman (D), MCR - DLP (S), MCL ADV Playmaker (S), AMR Inside Forward (A), AMC Treq (A), AML Inside Forward (A)

Unfortunately it seems as though my forwards dont want to link up, just recieve balls over the top and run onto it. My instructions are slow tempo, short passing, high creative freedom, High def line

My forward 3 all have RFD often, which i guess might be causing the problem? I just cant seem to create many chances let alone put them away

[jimbobBRFC]

I have been trying this for a while with Man UTd in season 2020/2021 so all regens really.

I have tried this with a 4-1-2-3

DMC - Anchorman (D), MCR - DLP (S), MCL ADV Playmaker (S), AMR Inside Forward (A), AMC Treq (A), AML Inside Forward (A)

Unfortunately it seems as though my forwards dont want to link up, just recieve balls over the top and run onto it. My instructions are slow tempo, short passing, high creative freedom, High def line

My forward 3 all have RFD often, which i guess might be causing the problem? I just cant seem to create many chances let alone put them away

I think the problem is all three forward having RFD often, they are all bombing forward at every opportunity. Maybe bring your Treq back to a more supporting role, AP Support AM Support so that he links up play better. The best way to score goals I have found is through balls to the AML/R and then it being tucked away. Works a treat for me anyway Also how you do have your full backs set up because they need to quite attacking to really find the width for the team and give an outlet in the wide areas. Two most important positions in this formation are AMC and the full backs, get them setup right and I think its a winner

[tordenhest]

In my second season with Arsenal, and coincidentally I just experimented with something similar before going online to read more about strikerless formations, which lead me to finding this thread!

I was down by two goals at half time away at Old Trafford, when I decided my striker Jovetic was far too isolated up front to do what I want him to do - play in my wingers, as well as conjuring up some chances for himself. I decided to just move him into the AMC position just to study the match engines reaction - ended up winning 4-2. In my next match, Chelsea were leading me at home and I was creating zip. I did the same thing, moved Jovetic into AMC, and suddenly my wingers ran rampant, feeding on all sorts of creative play coming from my AMC and MCs. Walcott was crossing both for my AMC and my IF to finish off, and my AMC was putting some fantastic through balls for my IF to finish off.

My team settings are like yours; very fluid, expressive, zonal marking, high pressing, more roaming

DL/DR: Full backs are Sagna and Cissokho, both set as very attacking wing backs with a hug touchline instruction - probably way too attacking for their relative skill level, shall have to adjust.

DC's: Centre backs are Vermaelen and Koscielny, who are just regular centre backs with stopper/cover duties. As you mentioned, the BPD just leads to unnecessary loss of possession and didn't really result in Vermaelen playing the type of ball I would have liked.

DMC: I have been playing Song as a defensive midfielder with a defend duty, but as you mentioned playing him as an even more defensive anchorman which I'd probably be inclined to agree with.

MC's: Arteta as a DLP support and Wilshere as a AP attack - no real explanation necessary, and this seems to work well. If the AP is ball hogging a bit too much I reduce his duties to support, lowering his RWB instructions.

AML/R: Willian as an AML IF with an attack duty seems to work well, and Walcott on the right side with a winger duty to stretch the play.

AMC: Jovetic as a Trequartista. Playing with hassle opponents shout ensures he is part of the pressing game, however I am inclined to give him some more forward runs. He has been getting on the end of things without them though, so far.

Shouts are: Push up, play out of defence, stay on feet, hassle opponents, pass into space, retain possession, work ball into box.

I realise this does not quite replicate the way Spain play, but I just wanted to mention it as the shape is more more less the same as yours apart from the AMRC being a winger in my tactic.

I'm still very unsure of which mentality set to use. As mentioned by Wwfan in a thread on Barcelona tactics, using a more conservative mentality like Counter replicates their narrow play and slow tempo, any thoughts on this? Compressing the play to the middle also means the AML/R has some space on the sides to counter into, should the occasion arise. One concern though is that perhaps all these central players would walk all over each other if playing too narrow.

[jimbobBRFC]

Yeah it is very similar to how I was playing, I just couldnt get it to work well enough to make it a viable tactic. Well actually it worked well with Arsenal but witha team a bit lower down the footballing pyramid it failed dramatically. I had the saem concern and found a lot of the time my AMC and MC's would end up on top of each other. Which limited options as they could easily be split up by one opposition players.

Its interesting to see that youve managed to get two outstanding results though, with a formation I struggled with

[SRL88]

Would be a very interesting formation to try with the likes of Barca.

[tordenhest]

Yeah it is very similar to how I was playing, I just couldnt get it to work well enough to make it a viable tactic. Well actually it worked well with Arsenal but witha team a bit lower down the footballing pyramid it failed dramatically. I had the saem concern and found a lot of the time my AMC and MC's would end up on top of each other. Which limited options as they could easily be split up by one opposition players.

Its interesting to see that youve managed to get two outstanding results though, with a formation I struggled with

Yeah, I must agree that I am finding it somewhat inconsistent, even with Arsenal. I tried to analyze why I was having so much success in some games and struggling in others, and I'm starting to think that it is just very effective against more attacking teams who push up. This clogs up the middle of the park with players, making it difficult for the opposition to take control of the midfield. This often led to the AMC or one of the MCs finding themselves unmarked and with a good opportunity to play a through ball for the wingers who were in loads of space due to the opposing full backs being pushed up.

In other words I found that instead of being able to dominate possession by sheer amount of bodies in midfield the way Spain do, it is more effective for counter attacking. To really make a strikerless formation work I think one would need a bit deeper understanding of the match engine than I have.

[thomit]

You achieve the 4-6-0 better in FM by using the standard 4-5-1 (or 4-3-3 ... basically what I mean is the one with a dmc, 2 mc's and a aml and a amr.) Set the striker up as a trequartista, preferrably with "comes deep..." ppm, amr and aml as inside forwards attacking. Voila, you have the 4-6-0. It's the one I use for my Arsenal team, and it's very very good for that sort of players. mcl= central midfielder, attacking, mcr=deep lying playmaker, support, dmc= defensive midfielder, defend. Dl and Dr full backs or wing backs attack, DCL= ball playing stopper, DCR=defender, cover. These last 2 set to tackle easy. Control, very fluid, short, press, zonal. Default creativity. Drill crosses. More roaming. Set MCR as primary playmaker. It's very simple to set up (with the TC), and very easy to see where you should tweak, allthough the TC comes up with most things spot on - mainly you could tweak width and tempo slightly, and make wing backs and inside forwards not run with ball so much, and make everyone not try long shots. If you have a player that is exceptionally good at long shots, train him a ppm for it instead. Fairly short passing for everyone except MCR. My amr/l set to swap places with each other all the time. No real need for additional shouts.

It's also easy to make a second tactic that is safer, for keeping a lead, without altering the basics too much. Mainly take forwrd runs away from the wing backs, play a little slower and deeper.

By using a trequartista in the regular striker position, you avoid the clutter you tend to get if you try to set up the 4-6-0 without a striker but with a amc instead. There's ample space, no1 runs in the way of the others. In addition, you can use players that have either striker or amc as best position, as long as they have the right qualities as a trequartista, it doesn't matter.

The way this plays out on your screen will amaze you - if you have the right calibre of players, that is.

[jimbobBRFC]

In other words I found that instead of being able to dominate possession by sheer amount of bodies in midfield the way Spain do, it is more effective for counter attacking. To really make a strikerless formation work I think one would need a bit deeper understanding of the match engine than I have.

Yeah I found the same was very very good on the counter as thomit has mentioned I think that is truly the only way to make it work well and consistently.

You achieve the 4-6-0 better in FM by using the standard 4-5-1 (or 4-3-3 ... basically what I mean is the one with a dmc, 2 mc's and a aml and a amr.) Set the striker up as a trequartista, preferrably with "comes deep..." ppm, amr and aml as inside forwards attacking. Voila, you have the 4-6-0. It's the one I use for my Arsenal team, and it's very very good for that sort of players. mcl= central midfielder, attacking, mcr=deep lying playmaker, support, dmc= defensive midfielder, defend. Dl and Dr full backs or wing backs attack, DCL= ball playing stopper, DCR=defender, cover. These last 2 set to tackle easy. Control, short, press, zonal. Default creativity. Drill crosses. More roaming. Set MCR as primary playmaker. It's very simple to set up (with the TC), and very easy to see where you should tweak, allthough the TC comes up with most things spot on - mainly you could tweak width and tempo slightly, and make wing backs and inside forwards not run with ball so much, and make everyone not try long shots. If you have a player that is exceptionally good at long shots, train him a ppm for it instead. Fairly short passing for everyone except MCR. My amr/l set to swap places with each other all the time. No real need for additional shouts.

It's also easy to make a second tactic that is safer, for keeping a lead, without altering the basics too much. Mainly take forwrd runs away from the wing backs, play a little slower and deeper.

By using a trequartista in the regular striker position, you avoid the clutter you tend to get if you try to set up the 4-6-0 without a striker but with a amc instead. There's ample space, no1 runs in the way of the others. In addition, you can use players that have either striker or amc as best position, as long as they have the right qualities as a trequartista, it doesn't matter.

The way this plays out on your screen will amaze you - if you have the right calibre of players, that is.

This is definately the best way but I was trying to make it work without a striker in the ST position in the TC, just to see if it was possible to make it work. The formation you describe is probably my most used formation on FM, I usually have something similar with every team I manage, although a lot of the time I use a DLF rather than a Treq simply because of the standard of players.

[Flohrinho]

I'm in the process of building a strikerless tactic as well and have opted to play a 2-3-2-3 formation which seams to work pretty well atm it comes fairly close to how Spain played during the Euros but it's still lacking in some areas.

I build this tactic in with my second season Barca squad and they seem to have adapted quite fast to the unusual formation, it still drains my players stamina too fast for my liking but the stats I got with it read quite well already. I average 3.3 goals per game and concede 0.4, haven't conceded in my last 12 games so the defense looks like it's on a good way, I also get around 65%-70% possession in most games and usually 85%-90% pass completion ratio.

The next game is against Real Madrid and will be my first real test against a big team this season, so I hope it goes well then I might wright in a bit more detail on how I set up my tactic so far.

[jimbobBRFC]

I'm in the process of building a strikerless tactic as well and have opted to play a 2-3-2-3 formation which seams to work pretty well atm it comes fairly close to how Spain played during the Euros but it's still lacking in some areas.

I build this tactic in with my second season Barca squad and they seem to have adapted quite fast to the unusual formation, it still drains my players stamina too fast for my liking but the stats I got with it read quite well already. I average 3.3 goals per game and concede 0.4, haven't conceded in my last 12 games so the defense looks like it's on a good way, I also get around 65%-70% possession in most games and usually 85%-90% pass completion ratio.

The next game is against Real Madrid and will be my first real test against a big team this season, so I hope it goes well then I might right in a bit more detail on how I set up my tactic so far.

yeah get some more details up even if you do lose the game get some screenshots up. 2 at the back is a very intersting proposition

[Flohrinho]

yeah get some more details up even if you do lose the game get some screenshots up. 2 at the back is a very intersting proposition

So I finally got around to playing the game. Damn RL won't stop interfering. ^^

Sadly the game wasn't really good because Real Madrid was constantly fouling and interrupting my entire play, a bit like in RL I guess. Maybe a game that isn't a derby and is less heated might give me a better view on how the tactic performs against better opposition.

But here is a preview of the formation I'm using atm.

As you can see I started with a normal 4-5-1 and modified it to keep the distance between my players as small as possible.

The major problems I'm facing atm is that I can't get my AMC to work the way I would like him to work. He seems very reluctant to run into any space in front of him and always seems to drop deep. I already untrained Messis "comes deep to get the ball" but he still doesn't do the runs I would expect him to do or that I get from him when he is playing as a striker and yes I tried different run from deep settings as well as some playing with mentality and creative freedom.

Interestingly enough Villa has performed better in that AMC position despite having a far lower rating as AMC then Messi, my guess is that his "tries to beat offside-trap" ppm makes him a more dangerous player in that position.

The biggest problem so far for me is one related with the match engine. Packing the midfield with players creates a problem within the match engine. If you want players to move up into another strata they need space to move into while in reality we often see player interchanging and players coming from deeper positions to run past players that were higher up the field then they were it's almost as if the players within the match engine are very reluctant to do that.

The pass and move game you usually see from Spain and Barcelona is very hard to implement for me within the match engine so far but it's essential for this tactic to work. Another problems seems to be that despite roam from position a lot of my players seems to easily marked out of the game by aggressive teams with tight man marking tactics.

So I still have a lot to figure out here how to solve these problems but the main frame of the tactic seems to be quite good so far.

[Warrenwwr]

nice thread!

im using 4-1-2-3-0 formation (symmetrical and 3 AMC) these days in portugal league (with beira mar). yes an actual minnow. and ive had success. the tactic plays just like spain did in euros.

teams have trouble scoring on my team. best defensive record in the league. and placed 4th. actually beat porto.

the treq (cristiano) (central amc) and the anchor (casteglione *sp?) (dmc) are critical. easily the 2 best players on my team stats wise, and i think that is why it has worked out thus far.

*edit* more info:

ground size is smallest possible

high pressing

drill crosses (very rarely happens anyway)

everything else default

the 2 mc's are BWM, 1 support 1 defence. if i get better quality players i may change them to DLP. but BWMs for now just serve to hassle opposition off the ball. very often i see 2-3 players closing down opposition AMCs and MCs. believe it or not, my AMC's rack up more tackles than my DC's.

my main decisions as the matches progress are what mentality, and what players to swap out. usually start off on control, then change to defensive or attacking as necessary.

[jimbobBRFC]

@Flohrhino What score did the madrid game finish then? See I found with my AMC was absoloutely vital, played him as a Treq and he has everywhere and everything. Didnt score many goals so probably isnt what you want but his link up play and his ability to pick a pass through to the AML/R was phenomenel, did score slightly more goals when i was playing RVP there with Arsenal.

DO you not find you get caught out a lot defensively with just the two players and the wing backs or is it defensively sound?

@Warrenwwr Yeah thats similar to what I ended up using, do you not find its excellent on the counter and poor in possesion ? Two BWM's in the center is an interesting idea, maybe thats where I went wrong, trying to incorportate too many playmakers and not enough players trying to win the ball back.

Reading your two posts has made me want to try again

[Flohrinho]

@Flohrhino What score did the madrid game finish then? See I found with my AMC was absoloutely vital, played him as a Treq and he has everywhere and everything. Didnt score many goals so probably isnt what you want but his link up play and his ability to pick a pass through to the AML/R was phenomenel, did score slightly more goals when i was playing RVP there with Arsenal.

DO you not find you get caught out a lot defensively with just the two players and the wing backs or is it defensively sound?

I won the game 0-1 at the Santiago Bernabeu which in itself was a good result. I had around 62% possession and only allowed them 6 shots the entire game I think in fact my defense is a real fortress atm I scored 40 goals and only conceded 1 goal in the league so far.

My problem is more the attacking side atm since I score too few goals from open play in my taste, half of my goals come from short corner routines and indirect free kicks somehow. I'll probably have to tweak my overall mentality structure a bit and see how it works.

One of the things that still bothers me is why Messi is unable to dribble past defenders when he is playing as an AMC he did that with ease when playing as a false nine in my system but since I moved him to AMC he loses the ball nearly every time he starts to run at a defender with it, so either he is struggling to adept to his new position or the defenders behave differently to him now and that is the reason why he is struggling.

[Warrenwwr]

@Warrenwwr Yeah thats similar to what I ended up using, do you not find its excellent on the counter and poor in possesion ? Two BWM's in the center is an interesting idea, maybe thats where I went wrong, trying to incorportate too many playmakers and not enough players trying to win the ball back.

Reading your two posts has made me want to try again

i never play this tactic on counter mentality. maybe when i get better quality players. for now only atk, def or con. vs porto and benfica i start off defensive, but still create some chances (once treq can get free and make tru balls).

yea BWM are working well so far. but really depends on the players you have. the bwm (support) ends up having quite a few goals/chances on goal.

[SCOtoESP]

just used this with liverpool against res won 1-0 72% possesion with 87% completed i used a vision in which you focus completely down the right hand side(due to liverpool not have a speedy left back) will changed though when Jack Robinson develops.going to use this in two more friendlies and league cup, to start with and if successfull maybe in a couple of Premier League games

[Warrenwwr]

my treq has 33 crosses completed (Cr C column)

most of the goals end up being 1v1 with gk though (as defenders get pulled forward, space opens up)

my main dmc has 60 tackles so far (Tck W). he has no pace, showing his age

my dr has made 95 tackles so far. this can be due to decent agg/bravery, but from what ive seen, opposition wingers are forced to cut inside, and he tackles them, at which point the bwm wins the 50-50 ball. high pressing is essential to the success of the tactic.

i placed DC with best jump + heading combo on the opposite side of my most attacking wingback (DL), ie in DCR position. the opposition get to make crosses often from left side, which that DCR simply heads away (120 Hdr W)

the DCL is rotated in and needs pace to cover for the DL. which i lack in squad atm. training 2 youth atm.

my best goalscorer (Dudu) has 14 goals and 54 tackles won o.O . his position is set as AM A. but all 3 AMCs drop deep and put pressure to get back the ball.

gotta keep ur squad rotated also

[Gee_Simpson]

my treq has 33 crosses completed (Cr C column)

most of the goals end up being 1v1 with gk though (as defenders get pulled forward, space opens up)

my main dmc has 60 tackles so far (Tck W). he has no pace, showing his age

my dr has made 95 tackles so far. this can be due to decent agg/bravery, but from what ive seen, opposition wingers are forced to cut inside, and he tackles them, at which point the bwm wins the 50-50 ball. high pressing is essential to the success of the tactic.

i placed DC with best jump + heading combo on the opposite side of my most attacking wingback (DL), ie in DCR position. the opposition get to make crosses often from left side, which that DCR simply heads away (120 Hdr W)

the DCL is rotated in and needs pace to cover for the DL. which i lack in squad atm. training 2 youth atm.

my best goalscorer (Dudu) has 14 goals and 54 tackles won o.O . his position is set as AM A. but all 3 AMCs drop deep and put pressure to get back the ball.

gotta keep ur squad rotated also

Why you got your squad blanked out?

[Warrenwwr]

^^spoilers. bought and sold many players. keeping it tactic related. just mentioned the names of the key players atm.