Should I bother starting a save on FM 2012 or is it too broken?

[milnerpoint]

Get a room we have a good discussion going here

[marty78]

I am now in mid-jan and have 184,000 players. Going to holiday the season now and fingers crossed that when my 72,000 99 year olds retire they are not replaced. Provided I can reach that point without crashes that is. Pray for me.

[hursty2]

Where are people finding how much players are in their game, the search feature only gives you a small amount of those players right?

[AcidBurn]

Where are people finding how much players are in their game, the search feature only gives you a small amount of those players right?

I think they are using FMRTE.

I just used the player search, although it is not all the players in the game adding leagues you can see that it has added a whole load of players to the save.

[scott MUFC]

geniescout tell yous as well.

sometimes they have a contract buyout which you can see.

they should give us an option to "remove unattached rubbish"

[marty78]

I think they are using FMRTE.

I just used the player search, although it is not all the players in the game adding leagues you can see that it has added a whole load of players to the save.

Yes FMRTE. It is my only choice to try to remove players and keep my save playable. The player search can give an idea of numbers though if you have a high scouting knowledge and don't want to download a third party program.

[hursty2]

I started with;

England --> Npower League 1

Spain --> Liga Adelante

France --> Ligue 2

Germany --> Bundesliga 2

Italy --> Serie B

And I have since added the Eredivisie, all Swiss leagues, all Danish leagues and removed League 1, and the lowest league from Denmark, 11 years in.

My player search gives me a result of 17,319 players and my new installation of genie scout says I've got 82,539 players.

[BiggusD]

I started with;

England --> Npower League 1

Spain --> Liga Adelante

France --> Ligue 2

Germany --> Bundesliga 2

Italy --> Serie B

And I have since added the Eredivisie, all Swiss leagues, all Danish leagues and removed League 1, and the lowest league from Denmark, 11 years in.

My player search gives me a result of 17,319 players and my new installation of genie scout says I've got 82,539 players.

Well if that is the ratio between player search and genie scout true count, I have 400 000 players instead of the 65000 players I started out with and the 125000 that I find using player search now, after just adding Scottish 1st division... No wonder the game crashes...

[Erimus1876]

Is Genie Scout finding all players, including 'greys'. As far as I know FMRTE only finds proper players and doesn't list greys. Could this be why Genie Scoiut is returning a much larger number?

[milnerpoint]

ive got genie at home but ive never used it, ill check and see what numbers it gives back from my save.

[hursty2]

The figure I gave for player search is only low because my scouting network is poor.

And that's the first time I've ever used genie so I wouldn't have a clue what it is showing.

[AcidBurn]

I think the problem is much bigger when adding leagues from a different continent.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah it seems from this thread that people who have added leagues from other continents are finding the biggest increases, i might branch off my save and add Brazil or something and holiday it for a while and see what numbers it throws up. Although holidaying a season 25 in takes quite a bit of time.

[marty78]

Brazil might well be worth checking out being a large nation with a large player count. It was one of the leagues I added, top to bottom aswell.

[Marinho]

Yeah it seems from this thread that people who have added leagues from other continents are finding the biggest increases.

I added only the Netherlands to a game that had only european countries set as playable. Resulted in nearly 100% increase within a bit over 1 season. 60K ----> 115K.

And as i stated, the numbers are distributed among all countries. English regens double, brazilian regens double, doesn´t matter. To me it seems as if the games basically assumes that you added every available country and league and creates regens accordingly to compensate, it adds most players to playable leagues.

One thing i could see contributing is the DB setting of "add players for top division clubs" which i had on.

The initial increase when adding a league is real players (not regens !) but again the game does that for every country and not just the one you added.

Again, i added the Netherlands and the game "unlocked" 800 real english players (count went from 1.8k to 2.6k) and then in march generated 2000 regens. And you can go down the list and see similar things with french, german, spanish, brazilian or whatever players.

[marty78]

One thing i could see contributing is the DB setting of "add players for top division clubs" which i had on.

Think I did too. Maybe both together are causing this?

[milnerpoint]

I added only the Netherlands to a game that had only european countries set as playable. Resulted in nearly 100% increase within a bit over 1 season. 60K ----> 115K.

And as i stated, the numbers are distributed among all countries. English regens double, brazilian regens double, doesn´t matter. To me it seems as if the games basically assumes that you added every available country and league and creates regens accordingly to compensate, it adds most players to playable leagues.

One thing i could see contributing is the DB setting of "add players for top division clubs" which i had on.

The initial increase when adding a league is real players (not regens !) but again the game does that for every country and not just the one you added.

Again, i added the Netherlands and the game "unlocked" 800 real english players (count went from 1.8k to 2.6k) and then in march generated 2000 regens. And you can go down the list and see similar things with french, german, spanish, brazilian or whatever players.

Thats strange, it must be tied into the add players for top division clubs because i have added more leagues than you have and still have much less players.

[Neil Brock]

We are aware of this issue and we are looking into it. At this stage I'm afraid I don't know anything further but as said it is something we're investigating. Thanks.

[Erimus1876]

I added only the Netherlands to a game that had only european countries set as playable. Resulted in nearly 100% increase within a bit over 1 season. 60K ----> 115K.

And as i stated, the numbers are distributed among all countries. English regens double, brazilian regens double, doesn´t matter. To me it seems as if the games basically assumes that you added every available country and league and creates regens accordingly to compensate, it adds most players to playable leagues.

Same on mine. Only European countires loaded, only European countries added and removed (Holland, Spain, Italy first divisions). 19,000 players at game start, 225,000 ten seasons later with less leagues active in 2021 that I had in 2011.

One thing i could see contributing is the DB setting of "add players for top division clubs" which i had on.

I never had this set. My initial database was the basic one, medium size, no extra players loaded.

Incidently, I've just set up a test game and set as playable just England and viewable about a dozen European countries.

Game crashes every time I try to play a match So is it just playable leagues that causes the crashes, or do view only leagues have something to do with it too?

[milnerpoint]

I just cant figure out why your games are producing masses of players, but mines is not?

[Erimus1876]

Did you use a custom made database milner, or just the default SI one?

[milnerpoint]

Just the default one mate, large database with the leagues i said and no added players, it just doesnt seem to make sense that my game 15 years after the last league was added has less players than the ones you guys are running. Is it maybe a big spike that comes down as the game progresses? Ill need to check the numbers again at the end of this season.

Would it make a difference this game was started the day FM came out and not with any of the subsequent patches?

[Erimus1876]

I'm wondering what the common factor is with the saves that are bugged. I used a custom database (England with lower leagues active for the first few seasons on my game). If its only effecting people who used custom databases it may help narrow down the problem a bit, and also give us an idea of what to avoid doing if we start new games.

Would it make a difference this game was started the day FM came out and not with any of the subsequent patches?

You know what, you could be on to something here. I had a good save going before 12.2, and I used the add remove leagues feature in that save and it never crashed at all. The only thing is I never played more than 10 seasons on it like I have with this latest one, so wether it ever got to the point of having too many players in it or not, I don't know, and I wasn't aware of any problems with the add/remove feature at the time so I wasn't using fmrte to check it. Unfortunately I never kept that save.

[AcidBurn]

Mine added the players on the last patch not this new one.

[milnerpoint]

Thats the only thing different i can see from me and you guys, i started that game when FM just came out and i stopped adding and removing leagues before the patch this year. Its the only save i have played on FM12 for more than a week game time.

Would that make a difference or is it just grasping at straws?

[Erimus1876]

I don't know. I'm sure SI will have looked at all the possible causes though. I'm just trying to decide what to do and what not to do when I start a new game.

I think I'll give up on my current save. Even using fmrte to get it playable again seems a waste of time. I've just checked the player count and in the last two weeks of game time 50 new players from Belarus, a country I've never even heard of never mind load into FM, have been generated. And thats just one example from one country. Like I said in an earlier post, its like trying to plug a dam, and I just know over using fmrte will eventually corrupt my save anyway

[marty78]

I am now in June and up to 218,000. I hope july 1st has some good news. My database increased before January update IIRC.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah we're just throwing ideas around really. Hopefully maybe 1 or 2 has helped them but your right they will have thought of anything we have come up with surely.

I would imagine the best thing to do if your starting a new game is load all you can to start of with and avoid adding any more leagues, which sucks because in principle its the best feature ever, but if it corrupts games after a while its not worth the hassle.

I think for the first time in a long time id say poor show SI. If the feature was doing this you should have de-activated it or something during the last update.

[marty78]

Even if this is fixed it is unlikely to be save game compatible I would imagine. Lets just hope they can perfect it for next year.

[hursty2]

I too started the game as soon as it came out.

[Erimus1876]

I am now in June and up to 218,000. I hope july 1st has some good news. My database increased before January update IIRC.

Hows it looking marty? Did you get a mass retirement as expected?

One thing I've noticed with FMRTE is if you leave it on in the background while FM is running and check the player count every now and then, it updates itself automatically. You'll notice new players being generated all the time, not just on the traditional June 21st of each year (England).

Also, not sure if anyone else has noticed this but if FMRTE is loaded at the time your newly added league is about to become active, it'll crash FM. Just a heads up. Happens on mine anyway.

[Erimus1876]

I've just ran a 5 season test without using the add/remove feature, and my database has increased by 32,000 !

Over 6,000 new players and staff are entering the game every season.

No wonder adding extra leagues destroys games sooner rather than later

[marty78]

Hows it looking marty? Did you get a mass retirement as expected?

One thing I've noticed with FMRTE is if you leave it on in the background while FM is running and check the player count every now and then, it updates itself automatically. You'll notice new players being generated all the time, not just on the traditional June 21st of each year (England).

Also, not sure if anyone else has noticed this but if FMRTE is loaded at the time your newly added league is about to become active, it'll crash FM. Just a heads up. Happens on mine anyway.

No didn't seem to work. Past the new season mark and in mid july still have approx 225,000 players. Have given up for now.

[Marinho]

I've just ran a 5 season test without using the add/remove feature, and my database has increased by 32,000 !

Over 6,000 new players and staff are entering the game every season.

No wonder adding extra leagues destroys games sooner rather than later

that´s weird, i´m in 2016 and have asbout 61k players after starting out with 65k. What db setup did you use ?

[Erimus1876]

At game start I had :-

Playable:

England down to level 7

Italy top division

Spain top division

Holland top division

Germany top division

Viewable:

Every other European Nations top divisions plus Argentina's top division and Brazil's top division

Database size: Small (no extra players loaded).

Season 2011 - 35,159 Players, 5,443 Staff

Season 2012 - 38,544 Players, 10,862 Staff

Season 2013 - 44,834 Players, 14,958 Staff

Season 2014 - 49,904 Players, 16,650 Staff

Season 2015 - 55,498 Players, 17,187 Staff

This data shows 20,000 new players entered the game in the first 5 seasons despite me not using the add/remove leagues feature at all during this period, and the total number of people (staff+players) increased by 32,000. Something is seriously wrong here.

I'm now beginning to use the add/remove leagues feature over the next 5 seasons to see what happens to the player and staff count.

[kccircle]

I've just made 48k people on my game free transfers and 48yrs old. Hope they all dont want to be coaches

[Erimus1876]

I've just made 48k people on my game free transfers and 48yrs old. Hope they all dont want to be coaches

I think if you set their reputations to 1, no one will hire them and they'll quit the game.

[kccircle]

Out of interest - how long will they remain clubless before quitting?

[Erimus1876]

I'm not sure. I edited 112,000 players, 50,000 of them left the game after a few months I think, the rest are still in it a season later. Seems to be random.

[Erimus1876]

FMRTE has a retire player feature. I tried to set a preset for it, in theory this will retire any player you want on a specific date, unfortunatley I haven't been able to get it to work.

It'd be ideal for this sort of thing too.

[BiggusD]

At game start I had :-

Playable:

England down to level 7

Italy top division

Spain top division

Holland top division

Germany top division

Viewable:

Every other European Nations top divisions plus Argentina's top division and Brazil's top division

Database size: Small (no extra players loaded).

Season 2011 - 35,159 Players, 5,443 Staff

Season 2012 - 38,544 Players, 10,862 Staff

Season 2013 - 44,834 Players, 14,958 Staff

Season 2014 - 49,904 Players, 16,650 Staff

Season 2015 - 55,498 Players, 17,187 Staff

This data shows 20,000 new players entered the game in the first 5 seasons despite me not using the add/remove leagues feature at all during this period, and the total number of people (staff+players) increased by 32,000. Something is seriously wrong here.

I'm now beginning to use the add/remove leagues feature over the next 5 seasons to see what happens to the player and staff count.

If it is correct that more players are generated than retire, then there would be a peak around ten seasons into the game (where I am now). It will take a few more years before all real players are gone and replaced with regens, at which point the count will probably go down until it stabilizes somewhere. Maybe it isn't a matter of adding leagues at all, but an imbalance in the way AI teams choose players to keep from the youth academy trails every year. The assistant do advice to keep a lot of them "to bolster depth".

[Erimus1876]

If it is correct that more players are generated than retire, then there would be a peak around ten seasons into the game (where I am now). It will take a few more years before all real players are gone and replaced with regens, at which point the count will probably go down until it stabilizes somewhere. Maybe it isn't a matter of adding leagues at all, but an imbalance in the way AI teams choose players to keep from the youth academy trails every year. The assistant do advice to keep a lot of them "to bolster depth".

Thats possible. But I think the newgen to player retirement ratio is broken.

Also I've just removed several leagues from this test save, and no players were removed with them. That makes little sense to me. Why are those players being left in the game when their clubs and leagues have been removed :confused:

Anyway, I've updated my test and started a new thread on this topic since this current thread's title is a little misleading (the discussion morphed into something the OP may not have been inetersted in lol).

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/304195-The-Add-Remove-leagues-problem...?p=7733894#post7733894

[mikewd]

Hi I just came here after a google search

I'm having a similar problem. I'm in 2037 and the player search has become unusable, taking 15 seconds per search, so I'm having to find players in other ways. With a 4.7GHz i7-2700k, SSD and 8GB RAM.

Very much hoping for a fix opposed to just a new game next year, if there is no fix then I consider this entire year's iteration to be permanently bugged and useless.

[Macharius]

The only issue that I've had with FM12 that has put me off have having a proper game is the domestic cup issue where the big clubs of their respective countries aren't fielding proper first teams. I did change the FA cup type in the editor to Club Championship Cup. I think that appeared to make the AI take it more seriously as I noticed Man City fielded a strong team in all their matches - Man Utd / Liverpool included. Though it makes them appear as if they've played a UEFA governed match, not much of a issue if a flavour of realism is returned.

But that's just me and it seems to be a issue that the majority of people can look over, but just play the game and see how it suites you. If it's not in your tastes, wait for FM13.

[marty78]

Hi Mike

I've only had issues in a save where I added leagues mid-save. There is another thread just for this issue(linked below). SI are supposedly looking into so fingers crossed we see a fix.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/304195-The-Add-Remove-leagues-problem...

[obinna]

Too many injuries? There aren't enough injuries.

[mikewd]

I added the Croatian league in-game to get work permits, it just sucks that all my work is kinda useless and I have to start again if I want a game with any speed.

ps. I don't get injury complaints. It happens. Sometimes it sucks but maybe you need more physios? I've got 7 at 20 physiotherapy and only get 2 or 3 serious ones each season.

[Svenc]

Nothing wrong with team talks in my opinion, I started with a low reputation and got a job as Norwich manager the team didn't listen much at first but after a season or so they started to take in what I said. This is how it would work in real life with an inexperienced low reputation manager. Once you have a high reputation team talks are absolutely fine.

Not only that, I was also promoted from "Sunday League player" to being a "World Class manager", a member of club of the selected few elite managers in the database, in the space of two seasons at Bayern. All by winning two German championships, a German Cup and reaching (and losing) the CL final - once. Except for the entire system to be a tad opaque and ambiguous in both feedback and input, I never knew what the fuss was about this particular area of the game anyway. But then I don't blame every single failure in results on a supposedly broken and overpowered morale and team talk system crashing in on my manly tactics that I know would make my team fly all by itself otherwise. It's not as if the AI managers were designed to be a godly entity that never makes mistakes anyway, utilizing press conferences, team talks and personal chats as instant boosts at every turn - they are designed to be prone to error, too - even at the elite level of managers in the game. And as for the injuries: Robben made close to 30 league appearances in the first season of my current save, I have never suffered more than 5 injuries at once so far, but results may vary given the nature of the game, naturally.

My pet peeves with the game tend to be the simple scouting system, the documentation (or lack thereof), the vagueness of some instructions. And what has been said about the engine's defensive behavior, it's inability to simulate team behavior that acts as a unit. FM is also letting you choose both zonal and man-marking, despite it being pointed out by community members that FM's "Man marking" is merely a more rigid form of "zonal marking" - which is equally never or falsely documented by SI.

As for the question that prompted this thread: It's all a matter of perception. You will find flaws surely. However, perceiving the game to be any kind of broken, any version I have played so far, reeks of outright silliness and wanton hyperbole to me.

[cerud]

I'm curious about this now too. I've never had a problem with the add-remove feature yet. I have a career save that I started with quite a few league and nations, and a large database, enough to give me 175 000 players to start with. I've gone 10 years, no problems; however, I remove leagues (lower leagues) off an on as my reputation grows and I know that I won't be managing at that level.

I guess in my case, I have not found the add/remove feature to be broken. I've actually found it to be wonderful.

However, I can understand that adding leagues would invariably add players to the database. This makes sense. I would say, know the limitations of your machine and add slowly if you're wanting to. Or do like me...add all leagues in the beginning where you could feasibly want to go and as you progress, start dropping off the lower ones that you will not go to. Seems to work for me.

[marty78]

There is an issue with add/remove in that the player increases can be massive. I went from about 30k to 220k in ten seasons adding about four leagues. I was ten years into my save and had deleted all the leagues except the Premier League and still had 220k players. Anyway there is another thread on the issue and it is apparently being looked at. No-one seems sure as to what causes it exactly and I only have a problem in that one save and many have not had a problem.

My save is not even crashing but takes about one and a half hours to process an international break. I have not got that kind of patience. I would recommend starting with leagues running just in case although there is nothing to say if yuo do add leagues you will definately have a problem.