Positioning Issue in regards to Goalkeepers

[avex]

I feel that every keeper in the world having their positioning dropping to 1 (or thereabouts) negatively affects my game. A stat that always has been considered important. A stat that is key in real life. It obviously matter in game, otherwise why would assistants suggest doing focus training on it? Why do I never get advised to do focus training on my keeper's free kick taking or first touch? Because they aren't important. Positioning is and always has been as far as we're aware. If this has been changed, are you really OK with that? And if it has been changed, it brings me back to keepers that have good positioning IRL and in the game (reina for example), yet are only average at positioning themselves in the match engine because their command of area is average (13 for reina)

I think that comes because there's a lack of communication between SI Games and the researchers.

[Ackter]

Ok, now that you've learned this, how exactly has the game actually changed?

[THOG]

No, it doesn't.

Still needs to be fixed though.

Well, it depends on what weighting "Positioning" has in the CA calculations and, if it is still weighted as "4", if researchers were aware of the attribute's irrelevance when assigning attributes to keepers. The fact that the attribute consistently drops would suggest that it is, in fact, weighted (and thus, considered "key" in CA calculations, not just the tactic creator graphics). In that case, this has some fairly big implications for certain teams (Liverpool being one example) if it turns out one of their star players are significantly less effective due to researcher misconceptions.

again, what if you are playing a sweeper keeping frequently on the edge, and outside your box, then it is. its certainly not command of area

But again, then it will have an effect on AI managers who use an attacking mentality with lots of creative freedom, particularly with eccentric GKs who have a tendency to rush out.

[Maran]

Yes well we are being told that positioning doesn't matter and that it is in fact command of area that relates to a keepers positioning. Yet as far as I'm aware, command of area relates to a keepers likelihood to come and attempt to collect (command) the ball when it is being crossed, or played into the box in general.

Simple fact is, if what they say is true, and positioning doesn't matter, then there is a flaw. Still though, this is getting away from the fact that the positioning stat still drops and drops and drops... no other stat displays this level of decline.

[Maran]

Ok, now that you've learned this, how exactly has the game actually changed?

I don't know, because I have stopped playing. If you read my posts you'll see why. It's a personal choice but I feel it is unplayable.

[Sengkang]

How exactly does it cause an effect? Every single keeper still behaves in the same way as they did - the only problem is that the assistant occasionally makes a bad suggestion and one of the highlights on the attribute screens is wrong.

Excuse me? It has profound effects. Do not mask this problem as a graphic designer highlighted a wrong attribute as key when it should have been a key attribute.

[Jack Rudd]

Simple fact is, if what they say is true, and positioning doesn't matter, then there is a flaw. Still though, this is getting away from the fact that the positioning stat still drops and drops and drops... no other stat displays this level of decline.

That's the natural behaviour of an attribute that's highly weighted in CA calculations - if it goes untrained, a lot of CA is redistributed away from it and towards the attributes that are being trained.

[themadsheep2001]

Well, it depends on what weighting "Positioning" has in the CA calculations and, if it is still weighted as "4", if researchers were aware of the attribute's irrelevance when assigning attributes to keepers. The fact that the attribute consistently drops would suggest that it is, in fact, weighted (and thus, considered "key" in CA calculations, not just the tactic creator graphics). In that case, this has some fairly big implications for certain teams (Liverpool being one example) if it turns out one of their star players are significantly less effective due to researcher misconceptions.

But again, then it will have an effect on AI managers who use an attacking mentality with lots of creative freedom, particularly with eccentric GKs who have a tendency to rush out.

There are far fewer "sweepker keepers" used by the AI than "regular keepers", however the effect for the latter is much bigger. So maybe the problem isnt gamebreaking, but it still is fairly large issue

[Sengkang]

I think that comes because there's a lack of communication between SI Games and the researchers.

It is more than that. Sorry but you really have to read the whole thread.

[Lazaru5]

There are far fewer "sweepker keepers" used by the AI than "regular keepers", however the effect for the latter is much bigger. So maybe the problem isnt gamebreaking, but it still is fairly large issue

It's a huge issue... SI are only saying it's not important to disguise just how serious a fault this is.

The way people are trying to say "it's not important cos Brock says so" need to look at the evidence...

If an attribute is "unimportant" for a particular player's position then it is weighted at 0 or 1 for training purposes - i.e. costs very little CA. The various "key" attributes for a particular position have always been more heavily weighted than other, less important attributes.

For many years FM has been using the same match engine with just minor tweaks.

The training of attributes relate to the match engine inextricably, it can't work without them.

If you don't train positioning it drops rapidly - ergo it needs to be trained.

Positioning is highlighted in-game as key to the position of Goal-keeper, always has been... suddenly it's not important?

Someone is telling porky-pies and being ably helped... we've been here before...

It's broken! pure, plain and simple

[Sengkang]

How exactly does it cause an effect? Every single keeper still behaves in the same way as they did - the only problem is that the assistant occasionally makes a bad suggestion and one of the highlights on the attribute screens is wrong.

Ackter,

I am not trying to be annoying or rant. But you seem to understate the problem by suggesting that "assistant occassionally makes a bad suggestion" and of of the highlights on the attributes screen is wrong.

[Indi75]

Is there an option to hide the 300-odd posts of rhetoric from Sengkang in order to see the actual discussion around this?

Obviously there's a minor cosmetic issue along with a training schedule issue (bug, if you must), but every second post is a jingoistic effort to incite uproar where feedback and common sense should prevail.

Why does this have to nbe such a ****in' drama for some people?

[Butters76]

Sengkang, you have bigger things to worry about. Your wife is stuck at the airport still waiting for you to pick her up.

You're a dead man

[themadsheep2001]

It's a huge issue... SI are only saying it's not important to disguise just how serious a fault this is.

The way people are trying to say "it's not important cos Brock says so" need to look at the evidence...

If an attribute is "unimportant" for a particular player's position then it is weighted at 0 or 1 for training purposes - i.e. costs very little CA. The various "key" attributes for a particular position have always been more heavily weighted than other, less important attributes.

For many years FM has been using the same match engine with just minor tweaks.

The training of attributes relate to the match engine inextricably, it can't work without them.

If you don't train positioning it drops rapidly - ergo it needs to be trained.

Positioning is highlighted in-game as key to the position of Goal-keeper, always has been... suddenly it's not important?

Someone is telling porky-pies and being ably helped... we've been here before...

It's broken! pure, plain and simple

I am looking at the evidence, of which there isnt much. Even sengkang's somewhat flawed experiment showed there wasnt too much difference. So its hard to be 100% in either way.

[Ackter]

I'm not understating it - I genuinely don't think it's a big problem and it has no effect on my enjoyment of the game.

[Indi75]

Not sure I've spotted the issue yet either, so what exactly am I looking for? My keepers are training fine? :S

[Ackter]

Not sure I've spotted the issue yet either, so what exactly am I looking for? My keepers are training fine? :S

Their positioning should be dropping because they're not being trained in it by default.

[Ackter]

Though I've just checked in my game (Player search for GKs and sort by positioning) and the first page of results shows between 17 and 14 so it doesn't seem to be dropping that much anyway?

[Sengkang]

How exactly does it cause an effect? Every single keeper still behaves in the same way as they did - the only problem is that the assistant occasionally makes a bad suggestion and one of the highlights on the attribute screens is wrong.

You see, this game is a sim about football management of the real life football management. How often have you hear commentators IRL comment on the excellent positioning of that GK who makes a timely save at the right place (is this not due in a big part to his positioning)?

FM has always been trying to be as realistic as possible. Every year I hear "even more realistic than ever".

It has now become very obvious, someone or a group of people at SI do treat Positioning for a GK as a key attribute. It would otherwise, never had been highlighted by a graphic artist or a programmer from SI or whoever built the game. They must think and know positioning matters to a GK. Why then, would they not 'wrongly' (in your words) highlight the other attributes but positioning?

Much has been said that it is a defensive attribute. Which GK doesn't need that defensive attribute IRL? Shouldn't the best football management sim reflect that?

We are then being told, positioning actually doesn't matter. And as conducted in my brief testing, it really doesn't matter whether it is 1 or 20. How does it affect the way the game is played you ask. It affects because I take the decision to decide that the key attribute highlighted as a contributing factor to buy/sell or relate to real life football. How can you not understand it?

Ask anyone. ask your database editors. Do they think positioning for GK is important? DO they know, when they assign a certain number to a keeper of the club and player, when they put in 16, it doesn't matter, when they key in 4, it doesn't matter?

Have you asked them?

Every single keeper still behaves in the same way they did. So? I make the decision to use him over another keeper with inferior positioning attribute. And again, it is highlighted in the game!!!!!!!! How can you now say "one of the highlights on the attribute screens is wrong"???????

[Lazaru5]

Though I've just checked in my game (Player search for GKs and sort by positioning) and the first page of results shows between 17 and 14 so it doesn't seem to be dropping that much anyway?

check it in 5 seasons

[Ackter]

check it in 5 seasons

I'm 10 seasons in already (I have no life).

[avex]

It is more than that. Sorry but you really have to read the whole thread.

I was referring just to the Reina example. Maybe the engine doesn't take positioning in consideration and uses another goalkeeper hability instead, and maybe researcheres don't know that and stats are not distributed according to what the engine uses, but to what logic says.

[Lazaru5]

I'm 10 seasons in already (I have no life).

seconded

how many of the higher numbers belong to non-regens?

[Ackter]

seconded

how many of the higher numbers belong to non-regens?

Shut it.

Five of them are over the age of 30.

[THOG]

Obviously there's a minor cosmetic issue along with a training schedule issue (bug, if you must)

For me, the bigger concern is that there is an extensive data issue resulting from researchers possibly being unaware of Positioning's irrelevance for keepers. If this is the case, there are a lot of key players in the game who have been poorly designed, thus compromising the integrity of the simulation, particularly for people who enjoy playing certain teams (again, Liverpool).

Secondarily (but related), there is a realism issue in Positioning being weighted as a key attribute and, thus, dropping rapidly and causing CA to be quickly redistributed among other trained attributes, potentially altering the original work of the researchers in a way that doesn't realistically reflect those players' likely near-term development.

I'm not understating it - I genuinely don't think it's a big problem and it has no effect on my enjoyment of the game.

But if you want to play your favorite team and it turns out that their star keeper stinks due to much of his CA being mistakenly pumped into Positioning when it should go into Command of Area and Rushing Out... then this is kind of annoying.

[Sengkang]

I'm not understating it - I genuinely don't think it's a big problem and it has no effect on my enjoyment of the game.

You seriously think positioning isn't important for a GK? I can force myself to accept that to play the game.

Then, my question to you is, how do you determine which attribute is highlighted wrongly for the rest of the attributes, for the rest of the positions that are considered irrelevant in the match engine??

[Ackter]

But if you want to play your favorite team and it turns out that their star keeper stinks due to much of his CA being mistakenly pumped into Positioning when it should go into Command of Area and Rushing Out... then this is kind of annoying.

My "star" keeper is Steve Harper

[Sengkang]

For me, the bigger concern is that there is an extensive data issue resulting from researching being aware of Positioning's irrelevance for keepers. If this is the case, there are a lot of key players in the game who have been poorly designed, thus compromising the integrity of the simulation, particularly for people who enjoy playing certain teams (again, Liverpool).

Secondarily (but related), there is a realism issue in Positioning being weighted as a key attribute and, thus, dropping rapidly and causing CA to be quickly redistributed among other trained attributes, potentially altering the original work of the researchers in a way that doesn't realistically reflect those players' likely near-term development.

But if you want to play your favorite team and it turns out that their star keeper stinks due to much of his CA being mistakenly pumped into Positioning when it should go into Command of Area and Rushing Out... then this is kind of annoying.

And I've not even gone into the CA part.

[Indi75]

Just for argument, a couple of observations:

In the editor, positioning is not listed with the GK attributes, it's up with the outfield ones?

There are 121 keepers with PA's over 150 who's positioning is less than 10. Are we to assume all the researchers are wrong?

There are only 168 keepers in the game who's positioning is over 15, for a key attribute that seems low.

Just my two pence worth. Not affecting my game.

[Ackter]

You seriously think positioning isn't important for a GK? I can force myself to accept that to play the game.

Then, my question to you is, how do you determine which attribute is highlighted wrongly for the rest of the attributes, for the rest of the positions that are considered irrelevant in the match engine??

No, I think positioning is important, but ever since Santi Canizares being so awesome in the early CMs it's not something I've ever really cared about. I've always rated performances above attributes. How they play is far more important than how they look.

[Sengkang]

I was referring just to the Reina example. Maybe the engine doesn't take positioning in consideration and uses another goalkeeper hability instead, and maybe researcheres don't know that and stats are not distributed according to what the engine uses, but to what logic says.

Ok, understand you. Then what else in a key attribute is not in consideration?

Click on player and look at the highlighted attributes under key attributes.. A few are highlighted so now, how then do i determine which is key attribute that is match engine vital? When positioning is highlighted yet confirmed by SI that it has no effect whatsoever in the match engine --> no effect to the game?

[Sengkang]

I am like you. Positioning is never what i cared about. But do you see the issue here..??

Obviously someone at SI thinks positioning is impt and therefore highlighted it. It is not a casual mistake. It is because IRL positioning is impt.

Besides the CA distribution, there is also the question of what other highlighted key attributes don't matter to the match engine.

[Butters76]

I can live with positioning not being important for GK, although it's unrealistic.

But whats next? we find out finishing isn't important for strikers, only composure. Coz you see lots of strikers with finishing 10-13 scoring tons of goals.

[Ackter]

I'm not saying it's not an issue, it's not as important as people are making out.

The game remains balanced and that's the important thing.

[Maran]

So reina having a 4 star coach rating, based on his CA of course, is actually inaccurate because 18 points (or the CA equivalent) are being wasted on a 'non-important' attribute? So basically, reina is a 3 or 3.5 star keeper, because a chunk of his CA isn't even used in the match engine! Yet, while his full CA is not being employed in match, it will be relevant in the transfer mkt. if a club wants to buy him they will base their valuation of him on his CA (this is what the game looks at wen determining AI shortlists). Therefore, in buying reina for 20 million because he has X CA points, the team is actually only getting a player with X (-18) CA.

This is based on positioning not being important. This is one of the few reasons that this bug has made the game unplayable for me.

[Ackter]

Except it doesn't apply to just Reina - it applies to every single keeper. The game remains balanced, it's not a big problem.

[THOG]

In the editor, positioning is not listed with the GK attributes, it's up with the outfield ones?

Unless I'm mistaken, most Mental attributes still matter for keepers with the exception of "Off the Ball" and "Positioning," so it doesn't necessarily matter that it's not listed among the GK attributes. Concentration, Anticipation and Decisions are still, presumably, extremely important attributes for keepers.

There are 121 keepers with PA's over 150 who's positioning is less than 10. Are we to assume all the researchers are wrong?

Hopefully, most researchers have it correctly (though I would look at CA rather than PA since PA would include a lot of youngsters), though if there are some who made a mistake about Positioning, the researchers should be informed and the proper corrections should be made.

There are only 168 keepers in the game who's positioning is over 15, for a key attribute that seems low.

Generally, there are very few truly quality keepers, but again, the question is whether Positioning is weighted as a key attribute. If it's still weighted as a key attribute, this would suggest that those researchers putting a lot of CA into their keepers' "Positioning" are operating under a misconception that is compromising the verisimilitude of the game world.

[Sengkang]

Just for an example, Carlton Cole, key attributes as Attacking Role - Advanced Forward (You can only choose Attack) lists the following as being highlighted;

Crossing/Dribbling/Finishing/Heading + Anticipation/Composure/Flair/Off The Ball/Work Rate + Pace

No doubt each attribute will carry more weight than the other in a given role but..

If the GK's position can be rendered irrelevant (it being highlighted as a key attribute), what else are irrelevant?

If i would play the game in at a discount, I would at least want to know what key attributes are irrelevant. This then is the issue. What are relevant in the match engine, in a game?

And this particular positioning for GK affects greatly how your keeper progress - if it is a has a fix, why would I want his position to increase when it has absolutely no use in a match?????

So... what other attributes are key, but irrelevant in FM?

[Jay96]

I've not had much experience of this problem.... yet.

But the positioning stat is one of the most important for any goalkeeper IMO.

[Sengkang]

Except it doesn't apply to just Reina - it applies to every single keeper. The game remains balanced, it's not a big problem.

And your game could be enjoyed like that??

[Ackter]

Yes. Easily.

[Sengkang]

So reina having a 4 star coach rating, based on his CA of course, is actually inaccurate because 18 points (or the CA equivalent) are being wasted on a 'non-important' attribute? So basically, reina is a 3 or 3.5 star keeper, because a chunk of his CA isn't even used in the match engine! Yet, while his full CA is not being employed in match, it will be relevant in the transfer mkt. if a club wants to buy him they will base their valuation of him on his CA (this is what the game looks at wen determining AI shortlists). Therefore, in buying reina for 20 million because he has X CA points, the team is actually only getting a player with X (-18) CA.

This is based on positioning not being important. This is one of the few reasons that this bug has made the game unplayable for me.

This and what I had put out, really changes the whole aspect of the game. To those who read and understood that this is not about positioning attribute to the GK and more about how the FM works with regards to us playing it, i thank you for understanding the complex issue at hand!

*exasperated

[KUBI]

It's football, don't linger on those numbers all the time. If you watch a match you may spot, why one goalkeeper is better than the other. The numbers are just there to give you a hint, but there are no numbers in real football. Do you really think that +1 or -1 makes the difference in every match? If goalkeeper one has 5 in positioning and goalkeeper two has 10, but goalkeeper one's morale is high and he likes to play for you, while goalkeeper two don't like you and his morale is terrible - which one would probably play better in the coming matches?

[Neil Brock]

I said it isn't 'that' important, I didn't say it wasn't important at all. There's a number of stats which add up to be important for a goalkeeper, it is one of many. It's not as 'important' as reflexes or handling but yeah it does make a difference. Just not as big a difference as some people in this thread seem to be thinking.

[Sengkang]

Yes. Easily.

So you think IRL positioning does matter and yet when it doesn't matter for your FM (match engine doesn't care abt GK positioning), it is enjoyable for you. And you don't really mind the CA distribution to up a attribute that is useless and you don't care whether SI had intended for positioning to be a key attribute for a GK

You play your game and you enjoy it. Is that right..?

[Ackter]

Yes. I play my game and enjoy it.

[KUBI]

So you think IRL positioning does matter and yet when it doesn't matter for your FM (match engine doesn't care abt GK positioning), it is enjoyable for you. And you don't really mind the CA distribution to up a attribute that is useless and you don't care whether SI had intended for positioning to be a key attribute for a GK

You play your game and you enjoy it. Is that right..?

Common, you did plaster this thread already. Everybody knows that positioning is vital for you, that's because you stay in this holy thread, I guess.

[THOG]

Except it doesn't apply to just Reina - it applies to every single keeper. The game remains balanced, it's not a big problem.

I disagree. If Positioning is still weighted as a key attribute for keepers, then this "bug" applies disproportionately to Reina meaning that, if you want the game world to accurately reflect the real world, the game world is unrealistically balanced against Liverpool (and other teams potentially researched under this misconception). This has the following effects:

1) The game is unrealistic (because some keepers were mistakenly designed and are less effective than intended)

2) Some AI managers will be mistakenly fielding relatively poor keepers since the AI uses CA as part of its decision-making process and some keepers have lots of CA invested in a useless attribute

3) Some teams will be wasting transfer funds or receiving unrealistically high transfer funds for relatively poor keepers since, again, CA can affect a player's value and certainly affects scouting reports

I said it isn't 'that' important, I didn't say it wasn't important at all. There's a number of stats which add up to be important for a goalkeeper, it is one of many. It's not as 'important' as reflexes or handling but yeah it does make a difference. Just not as big a difference as some people in this thread seem to be thinking.

And in that case, players who are supposed to have an advantage due to high positioning (Reina) are going to be disproportionately affected by this bug.

Is Positioning still weighted as heavily as Aerial Ability, Command of Area, etc? If so, should we conclude that these attributes don't matter that much either?

[Sengkang]

I said it isn't 'that' important, I didn't say it wasn't important at all. There's a number of stats which add up to be important for a goalkeeper, it is one of many. It's not as 'important' as reflexes or handling but yeah it does make a difference. Just not as big a difference as some people in this thread seem to be thinking.

Thank you for clarifying. Sorry for misreading. But doesn't your input says it doesn't affect in a match?

[Maran]

Except it doesn't apply to just Reina - it applies to every single keeper. The game remains balanced, it's not a big problem.

Not every single keeper has their strongest attribute completely disregarded in the match engine. Without his positioning he is average.

And you arent seeing my point. The game is not balanced when the AI will buy a keeper for lots of money due to his high CA (large chunk of which is 'wasted' on an irrelavent attribute) wen I can buy a keeper Of equal abilty for a lot cheaper because of his lower CA (lets say theyre stats are identical apart from low positioning in the keeper i bought for cheap and high pos in AI's new expesive keeper)