Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 QPR's Paddy kenny - POSITIONING IS MASKED! WHAT AN IDIOT I AM!!!! Conceded just 3 in 3 games compared to VIlla's Given, 8 conceded in 3 games. Given's positioning has also increased to 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOG Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Really? I judge all my player purchases on actually watching the players play in the 3D engine, and then take a look at their match ratings. If you have time to actually watch through enough hours of AI matches to arrive at a reasonable judgment of a player's skill in every area on which a player in their position needs to be judged (enough, that is, so that you have a large enough sample size to confidently factor out extraneous factors like overall team morale, teammate performances, opponent quality and sheer luck of the number generator), that is great for you, but some of us have jobs and families and only get to play the game for about an hour each day... in which case, attributes provide a necessary (and IMO, more realistic, given the obvious visual limitations of the ME) shorthand for closely examining players on the training ground and via match footage. EDIT: And just to be sure, I am not being snarky, I am just honestly speaking from the perspective of a player in my position (i.e., someone with relatively limited time to invest in the game). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Given conceded 2 away to tottenham, lost 3-1 at home to man city and conceded another 3 at home to man utd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Doubtful... did you change any other attributes or CA/PA when you changed positioning to 1? If you didn't then it could increase as a normal game balancing mechanism... Nope. Only changed positioning since it is the point of friendly contention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Guys, i will go on holiday longer and post more. do give me a while as i have yet to shower and all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Doubtful... did you change any other attributes or CA/PA when you changed positioning to 1? If you didn't then it could increase as a normal game balancing mechanism... I can send u my edited database. just 5 changes, all with regards to positioning Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Alright, set to come back only in July 2012. Get back to you guys soon. I am eager to know too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blanchflower1 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 We are doing what we can to fix it, but I do have to say it far from makes the game unplayable. Fair enough the goalkeepers stats may drop slightly, but if you keep your training schedule on default then it's the same from every team across the game. Everyone on an even playing field. As said though, we are very much looking into this issue. Well this is what I like about SI. Unlike major developers like EA who take months to fix a bug in the Sims 3 game, SI is working very hard to fix this. Granted that developing a game isn't easy. It is not easy or near impossible to release a bug free game nowadays but the follow up attitude to fix the bugs is what counts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 If you have time to actually watch through enough hours of AI matches to arrive at a reasonable judgment of a player's skill in every area on which a player in their position needs to be judged (enough, that is, so that you have a large enough sample size to confidently factor out extraneous factors like overall team morale, teammate performances, opponent quality and sheer luck of the number generator), that is great for you, but some of us have jobs and families and only get to play the game for about an hour each day... I'm not saying attributes are pointless, I'm just saying that they aren't the only indication you can use to decide whether a player is good enough or not. A simple glance at his average rating gives you a pretty good indication, and a good starting point. To me, attributes are most useful when looking for specific player types. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Well this is what I like about SI. Unlike major developers like EA who take months to fix a bug in the Sims 3 game, SI is working very hard to fix this. Granted that developing a game isn't easy. It is not easy or near impossible to release a bug free game nowadays but the follow up attitude to fix the bugs is what counts. Yeah credits to SI for giving such great after release support. But few things could have done differently, we could use a little more information than "we are working on it", and Brock in my opinion gives a bit arrogant statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOG Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I'm not saying attributes are pointless, I'm just saying that they aren't the only indication you can use to decide whether a player is good enough or not. A simple glance at his average rating gives you a pretty good indication, and a good starting point.To me, attributes are most useful when looking for specific player types. Sure, and I agree with that, I use match ratings myself to get a general sense of a player's consistency and ability to handle pressure situations... but my point is that it's important for the meaning of attributes to be very clear because they are meant to reflect judgments that a manager would make in real life. For example, if I watch Petr Cech in real life come off his line and catch a cross while beating a player at an aerial challenge, I basically know exactly what happened. I can say to myself, "Both players made a huge effort to get to that but Cech just has those really long arms." In FM, however, I see two stickmen jump near one another with the GK stick man ending up with the ball. It's not immediately clear what really just happened. Maybe it was a question of Determination and the forward went at it lazily, maybe it was Bravery and the forward chickened out as Cech was flying towards him, maybe it was Decisions and the forward jumped at the wrong time, maybe it was just Cech's long arms... I can't really know and not only is it important for me to get a sense of what probably happened from the attributes, I need to know exactly what the attributes mean so I can make that estimate. And since I don't have a lot of time to watch matches other than my own, I need attributes to model my virtual self spending 4/5 hours a day with his scouts watching actual matches where my virtual self can make observations like I would in real life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Guys, i will go on holiday longer and post more. do give me a while as i have yet to shower and all. I assume that you have set all matches to 'full detail', if not the results will not have any validity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantralux Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Sure, and I agree with that, I use match ratings myself to get a general sense of a player's consistency and ability to handle pressure situations... but my point is that it's important for the meaning of attributes to be very clear because they are meant to reflect judgments that a manager would make in real life. Well yes, I agree. I'm not saying SI has made the right decision in making the manual vague, I'm just guessing at the reason why every attribute isn't broken down in percentages and exactly how it affects the match engine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Positioning is not a vital attribute for goalkeepers. Take a look at Reina on Norwich' equalizer yesterday and tell me positioning doesn't matter. He is standing too far back and is unable to cut off the cross,had he positioned himself a couple of yards to the front of goal he would have snapped the ball in front of Holt. However,it may not be important in the game ofcourse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Take a look at Reina on Norwich' equalizer yesterday and tell me positioning doesn't matter.He is standing too far back and is unable to cut off the cross,had he positioned himself a couple of yards to the front of goal he would have snapped the ball in front of Holt. However,it may not be important in the game ofcourse. I think he is talking about the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Neil Brock Posted October 23, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 23, 2011 We're looking into this as said. As mantralux said, IN-GAME positioning isn't that important an attribute for goalkeepers in the Match Engine. Despite saying that, it is still something we're looking at getting sorted. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 We're looking into this as said. As mantralux said, IN-GAME positioning isn't that important an attribute for goalkeepers in the Match Engine. Despite saying that, it is still something we're looking at getting sorted. Cheers. Even though theres that same old "we're looking into this" i am glad to hear that in the future positioning are more important for gk, maybe even make it matter for midfielders and strikers too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Neil Brock Posted October 23, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 23, 2011 That won't change, only the training 'problem' will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 That won't change, only the training 'problem' will. Well... Atleast now i dont get fooled that positioning would be a vital attribute fo goalkeeper. (am i correct when assuming that finishing is a vital attribute for striker) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Neil Brock Posted October 23, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 23, 2011 Here's another thing you may not know - High Jumping does absolutely nothing for a goalkeeper Their 'jumping' comes under Aerial Ability... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Here's another thing you may not know - High Jumping does absolutely nothing for a goalkeeper Their 'jumping' comes under Aerial Ability... Yeah i think i knew that, altough you should have added a position ability where the positioning could be placed under Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 I assume that you have set all matches to 'full detail', if not the results will not have any validity. I did i did.. but what is the point right? I'm just curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 As in, achieves nothing even match is in full detail. I just am curious to see position = 1, what the results are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 De Gea had 50 games, 29 conceded and 32 clean sheets when man utd won the EPL in 2011/2012. Nil MOM, rating of 7.06. Positioning attribute in 16 Jan 2014 = 7. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 We're looking into this as said. As mantralux said, IN-GAME positioning isn't that important an attribute for goalkeepers in the Match Engine. Despite saying that, it is still something we're looking at getting sorted. Cheers. Yeah, cheers to that!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Paddy Kenny conceded 81 goals in 37 games for QPR in a season where they were relegated (2011/2012). He had 9 clean sheets and a rating of 6.66. I got sacked and his positioning attribute is masked. My apologies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Given conceded 45 goals in 39 appearances. 12 clean sheets and a rating of 6.94. His positioning is 1 in Jan 2014. He is now behind brad guzan in villa. 2nd season for Given = 53 conceded in 25 apps. 9 clean sheets and rating of 6.82. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 No freak results for Villa in their first season. All losses are like 1-0s, 2-0s. Almost the same for the 2nd season just that Villa lost 4-0 on 3 occasions. That doesn't mean anything though. It's just what I saw.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Atherton Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 It's time consuming but for it to be a fair test you need to compare how the keepers performed against good positioning so you'd need to run a second game on the side and compare the ratings between games Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 So.. We can just play the game. Positioning really doesn't mean anything to a keeper. I don't see 5-0s, 6-0s so far. So, It actually isn't a problem. It just "aesthetically" affects me to see the positioning going down. But it doesn't affect game play. I used to hear, when a baby is having hiccups, it affects the parent more than it affects the baby. Think this is case of that. Positioning drop in attribute over the seasons affects us, when we r looking at the negative going graph.. but it doesn't do anything to the performance + game play. And you guys at SI are still gonna fix it. Amazing. Feel my money is worth it in a way. Well, I am just gonna continue my West Ham!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 It's time consuming but for it to be a fair test you need to compare how the keepers performed against good positioning so you'd need to run a second game on the side and compare the ratings between games But the test, really, doesn't do anything nor proof anything (= And yup, if i were to test again before I sleep later, I probably won't use Almunia and Friedel. I can't find them in Jan 2014. I feel so.. argh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 And the purpose of testing position = 1 is much more for curiosity. Not to proof or find anything. Just sharing with u guys. So yup, no real adverse result. I may run another season of GKs' positioning = 1. just for the fun of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 It's time consuming but for it to be a fair test you need to compare how the keepers performed against good positioning so you'd need to run a second game on the side and compare the ratings between games Reina, whom I did not edit is a fine choice for comparison I guess. First season, he played 39, conceded 37 and had 18 CS with a rating of 7.24. 6 MOM. 2nd Season, he played 54 (+ champ league)conceded 47 with 21 CS and rating of 7.18. 5 MOM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 So Reina, in my test game, without being edited... isn't much better than the few GKs with positioning = 1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Yeah credits to SI for giving such great after release support. But few things could have done differently, we could use a little more information than "we are working on it", and Brock in my opinion gives a bit arrogant statement. Don't think it is at all arrogant btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Don't think it is at all arrogant btw. By arrogant i meant this: " but I do have to say it far from makes the game unplayable. Fair enough the goalkeepers stats may drop slightly, but if you keep your training schedule on default then it's the same from every team across the game. Everyone on an even playing field." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maran Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 We're looking into this as said. As mantralux said, IN-GAME positioning isn't that important an attribute for goalkeepers in the Match Engine. Despite saying that, it is still something we're looking at getting sorted. Cheers. When I look at Reina's stats, and I see the 18 for positioning, I would judge that (along with his other 15+ attributes) to show his class. But you're saying that positioning isn't even that important? So basically, CA points are being wasted on positioning for Reina (and others with high pos rating). We may aswell cover the positioning attribute when glancing at the highlighted (blue, 16+) attributes? Hmm.. suddenly doesn't look that special a keeper. And, with respect, I don't know why you put the word problem in inverted commas. This is a problem. A big problem. Regardless of whether or not positioning is important for keepers (which if memory serves me, it always has been according to tactical guides etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 By arrogant i meant this: " but I do have to say it far from makes the game unplayable. Fair enough the goalkeepers stats may drop slightly, but if you keep your training schedule on default then it's the same from every team across the game. Everyone on an even playing field." Yes yes and also bearing in mind that positioning for keepers doesn't mean a thing at all. Reina (Unedited) vs Given (positioning = 1), more or less the same. No super low ratings, Given doesn't concede like a hundred goals. It's about the same for the both of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 When I look at Reina's stats, and I see the 18 for positioning, I would judge that (along with his other 15+ attributes) to show his class. But you're saying that positioning isn't even that important? So basically, CA points are being wasted on positioning for Reina (and others with high pos rating). We may aswell cover the positioning attribute when glancing at the highlighted (blue, 16+) attributes? Hmm.. suddenly doesn't look that special a keeper.And, with respect, I don't know why you put the word problem in inverted commas. This is a problem. A big problem. Regardless of whether or not positioning is important for keepers (which if memory serves me, it always has been according to tactical guides etc.) Maran, i think, what is being put across here, is this; Even if there is a fix right now, you and I install it and it works, meaning, Positioning of a GK doesn't decrease anymore and default schedules all do train positioning for GKs, it doesn't make any difference to the GKs' ability. It's only on the 'outside'. Positioning value simply isn't used as a defining factor in how good a GK is, how well he will perform, how nice he will position himself. It only affects us looking at the attribute. And they (many of them from SI) and said they are already looking at it even though it isn't really affecting game play. A fix is still very much appreciated and they already are looking into it. Even Miles said so in a tweet to me. It's just not a major problem for the game to be played. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 But i must stress that I do look at positioning as one of the key attributes for a goal keeper. Pity that FM's match engine doesn't take it into consideration. This si probably how the game was decided since.. I don't know when but yeah. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 When I look at Reina's stats, and I see the 18 for positioning, I would judge that (along with his other 15+ attributes) to show his class. But you're saying that positioning isn't even that important? So basically, CA points are being wasted on positioning for Reina (and others with high pos rating). We may aswell cover the positioning attribute when glancing at the highlighted (blue, 16+) attributes? Hmm.. suddenly doesn't look that special a keeper.And, with respect, I don't know why you put the word problem in inverted commas. This is a problem. A big problem. Regardless of whether or not positioning is important for keepers (which if memory serves me, it always has been according to tactical guides etc.) Now I'm thinking Positioning does ofcourse/probably matter if you set it to 1,or 20,BUT the Positioning attribute is interlinked with other attributes making it less vulnerable when low/or less dominant when high.....I think I'm on to something here! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 When I look at Reina's stats, and I see the 18 for positioning, I would judge that (along with his other 15+ attributes) to show his class. But you're saying that positioning isn't even that important? So basically, CA points are being wasted on positioning for Reina (and others with high pos rating). We may aswell cover the positioning attribute when glancing at the highlighted (blue, 16+) attributes? Hmm.. suddenly doesn't look that special a keeper.And, with respect, I don't know why you put the word problem in inverted commas. This is a problem. A big problem. Regardless of whether or not positioning is important for keepers (which if memory serves me, it always has been according to tactical guides etc.) So, after testing it out and reading up, I guess Brock mentioned problem in inverted commas because it doesn't affect a GK or his performance in the game, during a match in the match engine environment. Not because, it is not a real problem. It's just not a critical problem. It a a problem on the aesthetics aspect of the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Now I'm thinking Positioning does ofcourse/probably matter if you set it to 1,or 20,BUT the Positioning attribute is interlinked with other attributes making it less vulnerable when low/or less dominant when high.....I think I'm on to something here! Nordan, Positioning, 1 or 20 doesn't matter to a GK. I tried it out in a test game. No adverse results nor 150 goals conceded kinda thing. I'm sure attributes are inter-linked.. Like finishing and composure.. Perhaps even decision making but that's another topic for another day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Nordan,Positioning, 1 or 20 doesn't matter to a GK. I tried it out in a test game. No adverse results nor 150 goals conceded kinda thing. I'm sure attributes are inter-linked.. Like finishing and composure.. Perhaps even decision making but that's another topic for another day. It's all good All these years I've played and for GKs Positioning was one of the first I looked at when buying a keeper Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Yeah and all these years we could have been wrong. Ha.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Maybe it is time to give the goalkeepers a completely separate set of attributes from outfield players? It is not like half the attributes that we see matters for them at all, so they could as well be taken off the attribute display in the player screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Even if there is a fix, it's just for our eyes. Doesn't affect a GK's performances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Maybe it is time to give the goalkeepers a completely separate set of attributes from outfield players? It is not like half the attributes that we see matters for them at all, so they could as well be taken off the attribute display in the player screen. May I stir things up a bit.. haha.. What if you play a GK as outfield or an outfield as GK (in sending offs and used all sub)? Haha.. sorry. Bad joke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Or we can just remove positioning from a GK. Best fix. Since positioning doesn't mean a thing to a GK in the world of FM and mach engine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maran Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Positioning doesn't mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (in game), surely. Still unplayable for me until this is fixed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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