Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Yes, indeed! In fact, the information in this thread seems to suggest that even some of FM's most famous gurus are fundamentally mistaken about certain aspects of the match engine. Take, for example, Cleon's legendary sticky thread about how attributes are visually represented in the match engine.In that thread, we get this statement from Cleon: Yet, we now know that Jumping and Positioning have no effect whatsoever for keepers, contradicting a sticky thread that many of the game's most dedicated players have used as a basis for their understanding of tactics, attributes and the match engine. Neil, and your comment since you mentioned Jumping isn't relevant. It still isn't as big a surprise as positioning = nothing to a GK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Big big big big can of worms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 ... marking for defenders......:confused: Probably goes under Positioning Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyprime Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 this has pee'd me right off! not the bug but the fact that jumping and positioning are irrelevant for keepers. I've been playing since the first fm (not cm ) and the two main attributes for keepers i looked for are jumping and positioning. So now i feel i've completely wasted my time in regards to searching, scouting and buying keepers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 In fact I play certain players in the AMC (hole) or DMC with the requirement/needs for the highlighted key attributes.. Now that this one highlighted attribute can mean it is not a factor in a match engine.. What abt the rest of the positions and their roles (Defend, Attack, Support etc)? So, is it just our imagination that height matters to Crouch and Cech but doesn't necessarily matter when it comes to the match engine? Just like positioning matters to most and some at SI but doesn't matter in the match engine? So erm. How do i play the game now? Do I now, have to find out from SI what are relevant and what are not in the match engine or in the game so that at least, I can believe what I am playing is what I am playing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 I have so many questions now. Out of all the attributes of a Goalkeeper, which ones are taken into consideration in any given role? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 May I also ask for a Defender, Midfielder and ST??? Oh crap. I think I've just lost it. Time to go pick my wife up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 My point was, if you have made positioning 1 from a higher figure then you have free'd up some CA points that have to be used, the game will balance them out somehow (not sure how) so positioning could receive a boost in the 'balancing'. Sending me your database would be pointless, I haven't bought FM12...So positioning isn't all that important for goalkeepers in game? What about concentration, or decisions, aerial ability, command of area, communication and agility? See, handling is weighted 5 (or was, the tables are old) but all of the others are weighted 4, including positioning. If "IN-GAME positioning isn't that important an attribute for goalkeepers in the Match Engine", why does it have a training weighting the same as all those attributes that ARE important for a Goalkeeper? PaulC has said that there are no major changes to the Match Engine for FM12 so all of a sudden SI have realised that positioning isn't important to keepers despite the fact that in all of the previous versions it was? hmm... what happened to a bit of honesty? As i was saying before it could depend on whether you are playing a standard GK role (not so important) or a sweeper keeper role (more important) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Want me to rename the thread to something like "Positioning not important for goalkeepers - a discussion"? Should hopefully get more people involved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Pacalypse Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Not that surprising, because i also remember someone saying a few FM's back, that some of the PPM's were just for show. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 As i was saying before it could depend on whether you are playing a standard GK role (not so important) or a sweeper keeper role (more important) But it isn't important at all. Either way. Positioning counts for nothing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Not that surprising, because i also remember someone saying a few FM's back, that some of the PPM's were just for show. As far as I know, they've all been implemented now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Want me to rename the thread to something like "Positioning not important for goalkeepers - a discussion"?Should hopefully get more people involved. That's masking the real topic. It should be "Key attributes displayed in-game has no effect in match engine, confirmed by SI. Positioning (for GK) and WHAT ELSE?!". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 That wouldn't fit though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomatrik Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Want me to rename the thread to something like "Positioning not important for goalkeepers - a discussion"?Should hopefully get more people involved. Or : "we really messed things up this time...sorry guys" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Or "Key Attributes aren't key in match engine, acknowledged by SI". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Sorry for the sarcasm. My apologies. I just love this game, since the CM days. But tsk... it's just.. different now. My sincerest apologies to Ackter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 But it isn't important at all. Either way. Positioning counts for nothing. he said it isnt that important. Its not important if he covers a small area (standard GK), but comes into play if he covers a larger area (Sweeper keeper) If my thinking is right that is Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Or : "we really messed things up this time...sorry guys" Or "We have been messing you up and now it got found out" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaru5 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Or : "we really messed things up this time...sorry guys" hahaha don't hold yer breath... even FM09's debacle was somebody else's fault! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DietSpam Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Big big big big can of worms. Don't open it!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 he said it isnt that important. Its not important if he covers a small area (standard GK), but comes into play if he covers a larger area (Sweeper keeper)If my thinking is right that is No wrong. It has zero importance because.. the match engine doesn't care if positioning is a 1 or 20, in a Standard GK or Sweeper GK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
avex Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I remember having Santiago Cañizares in Valencia in FM06 with "Positioning 2" and being an absolutely awesome goalkeeper. As he retired really soon (I think he was 35 at first season) and I signed another goalkeeper, I never thought too much about that "anomaly". But maybe it was not an anomaly and positioning has never meant anything for goalkeepers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 In fact, attacking GK if you like. Which brings to my mind.. Say a keeper goes up to attack a corner? If positioning isn't considered a factor for a GK, IS IT CONSIDERED FOR AN ATTACKER HEADING THE SAME CORNER AND INSIDE THE SAME MATCH ENGINE??!?!? *GULP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaru5 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 he said it isnt that important. Its not important if he covers a small area (standard GK), but comes into play if he covers a larger area (Sweeper keeper)If my thinking is right that is No, not important receives a weighting of 2 or 1 in the training module, not 4... never 4.. in fact, the only attribute that is listed as "key" for a Goalkeeper in-game is composure and that is(was?) weighted 2, all the others are weighted 4 except handling which is 5... I really do not believe that it would be weighted so highly if it wasn't important... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters76 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Want me to rename the thread to something like "Positioning not important for goalkeepers - a discussion"?Should hopefully get more people involved. Its already the hottest thread on the forum. If you rename it the forum will choke under the pressure Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 No wrong. It has zero importance because.. the match engine doesn't care if positioning is a 1 or 20, in a Standard GK or Sweeper GK. How is that wrong, those are his words. We're looking into this as said. As mantralux said, IN-GAME positioning isn't that important an attribute for goalkeepers in the Match Engine. Despite saying that, it is still something we're looking at getting sorted. Cheers. Not sure you can say the match engine doesnt care Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 I remember having Santiago Cañizares in Valencia in FM06 with "Positioning 2" and being an absolutely awesome goalkeeper. As he retired really soon (I think he was 35 at first season) and I signed another goalkeeper, I never thought too much about that "anomaly". But maybe it was not an anomaly and positioning has never meant anything for goalkeepers. He's a 42yo coach now. I can't check. Haha.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 No, not important receives a weighting of 2 or 1 in the training module, not 4... never 4.. in fact, the only attribute that is listed as "key" for a Goalkeeper in-game is composure and that is(was?) weighted 2, all the others are weighted 4 except handling which is 5... I really do not believe that it would be weighted so highly if it wasn't important... again, what if you are playing a sweeper keeping frequently on the edge, and outside your box, then it is. its certainly not command of area Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govnar1 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 In fact, attacking GK if you like.Which brings to my mind.. Say a keeper goes up to attack a corner? If positioning isn't considered a factor for a GK, IS IT CONSIDERED FOR AN ATTACKER HEADING THE SAME CORNER AND INSIDE THE SAME MATCH ENGINE??!?!? *GULP just instruct him to attack the far post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 I gotta go off. Still hoping for good news. Good luck SI. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coentrao Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 It just makes me wonder which other attributes are not relevant for the ME in other positions, i always look for positioning in GK's and it's useless? Meh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomatrik Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 "But maybe it was not an anomaly and positioning has never meant anything for goalkeepers." Then they should set positioning for every goalkeeper in the game to 10,and remove the option from training asap.Also they need to tell all the ass men to stop advice it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 In fact, attacking GK if you like.Which brings to my mind.. Say a keeper goes up to attack a corner? If positioning isn't considered a factor for a GK, IS IT CONSIDERED FOR AN ATTACKER HEADING THE SAME CORNER AND INSIDE THE SAME MATCH ENGINE??!?!? *GULP No - Positioning has never been an attribute for attacking movement. It's purely defensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
avex Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I remember having Santiago Cañizares in Valencia in FM06 with "Positioning 2" and being an absolutely awesome goalkeeper. As he retired really soon (I think he was 35 at first season) and I signed another goalkeeper, I never thought too much about that "anomaly". But maybe it was not an anomaly and positioning has never meant anything for goalkeepers. Here, from FM2007: http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3208/canizaresgb4.jpg Positioning: 2 And he was an AWESOME goalkeeper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 It just makes me wonder which other attributes are not relevant for the ME in other positions, i always look for positioning in GK's and it's useless? Meh. ive only ever been slightly thrown by keepers, so i've just looked at reflexes, handling, aerial ability, decisions, command of area, everything else seems to work fine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 No - Positioning has never been an attribute for attacking movement. It's purely defensive. Oh ok, thank you for that (= Sorry I jumped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 just instruct him to attack the far post Oh, it is that simple.. haha.. U're right you know. Argh i have to leave home!! see you guys. Not sure how a fix is gonna fix this. argh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Here, from FM2007: http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3208/canizaresgb4.jpgPositioning: 2 And he was an AWESOME goalkeeper. omg. do you not spring clean your hard drives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordan Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I can see it now,my goalie with declining positioning stats starts wandering off during play....having a chat with the linesman,a lie down behind the goal and hanging out by the goalpost....heheh wish I never learned about this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maran Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Sengkang, I think you should stop alluding to the apparent non-importance of positioning for keepers. It has to be important. I can't accept that it isn't. If it isn't, it has to be made to be important. And if it isn't, why is it weighted high, described as key by the game, suggested to be focused upon by coaches, etc. etc. Why have we all been looking for all these years at positioning on a par with reflexes, handling, jumping and anticipation as the attributes that are most important when signing a keeper without ever being told we're wasting our time (with positioning and jumping)!? I think that this is getting to far into a discussion where it is being accepted as fact that positioning does not matter for keepers in game. For me the issue is still a training issue - that positioning cannot be trained for goalkeepers. Until we receive a proper explanation about all of this then that's what I'm concerned with. Even if positioning doesn't matter, it would be silly to have all goalkeepers lose their positioning stat. I mean, creativity doesn't really matter for keepers, but we don't see it dropping across the board. It's a bug. A serious bug. And this is the problem that this thread was started to address. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrjam Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 If positioning is useless for goalkeepers then can some bright spark please explain why the hell the positioning is one of the highlighted attributes for keepers...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candre168 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 So for somebody not bothered to read the whole thread, does it negatively impact my game or not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 No, it doesn't. Still needs to be fixed though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maran Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 So for somebody not bothered to read the whole thread, does it negatively impact my game or not? Yes yes yes (IMO) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Yes yes yes (IMO) How exactly does it cause an effect? Every single keeper still behaves in the same way as they did - the only problem is that the assistant occasionally makes a bad suggestion and one of the highlights on the attribute screens is wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomatrik Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 If positioning is useless for goalkeepers then can some bright spark please explain why the hell the positioning is one of the highlighted attributes for keepers...... Not only that.Also explain why it dont matter that the attributes drop.I started my save :norway january 2011,and my reserve keeper dropped from 13 to 11 in positioning in 8 months.Will he drop to 1 before he retires,and if so....why dont it matter? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candre168 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 This is baffling. Guessing SI will have it sorted soon anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maran Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 How exactly does it cause an effect? Every single keeper still behaves in the same way as they did - the only problem is that the assistant occasionally makes a bad suggestion and one of the highlights on the attribute screens is wrong. I feel that every keeper in the world having their positioning dropping to 1 (or thereabouts) negatively affects my game. A stat that always has been considered important. A stat that is key in real life. It obviously matter in game, otherwise why would assistants suggest doing focus training on it? Why do I never get advised to do focus training on my keeper's free kick taking or first touch? Because they aren't important. Positioning is and always has been as far as we're aware. If this has been changed, are you really OK with that? And if it has been changed, it brings me back to keepers that have good positioning IRL and in the game (reina for example), yet are only average at positioning themselves in the match engine because their command of area is average (13 for reina) Surely this is a fair point? Read my previous posts about this. I definitely see a serious problem which negatively affects the game, to the point to where I can't play it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Sengkang, I think you should stop alluding to the apparent non-importance of positioning for keepers. It has to be important. I can't accept that it isn't. If it isn't, it has to be made to be important. And if it isn't, why is it weighted high, described as key by the game, suggested to be focused upon by coaches, etc. etc. Why have we all been looking for all these years at positioning on a par with reflexes, handling, jumping and anticipation as the attributes that are most important when signing a keeper without ever being told we're wasting our time (with positioning and jumping)!?I think that this is getting to far into a discussion whsuere it is being accepted as fact that positioning does not matter for keepers in game. For me the issue is still a training issue - that positioning cannot be trained for goalkeepers. Until we receive a proper explanation about all of this then that's what I'm concerned with. Even if positioning doesn't matter, it would be silly to have all goalkeepers lose their positioning stat. I mean, creativity doesn't really matter for keepers, but we don't see it dropping across the board. It's a bug. A serious bug. And this is the problem that this thread was started to address. You know what? I think you and i and perhaps a few others the true, real extent of this problem. We can explain, re explain, but u cannot just tell us positioning isn't a factor to be considered. I understand the importance to be serious and firm with regards to this matter. I am at the arrival hall now, at 6.15am my time. I still came back to read abt this issue. Not that I am fanatic abt it. It is just.. so wrong to to tell us positioning is irrelevant. All these years. Words can't really describe ny despair over this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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