Positioning Issue in regards to Goalkeepers

[mantralux]

Brilliant find.. but, so, I have to accept that positioning doesn't really matter for a keeper????

I didn't say it doesn't matter, I just said that it's not a vital attribute = not a game breaker. Other attributes are way more important for a goalkeeper, and I'd even bet that you won't even notice a difference in the game if all goalkeepers would have their Positioning attribute lowered by 2-3 points.

[Sengkang]

Pat Rice knew about this bug, coz just a few days into the game he asked me to put Both my best keepers on individual position training. Good job Pat, good job

Wow. I can never afford him.

So it means... the AI will to a certain extent, recommend AIs to train in positioning.. But that's not a given eh?

[Joga]

I didn't say it doesn't matter, I just said that it's not a vital attribute = not a game breaker. Other attributes are way more important for a goalkeeper, and I'd even bet that you won't even notice a difference in the game if all goalkeepers would have their Positioning attribute lowered by 2-3 points.

Sorry but i have to disagree, positioning for goalkeeper IS a vital attribute.

[mantralux]

Sorry but i have to disagree, positioning for goalkeeper IS a vital attribute.

There's nothing to disagree about - the developers of the game has confirmed it's not a vital attribute.

[Kriss]

Irl we tend to think positioning for GK's is important, but we're thinking of mostly things like set pieces, the game doesn't use it in that way.

It might have a minimal effect if you're using a sweeper/keeper but otherwise it won't.

[Joga]

There's nothing to disagree about - the developers of the game has confirmed it's not a vital attribute.

Oh didn't remember to specify that i meant positioning is a vital attribute for goalkeeper in reality

[Maran]

So the fact that Reina has 18 positioning doesn't mean he is any better a goalkeeper than victor valdes who has 16 positioning?

When I look at Reina (my keeper) I feel good because he has a high positioning rating. I feel its an attribute that makes you confident in your keeper and feel assured that he'll be intelligent in being in the right place

[Sengkang]

Irl we tend to think positioning for GK's is important, but we're thinking of mostly things like set pieces, the game doesn't use it in that way.

It might have a minimal effect if you're using a sweeper/keeper but otherwise it won't.

So.. the point of this post's concerns.. is.. actually.. close to nothing..?

[Chris6543210]

There's nothing to disagree about - the developers of the game has confirmed it's not a vital attribute.

Really? Ok I don't have the greatest of knowledge about keepers in the match engine, but I would have thought positioning is a vital stat no?

Comparing it to real life, you look at the size of the goals compared to the keepers themselves. Keepers positioning is vital in making the target as small as possible for the striker to aim at. Peter Schmeichel was amazing at positioning himself in the right place and spreading his body giving the striker minimal target to aim at. A goalkeeper could have the best reactions and anticipation in the world, but if he can't position himself in the right place then he would not be a great goalkeeper at all as strikers would exploit the gaps in the goal left gaping.

Like I said I don't know how that stat works with goalkeepers in the match engine but from logical reasoning you would think it would have a huge impact

[Joga]

Really? Ok I don't have the greatest of knowledge about keepers in the match engine, but I would have thought positioning is a vital stat no?

Comparing it to real life, you look at the size of the goals compared to the keepers themselves. Keepers positioning is vital in making the target as small as possible for the striker to aim at. Peter Schmeichel was amazing at positioning himself in the right place and spreading his body giving the striker minimal target to aim at. A goalkeeper could have the best reactions and anticipation in the world, but if he can't position himself in the right place then he would not be a great goalkeeper at all as strikers would exploit the gaps in the goal left gaping.

Like I said I don't know how that stat works with goalkeepers in the match engine but from logical reasoning you would think it would have a huge impact

Exactly, but looks like you just cant always use logic.

[THOG]

From the official manual:

Command of Area: "This affects how well the goalkeeper takes charge of his penalty area and works with his defensive line. A goalkeeper who commands his entire box (i.e. has a high rating) will be instinctive and look to take charge of situations, especially coming for crosses (therefore working in tandem with Aerial Ability). Do note, however, that a high rating only increases his penchant for coming for crosses and not necessarily claiming them all."

Positioning: "Positioning is the ability of a player to read a situation and position himself in the best possible position to deal with the unfolding events. Anticipation will help him in the first stage but in terms of his actual positioning, it comes down to this attribute. A higher rating will ensure the player takes up a better position."

These are clearly two completely different meanings with very different applications, the latter suggesting a much broader range of applications for goalkeepers. If the developers have changed the definitions of these attributes, they should refine the manual to state that it solely applies to outfield players.

Exactly, but looks like you just cant always use logic.

Well, that's the whole "black box" issue in a nutshell.

[mantralux]

These are clearly two completely different meanings with very different applications, the latter suggesting a much broader range of applications for goalkeepers. If the developers have changed the definitions of these attributes, they should refine the manual to state that it solely applies to outfield players.

In the manual it doesn't even state that Positioning is a solely defensive attribute (which it is), so I wouldn't try to put too much trust into the manual - it has been constructed in a vague manner intentionally, to give the illusion of immersion between the game and reality.

[mantralux]

So the fact that Reina has 18 positioning doesn't mean he is any better a goalkeeper than victor valdes who has 16 positioning?

Exactly - you would look at the actual goalkeeper attributes to decide which one is the better goalkeeper. Even then, hidden attributes and CA/PA would alter that opinion, and the best way to decide which one is the better keeper is to judge solely on their performances, not on their numbers.

[Sengkang]

Guess.. I will do the testing now.. Evans gotten himself sent off...

*opening editor

I'll put.. half of the EPL's GKs 1 on positioning.. the other half, As usual. Go on holiday and see what happens. Will select equal teams to alter in terms of strength of the premier league team. Otherwise a superior defense might skew the result.

As much as the results can be random, I can easily spot big big results week in, week out.

[Govnar1]

From the official manual:

Command of Area: "This affects how well the goalkeeper takes charge of his penalty area and works with his defensive line. A goalkeeper who commands his entire box (i.e. has a high rating) will be instinctive and look to take charge of situations, especially coming for crosses (therefore working in tandem with Aerial Ability). Do note, however, that a high rating only increases his penchant for coming for crosses and not necessarily claiming them all."

Positioning: "Positioning is the ability of a player to read a situation and position himself in the best possible position to deal with the unfolding events. Anticipation will help him in the first stage but in terms of his actual positioning, it comes down to this attribute. A higher rating will ensure the player takes up a better position."

These are clearly two completely different meanings with very different applications, the latter suggesting a much broader range of applications for goalkeepers. If the developers have changed the definitions of these attributes, they should refine the manual to state that it solely applies to outfield players.

Bizarre but true unfortunately.

[Joga]

In the manual it doesn't even state that Positioning is a solely defensive attribute (which it is), so I wouldn't try to put too much trust into the manual - it has been constructed in a vague manner intentionally, to give the illusion of immersion between the game and reality.

I always thought that positioning is an attribute that affects all players, of course some positions more than other. When you think about it, positioning is quite important for midfielders and strikers, too.

[Sengkang]

Exactly - you would look at the actual goalkeeper attributes to decide which one is the better goalkeeper. Even then, hidden attributes and CA/PA would alter that opinion, and the best way to decide which one is the better keeper is to judge solely on their performances, not on their numbers.

But when I buy a player, I have to look at their numbers (IE the attributes).. No? I get the point that positioning is not considered a vital stat for a GK (contrary to real life or our idea of game-realism) and so, I buy a player with just one star (I can think of Pyatov playing for my Arsenal in FM11 to replace Almunia) and if his ratings (performances) are good, I don't really have to look at his attribute (be it positioning, handling etc etc though I know you buy a gk for his handling, command of area etc etc)?

[Sengkang]

I always thought that positioning is an attribute that affects all players, of course some positions more than other. When you think about it, positioning is quite important for midfielders and strikers, too.

Guess it doesn't matter cos the rest do train positioning.

It's just.. the keepers but now we're hearing positioning doesn't matter for GKs.

[MrPompey]

Guys, I played as a goalkeeper to semi pro standard. Believe me positioning is absolutely essential to a goal keeper. It can be a weakness or strength but its key for shot stopping, rushing out, playing almost as a sweeper tidying up, corners, crosses...need i go go on

Like all players it can improve with age and experience. For outfield players its one reason why players who lose their pace are still great players due to their positioning. Its a key attribute for may players and certainly keepers

[Lazaru5]

how to make a major bug sound inconsequential - play it down... "keeper's don't need positioning" translates to "someone dropped a major bollock- you're fired!"

[Sengkang]

Guys, I played as a goalkeeper to semi pro standard. Believe me positioning is absolutely essential to a goal keeper. It can be a weakness or strength but its key for shot stopping, rushing out, playing almost as a sweeper tidying up, corners, crosses...need i go go on

Like all players it can improve with age and experience. For outfield players its one reason why players who lose their pace are still great players due to their positioning. Its a key attribute for may players and certainly keepers

Ya but the point of (very friendly and amicable) contention has now became positioning doesn't matter in the game for a keeper.

[Sengkang]

how to make a major bug sound inconsequential - play it down... "keeper's don't need positioning" translates to "someone dropped a major bollock- you're fired!"

To be really fair to them (true, we did spend money to buy), they are already looking into it.. I am just very curious with regards to positioning of the GKs since it is what started all these

*Still editing, ready in a few minutes to start the game with postioning = 1 for some big clubs and mid-level clubs*

[Joga]

Guess it doesn't matter cos the rest do train positioning.

It's just.. the keepers but now we're hearing positioning doesn't matter for GKs.

Was referring to what mantralux said "positioning is solely defensive attribute"

[MrPompey]

Ya but the point of (very friendly and amicable) contention has now became positioning doesn't matter in the game for a keeper.

On the basis its football simulation then I'd say IT IS important.

The fact that it was included in FM11 and not in FM12 suggests it may be a mistake. However we'll need someone like PaulC to explain how its used in game (ME) by goalkeepers to understand the full impact

My understand of SI's response so far is that they acknowledge it as a bug and are investigating. In the meantime pending anything other statement we should be discussing how we train goalkeepers in positioning to reduce the impact. Individual training seems the answer but lets see

So in response I'd suggest it a key defensive and offensive requirement. Doesn't matter how good you are unless you are in the right place at the right time, defending (including goalkeeping) and attacking

[THOG]

In the manual it doesn't even state that Positioning is a solely defensive attribute (which it is), so I wouldn't try to put too much trust into the manual - it has been constructed in a vague manner intentionally, to give the illusion of immersion between the game and reality.

Concealing the meaning of game terms and confusing players about what their actions actually mean doesn't create "the illusion of immersion between the game and reality," it creates the impression that you're dealing with an abstract computer program that doesn't provide an intuitive reflection of reality. Football managers deal in plain language with clear meanings. Their scouts don't speak in riddles and their players aren't robots that have a dial vaguely labeled "Mentality" on them. "Football Manager" shouldn't be "Alien Train Simulator" where you're basically presented with a bunch of switches and dials and left to figure out what does what (or anything at all) via trial, error and ambiguous technical jargon. That is silly and most certainly breaks the illusion.

But again, that's the "black box" issue and a little more clarity/transparency from actual SI staff/documentation (not anonymous users, no offense intended) would go a long way to allay customer concerns about recognized bugs. As it stands, simply saying it's not "game breaking" is not enough. I want to know (from SI), specifically, why having all game world goalkeepers with single digit Positioning is not going to adversely affect match engine results over a long-term save.

the best way to decide which one is the better keeper is to judge solely on their performances, not on their numbers.

The reason we have "Attributes" is to make up for the game's inability to give us a real world visual representation of the players. All we see are abstract dots moving around in a green rectangle whose abstract statistical results are affected by numerous other factors (morale, tactical instructions, teammate performance, random number generation). We can't actually walk out onto the training ground and see a lifelike Reina/Valdes practicing various skills in various situations over and over and over. That is what the "Attributes" represent. But again, the black box...

[Govnar1]

Exactly - you would look at the actual goalkeeper attributes to decide which one is the better goalkeeper. Even then, hidden attributes and CA/PA would alter that opinion, and the best way to decide which one is the better keeper is to judge solely on their performances, not on their numbers.

This is in my opinion the only way forward. Player attributes shouldn't be visible (except the few objectively measurable physical attributes such as speed, power, acceleration, endurance ... and some mental qualities such as professionalism). Thus the search for new players would be based on their performance, not on their attributes (research of statistics such as percentage of successful passes, crosses, tackles...) Of course it is crucial that the AI managers use the same method of player search. This would help AI team building and hopefully it would prevent human players from easily retaining their best players (now AI doesn't recognize player performance only CA).

For players who feel that such a system would be too slow or too difficult there should be an option to return to the old attribute based player search.

[Sengkang]

Starting new game - I changed Friedel, Almunia, Given, Paddy Kenny and.. who else.. erm.. oh, De Gea's Positioning to 1.

They're really very random. Which 1st 11 GK comes to my mind, I enter into the editor and changed their positioning to 1.

[Joga]

In the meantime pending anything other statement we should be discussing how we train goalkeepers in positioning to reduce the impact. Individual training seems the answer but lets see

The problem isn't really how to keep our goalkeeper positioning up, since we can use custom scheules, the problem is that the computer doesn't.

[MrPompey]

are you doing a test. Not sure what you are sayong here?

[Sengkang]

This is in my opinion the only way forward. Player attributes shouldn't be visible (except the few objectively measurable physical attributes such as speed, power, acceleration, endurance ... and some mental qualities such as professionalism). Thus the search for new players would be based on their performance, not on their attributes (research of statistics such as percentage of successful passes, crosses, tackles...) Of course it is crucial that the AI managers use the same method of player search. This would help AI team building and hopefully it would prevent human players from easily retaining their best players (now AI doesn't recognize player performance only CA).

For players who feel that such a system would be too slow or too difficult there should be an option to return to the old attribute based player search.

Totally don't agree. Sounds like a new game that I would not buy. I like CM/FM way the game can be played. Just my vote! Cheers!

[Govnar1]

Guys, I played as a goalkeeper to semi pro standard. Believe me positioning is absolutely essential to a goal keeper. It can be a weakness or strength but its key for shot stopping, rushing out, playing almost as a sweeper tidying up, corners, crosses...need i go go on

Like all players it can improve with age and experience. For outfield players its one reason why players who lose their pace are still great players due to their positioning. Its a key attribute for may players and certainly keepers

[Sengkang]

That is just ridiculous. Concealing the meaning of game terms and confusing players about what their actions actually mean doesn't create "the illusion of immersion between the game and reality," it creates the impression that you're dealing with an abstract computer program that doesn't provide an intuitive reflection of reality. Football managers deal in plain language with clear meanings. Their scouts don't speak in riddles and their players aren't robots that have a dial vaguely labeled "Mentality" on them. "Football Manager" shouldn't be "Alien Train Simulator" where you're basically presented with a bunch of switches and dials and left to figure out what does what (or anything at all) via trial and error. That is silly and most certainly breaks the illusion.

But again, that's the "black box" issue and a little more clarity/transparency from actual SI staff/documentation (not anonymous users) would go a long way to allay customer concerns about recognized bugs. As it stands, simply saying it's not "game breaking" is not enough. I want to know (from SI), specifically, why having all game world goalkeepers with single digit Positioning is not going to adversely effect match engine results over a long-term save.

The reason we have "Attributes" is to make up for the game's inability to give us a real world visual representation of the players. All we see are abstract dots moving around in a green rectangle whose abstract statistical results are affected by numerous other factors (morale, tactical instructions, teammate performance, random number generation). We can't actually walk out onto the training ground and see a lifelike Reina/Valdes practicing various skills in various situations over and over and over. That is what the "Attributes" represent. But again, the black box...

I am on Holiday in-game till May 2012. Edit GK positioning to 1 for Almunia, De Gea, Friedel, Paddy Kenny and Shay Given. We'll See.

I so agree with what you say by the way. Immersion between game and reality is purely subjective and we subject ourselves to the illusion of the game.

We basically play the game to play the game as a sim of football management. To play such a game, a sim of football management and tell me positioning isn't vital anyway in the game is.... hard to accept.

[Govnar1]

Totally don't agree. Sounds like a new game that I would not buy. I like CM/FM way the game can be played. Just my vote! Cheers!

This is precisely why I wrote this:

"For players who feel that such a system would be too slow or too difficult there should be an option to return to the old attribute based player search."

And even then human players would benefit from improved AI team building.

[Sengkang]

are you doing a test. Not sure what you are sayong here?

You referring to me? Yes, I am doing a test using a few selected keepers, edited their positioning to 1 and gone on holiday. Only in Sept 2011 now. Do give me a short while as I am doing this with a broken and disparing heart. Man Utd thrashed. IRL that is.

[MrPompey]

Lets wait and see what SI say about this when they conclude their investigation.

On our part we know its a key element to GK's but we now need evidence to demonstrate how it may impact the game

[Sengkang]

This is precisely why I wrote this:

"For players who feel that such a system would be too slow or too difficult there should be an option to return to the old attribute based player search."

And even then human players would benefit from improved AI team building.

Oh I get you. So it's like having a switch. On and off switch. Ok, got you. But I wouldn't turn it off to play the game. But yes, i understand you point. It's very valid.

[THOG]

This is in my opinion the only way forward. Player attributes shouldn't be visible (except the few objectively measurable physical attributes such as speed, power, acceleration, endurance ... and some mental qualities such as professionalism). Thus the search for new players would be based on their performance, not on their attributes (research of statistics such as percentage of successful passes, crosses, tackles...) Of course it is crucial that the AI managers use the same method of player search. This would help AI team building and hopefully it would prevent human players from easily retaining their best players (now AI doesn't recognize player performance only CA).

For players who feel that such a system would be too slow or too difficult there should be an option to return to the old attribute based player search.

Well, I agree here, but I think it's still crucial that scouts be able to give a general appraisal of a player's strength in certain areas. Things like "Neymar is a very good player across the board. However, he gets knocked off his feet easily and his finishing and composure in front of goal will need work before he can compete as a top tier striker at our club." This should model the fact that someone is watching hours and hours of match footage. It's unreasonable to expect players to watch 14 hours of simulated matches just to get a sense of how good a prospect is. Even the most dedicated FM players need time to change their diapers and refill their feeding tube.

And generally, getting the AI to stop using CA/PA and reputation as the main standards for squad-building would be a huge step forward.

[Sengkang]

Lets wait and see what SI say about this when they conclude their investigation.

On our part we know its a key element to GK's but we now need evidence to demonstrate how it may impact the game

Still only in August.. Maybe I can give info regarding my test (quite sure it doesn't matter but just wanna give a background);

4 leagues playable - EPL, npower Championship, Serie A and La Liga.

Selected all top division in all selectable leagues (except English cos I started npower as West Ham in my prev load).

Tuned Friedel, De Gea, Almunia, Given and Paddy Kenny - Positioning to 1.

As of now, only in Sept 2011. Running iMac 2010 Model with 8GB RAM.

[Sengkang]

Lets wait and see what SI say about this when they conclude their investigation.

On our part we know its a key element to GK's but we now need evidence to demonstrate how it may impact the game

Still only in August.. Maybe I can give info regarding my test (quite sure it doesn't matter but just wanna give a background);

4 leagues playable - EPL, npower Championship, Serie A and La Liga.

Selected all top division in all selectable leagues (except English cos I started npower as West Ham in my prev load).

Tuned Friedel, De Gea, Almunia, Given and Paddy Kenny - Positioning to 1.

As of now, only in Sept 2011. Running iMac 2010 Model with 8GB RAM.

[Richard76]

So if I just set my keepers individual training focus to positioning I should guard against the effects of this bug?

[Govnar1]

That is just ridiculous. Concealing the meaning of game terms and confusing players about what their actions actually mean doesn't create "the illusion of immersion between the game and reality," it creates the impression that you're dealing with an abstract computer program that doesn't provide an intuitive reflection of reality. Football managers deal in plain language with clear meanings. Their scouts don't speak in riddles and their players aren't robots that have a dial vaguely labeled "Mentality" on them. "Football Manager" shouldn't be "Alien Train Simulator" where you're basically presented with a bunch of switches and dials and left to figure out what does what (or anything at all) via trial, error and ambiguous technical jargon. That is silly and most certainly breaks the illusion.

I completely agree.

[Sengkang]

So if I just set my keepers individual training focus to positioning I should guard against the effects of this bug?

Sorry but this is the 5th time i am saying this... U can do that but the AI, meaning the rest of the GKs in the gaming world will continue to decline though a post has said the assistant manager will suggest the us (and probably the AIs too) to train positioning for the keeper.

[Sengkang]

Results!! Shocking!!

[Joga]

So if I just set my keepers individual training focus to positioning I should guard against the effects of this bug?

Yes i think so, but every other goalkeepers positioning keeps declining

[mantralux]

That is just ridiculous. Concealing the meaning of game terms and confusing players about what their actions actually mean doesn't create "the illusion of immersion between the game and reality," it creates the impression that you're dealing with an abstract computer program that doesn't provide an intuitive reflection of reality.

I would guess that the reasoning for keeping it vague is because having "Positioning accounts for X% of player movement, and is directly influenced by the X attribute at X%" isn't really giving you the impression of a realistic game.

But again, that's the "black box" issue and a little more clarity/transparency from actual SI staff/documentation (not anonymous users) would go a long way to allay customer concerns about recognized bugs. As it stands, simply saying it's not "game breaking" is not enough. I want to know (from SI), specifically, why having all game world goalkeepers with single digit Positioning is not going to adversely affect match engine results over a long-term save.

They have explained it though - this attribute isn't vital to a goalkeeper, it's more important for defensive outfield players, as goalkeepers have their own set of attributes that cover off the ball movement enough to make Positioning non-essential.

The reason we have "Attributes" is to make up for the game's inability to give us a real world visual representation of the players.

Really? I judge all my player purchases on actually watching the players play in the 3D engine, and then take a look at their match ratings.

[Sengkang]

For only 3 games in the EPL, start in July 2011, and 9th Sept 2011 -

De Gea is selected as 1st team GK with postioning increased to 2. I had changed it to 1. That means AI does witch their individual focus to the poorer or more needed area. But that would take away the privilege of training the rest of the attributes. Still a bug to me.

[Sengkang]

De Gea has conceded only 1 goal by the way.

[Govnar1]

Well, I agree here, but I think it's still crucial that scouts be able to give a general appraisal of a player's strength in certain areas. Things like "Neymar is a very good player across the board. However, he gets knocked off his feet easily and his finishing and composure in front of goal will need work before he can compete as a top tier striker at our club." This should model the fact that someone is watching hours and hours of match footage. It's unreasonable to expect players to watch 14 hours of simulated matches just to get a sense of how good a prospect is. Even the most dedicated FM players need time to change their diapers and refill their feeding tube.

And generally, getting the AI to stop using CA/PA and reputation as the main standards for squad-building would be a huge step forward.

I fully agree whit this.

Scouting should be improved and made a crucial part of search for new players.

[Sengkang]

Almunia - Not selected for the first team, no appearances. This is on purpose cos i am selecting backup keeper too.

[Lazaru5]

For only 3 games in the EPL, start in July 2011, and 9th Sept 2011 -

De Gea is selected as 1st team GK with postioning increased to 2. I had changed it to 1. That means AI does witch their individual focus to the poorer or more needed area. But that would take away the privilege of training the rest of the attributes. Still a bug to me.

Doubtful... did you change any other attributes or CA/PA when you changed positioning to 1? If you didn't then it could increase as a normal game balancing mechanism...