How to Play FM: A (Very) Short Guide to Understanding the Match Engine and Manager AI

[daleuk8]

Must admit that I didn't know those 3 levels were involved in the creation of the TC.

wwfan, I hope that you don't allow the vociferous but minority of baiters to get under your skin. Please always remember that there are a great many of us who deeply appreciate the fantastic work that you have done in making this game so enjoyable.

Agreed..Keep up the good work

[axehan1]

Must admit that I didn't know those 3 levels were involved in the creation of the TC.

wwfan, I hope that you don't allow the vociferous but minority of baiters to get under your skin. Please always remember that there are a great many of us who deeply appreciate the fantastic work that you have done in making this game so enjoyable.

that is the problem with this forum,whilst the majority(and i mean majority)of us are enjoying the FM experiance,there are a few who enjoy nothing more than ripping the game to pieces.I cant understand those peolple that blab on about how this is nowhere like real football!!!if it was we would ALL be rubbish at it because none of us would have a clue.I've just had a read through the "complacency thread" in the general discussion.OMG some people will not believe what they are told by people who know what they are talikng about.

[terrybecker]

oh common you are calling yourself, millie and the "think tank at fm britain" professional researchers and ex professional sportsmen. you guys are deluded, you probably think you can coach real teams because you play fm.

and here is the umpteenth fanboy sticking his nose in the conversation belittling people with a different opinion.

goodbye sir, enjoy your ****** video game

[wwfan]

oh common you are calling yourself, millie and the "think tank at fm britain" professional researchers and ex professional sportsmen. you guys are deluded, you probably think you can coach real teams because you play fm.

and here is the umpteenth fanboy sticking his nose in the conversation belittling people with a different opinion.

goodbye sir, enjoy your ****** video game

Millie and I both work for universities in research capacities. I work for a top 100 ranked business/management school and Gareth works for a prestigious medical research centre. Neither of us are the ex pros or professional coaches I refered to, although Gareth is a professional referee and I am a qualified coach. The people I refered to are employed by SI as consultants. They read the reports and played with the TC before it was ever included in FM.

Our role was simply researching football books on tactics and management alongside collating data from these forums and turning it in a set of theorems (not theories: I'm sure you know the difference) that enabled the user base to play realistically. At the behest of SI, this work became the backbone of TC development, although many others, including ex pros, were involved.

I am at a loss why this bothers you so much.

[ricardomac]

wwfan, friend, don't bother answering those types of provocation. Just ignore the guy. Reading your threads (alongside cleon's, sfraser's and heathxxx's) and the TT&F helped me understand this game. And that's what is important.

Cheers.

[heathxxx]

I have nothing against people who have differences of opinions, as all well presented or reasonably discussed opinions have "validity".

When someone is unwilling to listen to genuine advice and facts, then proceeds to be abusive towards other forum members, I'm afraid that won't be tolerated.

Fortunately, the vast majority of people who use the Tactics Discussion forum, even if they have widely different or conflicting opinions, are at least willing to debate things in a more civil manner.

Criticism of the game is fine and constructive criticism is always welcomed. However if even when presented with accurate and factual responses, someone's unwilling to engage in meaningful debate, sadly it simply isn't worth engaging with them any longer.

[terrybecker11]

here is my constructive criticism then, have real football managers help design the game instead of fanboys.

thanks for banning me, i assume it was you heathxx.

wwwfan i already told you why it bothers me that you're involved in this game, because you are only a fan, you were never an actual or ex manager.

as it is all the advice that you, millie, cleon, fraser or any other :guru: gives is pure video game advice, simply for the fact that you never manged a football club before.

i will go back to my flying sim analogy, a fan cannot give the same input as an actual pilot.

now go ahead and shoot down my argument heathexx because its not factual or it doesnt have validity

you are the most deluded out of all the moderators here.

[SFraser]

here is my constructive criticism then, have real football managers help design the game instead of fanboys.

I am one of the most active posters in this particular forum, and probably the most verbose when I do write, and I have never even made it into a FM beta test. For some absurd reason you seem to think that what happens here on these forums is some grand discussion between those directly involved in designing the game. This particular forum here is a place for fans to discuss tactics and training. It's not a developer forum, it's not a game design forum.

I honestly do not understand where you get the idea that people here design the game.

thanks for banning me, i assume it was you heathxx.

I don't blame him.

wwwfan i already told you why it bothers me that you're involved in this game, because you are only a fan, you were never an actual or ex manager.

I think you are missing the point somewhat. WWFan has said previously that his line of work is management analysis or research or something along those lines. If I understand correctly his involvement in the game is in helping to provide sufficient management tools to the player, not in defining the underlying game mechanics. That is the job of other people.

I'm quite sure that a football management game designed by the vocal contributors to tactical and training discussions and guides would be an absolute bomb. I'm sure SI value the opinions of people like Heathxxx and Cleon and the chaps from FM Britain but it is also pretty clear that these guys do not work for SI, do not have the required skills and knowledge to design game mechanics, but are still a very excellent source of feedback and suggestions.

If you look very closely you will notice that people with the "SI Games" tag on their profiles do not post in the Tactics and Training forum. It is so obvious that it must, and quite reasonably so, be a rule.

as it is all the advice that you, millie, cleon, fraser or any other :guru: gives is pure video game advice, simply for the fact that you never manged a football club before.

And that is all the advice we give.

I will go back to my flying sim analogy, a fan cannot give the same input as an actual pilot.

And we "fanboys" are not designing the game, we are giving advice on how to play the end product. Indeed I have never had any input on anything to do with game whatsoever. It doesn't stop me trumping Heathxxx for post length.

Ultimately you are projecting your problems with the game in all the wrong directions, with all the wrong arguements, at all the wrong people and you simply refuse to understand that your arguements are completely derailed the moment you hit "post reply" because none of the people you are ranting against, apart from WWFan, have any kind of design role in FM. We are just fans talking about a game we spend an awful lot of time playing, and that's it.

I suppose in some way it is complimentary that you think I would actually have some kind of input/design role at SI for FM, but I can assure you that your "arguement" is completely and one hundred percent incorrect. I don't have any kind of input/design role. The closest thing I have to input in FM is the odd PM to WWFan, and I'm pretty sure he ignores them all

And just an fyi, Heathxxx is just about the most sound and calm and unprovokable moderator on this entire website. A very highly respected moderator.

[ricardomac]

Since Mr. Terrybecker11 took this discussion out of topic a long time ago, I'll follow his lead.

Maybe wwfan, Sfraser, Cleon, Heathxxx and others aren't managers, but I assure you that there are real life managers signed in this forums. One of those is Uncle Sam (sorry for using your name). He is a rela life manager from the USA. He's not involved in game design, I guess, but he contributes a lot to the forums and he knows what he is talking about. And like him I know for a fact that there are many other real life managers playing the game.

Another thing is, I remember reading, a few posts back, wwfan saying he is a licensed coach in real life. From what I know from the game of football, a coach has to know tactics and strategies. But maybe I'm wrong. And Millie (the only two members quoted in this stupid offtopic dicussion that are closely linked with the video game development and not on its design) is a referee. Ok he doesn't need to know tactics but obviously he knows the rules of the game.

And lastly, like SFraser said, all of us are in this forums looking for help and discussing a video game. Not ways of playing real football. Is this game better, interms of simulation, than other football simulation games? Yes it is and we, FMers, love it the way it is.

And the reason you were banned is because of your runting and offtopic. And by the way (I believe many people will agree with me) I don't even know why you came back. Go back to your flying simulation and leave football alone.

Sorry wwfan for keep this offtopic.

Cheers.

[heathxxx]

I hear Sir Alex has just been hired to write the code for FM12.

[ricardomac]

Yeah. I can already see the Man seating at a desk, with his glasses on, typing a whole bunch of numbers and letters in a computer. Saying to himself: "Good thing they hired a real manager to make a video game. Now I'm a happy man.". :-)

And now I'm over with the offtopic.

[heathxxx]

It'll be hard-coded that Mike Phelan does post match interviews

[phnompenhandy]

All referees with get ratings of 1 every match!

[ricardomac]

That would happen with José Mourinho. And with Mourinho, when you open the game in your computer there will be a message: "Warning: Barcelona has an advantage in this game, do not play them, or you'll lose.".

We are so away from thread topic right now. But it's fun.

[heathxxx]

That's what it should be about - "at the end of the day" - to use famed football parlance

I'm really enjoying playing the game/simulation, whichever way you prefer to see it. Sure, there's niggles with the game I'm sure we'll all notice from time to time, but they certainly don't ruin my fun. I'm neither an "apologist" or "fanboy" and will constructively criticise things I feel aren't particularly good, as I have with the match preparation module. Ultimately, it's a representation of football, albeit a very good one and it always will be a representation. I genuinely think the game improves every years and so long as that's the path the game keeps following, I'll remain happy.

As for real footballing knowledge and input for the game, I think there's an awful lot more than people may realise. Just from my own very small perspective researching Granada CF, I've been fortunate enough to attend training sessions and speak to players and coaches. I've actually asked their opinions regarding certain player attributes. I doubt I'm the only one who's consulted "professionals" within the real game.

[ricardomac]

Totally agree. Every game has flaws. It's made by men, which have flaws, so it's pretty normal. But that doesn't move me. I'm having much fun in the save game I have runing. I took Bromley to the Championship in 4 seasons, and droped back to league 1 last season. But tinkering things and play the game makes me happy. I love this video game. So much that I got my little sister to give me the PSP version for my birthday. It's not as good, but is good enough for me to turn the PC off, go to bed and keep playin' it on the PSP. I love football, but for some reason I don't get much fun from other types of simulators like PES or FIFA, but FM makes me addicted. And is not good coming from a 27 year old man. But I love it with flaws and everything.

About asking the pros, I never did, but I'm planing on taking a manager license, but in this country isn't easy nor cheap. But I won't quit trying.

[Govnar1]

Serbo-Croatian? It must be similar to French-Italian?

[FreeWillFlowChart]

99% of the time it's not a bug.

What you just described is the whole point of the game. While some people struggle to find out what prevented their team from playing perfect football, other people put together imperfect teams and watch a football match.

The devs are not going to give you feedback as to why your Right Back had a nightmare after getting an average of 8.0 in his last five games. If you want feedback then watch the match. That's what it is there for.

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people that buy the most indepth football simulator on the planet and then refuse to watch their football matches. You don't have to watch every match in your career like I do, but if you don't watch any then your problem is yourself.

If Ancelotti figured out what went wrong, would Chelsea not have won the league this season? If Grant had figured out what went wrong, surely West Ham would have stayed up? Can we not conclude then that in real life, managers far more qualified than ourselves, often never figure out what to attribute to their failures? I would perhaps argue that we are privy to more data within the realm of Football Manager than our real-life counterparts are. Further -- and perhaps more poignantly -- who is to say that even if a manager knows in all certainty exactly who or what is contributing to the detriment of the team, that he can do anything about it? Sounds a little like FM to me.

[FreeWillFlowChart]

who said random decisions? i said decisions based on video game tactics not real life tactical decisions. these are the people who are generally good at video games know the rules of fm2011 and decide on what to do based on that. also maybe 1 person out of 100000 probably plays a full season in full match mode. if this was indeed a simulation everyone here would finish relegated because they don't watch the full game, imagine ferguson only watching bits and pieces and making decisions based on that lol.

as it is the me is a very poor representation of real football, especially player skill. that's why you see so many people complain when a player with long shots 3 scores a scorcher.

At the beginning of every season I play every game on full until I am confident my players are doing what I ask of them. For the first 10 minutes I may focus on my defensive line; then I might watch my advanced playmaker to see if he's taking up the right positions; I may see how my central midfielders relate to my opposition's central midfielders in a 4-4-2. Once I am happy with the way my team is structured and they are playing the way I want them to play -- I don't set my teams up to combat or counter the opposition, I like to enforce my own will upon matches -- I'll switch to Key Highlights to get a "Match of the Day" experience. If my form dips you bet your life I'll be switching back to Full Match Mode. I can say with all honesty that watching the full match in my first three away games as Blackpool (versus Man City, Chelsea, and Arsenal) was as much responsible for the three points I earned -- and earn them I did! -- as the contain "wimp" tactic I employed. Each of those games I tied 0-0.

It always surprises me how many people play the game "the wrong way round". It's as though we're willing to spend the time and put in the leg work outside of match day, yet when the fruits of that labor are about to be realized, we zip right through the very thing we've prepared for! Can you imagine Alex Ferguson watching a game at Old Trafford from a TV screen that would show 10 seconds of the game every twelve minutes? As ridiculous as this sounds it's not so dissimilar to the way we play Football Manager; and I think I know why this is the case. The match is the manifestation of our philosophies and our efforts. As humans we expect to be vindicated instantly: "Why do I need to watch the game when I know I am right? After all the effort I've put in why should I have to put more in and watch the game? Since I know I am right I can simply whizz through the highlights to victory." The match is arguably the most important display of data that the game can portray...

[dvilla]

3: Attackers freezing when wide of the goal and in the last 6 yards. Players don't know what to do in this position and tend to do very unrealistic things.

I meets such a situation very often, especially for my cut-forwards, is there any way to avoid this by changing some thing in tactics?

Thank you,

[CarlosJesus]

Match Engine Development

It is a regularly expressed forum opinion that the FM07 ME produced beautiful football. In contrast, FM08's ME seemed to be a major retrograde step in terms of the beauty and flow of the football. The release version of FM08 was the only time I was genuinely shocked with the ME quality compared to the previous version. However, I soon came to realise that despite it seeming a step backward, it did actually add in ugly, mistake ridden, broken play elements of the game, which were missing from 07.

In 07, it was possible for a PM to make over 150 successful passes in a match and for a TM to score 50 plus league goals in a season. As long as you had quality players in those positions, you would dominate. I actually stopped using a TM because it made the game too easy. What the 07 ME made obvious, especially for these roles, was how well the players were obeying tactical instructions. in the FM11 ME, player decision making is far more important, so you need a much better eye to see your instructions being carried out. In 07, they followed instructions like robots, in FM11, like people.

The FM07 ME was the last one in which a user could dominate structurally, i.e. as long as he had a logical mentality system and player roles, the tactical AI couldn't cope and was overpowered. Because of this, your team would play exactly how you prescribed. As long as you had a superior structural system, the AI couldn't do anything to stop your team playing in the manner you wanted.

Subsequent AIs and MEs have eroded this level of user advantage. In FM08, the tactical AI was robust enough to stop user structural systems dominating it without the user at least changing strategies. The alternative was to employ crazy arrow tactics that tricked the AI defence into marking the wrong players, which artificially and unrealistically opened up exploitable space. The removal of the arrows for the FM09 ME highlighted other weaknesses in the ME, notably the inability of the AI to defend the centre when it was overloaded by the opposition. As a result, there were a plethora of 'super' tactics appearing that simply channeled the ball down the centre. This fault continued throughout FM10 and early into FM11, although it was slowly being combated by the change in tactical logic in FM10 and by better defensive AI through FM10 and 11. In recent MEs, it has become almost impossible to overpower AI tactics down the centre.

The only major flaw remaining is corners, which are still scored on at too high a rate. However, back post or target goalkeeper routines no longer overly dominate, albeit at the slight cost of overall goals from corners increasing. The current ME has a few other issues which could still be tidied up to make it perfect, but none of which, in my opinion, come close to game breaking.

Current Issues

1: Defenders turning their back on the ball.

2: Defenders clearing the ball out for corners rather than into touch or down the pitch. Numerous times players bang the ball out behind them when it is perfectly possible to clear it to other areas.

3: Attackers freezing when wide of the goal and in the last 6 yards. Players don't know what to do in this position and tend to do very unrealistic things.

4: Back crosses are still a little overpowered. This is not too bad and only happens if you have a strong/quick and tall player coming in on the far post. For example, my MR scores a lot of far post headers from open play, but his jumping is 19. My AML (jumping 5) doesn't.

5: Central players with high vision not seeing the overlap. The FBs can get in really good wide positions in this ME, but are too often ignored when they get there.

6: Goalkeeper not commanding his box.

7: Direct free kicks being underpowered.

8: Pressing could be more aggressive, especially high up the pitch. However, I have seen my team, when fired up, press the ball all the way down the pitch from the edge of my own area, forcing a backpass to and wild clearance from the opposition goalkeeper.

The important thing is that none of these bugs, for me anyway, ruin the overall match experience. The variety of goal types and open play moves is breathtaking. There are no 'do this and score' routines in open play any more, largely because the defence of the centre and flanks has improved so much.

Managing Match Performances in FM11

In FM07, all you had to do was to produce a good base tactic and you'd dominate. Now you also have to ensure the squad is disciplined and motivated. You also need to make minor tactical adjustments (all can be done via shouts) to account for opposition formations, the weather, the pitch condition and the scoreline. For me, an inability to manage these aspects is what will make the game less fun, as you will never work out why you are winning or losing.

If you have well-disciplined, motivated players following a coherent tactical plan, it is still obvious that they are sticking to your tactics. The key difference is that the players won't robotically pass to the PM or TM if another obvious and much easier option is on. This means that if a PM is marked out of the game by the AI, the players use second options. Decision making is now logical and not robotic.

PPMs are a major difference, as they give players traits that might make them act differently than you'd expect from your tactical instructions. As a manager, you have to work out how to best combat/employ this. You can ask them to unlearn the trait, use specific player instructions to minimise its impact, use team instructions to do likewise, or decide to make it an integral part of your game plan. Some players may never fit in to your tactical system, so you either have to ship them off or change the system.

Motivation and respect are also key. If the players are motivated to play for you and respect your decisions, then they will follow instructions very closely. However, if there is low morale or you have lost the dressing room, players will not act in a disciplined manner. You then need to put other managerial skills into play outside of the tactical ones. If you want the players to follow your instructions to the letter, you need the dressing room to 100% respect you. This does require time and managers must recognise that a team is unlikely to produce highly polished football if there are multiple new signings or the manager has just taken over the club. Polished performance is something to work towards and not something one should automatically expect.

Understanding the AI's Strengths and Weaknesses

There have been two types of game-playing logic that have dominated the forums since FM06. One has focused on designing 'super-tactics 'that enable the user to press continue, safe in the knowledge that the AI cannot cope with the user tactic. People using this system never learn how the game works as man and media management become irrelevant if your tactic wins by default. These types of player tend to 'rant and rave' on the forums about cheating AI when the tactic they employ falls apart (commonly, they get the morale up pre-season, play open attractive football in good conditions, win, hit some bad weather, don't adjust and collapse). The second type of logic was based around the TT&F style of play, in which the user learned how to make logical tactical decisions and learned why and how they worked (NB TT&F was just one version of this type of play. There are a number of other systems of play that followed a similar mindset). In FM10, TT&F was incorporated into the game, as the Tactical Creator and in AI tactical logic. The AI is now capable of making far more sophisticated tactical decisions, which means it is able to stop the user team from playing how it wants.

As a result, the user also has to be more sophisticated. In order to impose his own game on the opposition, he needs to be able to manage the squad holistically. He must understand tactics well enough to prevent the opposition from playing and impose his own game in a variety of conditions, against multiple formations and playing styles and against squads of varying ability levels. This can involve using shouts systematically, employing logical opposition instructions (either to combat formation of player strengths/weaknesses), target marking, killing the crowd influence etc, etc. He must be able to keep his squad disciplined, confident and motivated. He must be able to rotate effectively so he doesn't have a squad full of jaded players. He must be able to buy the right players to fit into his tactical system or adapt his tactical thinking to the players at his disposal.

The user still has a number of advantages over the AI. The AI doesn't use opposition instructions to negate formation differences or player weaknesses, only against player strengths. The AI's target marking only focuses on the most creative players. The AI only has a limited number of shout strategies, which certainly haven't been fully integrated with manager types. The AI's squad building is still sub-standard.

The major issue is that too few of the user base appreciate all of this and certainly haven't grasped the holistic requirements of the game. Most of this is down to the documentation, which while technically adequate, is hopeless in terms of understanding game playing strategy. It, and the in-game hints and tips, is lagging behind AI and ME development, which leads to a knowledge gap between the product and the users. The richness of the game's technical excellence is not being extended into the game-playing experience for a significant number of users. It has got better in recent years, but is still a major issue. Until it is addressed, the kind of frustration that regularly expresses itself on the forums will continue, with the risk of it multiplying.

Yes i agree 100%

And another thing i noticed and boring me is since FM06 i cant put my tactic identical with AI tactics.

In this FM11 the AI wingers run to the deep side and do perfect crosses, well i try all to human tactics to do the same and never achive that, in FM06 was possible and logicaly could be do it on al FM

I want the next FM with this logical system aplied "IF AI can do it we Human should do it as well with the options provided in game tactics" and then FM is a good simulator.

[jdiogocf]

Match Engine Development

Until it is addressed, the kind of frustration that regularly expresses itself on the forums will continue, with the risk of it multiplying.

exactly. and to be even more honest. I think that sigames should give something like a walktrought, since the information that common users have in forums or PDF's it's not enough and in some cases, contraditory

and i think that what you said isnt really true, since tactics like il devasto for fm 2011 proved a really good way to win everything without chaging nothing at all, off corse you need world class players and it's not a diablo. and to be honest its because tactics like il devasto that me and big part of fm users are play. A game is meanted to be fun, enjoyable. if a game needs time to be studed its just boring and unpleasant. to study we have college

[PoolFan]

Biggest problem with FM in general is the disgusting lack of documentation for even the most basic features in the game. Whenever I play FM it always end up the same, you end up losing or getting frustrated and have no idea why or what to do about it. It is totally insane that the game has changed over the years where motivation of your players using some pathetic pseudo guess system that is NEVER explained has such a dramatic influence on your results. You can read 5 different guides online from so called FM experts and every single one of them will contradict the other. Honestly what's the point, if you cannot model something like a motivation system where it makes sense to people then don't have it make such a dramatic effect on the result.

It's a massive failing of the FM series that the developers don't seem to care one bit about the documenting features and explaining how it is actually is supposed to work. What you end up with when you do this is a million different theories on how stuff works and not one person can say for sure which is correct apart from the people who designed it and yet they are the people who say nothing at all.

[mibsweden]

exactly. and to be even more honest. I think that sigames should give something like a walktrought, since the information that common users have in forums or PDF's it's not enough and in some cases, contraditory

and i think that what you said isnt really true, since tactics like il devasto for fm 2011 proved a really good way to win everything without chaging nothing at all, off corse you need world class players and it's not a diablo. and to be honest its because tactics like il devasto that me and big part of fm users are play. A game is meanted to be fun, enjoyable. if a game needs time to be studed its just boring and unpleasant. to study we have college

Fun is the name of the game for sure. BUT, fun is subjective. To me, part of the fun with FM is that it is extremely complex and takes lots of time and devotion go be succesful. But that is my version of fun.

[j. terry]

PoolFan: I believe that the reason to there being contradicting guides from succesful FM-players is because the game is complex and there is no "do this and you'll win the league"-approach. You can be succesful using very different methods. I mean, for example, reading guides from SFraser and Cleon, at least in the tactical part of the game they seem to have completely different approaches and both are still extremely succesful players. So what I'm trying to say is that maybe it's near to impossible for the creators of the game to make a guide simply because any method can be succesful in the right circumstances. If some of the creators where to create a guide saying what's the best/they're own approach to training, tactics etc I think it could ruin the game to many players who then just would take that approach and stick to it, which would make the game quite one-dimensional for these players.

[jdiogocf]

Biggest problem with FM in general is the disgusting lack of documentation for even the most basic features in the game. Whenever I play FM it always end up the same, you end up losing or getting frustrated and have no idea why or what to do about it. It is totally insane that the game has changed over the years where motivation of your players using some pathetic pseudo guess system that is NEVER explained has such a dramatic influence on your results. You can read 5 different guides online from so called FM experts and every single one of them will contradict the other. Honestly what's the point, if you cannot model something like a motivation system where it makes sense to people then don't have it make such a dramatic effect on the result.

It's a massive failing of the FM series that the developers don't seem to care one bit about the documenting features and explaining how it is actually is supposed to work. What you end up with when you do this is a million different theories on how stuff works and not one person can say for sure which is correct apart from the people who designed it and yet they are the people who say nothing at all.

Worst is the fact that someone makes money with those tutorial's. I have many of them, and even in Strategy and philosophy section there are completly contradictory things, each doesent make absolutly no sense. Well but they are doing what they can to make money. SI should be responsible to give us a official guide. otherwise i dont think that FM glory days still continue. They need to think that the game is for a big range of people, not just for virtual world class managers

[PoolFan]

PoolFan: I believe that the reason to there being contradicting guides from succesful FM-players is because the game is complex and there is no "do this and you'll win the league"-approach. You can be succesful using very different methods. I mean, for example, reading guides from SFraser and Cleon, at least in the tactical part of the game they seem to have completely different approaches and both are still extremely succesful players. So what I'm trying to say is that maybe it's near to impossible for the creators of the game to make a guide simply because any method can be succesful in the right circumstances. If some of the creators where to create a guide saying what's the best/they're own approach to training, tactics etc I think it could ruin the game to many players who then just would take that approach and stick to it, which would make the game quite one-dimensional for these players.

I agree that there are multiple ways to achieve success but the core concepts of features are supposed to work should be documented by the developers. The teamtalks/motivation is my main annoyance with the game, since this system was introduced it has become more and more complicated and also incredibly unintuitive. I have yet to read a post from a SI developer explaining their theory behind your teamtalk, the motivation of the players involved and their personality traits. It is a complete and utter mess, when you then throw in a series of insanely vague statements that essentially almost always contradict each other you have a recipe for pure annoyance.

Take for example your teamtalk feedback from your assistant manager, i have spent ages trying to motivate my players and then I goto check the feedback from the assistant and he reports 9/10 people

we're not listening, it's annoying rubbish like this that needs to be sorted If you cannot create a motivation system properly and make it make sense to people then it shouldn't have such a massive effect on how your team plays.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

PoolFan: I believe that the reason to there being contradicting guides from succesful FM-players is because the game is complex and there is no "do this and you'll win the league"-approach. You can be succesful using very different methods. I mean, for example, reading guides from SFraser and Cleon, at least in the tactical part of the game they seem to have completely different approaches and both are still extremely succesful players. So what I'm trying to say is that maybe it's near to impossible for the creators of the game to make a guide simply because any method can be succesful in the right circumstances. If some of the creators where to create a guide saying what's the best/they're own approach to training, tactics etc I think it could ruin the game to many players who then just would take that approach and stick to it, which would make the game quite one-dimensional for these players.

It's not about showing the best or they're approach to anything, it's about providing basic instructions or information on how to actually do/use something that they have included in the game, either in a manual, or ingame when it becomes necessary to know it to advance.

I give you Tutoring:confused:

[Deisler26]

Forgive me for possibly making a fool out of myself, but I just want to check something.

I decide which way I'm going to play on each save/club. I buy/train players to play in that certain way. Now this might not be successful for years, but eventually it seems to me that you can play most games with your formation and not have to change? Or is it just literally that the players know how to play that way so well, they can ride roughshod over any problems?

[Smac]

I don't think that's a foolish question. I think the answer is a qualified "Yes you can". If your formation is basically balanced and your personnel are above average, there's a good chance you'll do well in almost any circumstances. However, I would suggest that for any given situation there is a high likelihood that your tactics could be improved to handle that particular situation better than your standard tactic.

That is what OI's are about, for example: You close down X amount generally, but when Jerry Wobbleknees is playing you close him down X+N amount because he can't handle it.

If you didn't use the OI's against Jerry, you may still get the result you expect, but perhaps you won't get it as emphatically. And in the off chance that luck is against you, it seems prudent to make all the adjustments you can to increase your advantage.

I adjust tactics for every match and enjoy it, but my team is mediocre and if I didn't I'm pretty sure I would have lost 100-200% more games.

[SuperManager]

They shouldn't give better documentation for the game IMO. As IRL there is no book to tell you how to use your tactics, you must learn. In the game it's on of the best things because it shows how much work needs to be put in.

Learning the best tactics from experience is what people do in real life, why don't make it like this for FM?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

They shouldn't give better documentation for the game IMO. As IRL there is no book to tell you how to use your tactics, you must learn. In the game it's on of the best things because it shows how much work needs to be put in.

Learning the best tactics from experience is what people do in real life, why don't make it like this for FM?

Learning about tactics is one thing, learning how a game's features go about creating them is another and clear information on how all features in the game can be utilised is essential. ( I don't recall ever seeing a bank of sliders on a footballer's back, for example )