FM needs an overhaul

[Smurf]

Well it would be an interesting test.

[Smurf]

Right!!!! With ya there. Streamlining our access to the vast amount of info we have available. What does the book marking function do, can it do that for you? Never used it before

I do use it. It's not good enough.

That's why I made this thread.

[dafuge]

I must say though, I quite like the idea of star player lists. They already exist for each individual nation, it would be nice to see them extended to competitions as well.

[Smurf]

I must say though, I quite like the idea of star player lists. They already exist for each individual nation, it would be nice to see them extended to competitions as well.

Something like that would be neat.

[Johnny Ace]

It's not really your brain, though, as what appears on Player search depends on the scouting knowledge of your (new) club, and that these disappear if you move clubs and have attribute masking on.

I wasn't aware of the effects of Fog of War, I've not used it for years. So if you managed in one country for 15 years then moved to another nation, the attributes of the players in the country you moved from dissapear?

I assumed that when you watched a game, the Fog of War could clear on the players you're viewing as you would then know his attributes & the fact you know every attribute of the players would mean that's your ingame "memory/ brain" or dossier.

That's why I compared, "knowing" everything (what we can) about a player in his profile is our in game footballing knowledge

[dafuge]

I wasn't aware of the effects of Fog of War, I've not used it for years. So if you managed in one country for 15 years then moved to another nation, the attributes of the players in the country you moved from dissapear?

I don't think so, no. I'm pretty sure that the scouting knowledge you bring as a manager would mean that the players from your old country would still be visible through the player search screen.

It's like starting as a Brazilian manager in the Welsh league. You get the benefit of being able to view Brazilian players in the player search screen that wouldn't have been there before, some of which won't have their attributes masked.

[RBKalle]

Check the scouting assignments & reports, view general info & you can order the 100's of players with your scout's star rating for the player (your scout's opinion of the player) so that all the 4 & 5 star rated players are at the top & the players you're top interested in at the bottom. Then check the top profiles & make your decision on the player. Quick, easy, simple

It's not that quick... mainly because even top-drawer scouts (>15 JPA/JPP) are unable to separate good prospect from the "doomed" ones...

Scouting is heavily PA-based, so a top scout will STILL recommend you a 18yo player with 150PA, despite his attributes being awful (and therefor his CA being low, too low to ever fulfill his potential).

So especially when scouting for younger players you'll literally get dozens of reports about theoretical-3*-players you wouldn't have bothered to ask your scouts about... and all of that just because your bestest scouts can't understand an "all-orange octagon" won't ever become a Good Premier Division Player, no matter how hard you try.

While we patiently wait for a better scounting system, we'd at least use better filtering

[Johnny Ace]

I don't think so, no. I'm pretty sure that the scouting knowledge you bring as a manager would mean that the players from your old country would still be visible through the player search screen.

That's fine then, seems realistic enough, we still "know" how good these players are because we can still view all of their available info in their profile & haven't "forgotten" about them overnight

[Johnny Ace]

It's not that quick... mainly because even top-drawer scouts (>15 JPA/JPP) are unable to separate good prospect from the "doomed" ones...

Not quick? How quick do you think RL teams sort through the potential superstars they're looking for?

Scouts will give you a CA star rating & a PA star rating to see their top recommended players by CA & PA

Scouting is heavily PA-based, so a top scout will STILL recommend you a 18yo player with 150PA, despite his attributes being awful (and therefor his CA being low, too low to ever fulfill his potential)..

Yep, sounds realistic enough & CA & PA aren't necessarily related. I have players in my youth team with CA 1/2* & PA 4 1/2* & fully expect them to reach 4 1/2 * CA, some are well on their way

So especially when scouting for younger players you'll literally get dozens of reports about players you wouldn't have bothered to ask your scouts about... and all of that just because your bestest scouts can't understand an "all-orange octagon" won't ever become a Good Premier Division Player, no matter how hard you try.

While we patiently wait for a better scounting system, we'd at least use better filtering

Just sort the players by your Scouts PA star rating, take a better look at them & make your decisions, we're the managers afterall & decide whether this player is good enough or potentially good enough for our club. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes wrong just like real life

I cope fine with what we have, sure it's not perfect but nothing is perfect & I certainly don't think it needs an overhaul

[milnerpoint]

Not quick? How quick do you think RL teams sort through the potential superstars they're looking for?

Scouts will give you a CA star rating & a PA star rating to see their top recommended players by CA & PA

thats a very good point actually, in FM we can scout a player and get as much info as we need within 2-3 weeks, in real life as shown by an earlier example, Sanga was scouted for over 30 games before they were able to make a full decision on the player, we have it easy on FM!

[Smurf]

thats a very good point actually, in FM we can scout a player and get as much info as we need within 2-3 weeks, in real life as shown by an earlier example, Sanga was scouted for over 30 games before they were able to make a full decision on the player, we have it easy on FM!

Yeh and Bebe was signed without Ferguson even seeing him play.

Proves nothing.

Is there an option to scout for 30 games or a season?

[Smurf]

And as I said before.

I started a game in Football Manager many times. First thing I do is send out the scouts. Takes 2 - 3 weeks to get reports.

Other teams have already started signing players.

At least if you started with some prior knowledge based on your own experience (setup prior to starting a game like international experience etc.) then you could at least have a heads up on players.

[Johnny Ace]

Report card takes a day

[Smurf]

So basically you guys think that you should have no idea of players when you start the game and totally happy with relying on scout reports, sorting by value and attributes to find players.

You're happy that a manager in League 1 wouldn't know who the best player in League 1 was, even after 5 years in that league.

You're totally happy with that?

[milnerpoint]

Yeh and Bebe was signed without Ferguson even seeing him play.

Proves nothing.

Is there an option to scout for 30 games or a season?

Wenger didnt watch sanga play either Grimande (sp) did. So what Fergie did is exactly what we would do in the game, not watch any games and sign players based solely on what info our scouts give us. How much would they have really known about Bebe before signing him, he never played any big games against any big teams, there would have been no real stats of any importance to gather, nothing they signed him purely because a scout recommended him, the game covers this quite well i think.

[milnerpoint]

So basically you guys think that you should have no idea of players when you start the game and totally happy with relying on scout reports, sorting by value and attributes to find players.

You're happy that a manager in League 1 wouldn't know who the best player in League 1 was, even after 5 years in that league.

You're totally happy with that?

If you have managed in league 1 for 5 seasons and you dont know who the best player is in that league it is your own problem not a problem with the game, and i honestly did not mean that as a snide comment at all. I know nothing about league one, but if i was to start a game there i would pick up very quickly who to look out for and who was worthless, if i didnt i would never survive as a manager in that league.

[Johnny Ace]

So basically you guys think that you should have no idea of players when you start the game and totally happy with relying on scout reports, sorting by value and attributes to find players.

You're happy that a manager in League 1 wouldn't know who the best player in League 1 was, even after 5 years in that league.

You're totally happy with that?

Erm no because that's not the case at all. You don't start a game & know nothing about every player in the game

We start a game we instantly have a profile of (FOW depending) thousands of players plus all the other resources the game gives us mentioned God knows how many times already

The game even gives you the option to start the game without real players making it even more interesting

There really is no point going over this

[dafuge]

So basically you guys think that you should have no idea of players when you start the game and totally happy with relying on scout reports, sorting by value and attributes to find players.

You're happy that a manager in League 1 wouldn't know who the best player in League 1 was, even after 5 years in that league.

You're totally happy with that?

Personally I'm happy with the amount of information I'm given, I feel I could identify some of the top players in a league easily enough without resorting to my scouts. I'd find it even easier if I'd been playing for five years as I'd have a load of stats/awards to back it up.

I still like the competitions star players idea though, although it would just be cosmetic for me, I wouldn't use it for scouting purposes.

[jimi m]

wasnt Bebe recommended by uniteds worst assistant ever Carlos Queiroz..

Bebe only played a handful of games and everyone is judging him already from what I remember Ronaldo was ***** when he first played for Man U

[milnerpoint]

wasnt Bebe recommended by uniteds worst assistant ever Carlos Queiroz..

Bebe only played a handful of games and everyone is judging him already from what I remember Ronaldo was ***** when he first played for Man U

why was he the worst assistant, Fergie has on several times claim Queiroz was a major influence on the man u team and a major part of their success.

[milnerpoint]

I still like the competitions star players idea though, although it would just be cosmetic for me, I wouldn't use it for scouting purposes.

does the game not have this already tho, if you go into the champs league stats you can easily see who is performing the best in europe, who scores the most, most assists and various others, even at the end of the comp players get awards based on some of those stats so we can see who has been the stars for that season.

[dafuge]

does the game not have this already tho, if you go into the champs league stats you can easily see who is performing the best in europe, who scores the most, most assists and various others, even at the end of the comp players get awards based on some of those stats so we can see who has been the stars for that season.

I suppose it does in a way, but it seems to be from a statistical/historical point of view. It might be nice to see a list of star players in a preview to a season, from a media perspective.

[Johnny Ace]

Remember the old school star players for each team? Each team would have 3, I suppose adding that back in wouldn't hurt, wouldn't really help with anything but could be useful

Then again, I guess SI removed it for a reason

*just thinking out loud here

[milnerpoint]

I suppose it does in a way, but it seems to be from a statistical/historical point of view. It might be nice to see a list of star players in a preview to a season, from a media perspective.

you mean like a media thing that says along the lines of "player X is one to watch for in this years world cup" ?? I would quite like that actually it would make me send a scout to a few games he was involved in, although i have my scouts at all major tournaments at the moment but i would prob go to one of the games myself it i thought it would be worthwhile.

[SiN8]

I don't get why CA is a hidden attribute. My understanding is that CA is a derived from the attributes with different weights depending on positional familiarity. Since the underlying attribute values are shown, why not show the CA also? If you're going to muddle the CA through the scouting stars, it makes sense to do it to the attributes as well.

It's like a scout incorrectly rates Messi as 2 stars, but still rates his passing, movement, decision, etc as world-class.

[x42bn6]

I don't get why CA is a hidden attribute. My understanding is that CA is a derived from the attributes with different weights depending on positional familiarity. Since the underlying attribute values are shown, why not show the CA also? If you're going to muddle the CA through the scouting stars, it makes sense to do it to the attributes as well.

It's like a scout incorrectly rates Messi as 2 stars, but still rates his passing, movement, decision, etc as world-class.

You've just opened a can of worms... *backs away*

[SiN8]

When I used to have a PC, I always had mini-scout open so that it would display the CA, but not PA. It worked really well and I didn't fee like I was cheating.

Sadly there's no such tool on a mac and I'm subjected to scout's nonsensical JCA values. Why is a player 4 stars one week and 3 stars the next when his attributes stayed exactly the same? Very frustrating.

Either subject all attributes to JCA or just openly display the CA value.

[dafuge]

Perhaps we could have an 'average attribute' addition on a player's prfile that could be added to the columns that we can add to our player search/shortlists. Obviously it would only work for the players who's attributes that are not masked but it could give us a rough idea about the general ability of a player that isn't influenced by reputation.

I thinking adding the actual CA would be a step too far, but an 'average attribute' would give us something that we could have worked out for each player just by looking at their profiles (and using a calculator). It would just be an interpretation of the data that is already available to us.

*worms everywhere*

[ATW]

So it is fact! I am the only one left that does all this on a note pad

No to the CA thing, but I like dafuge'd idea....

[Smurf]

Erm no because that's not the case at all. You don't start a game & know nothing about every player in the game

We start a game we instantly have a profile of (FOW depending) thousands of players plus all the other resources the game gives us mentioned God knows how many times already

The game even gives you the option to start the game without real players making it even more interesting

There really is no point going over this

Yeh ok you go to Search for players.

It gives you list of players you know about. That's great.

But you can't evaluate how good the player is until you scout them.

I can sort by value for Under 18 and I get price ranges of 4m to 1m

I then scout these - which is over 100 players at times. Then I have to wait for scout reports to come back etc.

Listing 100 players from 4m to 1m is not a good guide to how good these players are. Nor does it tell me as a manager within the game who the best Under 18 in my league is or at least a roundup of promissing talent already in that league.

So I'm left scouting 100 players to find the next big thing in football. Sure I get good scout reports back then that narrows it down for me. Some 3m rated Under 18's come back with 2 stars, some 1m rated come back with 4 silver and 3 gold stars.

Sorting by value tells you nothing in this regard. And I'm not about to sit around comparing 100 players.

As a manager based in that league - I would have certain prebuilt knowledge about players. Playing in nPower Championship as Leeds manager I would at least be mentally aware that Norwich have had a wonderkid come through their youth ranks.

Now this wonderkid won't have great attributes, they won't have a high price tag etc. So every year you do the same dance when youth players come into the game.

Search>Sort by Value> Scout the 100 players in the league U18 and get scout star reports.

Would it be so awful if you "heard" about a wonderkid through other channels? Coaches, Media, ex-players, your U19 Manager who manages your U19 and is at every game? Would it be nice to have these type of reports in identifying targets?

Rather than the tired old Search>Filter by Value> Scout 100 players > Wait about 2 weeks for all the reports.

All I'm saying is that you would have knowledge from hearsay from other sources besides Scouting and besides the Search screen in identifying targets.

Having your own "Knowledge Area" within the game where other sources have identified targets in other teams could be a way of giving you a heads up on the top players without having to do finger dances or 100 player reports every 6 months.

So what if I'm the Leeds manager in nPower Championship and I hear about a Wonderkid at Real Madrid through the grapevine? How is that any different to the real world? I would never be able to sign them.

There are loads of "wonderkids" who have moved from their clubs at 16/17/18, some make it, some don't.

I'm not saying to give me a list of every wonderkid in the game or that I should be able to sign them all and they all become brilliant.

I'm using the term "wonderkid" very loosely here. I'd be happy to hear through other sources of players with PA from 145 to 200 - that would still involve me in scouting and following them.

Now I know that scout reports can identify these players with high star ratings. But I'm not talking about sending out scouts - sure that can still happen I've no problem with that.

But just somehow even a "Player Speculation" list or "Players to Watch" or something.

Didn't Wenger recommend a player to Paul Jewel before?

Check out this News Report on Goal.com (found by a pure fluke when I was looking for something else)

Arsenal Legend Dennis Bergkamp Recommends Ajax Starlet Christian Eriksen To Arsene Wenger - Report

Arsenal are leading the race to sign exciting youngster Christian Eriksen from Ajax, after former Gunners' striking legend Dennis Bergkamp issued a glowing recommendation of the

According to the News of the World, the 18-year-old sensation has impressed fromer Holland international Bergkamp, who is now a coach at Dutch giants Ajax.

The teenager featured for his country at this summer's World Cup 2010, where he appeared as a substitute in the 3-1 loss to Japan, and showed a glimpse of his potential.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2010/06/27/1997747/arsenal-legend-dennis-bergkamp-recommends-ajax-starlet-christian-

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

So if this happened in the game - it would be added to my "Knowledge Area" and perhaps a highly-recommended star beside their name.

I don't have to move on this. It would be just a young player, recommended by someone else other than a current coach, scout etc.

Of course I still have the choice of following them around, scouting, watching them play etc.

Or I might not be in the market for a stirker at all and I dismiss the recommendation.

[CaptainPlanet]

The whole two footed thing also needs to play a part.

[ATW]

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

So if this happened in the game - it would be added to my "Knowledge Area" and perhaps a highly-recommended star beside their name.

I don't have to move on this. It would be just a young player, recommended by someone else other than a current coach, scout etc.

Of course I still have the choice of following them around, scouting, watching them play etc.

Or I might not be in the market for a stirker at all and I dismiss the recommendation.

tbh that is not really what you have been talking about all thread. Arsene Wenger knows about him BECAUSE of an outside person - not because he's a world famous manager in the Premiership. You made it out like as a manager you should know about him automatically. If Arsene Wenger was interested though, he would either go watch him or send his scout to take a look.

I agree though, former players/people on your friendly list SHOULD suggest players to you every so often. In fact, my clubs current keeper was suggested to our former manager by Christian Dailly.

[aderow]

Report card takes a day

I think he was talking about sending scouts out to scout a country or region. I don't think you get reports back the next day when you do this.

Eugene makes a good point. At the end of the day, if a stars list was made, it would be merely cosmetic and would not hurt anyone.

I understand where he is coming from when he was talking about making a new save and other teams have already had bids accepted while you are still in the process of scouting players. It can feel like the AI has a bit of an advantage in this regard and it can be a bit troublesome if they have a wallet as fat as man city's.

[Johnny Ace]

Yeh ok you go to Search for players.

It gives you list of players you know about. That's great.

But you can't evaluate how good the player is until you scout them.

I can sort by value for Under 18 and I get price ranges of 4m to 1m

I then scout these - which is over 100 players at times. Then I have to wait for scout reports to come back etc.

Listing 100 players from 4m to 1m is not a good guide to how good these players are. Nor does it tell me as a manager within the game who the best Under 18 in my league is or at least a roundup of promissing talent already in that league.

So I'm left scouting 100 players to find the next big thing in football. Sure I get good scout reports back then that narrows it down for me. Some 3m rated Under 18's come back with 2 stars, some 1m rated come back with 4 silver and 3 gold stars.

I'd given up on this thread but surely you tell how good a player from his attributes? That's the whole reason we're given them, to you it sounds like they may as be hidden. I don't scout hundreds of players, for example, to find a RB, I search for the attributes I'm after take a look at 5 or 6 players (if there's even that many left) & scout 2 or 3 for my scout's feedback, if I'm desperate I'll just ask for a report card which takes a day. It's not hard

Unearthing potential gems is trickier not it's not like teams sign 5+ wonderkids a season anyway

[Johnny Ace]

Balls

......

[SiN8]

I'd given up on this thread but surely you tell how good a player from his attributes? That's the whole reason we're given them, to you it sounds like they may as be hidden. I don't scout hundreds of players, for example, to find a RB, I search for the attributes I'm after take a look at 5 or 6 players (if there's even that many left) & scout 2 or 3 for my scout's feedback, if I'm desperate I'll just ask for a report card which takes a day. It's not hard

Unearthing potential gems is trickier not it's not like teams sign 5+ wonderkids a season anyway

What if you weren't looking for a specific position, just talented players in general? Sounds like you'd have to use all sorts of different attribute profiles, i.e. fast striker vs tall striker, etc... And there's the whole two-footed problem where attributes will be much lower if players can use both feet.

You can probably do all of this via attribute search, but it's cumbersome and takes away the fun aspect of a game.

[x42bn6]

I'd given up on this thread but surely you tell how good a player from his attributes? That's the whole reason we're given them, to you it sounds like they may as be hidden. I don't scout hundreds of players, for example, to find a RB, I search for the attributes I'm after take a look at 5 or 6 players (if there's even that many left) & scout 2 or 3 for my scout's feedback, if I'm desperate I'll just ask for a report card which takes a day. It's not hard

Unearthing potential gems is trickier not it's not like teams sign 5+ wonderkids a season anyway

The issue is that you tend to favour having extremely specific searches, maybe 8-10 sets of criteria, to judge a player. Which is fine, except that this, to me, is far too specific. For example, searching for wingers with pace > 15 and crossing > 15 omits wingers that have pace > 14 and crossing > 16 - possibly equally good depending on your tactic. It is also skewed by two-footedness.

What Eugene Tyson is therefore suggest is that we have some measure that will act as a very, very general guide, such that both wingers above are in the same sort of "ability category" - be it CA or star ratings. So instead of putting 8-10 criteria down, you have 3-4 criteria of which one of them is "greater than or equal to 4 stars". So instead of looking for a specific criteria, you get all wingers who are roughly on the same sort of level, and you can use this as a basis to judge further, with some tolerance levels.

As an extreme example, a winger who has pace 20 and crossing 20 but every other attribute is 1 would get returned from a search with criteria pace > 15, crossing > 15, but for our "> 4 stars" criteria, he would not, because he's clearly a one-trick pony and not actually that good. You may argue that it's easy to spot, but having some general criteria makes it more accessible to the user (less clicks and scans).

On a general level, one could envision a scenario where your team simply needs players, and as a starting point, you can look for "all 4 star players". No specific criteria in terms of attributes - just look for "all players that will in general improve my team". From there, you can target your search further (i.e. look for all unhappy players; look for all players with expiring contracts, look for the cheapest player, etc.).

Having a general rating is of course risky in the sense that you may get a player who is arguably "3.4 stars", so he is rounded down to 3 stars and hence missed. I believe this is worth it, since there is also a risk of making your own searches, minus star rating searches, too specific to the point where you miss players who are just outside the boundaries of your search but may have other redeeming qualities.

The ability to search via "star ratings" also implies that your method of specific searches is still possible - but you will have the visual aids of "star ratings" to help you even further.

Does it make it too easy? I'd argue it makes it more accessible and I can use my time doing other things on FM. And this is not necessarily the same as "easier". As I mentioned previously, games have two forms of difficulty - ease of getting into the game, and ease of playing the game. I believe this change impacts the former more than the latter, because it is still not a silver bullet to the extent you have a 99% chance of finding the best players because of the change.

[CaptainPlanet]

I also think the attribute masking is a bit silly currently. So for some reason we know that Player A has 15 acceleration, but we have no idea at all what his pace is. Not even an indication. What is the source of data for players that we haven't scouted? "My mate told me that Jim Jones is really good at crossing!"

[Johnny Ace]

tbh that is not really what you have been talking about all thread. Arsene Wenger knows about him BECAUSE of an outside person - not because he's a world famous manager in the Premiership. You made it out like as a manager you should know about him automatically. If Arsene Wenger was interested though, he would either go watch him or send his scout to take a look.

I agree though, former players/people on your friendly list SHOULD suggest players to you every so often. In fact, my clubs current keeper was suggested to our former manager by Christian Dailly.

That'd would work, they're always pointing out potential threats in games (which I find tedious) in what I assume is the local media, so having them say, in my case "Trevor Francis thinks Johnny Ace should take a look at so & so striker" etc

That's a lot different to me just being given a list of potential strikers by the game or me automatically being able to to see all the potential 5* strikers in the game

I suppose transfer rumours is the only thing we have it this sense

[Johnny Ace]

I also think the attribute masking is a bit silly currently. So for some reason we know that Player A has 15 acceleration, but we have no idea at all what his pace is. Not even an indication. What is the source of data for players that we haven't scouted? "My mate told me that Jim Jones is really good at crossing!"

I guess it is. What we see is our knowledge of the player, so unless we've had them scouted or seen them ourselves we won't know everything about them

[Johnny Ace]

Does it make it too easy? I'd argue it makes it more accessible and I can use my time doing other things on FM. And this is not necessarily the same as "easier". As I mentioned previously, games have two forms of difficulty - ease of getting into the game, and ease of playing the game. I believe this change impacts the former more than the latter, because it is still not a silver bullet to the extent you have a 99% chance of finding the best players because of the change.

I see how you mean but I think it would make it too simple, so do SI as is it seems

It wouldn't be a very specific search, it's like how you use to search for players on CM '93 & the series has evolved since then

To simply put it, I want a top notch striker, I look at all the 5* rated strikers - that tells me nothing about them. , I want a fast, pacey, clinical striker, but then I have to search through all the none pacey, clinical 5* strikers to find the Michael Owen I'm looking for. Where I could just set a search for strikers with 17 upwards on acceleration, pace & finishing & take it from there

[x42bn6]

I see how you mean but I think it would make it too simple, so do SI as is it seems

I'd like to know where the second part comes from.

Why would it make it too simple? You will still need to do your own scouting for attributes.

Not everyone searches like you.

It wouldn't be a very specific search, it's like how you use to search for players on CM '93 & the series has evolved since then

To simply put it, I want a top notch striker, I look at all the 5* rated strikers - that tells me nothing about them.

It tells you they are very, very good strikers who would be a very good strikers for your team. Some may be quick, some may be slow but brilliant in all other areas.

, I want a fast, pacey, clinical striker, but then I have to search through all the none pacey, clinical 5* strikers to find the Michael Owen I'm looking for. Where I could just set a search for strikers with 17 upwards on acceleration, pace & finishing & take it from there

It's useful if you want to search for a very specific role, but less useful if you are looking for players you can mould or players you are looking to mould your team around.

And this is the sort of search some of us are looking for.

For your search, you could end up with players who are only quick and good at finishing - i.e. terrible mental attributes, for example. The star system would let you spot this immediately, as they would have 2 stars, for example. You won't have to do additional filters or order searches by different columns - it's immediately apparent, as it should be.

Sometimes, especially at lower levels, you don't really have a choice for specific attributes - you just want to get the best possible, and star ratings are very good for this. You may want a creative forward - you may be forced to rely on a lower-league battering ram instead. But the star rating will be useful to suggest they are both equally effective on average - just in different ways.

[jimi m]

why was he the worst assistant, Fergie has on several times claim Queiroz was a major influence on the man u team and a major part of their success.

because when queiroz was there united were going downhill Djemba Djemba and the like.Hewent on to manage Real and done nothing, Portugal, nothing, I dont rate him anyway.

[CaptainPlanet]

because when queiroz was there united were going downhill

Yeah, two league titles, a european cup, league cup, world club cup, two community shields in 4 years whilst he was there.

I hate it when clubs go downhill like that.

[Smurf]

tbh that is not really what you have been talking about all thread. Arsene Wenger knows about him BECAUSE of an outside person - not because he's a world famous manager in the Premiership. You made it out like as a manager you should know about him automatically. If Arsene Wenger was interested though, he would either go watch him or send his scout to take a look.

I agree though, former players/people on your friendly list SHOULD suggest players to you every so often. In fact, my clubs current keeper was suggested to our former manager by Christian Dailly.

It bloody well is exactly what I've been talking about all thread.

I merely suggested now how you would come to a conclusion that someone was a wonderkid, that someone would recommend them to you. So you don't rely on your scouts or the media to find potential stars.

All I've done is elaborated on how you generate this knowledge. You forge relationships with managers and coaches and players, so that once in a while they recommend a player, and they are added to "your knowledge area" with some sort of "star" recommendation. This is isolated from the Scout reports and the Search screen. It gives you an overview of players that have potentials that would be around the same as your current squad. So if I'm in Leauge 1 I don't need a coach telling me to look at Jack Wilshire, he's a great talent. Rather they'd say "Ross Campbell in League 2 is doing quite well and showing potential" or "Norwich's youth academy has produced a fine promising defender in Joe Wolkowski" or something.

This only elaborates on my idea on how you would have knowledge within the game. A screen where players are recommended by others besides your scouts. And I'm not wanting them to recommend people that are brutal - just the one's at similar levels or higher (of course with a few bad eggs thrown in to make it not too easy).

But basically - you build up knowledge of players in the game without relying on Scout reports, filtering, sorting by value, or attributes. You are made aware of players by others.

I'd much rather 5 news items relating to potential players or top players every 6 months than 30 messages on International Managers that got sacked.

But you could have a former player who is managing in a different league go "Hey this guy isn't half bad"

That's how the knowledge area could be populated.

Again - it's just an idea.

[Smurf]

I've also been talking about signing scouts that they head off and start scouting straight away - sure you can get them to be more specific.

And I think that a scout that has JPA and JPP would be able to shortlist a few wonderkids he has discovered - thus adding them to "your knowledge area" as promising players.

It's really all about giving the Manager (you) more of a role in recognising players other than scouting and sorting by value and attributes.

Scouting needs to be overhauled.

I got sidetracked explaining relentlessly how a manager would have some knowledge of players already in their leauge or they hear through the grapevine, which I seem to have finally convinced some people.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah, two league titles, a european cup, league cup, world club cup, two community shields in 4 years whilst he was there.

I hate it when clubs go downhill like that.

hahahahahahahahaahahahahaha thank you.

[dafuge]

I got sidetracked explaining relentlessly how a manager would have some knowledge of players already in their leauge or they hear through the grapevine, which I seem to have finally convinced some people.

I don't think anyone is denying this, since it is in the game already. The big dispute seems to be how this information is displayed.

Personally I don't mind anything that just displays information that is available to us anyway (like an average attribute rating) but I would be against anything extra (like a CA star). I'm very much in favour of more media hype over youngsters though.

[Johnny Ace]

I'd like to know where the second part comes from.

Because SI don't make it that simple

Why would it make it too simple? You will still need to do your own scouting for attributes.

Not everyone searches like you..

How do people search for specific players then?

It tells you they are very, very good strikers who would be a very good strikers for your team. Some may be quick, some may be slow but brilliant in all other areas.

It's useful if you want to search for a very specific role, but less useful if you are looking for players you can mould or players you are looking to mould your team around.

And this is the sort of search some of us are looking for.

I find the search does that fine

For your search, you could end up with players who are only quick and good at finishing - i.e. terrible mental attributes, for example. The star system would let you spot this immediately, as they would have 2 stars, for example. You won't have to do additional filters or order searches by different columns - it's immediately apparent, as it should be.

I did say "too simply put it" when I search I obviously search for more than 3 attributes

Sometimes, especially at lower levels, you don't really have a choice for specific attributes - you just want to get the best possible, and star ratings are very good for this. You may want a creative forward - you may be forced to rely on a lower-league battering ram instead. But the star rating will be useful to suggest they are both equally effective on average - just in different ways.

Just suit the search for your level

We have different views on this buddy & there's no point us going back & forth on it, I respect your ideas but I find what we have is good enough, you don't, end of

Have you put your suggestions to SI?

[Smurf]

I don't think anyone is denying this, since it is in the game already. The big dispute seems to be how this information is displayed.

Personally I don't mind anything that just displays information that is available to us anyway (like an average attribute rating) but I would be against anything extra (like a CA star). I'm very much in favour of more media hype over youngsters though.

I like that idea - it would definitely add a missing element to the gaming world.

Yeh it is more of a cosmetic change to how the information is displayed.

That's why I was thinking a "Managers Knowledge Area" (a better name required) would be interesting. As it could show perhaps just the most promising players scouted, and perhaps some information regarding top performers in leagues that you are subscribed to be it; player rating, scorers, tacklers, assists etc. and even introducing players recommended or touted as the next big thing by staff that you have made friends with within the game.

I'm not saying it should give you all the answers but just a better consolidated view of the data already available in the game.

I really can't see the harm in that at all.