[FM11] Heathxxx Lower League Management Approach

[heathxxx]

Heathxx just wondered if you could help me with my player search , when i do a search filter i seem to be putting to many attributes in and have to drop the attribute numbers really low to find players , i dont know what i need and what are nice to have ? any chance you can put me in the right direction ? im trying your 424

Churchy

As a quick pointer, refer to posts #8 to #11 which show the highlighted "key" attributes for each of the positions/roles. For basic searches, perhaps try filtering the search by position, then each of those key attributes set to 10. If you struggle to get any results, try dropping a couple of the attributes you value the least, to 8.

As you will see in those posts, there's a few highlighted attributes for some of the players, that are below 10, so it's not always possible to get players in double figures for all the key attributes for their position/role. The aim though, is to get as near as you can.

[madmike]

Hi Heath, great thread by the way. Have you made any changes to player instructions at all?? Like lowering long shots and perhaps changing certain players to shorter or more direct passing, tacking hard/easy?? I assume as you have stated that it is a basic tactic that everything is just left to default? Thanks

[Adam Church]

Many thanks heathxx , i will give it a go , i think i aim to high

As a quick pointer, refer to posts #8 to #11 which show the highlighted "key" attributes for each of the positions/roles. For basic searches, perhaps try filtering the search by position, then each of those key attributes set to 10. If you struggle to get any results, try dropping a couple of the attributes you value the least, to 8.

As you will see in those posts, there's a few highlighted attributes for some of the players, that are below 10, so it's not always possible to get players in double figures for all the key attributes for their position/role. The aim though, is to get as near as you can.

[heathxxx]

Hi Heath, great thread by the way. Have you made any changes to player instructions at all?? Like lowering long shots and perhaps changing certain players to shorter or more direct passing, tacking hard/easy?? I assume as you have stated that it is a basic tactic that everything is just left to default? Thanks

As yet, I've made no changes to the default individual player settings. Just trying to keep things as simple as possible at this stage. Seems to be working fine with the players I have at the moment, but obviously you can always fine-tune things. As yet, I haven't seen the need to do so in my own save.

[madmike]

Ok, thanks for quick reply. Keep up the good work

[heathxxx]

Many thanks heathxx , i will give it a go , i think i aim to high

Nothing wrong with aiming high. You always want to be trying to get the best players you can to your club.

One quick way to find some quality players, which is how I managed to get Viola and Laslandes to my club, was to do a filtered search for unattached players, with at least 1 international cap. Likely most won't show the slightest interest and although Viola did, Laslandes didn't, until I offered him a trial first. When he was at the club on trial, he was more open to negotiation for a permanent move.

Simply put, with some players, you need to be persistent. Try getting them on trial first. If they're prepared to come on trial, then there's a good chance they'll sign a contract.

[Bigshow1]

Absolutely fantastic thread mate. Been waiting for something else from you like this since FM9.

[heathxxx]

As a bit of an update regarding my fixtures so far, here's my fixtures up to my most recent game against Northwich in the FA Cup.

The fixtures below the red line are using the 4-4-2 system I've described in detail. Those above, during pre-season and the first couple of competitive matches, were using the wide 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1 systems, that I wasn't totally happy with.

On reflection, pre-season and those first two games wasn't bad in terms of results particularly, but I just felt to get the most out of the two systems, I needed to use some more detailed roles and instructions, that I didn't feel my players were fully capable of.

I'm happy with the 4-4-2 though and that's what I shall continue to use, unchanged, throughout the course of the season.

Those friendly matches against the reserves of big teams, are the money spinners I mentioned earlier. As results go, considering they were using my own reserve and trial players, they're not bad either. However, I was more interested in the circa 40k per match they were bringing in for gate receipts. My finances are beginning to look much better. I probably won't bother much with them once I break even, although it is a very tempting way to make lots of money for the club. Theoretically, if you had a fixture a week over 52 weeks, you could make the club over 2 million pounds in a year.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Heath, good stuff. Am still wading through it - had a busy weekend away from FM! A few queries so far:

Post 1: You have over double the recommended qty of players loaded up - will that be a processing speed issue after a few seasons?

Post 5:

Release all youth players? in your 09' thread you said they were worth keeping as so lowly paid, why the change of opinion on this?

lastly...

You say....

"Even if you manually search and find a player in a country outside your permitted scouting areas, you're still able to get your scouts or coaches to produce an individual scout report for a player. ".

I cannot do that, if I find a player in (eg) Belgium as I can only scout France, UK & Eire I cannot seem to scout him...or am I missing something important here?

[RedBlueEagle]

Those friendly matches against the reserves of big teams, are the money spinners I mentioned earlier. As results go, considering they were using my own reserve and trial players, they're not bad either. However, I was more interested in the circa 40k per match they were bringing in for gate receipts. My finances are beginning to look much better. I probably won't bother much with them once I break even, although it is a very tempting way to make lots of money for the club. Theoretically, if you had a fixture a week over 52 weeks, you could make the club over 2 million pounds in a year.

This is a cracking idea. Not only will it raise bgig money for my broke Welling side but it will give god game time to my reserves and young players. I've been following the Training Masterclass thread also and some of the youngsters don't improve so much because of lack of game time. This is the answer.

I have found that your tactic using Control has not worked for me. I guess Welling are not so highly thought of. I have changed my away starting strategy to Counter and so far it has made all the difference.

[heathxxx]

Heath, good stuff. Am still wading through it - had a busy weekend away from FM! A few queries so far:

Post 1: You have over double the recommended qty of players loaded up - will that be a processing speed issue after a few seasons?

Quite possibly, but having played several seasons before in previous versions of the game, with similar settings, I've not noticed any significant issues. Sure, the game processes slower than using less data, but nothing I can't live with.

Post 5:

Release all youth players? in your 09' thread you said they were worth keeping as so lowly paid, why the change of opinion on this?

In this particular save, they were all poor players. Nearly all of them rated one star or less. Potential ability reported was virtually non-existent too, so not worth keeping them. Even though they were probably only on about 50 pounds per week maximum, times that by about 16+ players and you free up considerable wage budget for better players, who'll actually do something for the club.

lastly...

You say....

"Even if you manually search and find a player in a country outside your permitted scouting areas, you're still able to get your scouts or coaches to produce an individual scout report for a player. ".

I cannot do that, if I find a player in (eg) Belgium as I can only scout France, UK & Eire I cannot seem to scout him...or am I missing something important here?

You're right, well spotted!

This wasn't actually the case for previous versions of the game, as I'm quite sure you could get a scout report for any player, anywhere in the world, irrespective of where you were "allowed" to scout. You can still add them to your shortlist though.

One way around this obstacle though, could be to try to get the player on trial, even if they're under contract with a club, sometimes you can get them on trial. I don't think it's possible with players on amateur contracts though.

I'll change the OP though, to reflect the correct information.

[foolier]

I tried playing friendlies away to PL reserve clubs, the attendance away to Chelsea reserves was 698 and away ti L'pool was 897.

Got 9k playing away to Leeds though.

[heathxxx]

This is a cracking idea. Not only will it raise bgig money for my broke Welling side but it will give god game time to my reserves and young players.

Certainly. Though I should stress that in many respects, this could be seen as a way of exploiting the game, when it comes to the financial gains that are possible. So, use it as you see fit, or don't use it. It's up to the individual to play the game how they want to.

I've been following the Training Masterclass thread also and some of the youngsters don't improve so much because of lack of game time. This is the answer.

If you've read through that thread, you'll have seen Cleon's comments, which although I am taking more of an interest when it comes to training, I have to agree with Cleon's thoughts regarding the training module. It has improved in FM11 certainly, but there's not enough to give me the desire to get as involved with that side of the game as I would with anything tactical. Although you can indeed shape the distribution of certain player attributes with tailored training schedules, there's still no substitute for competitive match experience. Bear in mind that friendlies aren't competitive fixtures as such and neither really are reserve or youth fixtures. Players gain the most from first team action.

I've always preferred to develop young players quickly, by playing them in the first team. That doesn't mean you have to play them in every match for them to develop quickly, but it helps if they're given frequent matches to develop well, even if it's coming off the bench.

I have found that your tactic using Control has not worked for me. I guess Welling are not so highly thought of. I have changed my away starting strategy to Counter and so far it has made all the difference.

What's probably important to say at this stage, is that it depends entirely on the squad of players you have, their ability when compared with opponents and how you look at reputation and match odds.

Personally, I've never been one to take much notice of match odds or reputation, unless of course I'm a team like Telford, playing someone a gulf apart like Manchester United in the cup. At the level I'm playing, not only am I confident in the squad I've assembled, but I also have the pre-match feedback which tells me that my squad is stronger than my opponents in most, if not all areas. This gives me the flexibility to choose more what starting strategy I wish to start with, based upon my own preferences.

As my team is already technically and mentally superior to most of my opponents, the "control" strategy works well for me. At the moment, the only other strategy I use, either to start with or during matches, is "attacking". Again, this is because I'm confident in the strength of my team.

If you're getting feedback that opponents are stronger in most areas, or weaker, or on a par, then it's perhaps wise to adapt your starting strategy to one you feel most comfortable with. As a rule of thumb, if your team is on a par with opponents and odds are evenly matched or narrow one way or the other, then I would probably use "balanced" home or away, or maybe "attacking" at home. If favourites with good odds, then probably attacking home or away. If underdogs, then probably "counter-attack" away and maybe "control" at home. I have to admit, I never use "defend", as it's just not in my nature.

[heathxxx]

I tried playing friendlies away to PL reserve clubs, the attendance away to Chelsea reserves was 698 and away ti L'pool was 897.

Got 9k playing away to Leeds though.

Try home friendlies through your first team, but use your reserve/backup/youth players in the matches. If you're arranging friendlies for your reserve team, against Premier League reserve teams, home or away, the attendances will be poor. It has to be your first team fixtures you arrange the friendlies through.

[foolier]

yeah, it was my first team mate.

am in my third season with gloucester.

[heathxxx]

Hmm... not sure what to say then.

Tell you what, try arranging some friendly matches via your first team fixture list, against the reserve teams of Celtic, Rangers, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Aston Villa, etc...

Then post me an image like this:

That's from the menu on the right when you're arranging the fixture. Don't forget to make it a home fixture. I'll then be able to see what the estimated revenue is for the match. Against the likes of those teams, at Whaddon Road (which is a little bigger than Telford's ground), you should be getting estimates of 40k to 50k revenue, I would have thought.

Only other thing I can think of, is if there's some issue with Gloucester playing at Whaddon Road, being it's Cheltenham Town's ground.

[foolier]

Will do that tomorrow, off the game now now due to gf wanting to spend time with me, it sucks (posting this quickly while shes in the bath).

Good thread though mate.

I am 5th in third season with Gloucester after 12 games, finished 14th in first season, 5th in second and got hammered in play offs and this season has been okay (in all 3 seasons board just wants me to consilidate), only lost once but have drawn 6 times and always struggle against teams I am heavy favourties to beat, even though I put things like 'expect a win' if at home or 'we can win this' if away,might try 'relax pressure is off'.

I play bit like you do with a 442, have more expressive and more creativity etc all on, with fluid and attacking settings, only things I change are narrow and slow away from home and quick and wide at home.

I play short passing if its dry etc, if not direct.

Does okay but do concede more then I would like (My defender settings are same as yours) but just need to turn draws into wins and have less complacency.

Also losing lots of money, 300k in the red.

Not had one job offer yet though.

[MartinGregory84]

Ive kept two clean sheets trying this out but scored non :S

[heathxxx]

It's the same sort of defensive system I've used for a number of releases now. Though if you want to make it even tighter, you can always go into the "classic" sliders and drop the mentality of the defensive orientated MC to the same as the DC "stopper".

[foolier]

I have my right forward on support and deep lying, think it would be better to have both strikers on attack?

[heathxxx]

I currently prefer both on attack, but it depends who you have available. On support, he's probably going to drop even deeper and also likely to play with his back to goal. If you check the differences when you swap between attack and support, checking the highlighted attributes, you'll notice in support, strength, dribbling and teamwork become key attributes.

The dribbling will aid any runs he makes from deep positions, strength to hold off opponents, teamwork to play in team-mates, as he'll be a provider more now too.

So look at the attributes of the players you have and these should help you decide which roles best suit their abilities.

[thezogsageordie]

On the subject of friendlies against Premiership reserve teams, a few days ago I decided to create my own friendlies and I now choose to play away against foreign opponents (usually 4 "money spinners" of approx £12k) and then a few easy foreign teams, in the hope my team gives 'em a good pasting. I like to keep my game realistic, and I think this is quite fair. Each to their own though, as the saying goes.

[heathxxx]

Pleasingly, have just beaten Alfreton away 7-0 to record our 11th straight league victory.

The key to this win for me, was observation.

Poor weather conditions and a soggy pitch. A pair of slow centre-backs with poor composure and bravery, plus a beaming grin from myself as I formulate my plans!

So, with the opposition instructions I singled them both out for closing down and hard tackling. Then, a few moments into the game, I switched from my "control" starting strategy to "attack", plus I used the shouts "get the ball forward", "pump the ball into the box" and "hassle opponents". Essentially, shouts to play more of a long-ball game, into areas where we could keep those weak-links under pressure, added to my players hunting down their opponents like a pack of wild dogs

Sure enough, my forwards started pressuring the two dodgy centre-backs and forcing errors. My wingers and full backs also increased the pressure by firing good long crosses into the box. At half-time, we were 5-0 up and the opposing players I'd pinpointed for their weakness, were having a torrid time.

Needless to say, they opted for damage limitation in the second half, but we still scored a further two goals by keeping them under pressure. I'd also made a couple of changes at half-time. One of my wingers was tiring, so a fresh pair of legs was helpful. Also, my "Lord of the Dance" (every time he scores ) Viola is 40, so not exactly blessed with the best stamina, so I brought on my other golden oldie, Lilian Laslandes. Viola had scored two in the first half and Laslandes scored two in the second. Both play in the Deep-Lying Forward position, given their excellent vision and technical abilities.

The moral of the story then? Always look for weakness in your opponents. This is not a super tactic I'm using. Just a simple attacking 4-4-2 using the right attributes in the right roles, plus a careful eye on any weakness in opponents that can be seized upon - and the weather conditions.

Here's the pkm for the match: http://www.filefront.com/17582751/Alfreton v AFC Telford.pkm

[col_nufc1]

Hmm... not sure what to say then.

Tell you what, try arranging some friendly matches via your first team fixture list, against the reserve teams of Celtic, Rangers, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Aston Villa, etc...

Then post me an image like this:

That's from the menu on the right when you're arranging the fixture. Don't forget to make it a home fixture. I'll then be able to see what the estimated revenue is for the match. Against the likes of those teams, at Whaddon Road (which is a little bigger than Telford's ground), you should be getting estimates of 40k to 50k revenue, I would have thought.

Only other thing I can think of, is if there's some issue with Gloucester playing at Whaddon Road, being it's Cheltenham Town's ground.

I can't get the sort of money your getting :confused:.

I am Gateshead and i have tried loads of different big clubs reserve teams and the most i can get is £250 but with me paying them £2.5k.

The International stadium holds 11795k so i don't know why i can't get at least the same as you.

[heathxxx]

Hmmm... strange then.

Are you both using 11.1.1 patched version of the game? That's what I'm on. Might be something to do with it, but can't say for sure. The only other thing I can think of, is that I'm arranging these friendlies during the season and not in pre-season. To be honest, I didn't try arranging friendlies against any big clubs, or their reserves during pre-season, other than those already arranged. It was the near full-house against Blackburn reserves that lead me to trying this out other teams, to get some money in.

Can't understand what's happening for you guys though, unless I've somehow managed to discover a random and possibly rare glitch, that might only work for AFC Telford, or a few other teams.

However, this is the route I take exactly, as an example, to arranging these friendlies, during the course of the season:

First Team Fixtures ----> "Arrange Friendly" Tab ----> Opposition Tab & "Choose Other" (on next screen I click Arsenal) ----> Click "Arsenal Reserves" Tab & Click "Propose Friendly".

Then on the screen we've shown images for, I'm told:

- The board estimate that they will receive around £40k in revenue for this friendly.

- £3k will be paid to the participating team for appearing in this friendly.

I've played eleven friendlies during the season so far like this, against the reserve teams of Celtic (twice), Rangers, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd, Juventus, Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV.

Each time, attendances were between 5,000 and 5,500 in my stadium, which has a capacity of 6,300 and netting me between £35k to £45k profit (after the appearance fee) each time.

Very strange indeed. I'll be interested to see if more people either can arrange friendlies as I have, or cannot, as the case may be.

[col_nufc1]

Hmmm... strange then.

Are you both using 11.1.1 patched version of the game? That's what I'm on. Might be something to do with it, but can't say for sure. The only other thing I can think of, is that I'm arranging these friendlies during the season and not in pre-season. To be honest, I didn't try arranging friendlies against any big clubs, or their reserves during pre-season, other than those already arranged. It was the near full-house against Blackburn reserves that lead me to trying this out other teams, to get some money in.

Can't understand what's happening for you guys though, unless I've somehow managed to discover a random and possibly rare glitch, that might only work for AFC Telford, or a few other teams.

However, this is the route I take exactly, as an example, to arranging these friendlies, during the course of the season:

First Team Fixtures ----> "Arrange Friendly" Tab ----> Opposition Tab & "Choose Other" (on next screen I click Arsenal) ----> Click "Arsenal Reserves" Tab & Click "Propose Friendly".

Then on the screen we've shown images for, I'm told:

- The board estimate that they will receive around £40k in revenue for this friendly.

- £3k will be paid to the participating team for appearing in this friendly.

I've played eleven friendlies during the season so far like this, against the reserve teams of Celtic (twice), Rangers, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd, Juventus, Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV.

Each time, attendances were between 5,000 and 5,500 in my stadium, which has a capacity of 6,300 and netting me between £35k to £45k profit (after the appearance fee) each time.

Very strange indeed. I'll be interested to see if more people either can arrange friendlies as I have, or cannot, as the case may be.

Yes I am using patch 11.1.1 and that's the method i used to arrange the friendly but like i said £250 is the most i can get and I ve tried reserve teams like Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Rangers, Celtic, Inter, Milan, PSV, Ajax, PSG, Lyon and loads more.

So it must be a glitch on your game, lucky you but I am £300k in the red but i have reached the FA cup third round so hopefully I'll get a big Premier League team.

Great thread BTW and your formation is very similar to mine but i have my wingers on support and play with a advanced playmaker in CM.

[heathxxx]

That's a shame then, when you consider the potential gates that you might have at the International Stadium.

I'm at a loss wondering why what's happening for me with those friendlies, is happening for some people, but not for everyone. The only thing I could think about for the guy who was playing as Gloucester, was that they're currently ground sharing with Cheltenham Town, that maybe a large percentage of the takings from matches went to Cheltenham as part of the ground sharing deal. Guess there's probably more to it than that. I've ruled out ownership of the ground, as I know that like Telford, Gateshead rent the International Stadium (Gateshead's rent is cheaper too!!).

I've tried different days of the week for the fixtures, but I'm still getting the same estimated receipts. There's got to be some reason that I can't think of that's causing this, so I'm completely stumped to come up with why we're seeing differences. I may raise the question in the bugs forum, to see if anyone can come up with an explanation.

Back to the meat of the thread though and the minor differences in roles with our tactics you mentioned...

Ideally, I would like to use either two MC's in the deep-lying playmaker roles, one on "defend" and the other on "support", as this are the roles I use in a 4-2-3-1 formation. Alternatively, I would like to use an advanced playmaker MC with a ball-winning MC. I'm never comfortable using more defined roles like these, unless I feel I have the players with all the right attributes to perform in them to my liking. It's actually why I moved away from a 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1 I might normally use with a big club and high quality players, favouring a more basic set of roles, especially in the central midfield positions.

It's likely that I'll switch to one of the two variants I've mentioned in the future though, if I can bring in the right players to suit the roles. I've managed to get some very good players to my club at the moment, as you can probably tell from the images I've posted, but only in the context of the roles they're playing in.

I did look at the "support" option for my wingers too, but with the players I brought in, felt they were more suited to the "attack" roles assigned, with respect to their attributes. I must say though, I do like how my wingers attacking mentality, both keeps them aggressively looking to take on full-backs to fire in crosses from the byline, whilst also gets them attacking the far post when play is on the other side of the pitch. Their willingness to run at defenders or space is also pleasing to see, with them getting plenty of chances having beaten a defender, or from getting into spaces between defenders.

As I like to have a good sized squad at this level, with plenty of cover, I'm fortunate enough to have two good left wingers and two good right wingers. With their current settings, they actually account for roughly half of the teams goals between them. Many of those are from the winger out of possession, attacking the far post. Having two players for each wing position is very helpful with rotation and substitutions though, because during matches with their attacking settings, their condition can drop quickly if they're involved in a lot of play. So it's handy to be able to change a tired player for a fresh pair of legs, thus maintaining momentum in games and the pressure on opponents, as they too tire.

[Justified]

Good afternoon Heath Long time no see.

This thread is very interesting because I only picked up the game last week and what I wanted to do was like a core of defined roles within diffrent formations so one can change between several formations without tweaking too much. However I was thinking more along the lines of always playing a DMC in all three formations (4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1) so there is a player always specified to being a defensive midfielder in all formations. The extra midfielder in the middle was going to be setup like yours, a deep-laying playmaker. Question is what the real diffrence between playing a withdrawn MC to the DMC position and an out and out defensive MC. Sure it makes it more Asymmetrical but what would differ? Anyways I would like to know what role you'd give the other MC in a 4-3-3? I'm thinking box-to-box or advanced playmaker on attack?

[...Eternal Sin...]

heathxxx you tweak yours tactic? or you play the same

[Gazza56]

Great thread Heath..........just to confirm with you that i followed your advice with regards arranging friendlies, although i havent got a clue how to post a screenshot, i have arranged friendlies with reserves from Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, West Ham, Fulham, Aston Villa, Spurs, Liverpool...........my board have said that they will get £35k per match, with £3k costs.

My save is with Woking in the BSS btw...............keep up the great work mate!

[heathxxx]

Good afternoon Heath Long time no see.

This thread is very interesting because I only picked up the game last week and what I wanted to do was like a core of defined roles within diffrent formations so one can change between several formations without tweaking too much. However I was thinking more along the lines of always playing a DMC in all three formations (4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1) so there is a player always specified to being a defensive midfielder in all formations. The extra midfielder in the middle was going to be setup like yours, a deep-laying playmaker. Question is what the real diffrence between playing a withdrawn MC to the DMC position and an out and out defensive MC. Sure it makes it more Asymmetrical but what would differ? Anyways I would like to know what role you'd give the other MC in a 4-3-3? I'm thinking box-to-box or advanced playmaker on attack?

They're Justified and they're ancient... and they drive and ice cream vaaaan.... - Bonus points if you can remember who and what song that came from!

*cough* Well, anyway...

As mentioned around post #6 of the thread, I was looking at doing something along the same lines as you're doing, or have in mind. I was looking at usage of a wide 4-3-2-1 and an attacking 4-5-1 (which I still always think of as more of a 4-3-3 variant...), with the only difference being the use of an AMC or a DMC between the two. All the other positions and roles would be exactly the same. With regards to the fluidity aspect of a squad learning multiple formations and tactics, I believe that the more similarities there are between them, the more easily and quickly they'll learn and adapt to them.

In the 4-4-2 I'm using though, I'm not using a deep-lying playmaker, just two basic central midfielder roles, one set to "defend" and the other set to "support". It was a role I was going to use in both the 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1 formations, though from one of the two MC positions. The DMC in the 4-5-1 would probably have been an anchor man. I didn't feel I had the right players to perform properly as a DLP in either of the two formations, which is why I eventually went for the more simple 4-4-2 setup. In both the other formations, although I could have used the same settings for the two MC's as I'm using in this 4-4-2 now, it wouldn't have got me what I wanted when used in matches. Both those formations would have played more like asymmetrical systems, because of the movement from the players with the roles I would have used.

The anchor man in the 4-5-1 would have been sat centrally between and just in front of the centre-backs. One MC would have been a DLP set to "defend". The other MC would probably have been an advanced playmaker, set to "support". The effect would have been the DMC anchor man, with a MC deep-lying playmaker "defend" just ahead of him and the MC advanced playmaker "support" just a little further ahead of him, to drop into space between the midfield and attack.

In the 4-2-3-1 I would have again had an MC in the deep-lying playmaker "support" role, but I would probably have had the other MC on deep-lying playmaker "defend", to sit even deeper. The AMC would either have been an advanced playmaker "attack" or a simple attacking midfielder "attack".

In both, I would probably have gone for inside-forwards, rather than wingers.

Essentially, the quality of the players available to me, decided what sort of tactics I would work with. Although I was getting some really good players for this level of club, they didn't tick all the boxes when it came to the attributes I felt were necessary, for either system to function to a level I was going to be happy with. Hence the 4-4-2 with more basic roles.

So, it might seem a bit of a kop-out when I say that it's hard to advise what roles you should consider using. However, that's because it depends entirely on the players and their attributes available to you. Personally, I'd rather go for something more simple, where players can fit into the roles more perfectly, than try to ask a player to slot into a role he may not be ideally suited to. That's what's really important to consider, in my opinion. Weigh up if you think a player has all the right attributes, to perform in a role, to a high standard. If they don't tick all the right boxes, then I look at it that they could always be a potential weakness in the team.

Long-winded answer, I know, but hopefully clarifies my train of thought when it comes to roles and player attributes, within the bigger picture of a team playing successfully as a cohesive unit, that's each suited to their roles and what's asked of them.

heathxxx you tweak yours tactic? or you play the same

Historically, I've probably been a tweak-aholic... but with this formation, I change very little generally.

With starting strategies, I begin games with either "Control" or "Attack". I know the side I've assembled is better than any other in my division. Both in terms of their abilities and their suitability for the tactics I'm using. Mindful of that, I can "Control" games against most opponents, with more passing, movement and possession play. I use "Attack" more, when I spot any weakness in opposing teams, as this strategy is a more direct approach, where the aim is to get the ball forward quickly to players in the attacking third of the pitch, or players in good advanced positions.

Anything else is done purely using the shouts options. What I use will usually depend entirely on what I see happening during a match. For a better explanation of what each shout instruction means, read this section of the online game manual, which gives clear definitions for each: http://www.footballmanager.com/manual/227 or see post #50 where I've copied them into the thread.

Great thread Heath..........just to confirm with you that i followed your advice with regards arranging friendlies, although i havent got a clue how to post a screenshot, i have arranged friendlies with reserves from Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, West Ham, Fulham, Aston Villa, Spurs, Liverpool...........my board have said that they will get £35k per match, with £3k costs.

My save is with Woking in the BSS btw...............keep up the great work mate!

Good to see that someone else is able to get a little financial "help" now and again from those friendlies

Still think it's strange that not everyone has been able to do the same thing though...

[Gazza56]

I was Gateshead in a save with FM10.....i would think the main problem is that they only get low100's for any match.....so it may not be a problem with the game, just poor support

[wwfan]

They're Justified and they're ancient... and they drive and ice cream vaaaan.... - Bonus points if you can remember who and what song that came from!

KLF ft Tammy Wynette: Justified and Ancient

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

KLF ft Tammy Wynette: Justified and Ancient

...all bound for Mu Mu land!

Back on topic, Heath I have the same issue RE cannot rake in more than £7k from FR's vs Prem Reserve teams during the season. Can get more home to Irish & Scottish similar rep teams (£9k profit net of fee). Interestingly my club (Wimbledon) share their ground, so maybe that is the issue? Cant be Geography as Chelsea & Sours both raise only £7k. Man U would raise £45k but wont come anyway!

[heathxxx]

Now I've issued myself with an infraction for taking my own thread off-topic, good spotting there with KLF though wwfan But don't get me started tigerhgrrrrrr - because every time I see your user-name, I think of a certain stuffed tiger singing "The wonderful thing about Tigger..." with a lisp! You know what happens when a daft song pops into your mind... you've got it in your head all day!!

I'm still struggling to put my finger on a potential reason that not everyone is able to arrange the money-spinning friendlies tigerhgrrrrrr. Your example and with AFC Wimbledon (sharing Kingstonian's ground) and foolier with Gloucester (sharing Cheltenham's ground), would indeed suggest that ground sharing or ownership of a stadium, might be the reason. Yet AFC Telford who I'm using, don't own their ground. They rent it. But so do Gateshead rent their ground and col_nufc1 wasn't making the same sort of revenue I have enjoyed either.

Would certainly be interesting discover the exact reasoning, other than if it's a rare and exploitative (which I'm not denying it could be seen as anyway...) bug that may need resolving, one way or the other.

Back to things tactical though...

After an eleven match league winning streak, I finally dropped points for the first time this season.

Although my left winger decided to elbow an opponent in the face after about 5 minute, promptly receiving a straight red-card, my team still raced into a 2-0 lead at home to Workington. I hadn't changed the shape, as I believed that my team still had enough about them to see out the game. The match finished 2-2 however and I place the blame firmly in my own hands.

First of all, instead of maintaining the pressure, even with ten men, I decided to drop deeper, play a more controlled possession game and look to hit on the break or when spaces opened up. Secondly, my team-talk of "pleased" was perhaps a little too soft and I really think I should have chosen "encourage", which was available. Finally and relating to my overall approach to the game, I was possibly neglectful of the information presented to me in the staff meeting before the game, which provides comparisons between my team and the opponents.

For the very first time this season so far, there was an aspect of my opponents that was actually stronger than my own squad. Every opponent so far, my team has been assessed as being advantageous in all areas. Prior to this match however, I was advised that Workington were stronger in the air than my team. Although I didn't notice any significant thread in the first-half, even down to ten men, in the second-half, I most certainly did. They scored one from a set-piece, with a ball launched into the box from a free-kick and headed in. The equaliser was from a long punt forward, to a target man, who headed the ball down to an attacking midfielder, who fired in the shot from the edge of the box.

Essentially, as well as perhaps pulling one of my tall strikers back to help defend set-pieces (both are normally instructed to stay forward), I should have also gone tighter and man-marked the providers and tight marked the target man.

Still unbeaten however, so not all is lost, but a valuable lesson about observation, which even after a long winning streak and the examples I gave in the 7-0 drubbing of Alfreton, attention to detail is quite important if you want to win games. Complacency is a dangerous thing indeed

[Gazza56]

Just thought i would share my results against Premiership reserve teams. I am with Woking in the BSS.

Fulham Lost 2-1

West Ham Lost 4-1

Chelsea drew 1-1

Arsenal Lost 1-0

Spurs drew 1-1

Aston Villa Lost 1-0

Liverpool Lost 3-1

Man City drew 2-2

Was really pleased with the Chelsea game, they had many first team squad players and we conceded in the 93 min, and to make it worse, it was an own goal.

Man City had so many First team squad players playing, thought i was going to get butchered, but again, was leading 2-1 until the 91st min and conceded

Spurs game in truth we should of won, Spurs only had 3 shots at goal, one on target, which Peter Crouch scored, we had 57% of the game, hit the woodwork 5 times!

Just some names that i have signed on free's that i havent seen on here before, if they are, i apologise in advance, i havent seen them:

Gauthier Mahoto..........18 years old.........valued at £120,000

Liam O'Brien................18 years old.........valued at £65,000

Tasos Kapsalopodas.......not sure.............valued at £28,000

I followed exactly what Heath suggested, and came up with these guys, there are a few more, but i cant remember details.

[heathxxx]

I've been outplayed completely by a couple of the reserve teams of big clubs, but have also had some very encouraging results too Gazza56. Most pleasing of these were a 4-3 defeat against Man Utd reserves, who actually fielded a very strong side, plus a 4-1 win against Ajax reserves, 2-1 win against PSV reserves, 3-2 win against Rangers reserves and 2-2 against Celtic reserves. Other than a couple of games where my team was outplayed, the losses were very tight matches, which had I perhaps been taking them seriously, could have been drawn or won had I used the right shouts or been using first team players. Mainly it's pleasing since I'm always using reserve/backup players or trialists. In fairness though, they're still players with attributes that are suited to the positions and roles within the tactic.

That's the emphasis that I like to focus on. Matching the right player attributes with the right tactical positions and roles. I think that to do otherwise, is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Aside from the obvious financial benefits from these games I'm experiencing, it's also an opportunity to watch how well (or not) my backups and trial players perform with my tactics. I've got a plethora of Brazilian players on trial at the moment that my coaches rate around three stars or higher, so good enough for the first team. I'm offering them contracts, but both unfortunately and unsurprisingly, none have been able to gain a work permit so far.

As for the players you found, Gauthier Mahoto is a very good young player for this level. Very good indeed. He was one of my first batch of signings and is mentioned amongst the list of players in post #6. I haven't come across the other two before though, but if you want to share information about players, then don't forget to post their details, in the same format as everyone else has, in the following thread in Good Players & Teams Guide - FM11-The Unofficial Blue Square Premier & North/South Player Guide.

[Nottingham Forest]

Heath, thanks for telling me that loading more players than recommended hasn't really affected you before. It's given me the courage to load more than usual and manage in a division I would usually manage in. So thank you.

[heathxxx]

For a dreaded moment, I thought you were going to tell me there's smoke coming out the back of your PC or something!

[Nottingham Forest]

For a dreaded moment, I thought you were going to tell me there's smoke coming out the back of your PC or something!

Nope all is well at the moment. I may be back in here soon if I keep my job to get some tactics advice. That's a maybe though .

[Gazza56]

Just got promotion into the BSP........finished 2nd in the league and won the play-offs beating Farnborough in the final!

just signed Ivan Campo the old Bolton DM........he is 37 now, but should be good for tutoring, i hope!

[Giantplaything]

Regarding the friendly giving different amounts of earnings, I noticed this when selecting a particular team for a different date. When moving about the different dates I noticed the earnings varied wildly. £2k, £250, nothing. It's Wierd but I have a theory.

My understanding is the earnings is an estimate. It would be interesting to test by arranging 2 different friendlies with the same team just on different date (like a week apart). The results from match attendance/gate reciepts versus what was prediced would be interesting.

Good Thread Heath. KUTGW

[SgtPepper]

Hi heath, thank you very much for this thread. I'm following it with interest. I really like LLM without all those so called 'purist' rules. A game should be fun not work.

Anywho, I've been promoted to the BSP with your tactic with two wingers and two strikers. I'm in first place now after half a season in the bsp but now I've hit a bump in the road. It's after january first and what I read in the forum is that the AI seems to crack your tactic and you have to change it to get it to work again. Naturally my team has a few wingers and strikers so I really like to play with these but I can't seem to make it work. How do you cope with this so called tactic breaking?

[heathxxx]

Just got promotion into the BSP........finished 2nd in the league and won the play-offs beating Farnborough in the final!

just signed Ivan Campo the old Bolton DM........he is 37 now, but should be good for tutoring, i hope!

Well, he'll clearly be lacking in some of his physical abilities, but mentally and technically, he should still be a fantastic player for that level. That's a good capture.

Regarding the friendly giving different amounts of earnings, I noticed this when selecting a particular team for a different date. When moving about the different dates I noticed the earnings varied wildly. £2k, £250, nothing. It's Wierd but I have a theory.

My understanding is the earnings is an estimate. It would be interesting to test by arranging 2 different friendlies with the same team just on different date (like a week apart). The results from match attendance/gate reciepts versus what was prediced would be interesting.

Good Thread Heath. KUTGW

I've tried different dates myself, specifically with the friendlies (against reserves of big clubs), but haven't noticed much (if any) difference in estimated revenues. So, I'm still confused as to the reasons for the variety of feedback received regarding that "tip".

Hi heath, thank you very much for this thread. I'm following it with interest. I really like LLM without all those so called 'purist' rules. A game should be fun not work.

Anywho, I've been promoted to the BSP with your tactic with two wingers and two strikers. I'm in first place now after half a season in the bsp but now I've hit a bump in the road. It's after january first and what I read in the forum is that the AI seems to crack your tactic and you have to change it to get it to work again. Naturally my team has a few wingers and strikers so I really like to play with these but I can't seem to make it work. How do you cope with this so called tactic breaking?

Not really much of a purist myself either, but I do avoid using any third party aids such as scouting or mid-save editing utilities, unless it's for one of my experimental saves. This isn't one of those though.

As for the AI cracking tactics, to put it bluntly, we're years away from an AI in a game like this, that's as clever as that. There are lot's of other factors to consider though. The AI will try to win games. It would be a pretty poor game if it didn't. Bear in mind though, that the AI is working from the pre-programmed variables which are dictated mostly by the computer controlled manager's preferences tactically. As you get familiar with certain managers, it can sometimes be possible to predict some of the actions they will take, both tactically and in the media side of the game.

Also important to be mindful of, is the weather conditions and to some degree, the pitch size. In January you're not going to be playing on the best surfaces, especially at the level you're playing. If it's wet and raining, pitches can become boggy in the middle or around the goals. When you see this, it can be better to use the flanks and have more direct passing. The pretty stuff won't always work in these conditions.

If it's icy, playing through the middle is often more beneficial, as is getting the ball forward quickly to forwards and taking pot shots at the keeper. Crossing may also be better if kept low and drilled to the near post, rather than floated.

Other factors will include things such as your improved reputation. If you've been on a good run and are sitting high in the league, teams beneath you, even those with higher club reputations, may be more cautious in how they play against you. They'll likely sit men behind the ball, close down more, or simply defend and look to counter-attack. These teams can be harder to break down and the the better your team does, the more times you'll start to face teams preferring to play this way. Often, it's a case of being patient and controlling the game and possession, looking to draw them out and then hit them when they eventually open up. Also, you can look at trying to win free-kicks and corners, to punish them from set-plays.

Effectively though, January can be one of the more difficult periods when you're managing a lower league team that's doing well or over-achieving. Pitches and playing conditions are poorer, so ideally you'd want to be playing a longer or more direct game. However, teams will also be defending more, so you might want to be playing a shorter and more controlled game, which isn't really suited to poor pitch conditions. Very tricky to get the balance right therefore.

Observation is never more important than at such a time as this. Keep an eye on your player morale. A good team doesn't suddenly turn bad overnight. The AI doesn't crack your tactics and they don't suddenly stop working for no reason. If the team has played well, then sympathise with them, be more coaxing. If they're downright awful, or players have been below acceptable ratings (I always feel anything below 6), then be critical. Don't be too harsh too soon though, as this can turn players against you. Everything in moderation.

Finally, stick with it tactically. Use the opposition instructions to take advantage of weak opposing players and be observant during matches. Everything you do really can make a big difference. That's the biggest advantage we have over the AI. It can only do a certain amount of things. We have much more at our disposal.

[heathxxx]

As a follow up to my mention of corner settings in post #42, I'm pleased to say that the settings are working fairly well at the moment.

My centre-back Abdou Sall, who's instructed to attack the far post, with the corners aimed there, has scored 4 goals in 12 appearances and always looks dangerous. I'm happy enough with those figures, because every time we have a corner, so long as the taker's aim is in the right place, there's always a good opportunity at goal. I think I've lost count of the number of times those chances have hit the woodwork, or been cleared off the line though

[Gazza56]

Tried a new type of search for players that worked very successfully. At the beginning of pre-season i went to all the Premiership and Championship teams and looked to see which players they released on a free transfer. I managed to pick up Philliskirk and Wood from Chelsea, Andrea Zola from West Ham and 3 really good 17 year olds from Man City.

The main thing about this for small clubs like mine (Woking) is that these guys have estimated values of £200k plus the minute they sign, and they sign pretty cheap too (using Heath's haggling)

So, not only do they bring quality to your team, if you decide to cash in and sell, it could bring very good income for the club

[phnompenhandy]

Pleasingly, have just beaten Alfreton away 7-0 to record our 11th straight league victory.

The key to this win for me, was observation.

Poor weather conditions and a soggy pitch. A pair of slow centre-backs with poor composure and bravery, plus a beaming grin from myself as I formulate my plans!

So, with the opposition instructions I singled them both out for closing down and hard tackling. Then, a few moments into the game, I switched from my "control" starting strategy to "attack", plus I used the shouts "get the ball forward", "pump the ball into the box" and "hassle opponents". Essentially, shouts to play more of a long-ball game, into areas where we could keep those weak-links under pressure, added to my players hunting down their opponents like a pack of wild dogs

Sure enough, my forwards started pressuring the two dodgy centre-backs and forcing errors. My wingers and full backs also increased the pressure by firing good long crosses into the box. At half-time, we were 5-0 up and the opposing players I'd pinpointed for their weakness, were having a torrid time.

... The moral of the story then? Always look for weakness in your opponents. This is not a super tactic I'm using. Just a simple attacking 4-4-2 using the right attributes in the right roles, plus a careful eye on any weakness in opponents that can be seized upon - and the weather conditions.

I'd like to add some tips, if I may. I'm one of those micro-managers who prepare thoroughly for every match. I'm managing in level 9 at the moment, and storming the league.

I'm more 'Don Revie' than 'Brian Clough' in that I 'prepare a dossier' on every opposition player. I'm meticulous in setting up OIs and it really pays dividends. In addition, i keep the oppo motivation widget open in the match screen and respond when red lines come up. Given that at lower league level players typically have low mental attributes, and thus frail mental states, I suspect that this gives the lower league manager a crucial edge over his opponents.

I lure plenty of oppo players into getting red cards, whereas I get very few. When they've been booked, or 'in danger of a booking', I tight mark and hard tackle. Same as soon as they get nervous. As I say, at this level it takes the slightest setback for the player to lose it. Grab one early goal and the oppo defence are very vulnerable.

Are the oppo DCs slow and lumbering? Aim through balls down the middle between them for your nippy striker to run onto. Either he'll get there for a one-on-one with the keeper or he'll be tugged back, getting a DC a card. Is a full-back the weak link? Aim long balls down that flank. I'd say the majority of CCCs I get are from defensive howlers, but I MAKE the defences crumble with the pressure I put on them by analysing their attributes before and during a match. Admittedly my crappy strikers blow most of those chances, but they're sure to convert at least one.

Conversely, I concede very few because I don't make the mistakes my oppo AI managers make. I check the oppo forwards' attributes. I prefer to play a high D-line and keep the ball in the oppo half, but if they have quick forwards, I'll play a deep D-line with tight marking on the forwards. I always try to select one quicker defenders to cover for the slower stopper. The oppo forwards are also pushed onto their weaker feet. Other than though lapses in concentration, the oppo will rarely break though.

By keeping the oppo motivation widget and my team's ratings widget (mainly to monitor condition) alive (as well as assman's advice), I use probably 10-20 shouts in a typical match. This in addition to the pre-match prep, is pretty obsessive, but it's a joy to SEE the results. You can visibly see in the 3D screen the oppo wilting as your instructions kick in, and your own players growing in confidence. You SEE the results of your instructions and shout; you FEEL like a real manager, rather than one of those numpties to bomb through a season a night then complain about the 'cheating AI'.

As I said, I suspect that because players are more mentally frail at non-league level than their professional counterparts, this approach is far more effective in the lower leagues, and makes a considerable difference to the effectiveness of your management.

[heathxxx]

Tried a new type of search for players that worked very successfully. At the beginning of pre-season i went to all the Premiership and Championship teams and looked to see which players they released on a free transfer. I managed to pick up Philliskirk and Wood from Chelsea, Andrea Zola from West Ham and 3 really good 17 year olds from Man City.

The main thing about this for small clubs like mine (Woking) is that these guys have estimated values of £200k plus the minute they sign, and they sign pretty cheap too (using Heath's haggling)

So, not only do they bring quality to your team, if you decide to cash in and sell, it could bring very good income for the club

This is indeed a very good way to find players, not only in England, but any country. I've just snapped up three players who were released around November/December 2010 from MLS clubs in the USA.

[heathxxx]

I'd like to add some tips, if I may...

You may indeed

All very good tips and somewhat similar to the way I look at things. You genuinely can make a big difference as the manager in this game, if you use all the tools at your disposal. Those provided within the game, plus those your own faculties provide!

I rarely fly through a season myself. Well over a week since I started this thread, I'm only up to the 1st December in my save. Add to that the quantity of friendly matches I've played, on top of the competitive games, so I can improve my finances, whilst also taking a closer look at trial and reserve players... yes, I take a while to play a season.

The net result to that time though, is that my team is still unbeaten, including my last match which was a 3-2 home victory over Crew Alexandria in the FA Cup 2nd Round. We were 2-0 down at half-time (we were actually 1-0 down in under 30 seconds!!) and I certainly had some work to do to turn things around. The choices I made, made the difference to the end result though.

I took a much harder line with my half-time team talk, but also praised one or two players who were playing well. I also decided to be more patient. I'd disregarded some of the advice by scouts and coaches pre-match and was being punished for it. They had advised that Crewe didn't like facing slow tempo, narrower, high defensive line, or possession based football generally. So that's what I did with the shouts. We dominated the second-half and completely outplayed them. My more attacking approach in the first-half simply hadn't worked.

I also paid more attention to detail looking at the weak points of their player attributes, using the OI's to pinpoint areas we could exploit.

All these things certainly add up to the difference between winning and losing and make the game a much richer experience. Had I comfortably beaten this opponent, two divisions higher than my own team, it would just have been another win. Having had to do something, make changes and pay attention myself, the win was ever so much more rewarding.

[Gazza56]

Heath........i am trying to tutor a 19 year old, but i dont seem to be able too! am told the player is too young to be tutored. Have i missed something in the new game, or is there a glitch?