Will Womens Leagues/Womens World Cup Ever Make it into FM?

[Vic Taylor]

But do they have Resverve teams, Under 18's, Under 16's, youth academies etc ? No most don't and the amount of women that play football doesn't even compare to the men, so I was right, the database size would be small...I didn't mention how many leagues there would be.

Yes, actually most do have reserves and youth teams, going all the way down to U10s. You should really get your facts right before saying these things.

[ronaldo_rooney]

Yes, actually most do have reserves and youth teams, going all the way down to U10s. You should really get your facts right before saying these things.

The top teams maybe.

Quote from FA Website:

"There has been an increase in the number of players, clubs, leagues and competitions since 1993; the number of players has increased from 10,400 to over 150,000 today.

Sport England’s Active People survey in 2008 highlighted that 260,000 women and 1.1 million girls play some form of football in England."

There are more men/boys in London that play football than there are women that play in England.

[Vic Taylor]

And you very well left out what follows that quote:

"There are 26 million females playing across the world, of which 4.1 million are playing affiliated football"

I wouldn't call 4.1 million a small database personally.

And, even if we're just talking about locally, there are over 180 women's clubs that exist in England and Wales. That would set up a pretty nice league system even without the rest of the world's female leagues.

[BenArsenal]

Do not some Football League clubs finance their womans sides? Might they not be financially linked then in game?

So?

As an Arsenal supporter I know about Arsenal Ladies. Our men's team kit man (Vic Akers) was their manager. But that's as far as the connection goes. They have their own league, own players, own competitions, own schedule, etc etc etc. They don't even play at the Emirates (they play at Boreham Wood, or groundshare sometimes with Barnet's ground). They have very little, if any, interaction with the men's team.

I stand by my argument that the men's and ladies' game share very little in common, and putting it in one single game would be a massive waste of resources for what would be a very small market.

[ronaldo_rooney]

Double post...deleted..

[ronaldo_rooney]

And you very well left out what follows that quote:

"There are 26 million females playing across the world, of which 4.1 million are playing affiliated football"

I wouldn't call 4.1 million a small database personally.

And, even if we're just talking about locally, there are over 180 women's clubs that exist in England and Wales. That would set up a pretty nice league system even without the rest of the world's female leagues.

"Affiliated football" includes the local Under 6's girls sunday 5 a side team and things like that, so hardly worth mentioning.

I'm not here to argue but surely you know that the number of men playing football far, far excedes the womens game. If you were to load all the FA womens teams, then yes you would have enough players for a game but the standard would be so low you might aswell include mens sunday leagues into the current FM and have a database of 400,000,000 worldwide.

The numbers you are talking about are the overall number of women that 'play' football, not proper football 'players'.

[Vic Taylor]

"Affiliated football" includes the local Under 6's girls sunday 5 a side team and things like that, so hardly worth mentioning.

I'm not here to argue but surely you know that the number of men playing football far, far excedes the womens game. If you were to load all the FA womens teams, then yes you would have enough players for a game but the standard would be so low you might aswell include mens sunday leagues into the current FM and have a database of 400,000,000 worldwide.

The numbers you are talking about are the overall number of women that 'play' football, not proper football 'players'.

That was the point you disputed at the start and the one I knew you were wrong on. I'm glad we now agree.

There are 180 teams in England and Wales, each of them with full first team, reserves, and youth squads. That could easily make a league system and a game.

[ronaldo_rooney]

The point I was making is there are not enough women who play proper/professional football to make a decent database and that is still true. Alot of countries don't even have womens leagues.

[SmurfDude]

It would be an awful lot of extra research just to appease a small minority of fans who want to manage a women's team. Not to mention many of those 26 million women playing football across the world would have attributes of 1-2 because the quality when compared to men would be terribly poor. I bet if they made a woman-only version of FM that it would end up in the bargain bin after a few weeks. Not through lack of quality, but lack of interest. It just seems totally pointless and a waste of resources

[Vic Taylor]

The point I was making is there are not enough women who play proper/professional football to make a decent database and that is still true. Alot of countries don't even have womens leagues.

While not even counting the USA, who have a huge set-up for women's football, most of the major countries in the world have some form of the women's game. The database got from all this would be a decent size and I don't know how you can't see that.

[the blue ferret]

If it did happen, you'd have to make the stats out of 10 instead of 20 and a CA and PA would need be changed so a -10 PA player would equate to 30-50 PA in game.

is this sexist?

[Vic Taylor]

If it did happen, you'd have to make the stats out of 10 instead of 20 and a CA and PA would need be changed so a -10 PA player would equate to 30-50 PA in game.

is this sexist?

Yes, as is much of the talk in here about men being automatically better at football than women merely because they're men.

[GillsMan]

Yes, as is much of the talk in here about men being automatically better at football than women merely because they're men.

It's not "merely" because they are men though. I don't think the skill gap is as great as many people think, but the pace of the women's game is ex-cruc-iatingly slow. Physically, there is no comparison.

[BC_Tiger]

football womanager

[Puevlo]

I'm going to stick my reputation on the line and say there will be a female Football Manager by 2013.

[dazbowski]

Please god, just NO!

[Vic Taylor]

It's not "merely" because they are men though. I don't think the skill gap is as great as many people think, but the pace of the women's game is ex-cruc-iatingly slow. Physically, there is no comparison.

Lots of people in this thread seem to be saying that men are better at football than women merely because they're men. Sorry if I've misunderstood anyone, but that's what I've read into the comments made.

Just because a game of football is slower (I don't actually agree, but that's not the point here ) doesn't mean it's any less good than a fast paced game. At the end of the day it's all a matter of taste.

[AndyRich]

Answering the question... They would need to spend a lot of money to find female researchers from different countries to get information on all the women's teams and leagues out there. And seeing as woman's football is at the moment a very niche market, its not really worth the money. However, competitions like the women's world cup and the women's F.A cup are gaining in popularity and if they become a more present force in the football market then it may happen, although this would be very far down the line

[grep]

Writing in this thread it is like running on floating tree trunks

[Lankylars]

SI is a business. Businesses make decisions to make money. The return on investment for adding women's leagues would be minimal, if even positive at all. Therefore, SI will not add women's leagues. The end.

[dazbowski]

Lots of people in this thread seem to be saying that men are better at football than women merely because they're men. Sorry if I've misunderstood anyone, but that's what I've read into the comments made.

Just because a game of football is slower (I don't actually agree, but that's not the point here ) doesn't mean it's any less good than a fast paced game. At the end of the day it's all a matter of taste.

At the highest level in both games are you seriously trying to say there is any comparison in standard?

[Vic Taylor]

At the highest level in both games are you seriously trying to say there is any comparison in standard?

Even though that wasn't what I was saying, I'll bite. Why not?

[dazbowski]

Even though that wasn't what I was saying, I'll bite. Why not?

I watched some of the last womens world cup and it was not good, the standard of the VERY top players was no better than lower level male counterparts, i'd go so far as to say there is no sport i can think of were women are anywhere near the standard of men.

[respo]

imagine news on that game

xy manager make baby to striker eva smith

eva smith will be out of pitch at least 9 months

[Vic Taylor]

I watched some of the last womens world cup and it was not good, the standard of the VERY top players was no better than lower level male counterparts,

Meh, it's all about opinion I guess. I've seen some pretty rubbish male teams as well. The female teams I know could wipe the floor with them.

i'd go so far as to say there is no sport i can think of were women are anywhere near the standard of men

Then you're obviously not thinking hard enough.

[dazbowski]

Meh, it's all about opinion I guess. I've seen some pretty rubbish male teams as well. The female teams I know could wipe the floor with them.

Then you're obviously not thinking hard enough.

It is about opinions but i know rubbish teams (i'm a Tranmere supporter!) and i doubt any womens team in the world would even give them a game.

[Vic Taylor]

It is about opinions but i know rubbish teams (i'm a Tranmere supporter!) and i doubt any womens team in the world would even give them a game.

I've never watched Tranmere in my life, but still I doubt that.

Not that this discussion really matters, as SI aren't going to do this in the near future anyway.

[dazbowski]

I've never watched Tranmere in my life, but still I doubt that.

Not that this discussion really matters, as SI aren't going to do this in the near future anyway.

Fair point!

[BenArsenal]

I watched some of the last womens world cup and it was not good, the standard of the VERY top players was no better than lower level male counterparts, i'd go so far as to say there is no sport i can think of were women are anywhere near the standard of men.

Bit harsh. Gymnastics and synchronised swimming are usually women-dominated sports.

[hugo_rune]

I'd like to see it - I might even play it for the variety - but I'm not sure it can be justified from SI's point. If you had both men's and women's leagues loaded, it would be two parallel game worlds in practise. The only substantial difference would be that there would be vastly more detail in the men's database - and more fans, much more money, more media interest.

Personally I think if they can get community support to get a few women's leagues adequately researched, they should go for it - but that's a big caveat.

[dazbowski]

Bit harsh. Gymnastics and synchronised swimming are usually women-dominated sports.

You could well be right but neither are on my to watch list and am not convinced synchronised swimming is even a sport.

[dazbowski]

I'd like to see it - I might even play it for the variety - but I'm not sure it can be justified from SI's point. If you had both men's and women's leagues loaded, it would be two parallel game worlds in practise. The only substantial difference would be that there would be vastly more detail in the men's database - and more fans, much more money, more media interest.

Personally I think if they can get community support to get a few women's leagues adequately researched, they should go for it - but that's a big caveat.

But it would be the excact same game with womens names, what's the point?

[Vic Taylor]

But it would be the excact same game with womens names, what's the point?

That's a terribly poor argument. Going by that what's the point of adding any more leagues to the current game at all?

[Shannon USSF]

At the highest level in both games are you seriously trying to say there is any comparison in standard?

In the USA, it is pretty interesting at college level. What do I mean? I have been a female collegiate soccer player (i do call it football, but that's another topic). In head-to-head, any of my teammates can take on the boys and frankly, many men's teams won't let us play each other due to injury concerns. And not how you think.

Girls/Women's soccer has a tendency to be dirtier and nastier at times than men's. That's according to several National referees I know who work both men's and women's games from college to professional. Yes, we tend to have more buildup in play here which is what helps it "seem" slower. But don't make the argument that just because we are girls that we can't hack it.

[dazbowski]

In the USA, it is pretty interesting at college level. What do I mean? I have been a female collegiate soccer player (i do call it football, but that's another topic). In head-to-head, any of my teammates can take on the boys and frankly, many men's teams won't let us play each other due to injury concerns. And not how you think.

Girls/Women's soccer has a tendency to be dirtier and nastier at times than men's. That's according to several National referees I know who work both men's and women's games from college to professional. Yes, we tend to have more buildup in play here which is what helps it "seem" slower. But don't make the argument that just because we are girls that we can't hack it.

I'm not saying you can't hack it i'm saying that in my admittedly limited experience of womens football that no team i've ever seen would come close to beating a male professional team.

[BenArsenal]

You could well be right but neither are on my to watch list and am not convinced synchronised swimming is even a sport.

You should watch gymnastics. Well worth your time. :wink:

[Shannon USSF]

Well, I do know it happens. I am not sure about putting women's football into the game, but I doubt highly that even some professional teams in the lower leagues over there can actually dominate, let alone beat, some teams over here.

[dazbowski]

That's a terribly poor argument. Going by that what's the point of adding any more leagues to the current game at all?

So people in that country can play as their team. And that the database can be increased to include all male players the play the game. I genuinely think it would sell less than 1% of the sales FM does.

[dazbowski]

Well, I do know it happens. I am not sure about putting women's football into the game, but I doubt highly that even some professional teams in the lower leagues over there can actually dominate, let alone beat, some teams over here.

You could be right as i don't know what the standard of college football is like over there, but i doubt a an american womens team would beat a male professional team!

[dazbowski]

You should watch gymnastics. Well worth your time. :wink:

I do occasionally watch it for 2-3 minutes!

[Vic Taylor]

So people in that country can play as their team. And that the database can be increased to include all male players the play the game. I genuinely think it would sell less than 1% of the sales FM does.

Yes, but that same argument can be put forwards for female players of them game. Using your argument, playing in any country in the world is just the same as any other country, which is wrong.

[Vic Taylor]

I do occasionally watch it for 2-3 minutes!

That time's really nothing to boast about.

[dazbowski]

Yes, but that same argument can be put forwards for female players of them game. Using your argument, playing in any country in the world is just the same as any other country, which is wrong.

Agreed but adding extra leagues is just polishing an already established game, padding it up if you will. A whole new games of womens leagueswould not appeal to many if any.

[Lord Rowell]

This topic has come up before, and it will come up again. A common theme, everytime, among posts about this issue, is the defensiveness of many posters here against women's leagues being included.

Arguments to justify this defensiveness tend to include:

1. Women's football is rubbish

Well, some may think that, others differ. I might think the Blue Square North and feeder leagues are rubbish, but I don't go on and on about such an opinion with the objective of preventing research and development of those leagues in the game

2. There's no profit in it for SI

Y'know, when a poster raises the issue of having women's leagues in the game, they're putting it forward as an idea. What usually happens with sensible discussions about new ideas is that those who are interested express interest, propose ways forward, others highlight problems and issues, solutions are developed and the whole thing is constructive. Instead, what seems to happen here is that people take it on themselves to decide what is in SI's business interests. What??? How many of you folk work for SI, have shares in SI / Sega etc? Few to none of you. This argument should not be used by people on this forum to kill the idea, that decision is down to SI. SI, for that matter, might be able to make better informed decisions if people didn't butt in and derail a discussion which, if allowed to develop properly, might show there is more interest than appears to be the case.

3. Getting researchers would be too difficult

Have SI tried? Either direct or, indirectly, by ensuring that when this topic does come up, its moderated in a fashion that enables people to discuss and come together, as opposed to being jumped on the second they suggest ideas. I imagine the problems with researching men's clubs at lower levels were similar, and leagues in some other countries. SI got through that and made it work. You always have to start somewhere. For what its worth, I actually think a starting point may not be the UK, but the USA, Germany, the Scandinavian countries, where women's football has more support and hence more potential researchers. Not everything has to start in the UK.

I actually think all 3 of the arguments above don't stand up to scrutiny and are simply posted as a mask for sexist behaviour on these forums. I think its sad. I also think SI and the moderation team should be doing a lot more about this. SI have responsibilities to all their stakeholders and in this respect they are abrogating them. Disappointing.

[Vic Taylor]

Agreed but adding extra leagues is just polishing an already established game, padding it up if you will. A whole new games of womens leagueswould not appeal to many if any.

As the women's teams to interact with their male counterparts (whoever said they don't above, I've actually looked into it and a great many of the male teams are making extra funds available to their female teams, as well as sharing staff) I think the best way to put female teams into the game would be to treat them like the reserves and U18s of the main teams are treated now. So it wouldn't be whole new game from my pov.

[Vic Taylor]

2. There's no profit in it for SI.

As the first person in this thread who brought up this point, I stated it as something that I remember someone employed by SI saying. Iirc the same goes for the problem of researchers.

Though I agree with your point that the casual sexism shown in this thread is disgusting. The mods did delete two posts because of it.

[Lord Rowell]

^^^ @ Vic Taylor

If SI say it, that's one thing. When other say it, its a different matter. People banging on about "no profit in it for SI" predates this particular thread and I suspect their motives are not based on any comment, past or present, that SI staff & mods mights have made.

Glad to hear some posts have been deleted but I still think SI need to do a lot more. In all honesty, if people aren't going to be constructive, or are going to troll, they need to be told to buzz off out of a thread who's subject is about development of the game. If all development ideas were trolled in this fashion then little to nothing would ever develop with the game we love

[Vic Taylor]

^^^ @ Vic Taylor

If SI say it, that's one thing. When other say it, its a different matter. People banging on about "no profit in it for SI" predates this particular thread and I suspect their motives are not based on any comment, past or present, that SI staff & mods mights have made.

I did think that when I made my first post I put in that SI had said this, but reading it back I can see how it could be seen as just me putting my own opinion across as fact. I can't link to the post where someone from SI commented on this, but I'm sure I remember that they did.

Glad to hear some posts have been deleted but I still think SI need to do a lot more. In all honesty' date=' if people aren't going to be constructive, or are going to troll, they need to be told to buzz off out of a thread who's subject is about development of the game. If all development ideas were trolled in this fashion then little to nothing would ever develop with the game we love [/quote']

to this.

[bigdanio]

Most women I know that are into football are into football, not women's football.

They are different sports. Players can not move from one to the other. It would be a different game 'world' to the one we play now.

[BenArsenal]

Let me just put it out there, my final opinion.

I would consider buying a women's FM IF it was a standalone game, and not involved with the standard FM.

I don't want the database to be messed up due to players not being able to go across and etc.

And I do actually believe a standalone women's FM game will actually garner some interest. It is indeed growing in popularity, and more than a few countries have women's leagues now (There is a Women's A-League in Australia, for example).