FM Britian email this morning (15/09/10)

[BenMRowe]

I still don't get this whole concept of charging, or the need to make money. Surely you do it for love of the game, so to speak? If you don't have the time to do it because you need to put the proverbial food on the table, don't do it. Let it die. Move on. Work should take precedence, rather than trying to make a buck out of something which, by rights, is not yours to make a buck out of.

And please explain your website costs because I feel you must have been royally robbed if you needed to make such a sum of money to cover them! I'll host your website for that much...

There are many things I love doing, but don't have the time or money to do because of work and other commitments.

If I found a way of getting some money in to do these things, though, I'd jump at the chance. Anyone would be a liar if they say they'd do otherwise.

For instance, I love skiing, but can't afford to go often, and don't have the time to go often.

If, however, my ability was such that others would pay me to teach them to ski, and there were enough people out there willing to do so, I'd jump at the chance. So, if I could cut down my work hours to 4 days a week, and spend the extra time skiing, and teaching others to ski, and wouldn't lose out financially, I would definitely do so.

There's no problem at all with FMB's business model - they just can't hold themselves out as a fansite if they decide to pursue it.

[Kazza]

That's an entirely invalid point though, as the costs involved in publishing a book and publishing an e-book are like comparing chalk with cheese.

The point i was making was that there has been content that carried a charge. So in that respect there are alike. As you say differing methods and differing means of production but both carried a price?

And yes I know that producing hard copy will always cost. Maybe I did not make it clear that this was not a first re payment for guides.

Aplogies for that

K

[higgins]

That's an extremely disengenuous view. wwfan is saying that in order to have the time to research and write a guide, he'd lose income, and that if anybody wanted him write a guide, they'd have to replace the income he'd lose in order to do it. He's not being greedy, he's being realistic. Would you go part-time to do something for nothing?

No, but I thought we were talking about a passion not a way to generate income.

Did you say greedy?

Greedy to say the least.

By the way, I often do things for nothing, if they give me some pleasure.

[crouchaldinho]

I think FMB has a passion for money...

look at this blog from one of the leading FMB staff:

http://notaproblog.com/secret-making-money-online-revealed/

Who do they think they are kidding?

Wow, I thought that was a joke at first. Then I scrolled down to find it actually is someone from FM Britain's site!

[Sunbao]

Server costs etc lol fm-britain is hosted in the us by the planet really cheap server host....

[crouchaldinho]

I still don't get this whole concept of charging, or the need to make money. Surely you do it for love of the game, so to speak? If you don't have the time to do it because you need to put the proverbial food on the table, don't do it. Let it die. Move on. Work should take precedence, rather than trying to make a buck out of something which, by rights, is not yours to make a buck out of.

I'm with The Governor on this.

[JimmyWangYang]

That's an extremely disengenuous view. wwfan is saying that in order to have the time to research and write a guide, he'd lose income, and that if anybody wanted him write a guide, they'd have to replace the income he'd lose in order to do it. He's not being greedy, he's being realistic. Would you go part-time to do something for nothing?

Of course, there is no way of knowing if wwfan is telling the truth. If I had found myself in the same mess he is in, then I probably would have come up with the same story…

FMB has ONE goal, and that is to make money on FM gamers around the world. To have one guide for all to read, and the world be dependent on this guide. Their business model tells them it is perfectly OK to lie, as long as the means justifies the end. If hiding the truth will accomplish the goals of FMB, then so be it, their bank account will be very happy for them. If their members get invited to become beta testers, and these perks will help sell their product, then FMB is a happy operation.

[crouchaldinho]

Interesting discussion continuing on the FM Britain forums here - http://forums.fm-britain.co.uk/index.php?topic=11616.msg187397;boardseen#new

It actually seems that FM Britain were intending to charge for next year's edition of TT&F. A quotation from that thread suggests the following:

TT&F11 will be priced at 9.95 GBP while CPW10 (and the updated version when it comes out) will still remain at 7.95 GBP

[Kazza]

Of course, there is no way of knowing if wwfan is telling the truth. If I had found myself in the same mess he is in, then I probably would have come up with the same story…

FMB has ONE goal, and that is to make money on FM gamers around the world. To have one guide for all to read, and the world be dependent on this guide. Their business model tells them it is perfectly OK to lie, as long as the means justifies the end. If hiding the truth will accomplish the goals of FMB, then so be it, their bank account will be very happy for them. If their members get invited to become beta testers, and these perks will help sell their product, then FMB is a happy operation.

So your unfounded accusations that wwfan may not be telling the truth and the world dominance view is backed up with what? 1 charged product and the potential of another charged product! Starting to question whether people are telling the truth or lies is dangerous territory. Not sure what or why you are coming from that angle. It's these kind of posts that I was referring to in my posts - negative, unhelpful and speculaltive.

They really do not help this debate.

K

[JimmyWangYang]

Quote from Wonderkid over there that sums up this debacle: "You've made £15,000 out of writing a book about a game, you should be laughing not moaning about not being allowed to BETA test or submit feedback to SI."

If SI had any guts they'd make FMD transfer that money back to them, or have them face legal action. The money could then be donated back out to sites that are actual fansites, or to a charity. It would be a win-win for both sides: SI would set an example so that hopefully they would never have to bother with scams like this ever again. FMD would be devoid of buying extra beer & snacks, and hopefully remove some of that negative karma.

[JimmyWangYang]

Starting to question whether people are telling the truth or lies is dangerous territory. Not sure what or why you are coming from that angle.

Questioning is perfectly normal considering how the email from FMD was sent out, and the ludicrous claim that they need to charge for guides in order to cover website costs. wwfan may not have contributed to those two fabrications in particular, but you're only as good as the company you keep.

[Sheffield Sunday]

Being offered money for something you love to do in your free time is usually too go to be true. However, there is the odd exception. Once it got to that stage, alarm bells would have rung in my head.

What was done was completely unethical. If you are in fan community for anything other than the love of it then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

[charlo116]

personally if i was a part of the team at FMB I would be asking Millie to send another e-mail apologising for the tone of the first e-mail and apolgising to SI for insulting with no justification. The worst part is he's ended the e-mail with 'The FM-Britain Staff' which has caused a large loss of repect for the website in general rather than just the one person who wrote such garbage. He doesn't appear to be sorry for it judging by his posts on the FMB forums but is defending it instead.

[afced7]

i believe we can all agree on this things and call them facts

Oh hi Rafa

[Makollig Jezvahted]

Now imagine you write a guide for a game in your free time.

Selling that guide generates $ 2000 a month (!)

source: http://notaproblog.com/about/

I currently manage two video game-related fan sites: FM-Britain and Gameworld One. Very targeted and covering only one specific game each, they are both at the very top of their respective niches as trusted resources. They draw a combined 80,000+ unique visitors monthly, have a forum membership community of 12,000+ and bring in an average income of $2000 per month. (off the sales of our premium strategy guides)

You have another guide in the pipeline that will sell probably even more copies.

Guys at least be honest: you were trying to get full time jobs out of this business and now found yourself in a real mess due to losing the beta team knowlegde needed to finalise the book before the release of FM11.

You were not looking after the 'community' as you claim in your email.

You were looking after your wallets.

In light of this, the email you have sent is really, really crossing the line...

I have no problem with people making money

I do have a problem with the ethics of some people making a lot of easy money.

[afced7]

source: http://notaproblog.com/about/

You look at that site, and its obvious why this whole mess has occured. All the other major figures have commented, millie, wwfan, the next diaby(on fm britain), but no word from Jordan Cooper, who has a self confessed 'life long love of building businesses from the ground up', who incidentally seems to have produced less content than the other guys. Anybody having a go at millie or wwfan fan for 'throwing their toys out of the pram' should really look at the root of the problem.

[crouchaldinho]

Oh hi Rafa

Beat me to it!

[crouchaldinho]

You look at that site, and its obvious why this whole mess has occured. All the other major figures have commented, millie, wwfan, the next diaby(on fm britain), but no word from Jordan Cooper, who has a self confessed 'life long love of building businesses from the ground up', who incidentally seems to have produced less content than the other guys. Anybody having a go at millie or wwfan fan for 'throwing their toys out of the pram' should really look at the root of the problem.

I don’t have a resume. I don’t have a business degree. I don’t even have a high school diploma. My education comes from the school of hard knocks, bootstrapping street sense and real-world business savvy that no M.B.A. hotshot can shake a stick at.

Well, there we go then.

[afced7]

Yes pretty much

Through my experience turning my passions into money-making endeavors

Reminds me of what happened to FM Britain.

[Glyn]

No, but I thought we were talking about a passion not a way to generate income.

Did you say greedy?

Greedy to say the least.

By the way, I often do things for nothing, if they give me some pleasure.

Does your pleasure feed your family or pay the mortgage?

[Glyn]

If SI had any guts they'd make FMD transfer that money back to them, or have them face legal action. The money could then be donated back out to sites that are actual fansites, or to a charity. It would be a win-win for both sides: SI would set an example so that hopefully they would never have to bother with scams like this ever again. FMD would be devoid of buying extra beer & snacks, and hopefully remove some of that negative karma.

That's a nice thought, but where'e the money to pay for the lawyers going to come from?

[Glyn]

wwfan may not have contributed to those two fabrications in particular, but you're only as good as the company you keep.

Well thanks very much for that glowing testimonial.

[The Governor]

Kind of kicks the whole 'covering costs' nonsense into touch, as far as I am concerned. It makes a hiuge mockery of millie et al to trumpet on along those lines. If one man in the band sees it is money-making, the whole band are tarnished with the same brush. They, I am sure, will have been part of the business model. If not, more the fool them.

[afced7]

what is all this about? don't get it? i smell major laugh and look forward to hear it.

Basically Rafael Benitez went on a rant about Alex Ferguson, stating various 'facts'.

[Sheffield Sunday]

source: http://notaproblog.com/about/

Well that website speaks volumes - trying to sell his expertise in marketing and making money - from yes you've guessed it - the very fact that he was able to do those things from FMB. Which in itself was actually riding on the coat tails of SI. Brilliant! You couldn;t make it up.

[crouchaldinho]

Quote Originally Posted by afced7 View Post

Oh hi Rafa

what is all this about? don't get it? i smell major laugh and look forward to hear it.

Surely you've heard of Rafa's famous 'facts' press conference?

[JimmyWangYang]

Does your pleasure feed your family or pay the mortgage?

Enough please. No sane man can defend these hoodlums, especially considering how they let this play out. You're sounding like someone who bought a lot of stock in the FMB company, and now you're watching your investment go down the drain.

[afced7]

hoodlums

I really suggest you go away and find out what that word means first.

[JimmyWangYang]

I really suggest you go away and find out what that word means first.

Well of course it can be interpreted to have many meanings, but to me it will always mean "criminal".

[afced7]

Well of course it can be interpreted to have many meanings, but to me it will always mean "criminal".

It means violent or aggressive criminal. I must have missed that part of their business model.

[Jack Rudd]

Well of course it can be interpreted to have many meanings, but to me it will always mean "criminal".

Yes, but its connotations are those of a violent criminal. Whatever else you may claim about FM Britain, they quite clearly haven't been violent.

[JimmyWangYang]

Let's not split hairs... we both agree they are criminals.

[Sheffield Sunday]

Spiderman just told me: My litigation sense is tingling.

[crouchaldinho]

no i haven't. football is not played just on the island, you know,

Are you sure?

[afced7]

Let's not split hairs... we both agree they are criminals.

Well, they haven't broken any laws, I don't agree with what they have done, but I don't think they are criminals. But if you do, that's fine.

[voidex]

Actually, losing Millie and wwfan's insight into the game is quite a huge loss to the community. There really isn't anyone who can fill that gap.

Really? For a starter, I enjoyed SFaser's input. CM/FM series has been great throughout the decade because of the community. Charging for an unofficial guide just feels so wrong.

[higgins]

Does your pleasure feed your family or pay the mortgage?

Even if I appreciated your attempt to be sarcastic, epic failure by the way, I don't think wwfan's problem is to put the food on the table, or that charging for TTF '11 could eventually address that issue, otherwise it would be a real drama.

As someone said here, if you don't want/can't produce content for the game, just move on, someone else will come.

I simply think that some people thought that writing about FM could have become a job, personally I don't think so.

[Miles Jacobson]

Can you please all stop with any personal insults, or else this thread will be closed, and those doing the insulting will get infractions/bans.

[JordanC]

All the other major figures have commented, millie, wwfan, the next diaby(on fm britain), but no word from Jordan Cooper, who has a self confessed 'life long love of building businesses from the ground up', who incidentally seems to have produced less content than the other guys. Anybody having a go at millie or wwfan fan for 'throwing their toys out of the pram' should really look at the root of the problem.

That's because I feel no reason to debate about the fundamental tenets of a capitalist economy.

Someone produces something that people need/want and the merits & success of their product lies solely in the amount of people that buy it.

If no one buys it, it stops getting produced.

Sports Interactive produce a game that people want and the success of their product lies solely in their customer community buying it.

If not enough of us bought FM every year, they go out of business and the game ceases to exist.

FM-Britain produce an independently written guide/manual/editorial that people may have wanted.

Our success depended solely in the community of Football Manager users choice, decide if it has value, and either purchase it or not.

No matter how much effort was put in to make it, we would have made little or no money had no one bought it.

From what I believe, Sports Interactive was never anointed by any governing body to produce Football Manager for the world to consume.

No business is for any of their products in a capitalist economy. Someone decides to create something, offers it to the world, and the world votes with their wallet.

Based on looking up their history, I believe this was exactly the case when two college students built a footie sim in their spare time from their bedrooms in Shropshire, England.

From: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/i_sportsi

"Football is our passion and we never started this thing for the money", the Collyers explained. "We didn't wake up one morning and think 'I know, let's make some money out of computer games', it was more like 'we like footie, so let's make a game that we'd want to play'. We're just continuing the same philosophy really."

And you know what? They sold it. Nearly 20 years later, it sells over 1 million copies and grosses $30+ million conservatively.

And I'm pretty happy they did sell it. Football Manager is the greatest single *game* (of any type) that I've ever played.

I just imagine how it would be now had they not sold it. They'd probably be working somewhere else at a job they hate for a company they don't care about. Why? Because at some point they'd have to stop developing the game and get "real" jobs in order for them to pay the rent. I'm happy they didn't have to do this. I'm happy that in 1992, people bought the game so they could be funded well enough to spend 40-60+ hours a week programming new features & perfecting old ones. I was happy to buy the game last year, I'll be happy to buy it again this year.

Would there be a similar football sim had CM never been created back in 1992? Almost surely. Probably not as good though.

And this story parallels almost every single business startup. You create to get paid to create. What survives is up to you as consumers.

The capitalist economy and the profit motive allows *anyone* to create something of value and, if wanted by the populace, allows them to support themselves to continue creating.

Without it, you wouldn't have automobiles. There are now hundreds of companies producing them, all derivative off of one man's idea in which he profited from.

Without it, you wouldn't have pharmaceuticals. There are now hundreds of companies making better medicines, all derivative of other mens' work years ago on the first aspirin caplet.

Without it, you You wouldn't have your Apple iPhone, an extremely efficient piece of technology - all derivative of other's mens' work years ago on the first wireless device.

Without it, you wouldn't have Football Manager, the greatest game ever made, all derivative of other mens' work on the programming language & operating system it works on.

[JimmyWangYang]

For the love of everything that is good and wholesome!

[tom_numbers]

But without charging for FMB guides, we'd still have FM guides. That's where your argument falls down JordanC

[Makollig Jezvahted]

The capitalist economy and the profit motive allows *anyone* to create something of value and, if wanted by the populace, allows them to support themselves to continue creating.

Is that the delusion you are using to justify that email?

Nothing wrong with wanting to cash in on the online buzz.

There is something wrong when your ethics (ref the email you sent) however

[voidex]

That's because I feel no reason to debate about the fundamental tenets of a capitalist economy.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#

[Sheffield Sunday]

The capitalist economy and the profit motive allows *anyone* to create something of value

Aslong as they pay they declare thier profits on said items then yes.

.

[afced7]

That's because I feel no reason to debate about the fundamental tenets of a capitalist economy.

we would have made little or no money

Well at least you've called a spade a spade here. CPW was a money making exercise. Fine, there's no problem with that, but don't try and dress the whole thing up as good, or indeed necessary for the community.

[meatloafster]

@JordanCooper

Oh come on. Let's stop with the cat and mouse game, please?

Noone is stopping you from making and selling unofficial guides. That was YOUR decision.

Either remain a fansite supplying free content and receive the perks of having beta testers on your team...

or become a business, to which noone has any objections, but of course relinquish your rights to having insider knowledge on the game.

FMB's choice was... neither? You just decided to not release any more guides.

For the life of me, I don't understand why.

If it's true that you do not use your insider knowledge to produce your guides, then you can keep making guides and sell it to as many people that would be willing to pay for it.

Noone is stopping you from doing so. Just know that by looking to earn a profit, you are no longer part of the community, but just another business out to earn money from paying customers.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[Sheffield Sunday]

That's because I feel no reason to debate about the fundamental tenets of a capitalist economy

...and then you go on to write 14 paragraphs all about what you were not going to debate, and how it applies in this instance lol.

[Arijit]

Absolutely.

It costs £7.95, but I agree, it wasn't very good, WoIfsong's team talk guide is an example of a much better, free motivation guide.

off-topic: but can anyone point me to this guide please.

[JordanC]

But without charging for FMB guides, we'd still have FM guides. That's where your argument falls down JordanC

Of course you would. It's possible that they may not be as good though.

Just like you'd have Championship Manager (which apparently isn't even coming out this year) as your footie sim, which for all intensive purposes of agreement here, is not even close to as good as FM.

Just like you'd have a cell phone, maybe even a pretty good one, but not an iPhone.

The reason why good things exist in the marketplace for you to buy is because multiple parties chose to create a similar product.

You vote with your wallet. The better one makes the most money. The lesser one doesn't and probably goes out of business.

Eventually the best rises to the top in the survival of the fittest.

Are there great FM guides already being produced in the community? Absolutely. They're even free.

The fact that 1000+ people, at their own will, chose to pay 7.95 GBP for another guide, they obviously found more value in doing that.

If no one bought it, that means we didn't produce a guide of enough value for people to pay for over all the free content at their disposal.

[crouchaldinho]

The latest TT&F or T&T or whatever it was called was a quality piece of work and I don't think many people will disagree with that. I wouldn't have paid for it however, but then I disagree with the whole premise of paying for content in this community.

Apparently, FM Britain were intending (at least, at some point) to charge for TT&F 2011. TT&F11 was apparently to be priced at 9.95 GBP. That really shocked me.

I'm surprised to see that FM Britain have suggested that they were actually aiming to target people who 'never visit the forums' and aren't part of the FM scene. And, they were using their 'beta testers' label in order to give themselves credibility, as shown here:

What I find difficult to swallow is the way that this has been promoted to new gamers and those who may not realise that the FM Britain work is based on opinion and isn't some kind of 'ultimate guide' or bible to FM10 (which they make it sound like). Referring to CPW, I would actually suggest that there are much better guides to team talks and so on available on the SI forums for free. Also, while T&T10 was a great read, there were also a number of inaccuracies and things that certainly aren't fact but instead opinion.

Leaving aside the question of the rights and wrongs of 'premium content' for a minute, I think this leaves another question as to whether FM Britain were essentially taking advantage of innocent and naive (and, very possibly, young) gamers who don't know any better and believe of all of the hype?