Regen Quality = attrocious

[Ched]

Not sure i agree with a lot of what has been written here - that's not to say i don't think there's a problem.

1/ I firmly believe the PA of regens is fine - we can't expect 5 regens with 170+ PA in every team (or even every big team) as it just isn't realistic. One 107+PA player every other year (or every third year) for the biggest clubs in the world is fine - scouts can be used to pick up the rest.

2/ World wide the number of high PA regens is almost perfect - i'm running around 10 nations, and have had 3 190+ PA, 5-8 180+, and around 25 170+ appear in europe alone - these numbers seem acceptable to me, as not all of these players come close to their PA. This is the average number, some years i've had as many as 6 190+ regens (of which my scouts found 5 - they deserved bonuses that year!) whilst other years there has been very little in the way of decent players. All things considered PA is not a problem.

3/ The most significant problem is CA. Wonderkids just don't exist. (well i've had 1 in 20years...) Regens tend to have too low aCA, or reach a passable CA too late - this means they don't become first team worthy until they are 25 - by which time they are more often than not "seeking a new challenge" - even though by this time i've loaned then all over the world. Similarly international teams get clogged up with slow 31 year olds as they still manage to have a higher CA than their younger replacements.

Bojans, messis and rooneys just cannot exist when CA develops so slowly - this IMO is the area that needs most work.

4/ The other problem is physical development. This is particularly relevant when looking at GKs. n my current save, there are 3 GKs IN THE WORLD with >15 agility. Ditto jumping. This creates an appaling knock-on as the number of goals scored has rocketed - my top striker has 15 goals in the first 6 games....

Thankfully after reporting this in the bugs forum SI siad they were looking at it.

Similarly other players physical stats are woeful. They just don't seem to develop correctly at all - there are some players with decent stats, but they are the minority.

5/ Players just aren't well rounded enough. The vast majority of regens have glaring flaws. There are currently only 2 perfectly rounded regens that i've found (one of which is my son, so i'm quite chuffed about that ) the rest tend to have either one vital technical stat in single figures or one or more physical stat that is far too low.

I'm not referring to 150CA players here, that i could accept, however i have a regen with 190+CA whi has only 2 passable physical stats and 3 technical stats above 10...the reason for this one is that he's two footed, but it's a consistent trend with single footed players - defenders who have no strength, wingers with 20 pace but 4 acceleration, whole teams that can't jump...the list goes on - now i'm all for players developing into individuals, we don't want everyone the same after all, however they are just too different from each other - a 180+CA CB or CF or CM etc will generally have decent stats in most areas, this just doesn't happen with regens.

I can post screenshots of any examples if people need them, but anyone who plays thee game for 20+ years will soon see that it gets very daft.

6/ Pat on the back if you've read this far, i'll shut up soon. The major knock on effect of the regen poblem is that the game becomes FAR too easy.

E.g. the AI sees a player with 190CA, and thinks "yippee i'll have a world class team now" - when in reality the player is badly flawed and any human can easily avoid such mistakes - repeat this event over a decade and the result isn't pretty.

In short, my team consists of well rounded players with excellent physical and technical stats appropriate for their position and tactics.

The AI teams consist of whichever high CA players they could get their hands on, with a bunch of 120CA players as they NEVER fill every gap created. In FM07 this worked, as the regens were if anything a little too good (although i personally liked it) and they also were well rounded (in general) however it is now the case that the AI buys players and must be scratching it's head as to why they are awful.

I don't expect the AI to consider individual stats - just going off CA is acceptable in order to make the game run quickly - however, regens need to work in order for the game to remain playable.

In the last 3 seasons the only points i've dropped were 4 draws - it just isn't fun anymore, the AI teams are just too incompotent to amke the game any sort of challenge. As i've said previously, the quality of GKs in particular is causing any half decent striker to get 30+ goals in a premier league season.

Sorry if this all sounded negative, but i feel SI have a quite severe problem here, i can only hope that it gets sorted for 09, and i have full faith that it will be. But as it stands, i just can't play my save anymore, i either have to buy poor players, or win every game....it just gets dull.

[Ched]

Doh, clearly i meant 170+PA rather than 107+PA, why can't i type!

[chopper99]

Ched, I agree with almost everything you say. Particularly the comments about AI teams becoming too easy to beat in the future. In my Gateshead save (2025) the main problem is with wingers. The AI teams have some technically fantastic wingers with 20's for dribbling, crossing, passing, shooting etc, but they're all completely ruined by having less then 8 in almost all of their physical attributes. Because of this they tend to be pretty useless against you.

The only part of your post I slightly disagree with is this bit:

1/ I firmly believe the PA of regens is fine - we can't expect 5 regens with 170+ PA in every team (or even every big team) as it just isn't realistic. One 107+PA player every other year (or every third year) for the biggest clubs in the world is fine - scouts can be used to pick up the rest.

I agree that every team shouldn't be producing 5 top quality players every season but what I'd personally like to see is more high PA regens being created but at the same time I'd like to see the development of players become a lot more varied and be affected by a lot more factors. So the end result is that you get the same number of top quality players you do now, but that's because not all of the 170+ PA players have reached their potential.

But I guess then you're getting into changes in the development model, which is best kept for a different thread

The only other thing I'd like to add to your list of issues (I know I've already mentioned it) is the lack of PPM's around in long term games. Have you found this to be a problem as well Ched? Or anyone else who's playing long term games for that matter. Or is this just something that's affected me?

[Ched]

Originally posted by chopper99:

Ched, I agree with almost everything you say. Particularly the comments about AI teams becoming too easy to beat in the future. In my Gateshead save (2025) the main problem is with wingers. The AI teams have some technically fantastic wingers with 20's for dribbling, crossing, passing, shooting etc, but they're all completely ruined by having less then 8 in almost all of their physical attributes. Because of this they tend to be pretty useless against you.

The only part of your post I slightly disagree with is this bit:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1/ I firmly believe the PA of regens is fine - we can't expect 5 regens with 170+ PA in every team (or even every big team) as it just isn't realistic. One 107+PA player every other year (or every third year) for the biggest clubs in the world is fine - scouts can be used to pick up the rest.

I agree that every team shouldn't be producing 5 top quality players every season but what I'd personally like to see is more high PA regens being created but at the same time I'd like to see the development of players become a lot more varied and be affected by a lot more factors. So the end result is that you get the same number of top quality players you do now, but that's because not all of the 170+ PA players have reached their potential.

But I guess then you're getting into changes in the development model, which is best kept for a different thread

The only other thing I'd like to add to your list of issues (I know I've already mentioned it) is the lack of PPM's around in long term games. Have you found this to be a problem as well Ched? Or anyone else who's playing long term games for that matter. Or is this just something that's affected me? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point - although i'd consider it more of a different approach to youth rather than a problem with the current set up.

Some time ago i saw a thread along the lines of this - basically it argued that development was too rigid, and that players should have a generally higher PA, but reach it less frequently - therefore creating the likes of "the next maradona" - the sort of wonder kids who have tons of PA but never make it; aimar, saviola, d'allesandro et al. Good players, but never lived up to their potential.

I agree with you that this is the direction SI should be looking, and fully hope that the game gets there at some point.

Oh yes, PPMs are something of an endangered species in the future. Regens just don't have them, unless they've been trained by an existing player, which means by about 2020 they are barely existent.

Not sure how SI could add them though - a 15 year old with PPMs would be daft, amybe they could generate as part of your tactics/player personality, e.g:

1/ a player with flair 18+ has a 30% chance of developing the "tries tricks" PPM

2/ a player with long shots 15+ has a 15% chance of developing "hits shots with power" PPM

3/ a temperamental player has a 20% chance of developing the "argues with officials" PPM

4/ if when the player is 17-21 he plays in a tactic that consistently uses "long shots = often" then he may develop the "tries long shots" PPM.

5/ similarly if during his developing years, a player plays with "forward runs = Often" then perhaps he could develop the "gets forward whenever possible".

Basically what i'm saying is it is most definitely flawed as it stands - they just don't exist any more, but what i don't want is random PPMs with new regens - ideally i would like to see PPMs develop fomr player or tactical traits - that way you could leave a mark on how the player develops - adding yet more depth to the game.

That said, this isn't going to make it to FM09 and i suspect it would require a large amount of work so i'm not going to hold my breath...

[Burscoughnian]

Anyone in the know;

Is it at all possible to get a regenerated player at CA195+ after how ever many years?

Thanks.

[phnompenhandy]

Originally posted by Burscoughnian:

Anyone in the know;

Is it at all possible to get a regenerated player at CA195+ after how ever many years?

Thanks.

if you really mean CA, then no - no young player would start with a Current Ability so high.

[Burscoughnian]

Sorry, no. I mean is it possible for regen players, at whatever age, to ever reach the top of the scale for Current Ability?

Assuming that they had a PA of 195+ or so, when they were spawned.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Burscoughnian:

Anyone in the know;

Is it at all possible to get a regenerated player at CA195+ after how ever many years?

Thanks.

Regen quality is random - you can get a 195 regen the first time you load (if you start in england, the date for spanish regen spawning is a week or two in) or you might have to wait 10 years - it is entirely random.

[x42bn6]

Originally posted by Burscoughnian:

Sorry, no. I mean is it possible for regen players, at whatever age, to ever reach the top of the scale for Current Ability?

Assuming that they had a PA of 195+ or so, when they were spawned.

I'm busy trying to do so. I have a regen with CA/PA 136/181 or something - I might increase his PA to 200 some time to see how far he can get. His age is 17 and I think he is in a very good position to at least hit 170-180.

[reo hustler]

I think it depends on the size of the database too. I'm playing on small right now (I've only found 3 decent players so far - 2014) but I imagine if I played on large it would be a different story.

[mg539]

I have only had one long-term game with wolves (10yrs) which was on a large 8.0.0 database (although by the time I stopped I was patched to 8.0.2).

There was certainly plenty of good regens in this game, many of whom I developed myself (often bought at 16/17 on recommendation of scouts). This included a left back with a PA of 198, and many more with PA's over 180. The best of all was an english striker I developed with a CA/PA 185/199 when my chairman accepted a 30M bid for him, 35% of which went to his academy club Middlesborough (I bought him from them at 16/17).

[chopper99]

I think people are focusing too much on the results given to them by mini scout or some other tool used to show hidden values.

Yes, there are a decent number of regens created in the game who have a high PA. And yes, plenty of these regens get close to their PA and on the face of it are excellent players. But if you forget about PA/CA and just concentrate on what you can see in the game you'll see that there is definitely a problem, namely too many regens with appaling physical stats, a lack of PPM's in the future and far too many regens with the wrong attributes for their position. I've lost count of the number of regen defenders I've seen with high attributes for Free Kicks and Corners. The same goes for wingers with no Acceleration and Pace but but high values in attributes that a winger really doesn't need.

[Nomis07]

Originally posted by chopper99:

I've lost count of the number of regen defenders I've seen with high attributes for Free Kicks and Corners. The same goes for wingers with no Acceleration and Pace but but high values in attributes that a winger really doesn't need.

I have 3 newgen defenders with PA over 180, each of then is in the 170's for CA but none of them have over 8 for pace. I'm also yet to see a DM/CM with decent acceleration or pace. All their important stats are there e.g. tackling etc but an 8 for pace puts doubt in your mind about playing them.

[Some guy....]

So there I am in 2018-19 and it seems that there are some seriously good regens around. Strangly enough the vast majority at this time of players between the ages of 24-30 are regens... Now, there might just be a link with the peak age of players v number of amazing regens, but then again, common sense is so rare it's a superpower.

Roughly around 2013-14 it seemed as if there wasn't enough good regens, and then I thought to myself, does it A: Matter and B: In 2013-14 all regens would have an average age of roughly 22. Now, don't get me wrong, there were some awesome regens around then, but the vast majority of quality was still in real players. Now however... Well here is the list of the 15 players with the highest value in the world (in millions of £s):

1. Bojan -27

2. Robert Ramsay -27[regen]

3. Maxence Getefin -26 [regen]

4. Konstantin Ignatov -25.5 [regen]

5. Peter Palfi - 25 [regen]

6. Roman Datsenko - 24.5 [regen]

7. Alexandre Pato - 24

8. Elia Beghetto - 23.5 [regen]

9. Cristian Barrios - 21 [regen]

10. Mladen Milanovic - 20.5 [regen]

11. Andy Carroll - 20.5

12. Jose Baxter - 19

13. Aguero - 17.5

14. Aquino - 17.5

15. Giovani dos Santos - 17.25

[happy slappy]

In my old Kilmore Rec game, I got to 2030 and had top youth and training facilities, and every year I got quite a few very good players that were to become very good players for my team and the league as a whole, but this was in N.Ireland so the quality of the league was poor.

Anyway, within a few years these players became so good that I was forced to sell them on to Championship sides because they were becoming unhappy and wanted to move.

So, in my view the regen quality wan't that bad, but this was in a poor league, if it were in a top league then I guess it would be different.

[chopper99]

Some Guy, again I think you're missing the point slightly.

In my game (2025) there are plenty of players worth very high amounts, and they do have high CA's and on first glance look excellent. But try and find a fast or physical player and you'll struggle. What you will find is plenty of world class looking defenders. But delve a little deeper and you'll find that instead of decent physical atrributes they have 20's for Corners and Free Kicks.

There are also no wonder kids created and the pool of PPM's is pretty much no longer existant.

So while it might seem fine in your game at the moment it will soon get to the point where there are no real players left and you'll not have a decent player under the age of 22 playing for a top team. Admittedly all players are equally poor physically by then so it doesn't matter a great deal. It's still frustrating though and should still be sorted.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Some guy....:

So there I am in 2018-19 and it seems that there are some seriously good regens around. Strangly enough the vast majority at this time of players between the ages of 24-30 are regens... Now, there might just be a link with the peak age of players v number of amazing regens, but then again, common sense is so rare it's a superpower.

Roughly around 2013-14 it seemed as if there wasn't enough good regens, and then I thought to myself, does it A: Matter and B: In 2013-14 all regens would have an average age of roughly 22. Now, don't get me wrong, there were some awesome regens around then, but the vast majority of quality was still in real players. Now however... Well here is the list of the 15 players with the highest value in the world (in millions of £s):

1. Bojan -27

2. Robert Ramsay -27[regen]

3. Maxence Getefin -26 [regen]

4. Konstantin Ignatov -25.5 [regen]

5. Peter Palfi - 25 [regen]

6. Roman Datsenko - 24.5 [regen]

7. Alexandre Pato - 24

8. Elia Beghetto - 23.5 [regen]

9. Cristian Barrios - 21 [regen]

10. Mladen Milanovic - 20.5 [regen]

11. Andy Carroll - 20.5

12. Jose Baxter - 19

13. Aguero - 17.5

14. Aquino - 17.5

15. Giovani dos Santos - 17.25

Value is in no way an indication of quality.

It is merely a monetary representation of player reputation. (if you don't believe me, edit a player to have a rep of 1 and a player to have a rep of 1000, leave their CAs etc constant and you will see what i mean)

Must agree with chopper here, as i said previously, the PA and CA of older regens is fine - however, physical stats are dismal and players quite often do not have stats in the right fields - e.g. i've got a CB with 180CA who has tackling 12....

Similarly, as has been said, there just aren't any bojan's or messi's - there are young guys with high PA, but i've seen VERY few 18 year olds who even get "back up" status, due to the slow development of CA - i'm not saying that it should be increased across the board, just that some variation is needed, we want some players who peak at 21 just to add some variation.

[Ched]

Originally posted by Some guy....:

Now, there might just be a link with the peak age of players v number of amazing regens, but then again, common sense is so rare it's a superpower.

Roughly around 2013-14 it seemed as if there wasn't enough good regens

Oh and my current save is entirely regens, so common sense aside, i think i can safely comment on their quality, thank you very much.

[toon army 06]

i think it is harder to spot talent at 16 to 18 years of age in this game sometimes the scounts don't help i have seen two player i had at a young age who i bought 1 for rangers and 1 for city.i was told they would not be worthwhile siging s now there about 20 and they look good prospects.are the scouts allways right.

[Some guy....]

So here is samples of regens, current quality real players (They aren't my selection of the best, they're just quality players...) and then quality players at the start.

Here's a download: <a href="http://www.downloadtaxi.com/d/1212669399" target="_blank">Link</a>

However, I do agree that there isn't enough variation in the rate of developement. Though, the overall quality does remain quite constant...

[Some guy....]

Try again...

[Ched]

Originally posted by Some guy....:

Try again...

Pretty much proves my main argument with regens - physical stats, particularly those of GKs, are quite often dismal.

Nice pic set tho - i've been thinking of how to display several players as i can't be bothered uploading 20 seperate pics

[pedrobrazil]

I disagree....im in 2014 with Palermo, and i have:

1 dutch world class defender (CA 188)

1 italian world class AMC (CA 194)with similar stats to kaka

1 italian world class left winger (CA 189) similar to C. Ronaldo

1 great CM from Saudi Arabia (CA 185) similar to VDV

and the greatest striker i´ve ever had, CA 199, Ronaldo reincarnated, 18 for pace, 20 for accel, 20 for heading, 20 finishing, 19 dribbling, 20 technique, 20 flair, 20 composure, 2 times best footballer in the world, one golden boot, valued at 50M euros, two footed, relishes big matches...its the ultimate beast, and only 22 years old.

He is brazilian and still not capped by the dumb coach.

I can post screenies when i get home to prove that... but none of those players came from my youth academy...

[Ched]

Originally posted by pedrobrazil:

I disagree....im in 2014 with Palermo, and i have:

1 dutch world class defender (CA 188)

1 italian world class AMC (CA 194)with similar stats to kaka

1 italian world class left winger (CA 189) similar to C. Ronaldo

1 great CM from Saudi Arabia (CA 185) similar to VDV

and the greatest striker i´ve ever had, CA 199, Ronaldo reincarnated, 18 for pace, 20 for accel, 20 for heading, 20 finishing, 19 dribbling, 20 technique, 20 flair, 20 composure, 2 times best footballer in the world, one golden boot, valued at 50M euros, two footed, relishes big matches...its the ultimate beast, and only 22 years old.

He is brazilian and still not capped by the dumb coach.

I can post screenies when i get home to prove that... but none of those players came from my youth academy...

1 very simple question:

How many GKs are there in the world with >15 agility? Or >15 jumping?

There are great individual players, my team is full of them, youth in general are quite flawed though. With GKs suffering quite badly.

My team has by far the best CM and CF i've seen, however, a more accurate measure of regens is to look at the AI teams - all of which are generally poor.

[tieio]

As I posted in another thread earlier...

The year (in game) is 2028 and a player with a corner ability over 9 is so rare you'd think he's made of gold. For fun I also searched for players who take free kicks and penalty kicks, free throws and crossing. Troubling results to say the least.

This is a pretty serious issue me thinks, didn't even notice it until my most recent corner taker retired and I was looking for a new one.

Now I am looking at physical attributes and seeing what people are talking about. Sure, there are still some good players in the game (regens) but they all suck at what they are supposed to be doing right. It really looks like every keeper in the league never works out at all! They are all so weak in physical stats.

[ZJ]

There is a regen GK from Angola (20 year old) in my save who have PA189 and Jumping 18 (around 12-13 in all other physical) so there is a few out there I guess but it seems likely that generally there is a little correlation between good physical stats and high PA players.

Next time I find one I'm going to make a special training schedule for him and making him do "high" strength and Aerobics until he is 24

Would be interesting to see if that works.

[Themistofelis]

All this because training doesn't work, a good training module would have solved many of the problems listed above .

[Ched]

Originally posted by Themistofelis:

All this because training doesn't work, a good training module would have solved many of the problems listed above .

TBF there was nothing wrong with youth in FM07, and the training was the same then. I think they just screwed something up.

When i reported it in the bugs forum, they said they were aware of it and were looking to fix it, so i can't see it being the same in FM09.

[tieio]

Originally posted by Ched:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

All this because training doesn't work, a good training module would have solved many of the problems listed above .

TBF there was nothing wrong with youth in FM07, and the training was the same then. I think they just screwed something up.

When i reported it in the bugs forum, they said they were aware of it and were looking to fix it, so i can't see it being the same in FM09. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but I want to be playing this game now, not wait until 09. Sure, the game is good now, but once you get to 2020's, it isn't worth playing anymore. I am sure they don't see this as a problem because so few people play that deep into the game, but this is something that should be addressed in a patch now rather than next version.

[ViG1980]

Originally posted by Ched:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

All this because training doesn't work, a good training module would have solved many of the problems listed above .

TBF there was nothing wrong with youth in FM07, and the training was the same then. I think they just screwed something up.

When i reported it in the bugs forum, they said they were aware of it and were looking to fix it, so i can't see it being the same in FM09. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The unpatched FM07 had very, very poor regens. The final patched fixed the problem but the level of quality was still lower than at the start of the game...

[jaguar8311]

I agree that GK's are not at the physical stats they need to be. But other players are still good

I have uploaded my save of June 2028. The only two players I have editited are James Allan(Created Myself) and GK Niko Kondylis(My Friend). Other than that, the database has been untouched

2028 Save

[Dr_dR3]

Originally posted by Steady Teddy:

I didn't play FM 07 long enough to evaluate regens. Were they as bad in FM 07 as FM 08?

I'm still playing FM 07, because very soon after FM 08 was brought out, there were complaints about regens.

I like to play long games, so regen quality is a crucial point for me. And tbf in FM 07, they're as good as it gets. My team is almost totally made out of regens in 2014 and all teams have lots of regens in their first team.

They are equally good as the players at the start of the game. Acceleration and pace seem to have dropped a bit, but there are still fast players. It's just that when you used to have 19/20 players they now have 16 acc/pace but I can live with that.

[pelicanstuff]

I've done some testing with FM2007 and found the regens to be far too good - on average much better than the players at the start of the game.

[Nene_Park_Faithfull]

I think every regen should have a PA and CA of 200 when they enter your ranks around the age of 15/16.

This will save those from having to load up fmm.

[Hauler24]

Like I said in another thread maybe SI don't want you to play long term careers cause I mean that would mean that they lose money cause your having a good time with your current career why would some people want to go out and buy the next FM. Take that into thought.

[Fredric Drum]

Originally posted by Hauler24:

Like I said in another thread maybe SI don't want you to play long term careers cause I mean that would mean that they lose money cause your having a good time with your current career why would some people want to go out and buy the next FM. Take that into thought.

I'd rather not buy FM08(which I haven't) and at the same time not play FM07 (which I don't any more) than play a game with crap regens. Maybe they should take that into thought.

[MSCCG]

I think some people are confusing realistic regens and good regens. Its not so realistic to have a complete first team of regens by 2014 to be honest, if you are a top flight team. If that is true, then the regens in 07 were too good. Think about this: all the hugely good youngsters today (U-23) probably can't make up more than say 1 or 2 teams together. Of course I'll need more evidence to prove that.

[x42bn6]

But the regens in 2007 were far too good. I got a 19-year-old to become Italy's first-choice striker with a CA/PA of around 183/196, for example, and it wasn't too hard.

[lk8704]

oooh first post - exciting!

I have no idea how to screenshot so please bear with me. I have a regen player who is the best I have ever seen. He is 21 years old in 2013. I got him for 325K from Guegnon in 2010. I loaned him out for oneseason. In 2011 he scored 28 in 28 with an av rating of 7.21. 2012: 26 in 30 with an av rating of 7.27. So far this season: 16 in 15 with an av rating of 7.50.

On the same game I have generated in the region of 110 million profit of buying and selling on regens, including 3 at 10 mil, 2 at 20 mil and 1 at 30. Having said that, this is the only game I have which actually has decent regens.

By the way, if someone could help me out with the screenshot I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

[Themistofelis]

In fm07 youth development is somewhat accelerates with the pass of time , up to 3rd season i usually have my players promoted from youth team to B team at CA 80-90 , after year 4 their promotion CA gets to 100-110 ( i am talking about 16 year olds becoming 17 year olds, i promote them so they can get proper training ), after 7-8 years their CA is close to 110.

Regen quality is connected to the size of DB (in 07 i have not play 08 that much ) , i played a couple of games with "gigantic" db and there was more than 10 guys with PA +190 every single year....

[Guest arrogantio]

This thread conflates three different issues

i) CA/PA of regens

the latter is superbly balanced, but starting CA is perhaps not variable enough, hence relatively few wonderkids

ii) development speed of players

which is somewhat slow and even, hence relatively few wonderkids

iii) distribution of CA amongst regens which needs quite a bit of work, including (a) putting hard caps and minimums for some positions and/or hard templates for multiple types of player that occupy a certain position

-e.g no DCs are good crossers unless they are exceptional technical all rounders or trained to at least competent at fullback.

(b) factoring in explicit links between attributes

-e.g the regens I've seen don't always seem to adequately reflect that it is almost certain that a player who can cross well and take free kicks will be a more than adequate good corner taker, reasonably likely that a player skilled at crossing or free kicks will be average or better at corners, highly unlikely that a player who can neither cross nor strike a free kick will be any more than pitiful at taking corners)

© explicitly linking starting attributes to PA - players with relatively high potential ability ought to have a distribution of attributes which permits a relatively optimal allocation of attributes at their peak assuming a normal development curve.

For example, a youngster with jumping of 4 will not develop a jumping of 11+ no matter how high their potential. Players who can't fulfil the basic positional requirement of wining headers regularly cannot be considered world class central defenders; therefore regens with the potential to be world class natural DCs ought to have a minimum jumping, which would be higher than that of players with a similar CA but lower PA.

The idea of a high PA is that the player has the ability to excel in their position, and there are certain crippling weaknesses that can't be adequately compensated for by a general increase in attributes along a relatively linear development scale

[Ched]

Originally posted by arrogantio:

This thread conflates three different issues

i) CA/PA of regens

the latter is superbly balanced, but starting CA is perhaps not variable enough, hence relatively few wonderkids

ii) development speed of players

which is somewhat slow and even, hence relatively few wonderkids

iii) distribution of CA amongst regens which needs quite a bit of work, including (a) putting hard caps and minimums for some positions and/or hard templates for multiple types of player that occupy a certain position

-e.g no DCs are good crossers unless they are exceptional technical all rounders or trained to at least competent at fullback.

(b) factoring in explicit links between attributes

-e.g the regens I've seen don't always seem to adequately reflect that it is almost certain that a player who can cross well and take free kicks will be a more than adequate good corner taker, reasonably likely that a player skilled at crossing or free kicks will be average or better at corners, highly unlikely that a player who can neither cross nor strike a free kick will be any more than pitiful at taking corners)

© explicitly linking starting attributes to PA - players with relatively high potential ability ought to have a distribution of attributes which permits a relatively optimal allocation of attributes at their peak assuming a normal development curve.

For example, a youngster with jumping of 4 will not develop a jumping of 11+ no matter how high their potential. Players who can't fulfil the basic positional requirement of wining headers regularly cannot be considered world class central defenders; therefore regens with the potential to be world class natural DCs ought to have a minimum jumping, which would be higher than that of players with a similar CA but lower PA.

The idea of a high PA is that the player has the ability to excel in their position, and there are certain crippling weaknesses that can't be adequately compensated for by a general increase in attributes along a relatively linear development scale

Excellent post - i hope SI see this as it is exactly how it should eb done.

[pedrobrazil]

Honestly, if a have a 180+ CA regen keeper averaging 7.50+ i really don´t care if his physical stats are unimpressive... In my save im loaded with world class regens in the likes of messi, c. ronaldo, villa, ibra etc, many of them with amazing physical stats.

Also, most of the top teams around the world also have some amazing players, and i experienced no drop in overall quality of players yet, in 2015...even to the point where i had a 17 year old wonderkid...

I understand your complaints, and i believe many of you have been experiencing annoying issues with the regens, but for me everyting has been working perfectly so far... I must stat though, i´m in 8.0.0, so maybe its something related to the patch...

[bozo12]

I too have had regens with great physical stats (and generally great stats throughout) although i have noticed a few with low natural fitness), im in 2020, and have a team purely of regens, and most of them are superb. although, with the new players that are coming through and through my scouting the future looks bleak, the futures not orange.

[RockinRobin]

one thing i havent seen mentioned at all here is the regens who simply disappear into the nothingness. I was very frustrated when i got the new version of scout and did a world search to find out what talent was about. I found a regen with a PA of 200 without a club in africa. I of course went to him in the game and offered him a contract, sadly he had decided to retire!?! He couldnt find a club. Crazy. he was 19 years old.

SO what people may find that players are being generated but without something like genie scout to find them they end up just vanishing into nothing. Just imagine if the worlds most naturally gifted player had to become a plumber cos he couldnt find a team to play for.

Has anyone else had this? Also it pays not to just think about PA but also the rating of players in positions. I have players with PA of 160 whose ratings in certain positions are in the top 3 in the world - this makes that PA stat pointless!!

[Canabary]

I've gotten frustrated about this as well. But there are clubs out there that produce more quality regens than others.

One of which would be Sao Paulo. I've had 2 Pelé like strikers coming from Brazil, the best one was from Sao Paulo, was as quick as SWP (which shocked me) and slightly weaker than Rooney and had the scoring scent of Luca Toni.

Ajax produce none at all, which is frustrating looking back at their RL history...

However, there ARE regens out there that can do a fairly good job for you. I found this regen while scouting french teams with 3 scouts:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/Canabary/PitshouGay.png?t=1213744532

He might not look much on this picture, but 3 years later and these stats have increased tenfold. I'm still worried about his strenth and tackling though... doesn't seem like he'll be all what they promised... PA of 182.

My new Regen Defender is also pretty good, at least technical wise. his marking, passing, tackling and heading is inpeccable, his strenght and jumping are somewhat to be desired however...

Using Genie scout doesn't help either really, as most of the regens will never make it to the championship, let alone the prem...

[pelicanstuff]

Originally posted by RockinRobin:

one thing i havent seen mentioned at all here is the regens who simply disappear into the nothingness. I was very frustrated when i got the new version of scout and did a world search to find out what talent was about. I found a regen with a PA of 200 without a club in africa. I of course went to him in the game and offered him a contract, sadly he had decided to retire!?! He couldnt find a club. Crazy. he was 19 years old.

SO what people may find that players are being generated but without something like genie scout to find them they end up just vanishing into nothing. Just imagine if the worlds most naturally gifted player had to become a plumber cos he couldnt find a team to play for.

I'm sure the same thing happens all the time in real life. The only difference is that you can look at the PA in the game, whereas it obviously isn't an option in real life.

[Tom Leeburn]

Originally posted by Canabary:

I've gotten frustrated about this as well. But there are clubs out there that produce more quality regens than others.

One of which would be Sao Paulo. I've had 2 Pelé like strikers coming from Brazil, the best one was from Sao Paulo, was as quick as SWP (which shocked me) and slightly weaker than Rooney and had the scoring scent of Luca Toni.

Ajax produce none at all, which is frustrating looking back at their RL history...

However, there ARE regens out there that can do a fairly good job for you. I found this regen while scouting french teams with 3 scouts:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/Canabary/PitshouGay.png?t=1213744532

He might not look much on this picture, but 3 years later and these stats have increased tenfold. I'm still worried about his strenth and tackling though... doesn't seem like he'll be all what they promised... PA of 182.

My new Regen Defender is also pretty good, at least technical wise. his marking, passing, tackling and heading is inpeccable, his strenght and jumping are somewhat to be desired however...

Using Genie scout doesn't help either really, as most of the regens will never make it to the championship, let alone the prem...

why dont you post a pic of him now then - he looks pretty ***** in your photo.

a defender with poor physical stats is a very common ocurance, if he realy is technically excellent you may want to retrain him to be a dmc/mc.

[Tom Leeburn]

Originally posted by arrogantio:

This thread conflates three different issues

i) CA/PA of regens

the latter is superbly balanced, but starting CA is perhaps not variable enough, hence relatively few wonderkids

ii) development speed of players

which is somewhat slow and even, hence relatively few wonderkids

iii) distribution of CA amongst regens which needs quite a bit of work, including (a) putting hard caps and minimums for some positions and/or hard templates for multiple types of player that occupy a certain position

-e.g no DCs are good crossers unless they are exceptional technical all rounders or trained to at least competent at fullback.

(b) factoring in explicit links between attributes

-e.g the regens I've seen don't always seem to adequately reflect that it is almost certain that a player who can cross well and take free kicks will be a more than adequate good corner taker, reasonably likely that a player skilled at crossing or free kicks will be average or better at corners, highly unlikely that a player who can neither cross nor strike a free kick will be any more than pitiful at taking corners)

© explicitly linking starting attributes to PA - players with relatively high potential ability ought to have a distribution of attributes which permits a relatively optimal allocation of attributes at their peak assuming a normal development curve.

For example, a youngster with jumping of 4 will not develop a jumping of 11+ no matter how high their potential. Players who can't fulfil the basic positional requirement of wining headers regularly cannot be considered world class central defenders; therefore regens with the potential to be world class natural DCs ought to have a minimum jumping, which would be higher than that of players with a similar CA but lower PA.

The idea of a high PA is that the player has the ability to excel in their position, and there are certain crippling weaknesses that can't be adequately compensated for by a general increase in attributes along a relatively linear development scale

excellent post - reasonably inflexible templates for player types is deffinately a good idea. seeing DC's who clearly have decent potential - yet have poor key defending attributes because their CA is used giving them 20 for crossing or corners is my KEY annoyance with this shoddy regen system. This will happen incredibly rarely in reality - big tall centrebacks will spend their career trying to head the ball in the back of the net from a corner, not taking the bloody thing.

i like your idea of giving high pa players a minimum for certain key attributes - i would say for a dc jumping of at least 13 is a minimum for a top class player. (that is just to allow for the odd continental short-arse like puyol!)

all centrebacks with a PA OF 140 or more should start life with jumping of at least 10, to give them any chance of making it as a player.

[RockinRobin]

Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RockinRobin:

one thing i havent seen mentioned at all here is the regens who simply disappear into the nothingness. I was very frustrated when i got the new version of scout and did a world search to find out what talent was about. I found a regen with a PA of 200 without a club in africa. I of course went to him in the game and offered him a contract, sadly he had decided to retire!?! He couldnt find a club. Crazy. he was 19 years old.

SO what people may find that players are being generated but without something like genie scout to find them they end up just vanishing into nothing. Just imagine if the worlds most naturally gifted player had to become a plumber cos he couldnt find a team to play for.

I'm sure the same thing happens all the time in real life. The only difference is that you can look at the PA in the game, whereas it obviously isn't an option in real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair this would be true to real life - just look at what glen hoddle is doing in spain. He is taking rejected players from around the world and trying to turn them into world beaters - those players who have been rejected from clubs for some reason or other. Potential world stars who have had a drug problem or something similar! I really think people checking should be looking at the potential ability in the positions rather than PA, cos that 190PA player could be a useless defender with potential ability of 70% in that position due to their weaknesses.