Opening a can of worms - new patch

[Robhug]

Ok, I have already said that I am sure they pick up a ton of bugs, and probably lots that I never would have found.

Obviously they didnt.....If they indeed did, then the game should have been given a more realistic release date.

Sigh....

so, your saying they found lots of bugs thet you would never have found, but missed glaring obvious ones that everyone found?

come come, brain in gear first before typing in future.

[FM_Since_Its_Birth]

SI 15/10/09 - We don't know when the patch will be available, but we will do everything in our power to ensure that it's available at some point on the 30th October. I apologise in advance if this doesn't happen, as I'm not going to be around much on the forums over the coming weeks as I'm about to go on a lengthy PR tour around Europe.

SEGA - 26/11/09 OK - the patch will be out next week.

Pop back to this thread for the next update - which'll be available - next week, around the time you're expecting the patch.

Not really that helpful or constructive, is it?

I'd rather deal in facts when I have them. SI have a proven history of fixing any key problems to an exceptional level. When they've done that, we'll let everyone know. Sorry that's not to your taste, but experience shows it's the best way of doing it.

--------------------

As you can see above it is nice to see you and SEGA and singing from the same hymn sheet.

Thank you for the link, however that update on patches was last done by SI on 15/10 !

Maybe you can enlighten us a little further as to when we be know the date for the next patch?

YAWN!! You even had a response in your own thread from an official source and you are still asking!!!!

30th October there probably was a patch almost ready - then someone probably found another bug etc and rather than skip they are trying to get it all working for you. Which is what everyone has aksed.

You are not going to get a date so just give it up...for now at least.

[Gypsy_Roots]

And this thread has done nothing to help.

All info you are requesting is in the official threads - and have been repeated over and over again.

As others have said your frustration is understood and i know that no one is more frustrated than SI - this is very evident when you read the threads. But i would rather their time was spent fixing the problem than having to listen to constant complaints about the same issues that they are trying to fix.

Jesus....Read the whole thread....

I am saying that there shouldnt be such glaringly obvious mistakes/bugs in the game that only require a few hours to identify.

Once these have been recognised, then make the paying customer of their product aware when a fix will be available.

I dont understand why people think of this game as a 'favour' and 'should be grateful'. I love it as much as the next person, however the games industry is worth a lot of money, as is the release of this particular title to the developers.

I have paid for this, it was not a favour, and then expect an after sales service. If you got given your game for 'free' then lucky you, I however paid money to purchase this retail item.

[Gypsy_Roots]

[/b]

YAWN!! You even had a response in your own thread from an official source and you are still asking!!!!

30th October there probably was a patch almost ready - then someone probably found another bug etc and rather than skip they are trying to get it all working for you. Which is what everyone has aksed.

You are not going to get a date so just give it up...for now at least.

Nope - I will not...... If they want to shut the thread, so be it..

This attitude of 'giving up, because this is how it is' is exactly why we are in this position.

[FM_Since_Its_Birth]

Jesus....Read the whole thread....

I am saying that there shouldnt be such glaringly obvious mistakes/bugs in the game that only require a few hours to identify.

Once these have been recognised then making the paying customer of their product aware when a fix will be available.

I dont understand why people think of this game as a 'favour' and 'should be grateful'. I love it as much as the next person, however the games industry is worth a lot of money, as is the release of this particular title to the developers.

I have paid for this, it was not a favour, and then expect an after sales service. If you got given your game for 'free' then lucky you, I however paid money to purchase this retail item.

Ive read the whole thread - it kind of repeats itself.....

Gypsy - When is the patch out

SI/Sega - We dont have a date

Gypsy - But when is it out

Si/Sega - We dont have a date yet

Gypsy - Roughly when would it be

SI/Sega - We dont have a date yet

Its not me that isnt reading things properly mate!

SI always say the game wont be perfect when it first comes out - so your fault for spending your money if that is what you were expecting.

[Gypsy_Roots]

so, your saying they found lots of bugs thet you would never have found, but missed glaring obvious ones that everyone found?

come come, brain in gear first before typing in future.

Yes, exactly that -

I appreciate they will find a ton of bugs I may have never even noticed, but have missed some that smack you right in the face within a few hours of playing.

Why are you finding that difficult to understand Robhug?

[Gypsy_Roots]

Ive read the whole thread - it kind of repeats itself.....

Gypsy - When is the patch out

SI/Sega - We dont have a date

Gypsy - But when is it out

Si/Sega - We dont have a date yet

Gypsy - Roughly when would it be

SI/Sega - We dont have a date yet

Its not me that isnt reading things properly mate!

SI always say the game wont be perfect when it first comes out - so your fault for spending your money if that is what you were expecting.

That is called persistance... You can sheep around with your other buddies who accept it, I dont.

Two typoes of people on this

- Those that accept

- Those that dont.

I dont accept... As for not spending my money on it, then if you read back that is what I intend with to do next version. I will indeed wait until the 2nd or 3rd fix...

That doesnt help right now though does it.

[UELLfan]

It's not difficult to understand, lad. It just shows you don't have a clue of how real world testing goes.

[bigdunk]

You can shout and stamp your feet all you like, but the fundamental facts of software development are you cannot put an absolute release date on a patch because you have no idea how long something is going to take to track down, how long something is going to take to fix and how long any other issues arising from your original fix are going to take to sort. I've said this before and I'll say it again, you are basically not only asking someone to find a needle in a haystack, you're also asking them to put a precise date on when they will find it.

[FM_Since_Its_Birth]

That is called persistance... You can sheep around with your other buddies who accept it, I dont.

Two typoes of people on this

- Those that accept

- Those that dont.

I dont accept... As for not spending my money on it, then if you read back that is what I intend with to do next version. I will indeed wait until the 2nd or 3rd fix...

That doesnt help right now though does it.

Then you have my sympathy for the much unhappiness that awaits you for the rest of your life!!!!!

Im bored now. Good luck with finding out the date, but make sure you are aware - when you do get the date dont think its because you asked for it. Its because SI finished the patch.

[Gypsy_Roots]

It's not difficult to understand, lad. It just shows you don't have a clue of how real world testing goes.

No I dont - however I DO know that if I find bugs within 3 hours of playing, they have missed something somewhere.

Second to that when the fix will be available - Those are the two concerns in my OP.

Maybe you could kindly inform us whilst we are on the subject UELLfan on how 'real life testing' is done, as you seem to know all about it..

[bigdunk]

It's simple. The testers almost certainly found the same bugs you did (the memory leak issue aside), but they weren't fixed for release. The usual reasons being either that they were deemed low priority and other stuff was fixed instead, or that the risks from any potential fix outweighed the benefit of fixing the bug. Again, this is just the facts of life with software development.

[Gypsy_Roots]

Then you have my sympathy for the much unhappiness that awaits you for the rest of your life!!!!!

Im bored now. Good luck with finding out the date, but make sure you are aware - when you do get the date dont think its because you asked for it. Its because SI finished the patch.

That makes two of us!

Maybe you could go and play that game that you are eternally grateful for them making. I paid for mine, so I think I'll stay and try to get my point accross.

[Gypsy_Roots]

It's simple. The testers almost certainly found the same bugs you did (the memory leak issue aside), but they weren't fixed for release. The usual reasons being either that they were deemed low priority and other stuff was fixed instead, or that the risks from any potential fix outweighed the benefit of fixing the bug. Again, this is just the facts of life with software development.

That was a constructive response, and if you are correct then it begs this question:

If they new about these issues before releasing the game a long time ago why are we almost in Dec with no fix made? Surely they would have patched every bu/issue in the first patch.

Because of this I think you are partially correct. They may have know about them in advance. Poor show if they did, as we are still waiting for it to be fixed

[GillsMan]

I don't really understand what the problem is here. You've got the "rough estimate" of when it'll be delivered that you asked for. It'll hopefully be some time in December; but not definitely.

[Indi75]

oh FFS.... they've answered. Move along.

[Gypsy_Roots]

I don't really understand what the problem is here. You've got the "rough estimate" of when it'll be delivered that you asked for. It'll hopefully be some time in December; but not definitely.

When was that? Who has answered that from an official perspective?

Could be December , however it might not..... Great..lol

[Gypsy_Roots]

oh FFS.... they've answered. Move along.

See you later then...

[Dicko99]

oh FFS.... they've answered. Move along.

could you point the post out with the answer please

[Gypsy_Roots]

You can shout and stamp your feet all you like, but the fundamental facts of software development are you cannot put an absolute release date on a patch because you have no idea how long something is going to take to track down, how long something is going to take to fix and how long any other issues arising from your original fix are going to take to sort. I've said this before and I'll say it again, you are basically not only asking someone to find a needle in a haystack, you're also asking them to put a precise date on when they will find it.

They gave a date on the last patch so it is not quite the needle that you have pointed out.

Some people cant even play the game because of the 'memory dump' issue. I am sure you wouldnt be so accomodating if it directly affected you in this way.

[FrazT]

oh FFS.... they've answered. Move along.

Keep calm and take your own advice to move on.

[Gypsy_Roots]

I want to try and get this thread back on track as it has become a little arguementitive recently. There are two main points that need adressing that I am yet to find a suitable answer for.

1. There shouldnt be such glaringly obvious mistakes/bugs in the game that only require a few hours of gameplay to identify.

2. Once these have been recognised, ensure that the paying customer of their product is aware when a fix will be available.

[Themistofelis]

I think it is a conspiracy they will release a patch but keep it secret from us !!!!!!11

Never believe what SEGA guys are posting.

I can not play the game because of the memory dumb too but i wouldn't ask people who are going inside gigabytes of code searching for a couple of misplaced/wrong things to tell me when they will find and fix them.

[GillsMan]

I want to try and get this thread back on track as it has become a little arguementitive recently. There are two main points that need adressing that I am yet to find a suitable answer for.

1. There shouldnt be such glaringly obvious mistakes/bugs in the game that only require a few hours of gameplay to identify.

2. Once these have been recognised, ensure that the paying customer of their product is aware when a fix will be available.

1. Being involved in software testing myself, I couldn'ttell you the number of times that we test a software update, sign it off, release it to the users, only to be told of a couple of significant bugs that mean we have to start over. It's nothing to do with the quality of our testing and everything to do with the complexities of usage and us not always being able to second-guess how users will use the software (bearing in mind everybody has their own ways of using software/playing the game).

2. You have been told when it'll be available - approximately. Matt's already explained why he's not prepared to provide you with an exact date, and it's a more than reasonable answer tbh. At this stage, they don't have an exact date - they more than likely have a target date, but once it's ready, they'll let you know, have no fear about that.

[hursty2]

SI said they are using a three patch strategy this year.

No.1 - Short time after release. (RELEASED)

No.2 - December

No.3 - After January transfer window has closed. Will included data update.

I don't get what your moaning about tbh. You have to understand things take time, there are many variables in a game like FM, tweaking one thing may affect another. SI have to make the right decision if they say the release of the patch will be on a particular date but it isn't there will be outcry amongst the forums. They are only being honest.

[The Laughing Man]

I never said anything ruins the game. I said I am fed up with getting so excited over this game on release date to find the same old story.........................That it wont be 100% completed and bug free for another 2-3 months. As I said before, I find this unnaceptable, others dont. That is called a divided opinion. If you are happy with buying something that strikes you as not fully tested then again that is your choice.

It is mine to feel I shouldnt have paid 100% price of the game when the game is 80% finished.

All I am actually asking for in my OP is a date for a fix......It isnt a big ask....or at least it shouldnt be!

a lot of things people are complaining about are not bugs as such, they are things that could do with a little bit of fine tuning.

e.g "strikers score too many goals"

&

"defenders make too many mistakes/mark poorly"

these are not bugs, they are subjective criticisms, some people agree with the statements and some people wont.

They are minor match engine issues which are likely to be linked and will be resolved with some fine tuning. This has to be done carefully as adjusting one parameter can have a knock on effect elsewhere and result in more unforeseen problems. hence why si wont rush to release a patch until it has been tested properly.

I think the game was properly tested and is the most bug free release to date.

Some bugs are so random they may not get picked up in testing. e.g i am experiencing the player registration bug. one of the players in my squad loses his registration seemingly randomly after the registration window has been closed. Not many people are experiencing this bug and for me this only occurred in my save 4 seasons into the game - hence it is quite rare and is hard to spot.

[Gypsy_Roots]

1. Being involved in software testing myself, I couldn'ttell you the number of times that we test a software update, sign it off, release it to the users, only to be told of a couple of significant bugs that mean we have to start over. It's nothing to do with the quality of our testing and everything to do with the complexities of usage and us not always being able to second-guess how users will use the software (bearing in mind everybody has their own ways of using software/playing the game).

2. You have been told when it'll be available - approximately. Matt's already explained why he's not prepared to provide you with an exact date, and it's a more than reasonable answer tbh. At this stage, they don't have an exact date - they more than likely have a target date, but once it's ready, they'll let you know, have no fear about that.

GillsMan - I really really appreciate your constructive input into this discussion. Yours has actually been one of the best responses I have had as of yet.

1. I can udestand your point a little better now as I have never been involved in software testing, your comment has helped. However I still cant add up how you use the reason of users playing the game differently as an effective answer. Yes, of course we all use/play the game differently, however the current known bugs/issues are hardly hidden and arent user applicable. They affect almost each player of the game (to different degrees granted) and it doesnt sit true with me that they would be 'hidden/unrecognisable' from the testers. It is far more likely in my opinion that these were noticed prior to the release of the game, however due to whatever reason, were not able to be tackled/fixed by the release date. This means two things. Either the testing should have began earlier on the final build......or.......the realease date was too ambitious.

2. When Matt gave his (approx) date there was a very high level of sarcasm involved, I have not seen someone say 'December is our aim and is more than likely we will reach it. We will have an exact date with you soon as December is only a few days away so we appreciate your patience. We value you in sticking with us and believing that we can rectify the common issues that must be very inconvienient for some users'.

That is what I would call a professional response to this subject. Unfortunately, SEGA & SI have become all to comfortable with the majority of the games users saying 'we will wait, we love you, we appreciate you making the game for us, it must be very difficult' etc etc.

If only Championship manager or another football manager game of equal quality was available to lovers of this genre. I think then and only then would SEGA & SI have to speed up this process, however as it stands they have no direct competition and know that we are a niche market that they have almost indefinitely to themselves.

[flashback790]

I love FM, its my favourite game every year, without fail, better than anything on PS3 or 360 IMO, but people like me are getting tired of buying a game on release day and not being able to throw ourselves into it for several months because the game isn't finished. As the OP says SI have done a great job, as they do every year and the only reason it isn't finished is because SEGA(forgot it was SEGA) want to make money from people, which is fair enough, they are a company designed to make money, but they are willing to put out an unfinished game and then fix it with patches instead of waiting for SI to find all the bugs and make the game as good as it can be. Some people are happy playing an unfinished game, others aren't, but the point is WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH IT. I don't have a problem with SI, I doubt anybody else has either, although we do vent our frustrations at SI, it is SEGA and their money grubbing hands I have a problem with. I would happily wait until xmas for the game to be released if it meant that the game was as good as it could be.

[stevvy]

They go as fast as they can, trying to make sure everything works. 1 fix may cause other issues within the game, they have to make sure everything included in the patch works and improves the game. It's not their fault if nobody else has as good a quality game in this genre, but they certainly won't just take their time for the sake of it. They've given a potential date (December), because they feel that's when it'll be ready. They also stated in the sticky (which I believe is still there) that they'd be doing a 3 patch strategy, and the 2nd patch would be available around December, with a 3rd to follow February time (for the January transfer update). They want to make sure everything in the patch works, and doesn't cause more issues in the game. If it was as simple as just getting it all sorted in a couple of weeks, I'm certain they would, but unfortunately that's not possible. They'll be working flat out to get the patch ready asap, and when it is ready, we'll all be informed. Give them a break, they've said December hopefully, that's all they can do until they're more certain of a specific date. To basically imply that they're not going flat out and not trying their hardest to get the patch available for us asap is wrong, and not needed. They gain nothing by just taking their time and plodding along.

[Gypsy_Roots]

I love FM, its my favourite game every year, without fail, better than anything on PS3 or 360 IMO, but people like me are getting tired of buying a game on release day and not being able to throw ourselves into it for several months because the game isn't finished. As the OP says SI have done a great job, as they do every year and the only reason it isn't finished is because SEGA(forgot it was SEGA) want to make money from people, which is fair enough, they are a company designed to make money, but they are willing to put out an unfinished game and then fix it with patches instead of waiting for SI to find all the bugs and make the game as good as it can be. Some people are happy playing an unfinished game, others aren't, but the point is WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH IT. I don't have a problem with SI, I doubt anybody else has either, although we do vent our frustrations at SI, it is SEGA and their money grubbing hands I have a problem with. I would happily wait until xmas for the game to be released if it meant that the game was as good as it could be.

I agree with some of your points here, however not all. I dont think SEGA can be classed as simply 'money grubbing hands'.

They obviously try to tie the release of their game as close as possible to the start of the season and the end of the transfer window to ensure the world wide leagues are up to date.

This also brings an added rush of punters as there is a fever frenzy in football leagues from accross the world at the start of each relevant season. With this brings more likeliness of the game selling, due to everyone being excited about the new football season.

I have said before in my previous post that it seems the best way forward is to let some of the forum users test the game as well as we seem to have a 'keener' eye for spotting some of the playability bugs that the testers dont pick up on (or ignore, which ever way you want to look at it).

[tonif]

Start a new thread entitled: "I'm so hurt...because Matt from Sega was so rude and sarcastic and on top of it he refused pointblank to give me an exact date as to when the 2nd patch will be released"

... and start all over again. Dont' forget lots of tissues.

[Gypsy_Roots]

Start a new thread entitled: "I'm so hurt...because Matt from Sega was so rude and sarcastic and on top of it he refused pointblank to give me an exact date as to when the 2nd patch will be released"

... and start all over again. Dont' forget lots of tissues.

Very mature tonif.......

Well done for making yourself look like a 1st class idiot.

[tonif]

No, Sir, you have made yourself look like an idiot from your very first opening post in this pointless thread.

[FM_Since_Its_Birth]

No, Sir, you have made yourself look like an idiot from your very first opening post in this pointless thread.

:thup::thup:

[Gypsy_Roots]

No, Sir, you have made yourself look like an idiot from your very first opening post in this pointless thread.

I am not sure that with over 1,500 views this is an idiotic thread. However, as always thanks for your input.

[Gypsy_Roots]

:thup::thup:

Oh, it's back. I thought you were bored??!

EDIT: Scrub that comment above. Last time you got involved you were simply looking for an abusing arguement, so I think I will pass this time.

[Ter]

I have said before in my previous post that it seems the best way forward is to let some of the forum users test the game as well as we seem to have a 'keener' eye for spotting some of the playability bugs that the testers dont pick up on (or ignore, which ever way you want to look at it).

We actually do do that and have had a lot of constructive forum posters on our beta test team this year.

[Gypsy_Roots]

We actually do do that and have had a lot of constructive forum posters on our beta test team this year.

Brilliant! I am pleased forums users have got involved. Who were they? So we can directly asked them how they missed such obvious issues.

[tonif]

I ma not sure that with over 1,500<...>

Ah! Is this what you were aiming at? I suspected that...tell you what, follow my advice and start the thread I suggested, you might even get more views...

[Gypsy_Roots]

Ah! Is this what you were aiming at? I suspected that...tell you what, follow my advice and start the thread I suggested, you might even get more views...

not at all. I am simply saying that many people must be interested in looking. If you choose to be one of those that ignores the deficiencies, that is your choice. Myself and others choose not to.

I am not on here to have an immature arguement, I was looking for intelligent feedback on the points raised. Whether you believe they were pointless points raised or not is no concern to me.

[Nick Habershon]

There seems to be a lot of noise in this thread when there doesn't really need to be.

We are on a 3 patch strategy, as stated in the thread posted by Ter above. This has not changed since that thread was created. Therefore, we are still on course to do the 10.2 patch around Christmas time as stated in that same thread. Consequently, 10.3 will likely follow in the new year.

There are still things we would like to fix for 10.2 and consequently we are working on them at the moment. As a result of these things that we are still looking at, we don't have an exact date as to when 10.2 will be released. It would be worse for us to pick a date now and then risk missing something or have an unexpected last-minute issue arise which would delay things. That would raise expectations dramatically and lead to a lot of disappointed people.

There's nothing equivocal about this and no-one is adopting a wall of silence. The bottom line is that when we know the 10.2 release date, we will let you know.

[flashback790]

SEGA do have money grubbing hands, do you think they care that the game isn't finished, or that no matter what happens, they make alot of money from the game. SEGA don't care that gamers get frustrated and that some even stop playing due to the issues raised on these forums. But they do like the fanboys who continually refuse to admit the game has even 1 problem, as far as they are concerned we raise issues that don't exist because we suck at the game and don't know a tactic from a tic-tac.

[edgar555]

SEGA do have money grubbing hands, do you think they care that the game isn't finished, or that no matter what happens, they make alot of money from the game. SEGA don't care that gamers get frustrated and that some even stop playing due to the issues raised on these forums. But they do like the fanboys who continually refuse to admit the game has even 1 problem, as far as they are concerned we raise issues that don't exist because we suck at the game and don't know a tactic from a tic-tac.

Dry your eyes mate, its not worth crying about. Firstly you thought the game was still published by Eidos and now you're surprised that a huge corporation are interested in making money, they're not a charity. Anyway, I've said it before and I will say it again: the game is not broken, its pretty darn good. They won't give you a patch date cos they don't know when it will be ready. If they said 'first week of December' you can guarantee that the minute the clock ticked into the second week in December one of you cry babies would open a thread called 'SI lied, SEGA suck, wheres my patch'. And you probably don't know your tictacs from your tactics.

[tonif]

<...>If you choose to be one of those that ignores the deficiencies, that is your choice.<...>

Gypsy, I DO notice the deficiencies, thing is, I've playing these series way too long to worry too much about little bugs and ommissins. I expect them to be there in the first place (for endless reasons already mentioned in these forums, which I'm not going to repeat here). I also expect the developers to patch them up in due course, and I'm happy to say they have not disappointed me, so far. Call me fanboy, sheep, SI blinkers, I don't give a s**t.

I'm sorry to say, but your car anolagy is not a very good one, because if he car was meant to do 140mph (according to specs) and it only reaches 100mph, obviously there must something seriously wrong with it which shouldn't be too difficult to pinpoint and fix. The idea of the dealer refusing to give you a date he can fix it, is not feasable, since you could simply sue him or take the car back.

With a game of this magnitude and complexity, it's a different ball game (excuse the pun). The game is shipped without a money-back guarantee. Nowhere on the back of the box is written: if this game does not have enough realism to your liking, if you find too many long shots, if your defense in not up to scratch, etc, etc, we shall gladly fix these problems at no extra cost and even supply you with a precise date as to when this will be done. You purchase software at your own risk (but you knew that, hey?). I will stick my neck out and say further that, SI are under no obligation whatsoever to give you patches. But they still DO! Why? Because they listen to the community and want the best for them (call me fanboy, sheep etc.)

I will shush now, and go play my CL semi-final.

[flashback790]

Dry your eyes mate, its not worth crying about. Firstly you thought the game was still published by Eidos and now you're surprised that a huge corporation are interested in making money, they're not a charity. Anyway, I've said it before and I will say it again: the game is not broken, its pretty darn good. They won't give you a patch date cos they don't know when it will be ready. If they said 'first week of December' you can guarantee that the minute the clock ticked into the second week in December one of you cry babies would open a thread called 'SI lied, SEGA suck, wheres my patch'. And you probably don't know your tictacs from your tactics.

I just think SEGA should care that alot of people are fed up that the game isn't finished when it is released, if you went to a restaurant and they served you a meal that was half cooked, you'd complain wouldn't you, how is this different. Yes, the game isn't broken, but its people like you that constantly try to keep people like me quiet that are hurting the game, if people like me didn't bring up problems they wouldn't get fixed and you'd end up playing a game full of bugs and you would still have your head in the sand saying 'theres nothing wrong with it' I personally don't care when the patch is out aslong as it fixes the majority of the problems that you are blind to or are lucky enough to have the only copy of the game that is perfect. I personally like the orange tactics, they taste of oranges set in a 4-4-2 formation.

[Scott1990]

I think most of you should realize by now that all you have to do is buy the game in December, when it's mostly fixed.

[Lazylen]

At least the game will make a lovely X-mas present......

although i had the crashdump when loading a lot of leagues (almost all), im enjoying the game. With only 20 leagues selected im having a pretty cool game with Newcastle bringing them back to the PL. Havent had a single crash in that game so far.

[Zico]

This is the first year since 1998 that I have not dashed out and bought the game the second it was released. Reading all these comments, I'm rather glad...

[Gypsy_Roots]

Gypsy, I DO notice the deficiencies, thing is, I've playing these series way too long to worry too much about little bugs and ommissins. I expect them to be there in the first place (for endless reasons already mentioned in these forums, which I'm not going to repeat here). I also expect the developers to patch them up in due course, and I'm happy to say they have not disappointed me, so far. Call me fanboy, sheep, SI blinkers, I don't give a s**t.

I'm sorry to say, but your car anolagy is not a very good one, because if he car was meant to do 140mph (according to specs) and it only reaches 100mph, obviously there must something seriously wrong with it which shouldn't be too difficult to pinpoint and fix. The idea of the dealer refusing to give you a date he can fix it, is not feasable, since you could simply sue him or take the car back.

With a game of this magnitude and complexity, it's a different ball game (excuse the pun). The game is shipped without a money-back guarantee. Nowhere on the back of the box is written: if this game does not have enough realism to your liking, if you find too many long shots, if your defense in not up to scratch, etc, etc, we shall gladly fix these problems at no extra cost and even supply you with a precise date as to when this will be done. You purchase software at your own risk (but you knew that, hey?). I will stick my neck out and say further that, SI are under no obligation whatsoever to give you patches. But they still DO! Why? Because they listen to the community and want the best for them (call me fanboy, sheep etc.)

I will shush now, and go play my CL semi-final.

My point exactly! you do just expect the problems. We shouldnt have to, this is my point. We should have a game that doesnt require two fixes in the space of two months.

You choose to accept them I dont. That is what forums are for - to express your opinion!

As for ripping up my car analagy. Of course if you take a car dealership purchasing policy in detail there is many more rights available to you. However, the point remains that we are still receiving a product that is not 100% finished.

[djwilko6]

For people wanting an adult discussion about this subject, here is a much better thought out opening thread.