Story Ideas & Discussion Thread

[mark wilson27]

The database is running well so far. Just gotta tweek a few things then i'll start a few test runs

[tenthreeleader]

The database is running well so far. Just gotta tweek a few things then i'll start a few test runs

If by that you mean I won, then there's no need to tweak.

[mark wilson27]

Lol....ran around five seasons so far...just looking at why my FA and League Cup winners arent qualifying for Europe if they are from a lower league...

Gonna have look tomorrow at it...spent most of the day on the database

[mark wilson27]

Just had to redo the whole databse, for some reason it crashed on season six and wouldnt reload. Redone the database on fm10 and doing a few seasons

[leonavich]

hopefully attempt number 2 proves successful. Could it of been the file crashed during an save/autosave, corrupting it?

[mark wilson27]

The second attemp on fm10 has run well twice, started typing the story up now, but going to wait for alittle bit before posting

[Gricehead]

Going to be controversial here.

How do people feel about research? I read a fair few stories on here, and even some of the good ones scream and holler that the author hasn't done one iota of research into anything outside the football stadium. Maybe it's because I have a tendency to spend more time researching than actually playing, but this really irks me. In fact enough errors can completely spoil a story for me.

A lot of (none FMS) that I read requires you to suspend belief, but when you're writing about real things like football clubs, that's quite hard.

[tenthreeleader]

Going to be controversial here.

How do people feel about research? I read a fair few stories on here, and even some of the good ones scream and holler that the author hasn't done one iota of research into anything outside the football stadium. Maybe it's because I have a tendency to spend more time researching than actually playing, but this really irks me. In fact enough errors can completely spoil a story for me.

A lot of (none FMS) that I read requires you to suspend belief, but when you're writing about real things like football clubs, that's quite hard.

Personal preference. I did a rather large amount of research for Calcio to both create the character of Rob Ridgway and also his environment (down to life for Americans in Italy, including English-language theaters in the Venice area). I did the same to place Patty Myers in a plausible situation to meet Rob (the United States Department of State really does sponsor artists in the Venice biennale).

EDIT: Now that I think about it, there's more. Rob's house near Reading is in an actual location, my descriptions of the changing room at the Madejski Stadium and the manager's office were written after taking a 360-degree virtual tour on the Reading FC website, and his drive to the stadium and parking off Biscuitman Way were written after Google Earthing the area. Some of the off-pitch items take place in an actual location ("The Oracle" shopping center), and I've written about the copy of the Bayeux Tapestry located in Reading for a comment about Rob not being able to win at Stamford Bridge.

As it relates to football, I did research each club in the Premiership for Rob's first visit to each of their stadia. I too enjoy the research process. I used fan sites, Wikipedia (naturally) and Duncan Adams' footbalgroundguide.com to help in the process. among others. As one example, I must have spent two full days getting background on Cardiff's "Ayatollah" chant so I could write it into the story.

However, it should also be said that when you write in the FMS universe you are in essence creating your own place. I have no problems with writers who alter history, since none of us are real football managers anyway. I do coach young players so some of the thoughts RR has on how to play the game are my own, but that's as far as it goes.

Does that help?

[EvilDave]

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle on this one, and it depends very much on the type of story. Take my Azerbaijan Diary for instance - I know next to nothing about Azeri football other than the names of one or two teams, and Wikipedia informed me that the XML file I acquired had the third tier and disciplinary structures all wrong. I also realised a problem with disciplinary rules for my Dynamo story, but only after I started.

I consider my stories as stories first and foremost, so it's not my intention to lecture my readers through the state of affairs in Azerbaijan or Ukraine. However, if something specific comes up - Nakorov's trips to Tbilisi for example, or a rivalry which the average reader may not know about, then I consider it my responsibility to help them understand why it is important, whether by explaining the history or some other method. Details such as specific addresses, such as 10-3 has included in his stories, certainly make the story feel more realistic, but at the same if it was wrong I wouldn't know and it wouldn't detract from the writing.

The same goes for personalities - I've written Artem Milevskyi to be a thoroughly professional player wanting to test himself at a higher level. Of course I've no idea if this is true, but I would hope it doesn't matter too much. If I remember correctly, flipsix's epic 'Leaving The Past Behind' featured Joey Barton as a model professional, and nobody complained about the lack of realism there!

Ultimately I think it comes down to the author, as the vast majority of readers simply aren't going to know whether the details are real or imagined. I for one enjoy reading about football in other countries and so appreciate extra information, but at the same time detailed information about the geographical location of stadia and such like can seem unnecessary unless there is something out of the ordinary about them. It's a fine line, but I would say that if you enjoy the research process to go for it. I would be hesitant to start a story knowing nothing about the club I'm managing (yes, I'm aware of the contradiction here!), but it certainly wouldn't stop me reading had someone else done the same. How the detail is incorporated is far more important in my opinion.

[gavrenwick]

It has to be remembered that people write for their own enjoyment aswell as everyone elses. If doing shed loads of research isn't your idea of enjoyment that they won't do it, and rightly so.

[BenArsenal]

What they said. ^

Ultimately, stories are all fiction, and they can be as real or fake as the writers want them to be.

[Celtic_1967]

When I care to write Jumping Through Hoops as many of the locations as possible I have used so far have been real places. Descriptions of the inside of Lennoxtown (Celtic's Training ground) and some (but not all) of Celtic Park are fabricated because I've never seen them.

The apartment where Kowalski used to live was made up but the hotel he is in at the moment exists. Where locations do exist and I use them they are all from my memory so I can't promise factual accuracy in descriptions but they all exist in some way or other. I only invent locations when I have nothing 'real' that would work.

[Gricehead]

Interesting responses. As I said, I was being controversial. I guess anyone who is just writing purely for their own enjoyment should stop reading my posts here. If people are writing for readers, or writing to improve their writing, then my point stands.

I'm not talking about inch-perfect descriptions here or anything, mainly things that sort of stick out a mile, and just grate on me when I read.

Trying very hard not to pick out specific examples here, but lets say someone refers in passing to the "town centre" of xxxxx, when it's clear from the most perfunctory of googling that xxxxx is not a town, it's a residential suburb. Sure, it could have been the author's intention to rehash just that one piece of geography, and if that was the intention then fine, but if it's just sloppy research, no. Detracts from the believability of the story in my opinion.

Edit to say: Those writing in "obscure" locations can probably get away with it. Those writing in more known locations have to be more careful. Yanks writing about the UK, more so

[-Xenon-]

I do a little bit of research, just to make sure I don't get something horrendously obvious wrong. Having said that, that's only been for my latest one, the other one I winged it because I felt pretty confident that I wouldn't get someone from Ouagadougou coming in and saying I'd got it all wrong!

I agree to a certain extent that massively obvious stuff regarding UK locations could grate, but then I have sympathy because I wouldn't expect people from overseas to know (Because I guess there could be tricky ones, of the top of my head, what technically is or isn't a part of London or a surrounding county or vice versa). I wouldn't neccesarily want them to feel like they have to do research either.

I think given the nature of this place, and considering it's all for the simple enjoyment of it, you shouldn't feel like you have to research. I wouldn't neccesarily rate one story above another because it was more factually accurate.

[tenthreeleader]

Those writing in more known locations have to be more careful. Yanks writing about the UK, more so

That's sort of the whole point, isn't it?

But then I did the same research for Jeff Jarvis in Brazil and Phil Sharp in Glasgow, for work I have started but have on hiatus. I'm also doing that research for Matt Livingston, first in Newbridge and now in Kidderminster. I'd like to be taken more or less seriously.

Basically, I want to be able to meet my own standards in writing, which include writing as realistically as my research will allow me to do. It doesn't bother me, though, if others simply want to take poetic license.

[copperhorse21]

I'm sure I'm guilty as charged gricehead and I'm your not a fan of my writing inaccurate stuff...

I don't do a whole lot of research into the geography of the sites, sounds, and locations in my stories. To get around it, I describe things in more generic terms.

I can do all the research in the world, but until I'm in England watching a match, I'll have no idea what happens in the stands, especially at the more obscure grounds. And, because they don't often have the media support that the big clubs do, the work that's required to unearth factually correct descriptions of the training grounds and pitches isn't worth the delays in writing production. I've never spoken with a chairman, I've never spoken with an agent. I've never spoken with a professional player. I've never been in a stadium's dressing room. I've never sung a chant at a match. I've never coached a professional squad of players.

The mere fact that others who've never coached are writing stories about coaching is a willing suspension of disbelief that I have to overlook because, even though I've coached high school and amateur adult teams, many of the authors haven't. That is the nice thing about this forum. I get to write stories about things I'll never get the chance to do in real life. That's the allure of the fantasy.

[Makonnen]

The question of how to create a believable world is a deep one. The answer tends to be in the details, but that's the danger--if you hit a detail wrong, it sticks out like a sour note in a well-known tune.

I would hope that, when I do that, someone would [ahem, gently] point it out to me. I'm certainly sailing by the seat of my pants in much of 5m1w, no matter what research is done.

And, of course, the details can be wrong and the story can still work. Take Spiral of Fate. Everyone knows that ley lines don't help hold psychic links, only to increase the amount of spirit energy available for summoning. Sheesh.

[Dalbeider]

And, of course, the details can be wrong and the story can still work. Take Spiral of Fate. Everyone knows that ley lines don't help hold psychic links, only to increase the amount of spirit energy available for summoning. Sheesh.

Heh . The funny thing is, even with 90% of the story happening in a place I know quite well (and thus not really needing to research the environment that deeply), with random player and manager names (thus giving me the freedom to do whatever I like with them), and in a kind-of parallel universe with magic and stuff (which allows weird things to happen without breaking too many things in the way), I'm spending quite a bit of time on research. Just re-reading the relevant parts of the original visual novel, remembering the background of the relevant characters and events, researching the stories of the new Heroic Spirits and keeping everything as close to canon-compliant as I can takes a bit of effort. Not to mention my obsession with stupid and completely irrelevant details. Like, did anyone notice that, whenever the moon phase is mentioned, it matches exactly with the real moon phase on that date? Yeah, I wouldn't either...

Silliness aside, I'll agree with the majority here: it all depends on what you want to achieve. Aiming for realism is fine, but sometimes you just don't have the required knowledge to make a certain part of the story look "right". Take my (few) training sessions in Spiral, for example: I honestly have no idea about how an average Spanish third-tier team goes about daily training, and probably wouldn't have a reasonable way to find out unless I went there and watched myself, so I'm kind of playing by ear there. I try to shift the focus of the story away from things I don't know into things I can work with, so my likely mistakes don't stand out too much. Hence why there have been "few" training scenes so far. It will probably stay that way.

Then again, I like attention to detail. Basic knowledge about the places your team visits should be expected if it's going to come into play. I would probably be slightly miffed if someone placed Espanyol's stadium inside Barcelona, for example. Slightly biased there, though .

[Makonnen]

I will say that one of my sore spots is dialog. Stories where the chairman calls up and says "right, you have xx in the transfer budget and yy per week," or where the manager of big clubs calls up Messi and says "Lionel, we'd love for you to play with us" tend to turn me off--or, at least, shift my expectations around that particular story so I know to focus on the match descriptions or the off the field characters or whatever.

I do think that 10-3 was one of the first who I thought was great at taking an FM press conference and then recasting it in character and in more genuine dialog, although I will say as well that most people--and most athletic coaches especially--don't talk in grammatically correct, full sentences. Listen to the next press conference for it. But, when we read, we are actually looking for pseudo-real dialog, dialog that _reads_ real, but may not be what people actually say.

[tenthreeleader]

Interesting observation ... but I am playing RRRP on FM08, which doesn't have news conferences. Everything Ridgway says to the media is off the top of my head. I use the press in that save to draw the reader's attention to what the manager is thinking.

Remember too that Rat Pack is a diary. When you write in your diary, do you talk in fragments? Some do. It's written with occasionally omniscient knowledge to move story arcs, but in the end you'll always get Rob's thoughts. And that means he's going to make himself look and sound as good as he possibly can. That's why he's so nauseating to some Grumpy voters

[mametz1536]

I will say that one of my sore spots is dialog. Stories where the chairman calls up and says "right, you have xx in the transfer budget and yy per week," or where the manager of big clubs calls up Messi and says "Lionel, we'd love for you to play with us" tend to turn me off--or, at least, shift my expectations around that particular story so I know to focus on the match descriptions or the off the field characters or whatever.

I do think that 10-3 was one of the first who I thought was great at taking an FM press conference and then recasting it in character and in more genuine dialog, although I will say as well that most people--and most athletic coaches especially--don't talk in grammatically correct, full sentences. Listen to the next press conference for it. But, when we read, we are actually looking for pseudo-real dialog, dialog that _reads_ real, but may not be what people actually say.

I think that this hits the nail on the head. For me the question i constantly ask myself is, just what would they say in that situation in real life. I don't know about you but just listening to conversations around me, in a cafe or at a bus-stop but there is an awful amount of repartition and talking about nothing in particular. The other night i listened to a conversation in my back garden with 3 teenagers who talked for 45 minutes about applying for jobs saying the same things over again and again! Of course you can't do that in a story, but conversations are rarely done in 'Kings' english and often people talk over each other.

I have never been to Switzerland so all my details are from research. I do bend the truth to add poetic licence to the story. For instance the 'Anker' collection is actually in Berne not Winterthur but i wanted them to go on day trip not a weekend away!

I try to make it as factual as possible, but sometimes i'm out of my depth with knowing how a Chairman would act or what would be asked at a press conference. I can only hope that when it is read that it is enjoyable and paints a picture of a world that is believable if sometimes a little flawed.

[leonavich]

For me personally, realism is in the eye of the reader. I read a lot of stories on here, and whether they are based on realism (settings, conversation or personalities), or fiction in every sense, I immerse myself in the story and imagine it to be real. Creativity of the mind can make anything believable as long as you enjoy it. Sure realism can be an important aspect, but some of the best stories I find are using real places or situations with artificial surrounds.

I think its all up to personal choice and the writing style that makes for a good story.

[Mark Snellink]

For me it varies tremendously, I've never written the same way twice in any of my stories. Some stories I do extensive research, like my new attempt (Jesús Wept in Belgium) will be more person-focused than I've ever done and I've spent a lot of time looking at maps of the area around Eupen and reading about the places and things that I plan to write about. Try to take over the world (with lots of umlauts that make my browser go back a page when I do it in quick reply) started out with more personality, but due to the length of the challenge and my desire to move it along, a lot of the detail has vanished in the later chapters, something that I do regret a bit.

[tenthreeleader]

due to the length of the challenge and my desire to move it along, a lot of the detail has vanished in the later chapters, something that I do regret a bit.

This is the reason I started the "Unwanted" save. It's designed to be less heavy than Rat Pack and frankly it's a hell of a lot easier to write. I

I have one story that I do need to keep a flow chart to track so I don't inadvertently drop story arcs, and one that allows me to play more FM while still having fun writing. The biggest challenge with Rat Pack at the moment is maintaining the energy I need to keep moving the arcs. Season 4 is in planning at the present time with one overriding major arc but there are a ton of loose ends to tie up between January and May in the present season before I can even think about that.

[copperhorse21]

(snip) ...Season 4 is in planning at the present time with one overriding major arc but there are a ton of loose ends to tie up between January and May in the present season before I can even think about that.

Will this season be started with a new thread, similar to the community discussion threads when they exceed a certain number of pages and/or posts?

[tenthreeleader]

I haven't decided that yet. Actually, it might not be a bad idea, but my thought is that since it's the same story, it might be better included on the same thread. The raw size of the thread at this point makes it hard to pick up from the beginning. I had always thought that if Rigdway ever changed clubs I would start a new thread -- and still might. I do wonder if the thread is too daunting at the present time, since I'm nearly to 1,000 of my own posts to it.

I'd really like Terkleton's thoughts on this, since he and I have discussed this before. Or anyone else's who cares to chip in, for that matter.

[copperhorse21]

My vote is that each season should be its own thread.

[copperhorse21]

I'm amending it...I think that each season that includes more than 50 author posts needs a new thread with the following exceptions: it's an official challenge or it's a sign-up takes takes longer than a season to resolve a winner.

[Makonnen]

I think it's up to an author to decide what a "narrative unit" is. For 5m1w, I am pretty committed to one thread = tenure at one team. I think. For now. Maybe.

[tenthreeleader]

I think it's up to an author to decide what a "narrative unit" is. For 5m1w, I am pretty committed to one thread = tenure at one team. I think. For now. Maybe.

Perhaps.

[Mark Snellink]

I think it's up to an author to decide what a "narrative unit" is. For 5m1w, I am pretty committed to one thread = tenure at one team. I think. For now. Maybe.

Perhaps.

Possibly.

[Mark Snellink]

I was considering starting a new thread once I leave Sweden behind with my challenge. That way, I can kind of summarize the first part of the challenge and perhaps pick up some more readers for the journey to Switzerland and Italy.

[gavrenwick]

Generic question for anyone who has created a character for a story on here; have you ever created a character with someone in mind when you did? Or based it on someone else?

[BenArsenal]

Generic question for anyone who has created a character for a story on here; have you ever created a character with someone in mind when you did? Or based it on someone else?

Yes. I mean, they make good reference points.

[chesterfan2]

Generic question for anyone who has created a character for a story on here; have you ever created a character with someone in mind when you did? Or based it on someone else?

Lucy in 'Talk To Frank' was written just after seeing Gwyneth Paltrow in 'IronMan'.

Does that count ?

[gavrenwick]

Of course.

I'm just interested is all, wondering what/who make people create certain characters. Seeing as they are integral to the story, it interests me no end.

[BenArsenal]

It could be a couple of ways.

1) You already have a character in mind, and that someone whom you base it on happens to have similar characteristics/experiences etc to your planned character.

2) That particular someone is an inspiration to your character.

There could be many other reasons too.

[tenthreeleader]

Generic question for anyone who has created a character for a story on here; have you ever created a character with someone in mind when you did? Or based it on someone else?

Nearly every character I've created in Rat Pack is at least loosely based on someone.

[tenthreeleader]

I'm just interested is all, wondering what/who make people create certain characters. Seeing as they are integral to the story, it interests me no end.

It depends on the character. The more 'intimate' characters can be harder to write but easier to create. For example, there's no way I could post here without Rob Ridgway being my signature character. He isn't me -- but he's part me. Therefore he's easy to create but a devil to write sometimes. Patty Myers is based on an actual person as well. Emiliani's character was based on an amalgam of news and media people I've known over my career and some characters are defined by the game engine.

Other characters in that story have varying levels of inspiration, but are growing as I write them. Alba Fulton, Hardcastle and Sidney Richmond (who is my favorite character to write in any of my stories to this point) did not have specific inspirations to limit development so I've been able to free-wheel in my head as I write them, which makes them a ton of fun. I always think of DCI Barnaby from "Midsomer Murders" whenever I write Fowler.

Matt Livingston, on the other hand, is the part of me that Rob Ridgway is not, if that makes any sense. Since so many of the players at Kildare are newgens I could invent them as I went, and all the fictional characters are made out of whole cloth. A different kind of writing.

[Makonnen]

Utter mixture.

One of the reasons I seeded 5m1w with names from a ton of references was to have character sketches pre-drawn for some people. So, Jimmy McNulty will behave vaguely akin to Jimmy McNulty.

But those are all peripheral and are characters that I understand may or may not ever make it into the stories, since they need to cross paths in the game to do so, something that is not guaranteed to happen.

For the main characters, as much as any fictional creation can be, they are purely invented. Ayida, Leti, all of the managers. Part of the challenge has been figuring out what differentiated them and then trying to work backwards from there. If I were to do it again, I would make them all American--their national backgrounds are a bit of a joke in the writing, not referenced often or authentically enough. But I never knew that Terry would be a drunk--or what kind of drunk--until it happened, didn't see Makonnen as this reserved type, etc.

[chesterfan2]

It depends on the character. The more 'intimate' characters can be harder to write but easier to create. For example, there's no way I could post here without Rob Ridgway being my signature character. He isn't me -- but he's part me. Therefore he's easy to create but a devil to write sometimes. Patty Myers is based on an actual person as well. Emiliani's character was based on an amalgam of news and media people I've known over my career and some characters are defined by the game engine.

Other characters in that story have varying levels of inspiration, but are growing as I write them. Alba Fulton, Hardcastle and Sidney Richmond (who is my favorite character to write in any of my stories to this point) did not have specific inspirations to limit development so I've been able to free-wheel in my head as I write them, which makes them a ton of fun. I always think of DCI Barnaby from "Midsomer Murders" whenever I write Fowler.

Matt Livingston, on the other hand, is the part of me that Rob Ridgway is not, if that makes any sense. Since so many of the players at Kildare are newgens I could invent them as I went, and all the fictional characters are made out of whole cloth. A different kind of writing.

Just to think 10-3. I admired you and your work, until I found out you watch Midsomer Murders.................

[tenthreeleader]

Just to think 10-3. I admired you and your work, until I found out you watch Midsomer Murders.................

Ah, another illusion shattered, eh? Always love a good whodunit.

[Sammy Kay]

It depends on the character. The more 'intimate' characters can be harder to write but easier to create. For example, there's no way I could post here without Rob Ridgway being my signature character. He isn't me -- but he's part me. Therefore he's easy to create but a devil to write sometimes. Patty Myers is based on an actual person as well. Emiliani's character was based on an amalgam of news and media people I've known over my career and some characters are defined by the game engine.

Other characters in that story have varying levels of inspiration, but are growing as I write them. Alba Fulton, Hardcastle and Sidney Richmond (who is my favorite character to write in any of my stories to this point) did not have specific inspirations to limit development so I've been able to free-wheel in my head as I write them, which makes them a ton of fun. I always think of DCI Barnaby from "Midsomer Murders" whenever I write Fowler.

Matt Livingston, on the other hand, is the part of me that Rob Ridgway is not, if that makes any sense. Since so many of the players at Kildare are newgens I could invent them as I went, and all the fictional characters are made out of whole cloth. A different kind of writing.

Understand that this is quite true... but of course. Very difficult to not write about past experiences and people in ones life. Interesting to read your take on others as well. All good.

[Mark Snellink]

Check out this new challenge I put together

My characters are drawn up from scratch, though I haven't done much in the way of character writing.

[BobBev]

What a superb challenge idea Mark. I need to file that one away for the future.

[Dalbeider]

Check out this new challenge I put together

My characters are drawn up from scratch, though I haven't done much in the way of character writing.

Love it. If I can find the time (just started a save with the good ol' Bobby Robson Challenge (hi BobBev! )) I may just go for it. Ajax style, of course!

[BenArsenal]

Challenge of the Year.

[tenthreeleader]

Looks good, Mark. Perhaps a bit snarky in record keeping in places but it's really a terrific idea!

[Mark Snellink]

Looks good, Mark. Perhaps a bit snarky in record keeping in places but it's really a terrific idea!

What do you mean by "a bit snarky in record keeping"? (I actually don't understand what that refers to)

Thanks for the support all

[Dalbeider]

What do you mean by "a bit snarky in record keeping"? (I actually don't understand what that refers to)

Thanks for the support all

I guess he's talking about all the bookkeeping you have to do to make sure that you're within the required percentages of XXX players in your squad and such.

I've just started a save with NK Zagreb, and yes, it's a bit of a pain having to check the history of every single player to see if they arrived at the club before being 19 or not, but at least it only has to be done once at each club, and then work from there with each new signing or sale.

I'll post something in the thread once I finally get the game going for good. I think I'll need at least a full season to fulfill the second requirement of the Ajax way, though, so I guess any results obtained before that don't count for the challenge, right?