Gaining British nationality?

Here's the situation:

Gretna in Scotland purchased a Kyrgystani player (other nationality Kazakh), then two seasons later i bought him for my team in England (work permit required). On the player's personal screen it stated he's had 754/1825 days in scotland and 296/1825 days in England so far.

Now as i continue through my game, days spent in England increases whilst those in Scotland are static, unsuprisingly. However, my confusion stems from the fact that there is no such thing as seperate Scottish or English nationalities, it all falls under British nationality.

So if i keep this player until he reaches the 1825 day mark, within the game he would be able to gain English second nationality and potentially play for them (although in this example the player is already capped for Kyrgystan).

However in theory, should he not gain British as a second nationality, which then gives him the right to play for any of the UK teams? And if this is the case, should his days in Scotland be added to those England, otherwise in theory he could spend a total of 7296 days (just under 20 years!) spread over the four UK countries and still not be eligible for British nationality!?

Anyway i hope that makes sense.

That's right, but I imagine it's too complicated. Imagine the uproar when players nationalised in England get capped for Northern Ireland!

Yea thats why the British Nations IRL have a rule that any player will not be capped unless they have a Parent, Grand-parent or close family memeber with that Nationality.

Yea thats why the British Nations IRL have a rule that any player will not be capped unless they have a Parent, Grand-parent or close family memeber with that Nationality.

Yeah I was going to say, there are certain rules on how to approach a player for your country.

Thanks for the replies.

Yea thats why the British Nations IRL have a rule that any player will not be capped unless they have a Parent, Grand-parent or close family memeber with that Nationality.

Nice info, never knew that. So i guess thats why players like Cudicini and Almunia haven't been capped for England even though there was talk of them playing?

Yeah I was going to say, there are certain rules on how to approach a player for your country.

Do you happen to know any of the other criteria? i'm quite interested in this as its something i'd never really thought about until the other day.

Thanks for the replies.

Nice info, never knew that. So i guess thats why players like Cudicini and Almunia haven't been capped for England even though there was talk of them playing?

Alumunia cant play for england because he hasnt been in england long enough yet to get citizenship

People can get citizenship after being in a country for however many years. Look at Almunia, he wants to play for England because there is no chance he can play for Spain. I think he can get his by the end of the season or next season

Do you happen to know any of the other criteria? i'm quite interested in this as its something i'd never really thought about until the other day.

Say a player plays for Ivory Coast Under 21's then if he moved to England and gained citizenship and someone in his family was half English or something then he could play for England if he wanted to and if England ever called him up. If this player played for the 1st team though then he wouldn't be able to. As for other rules, I know they're are more rules but I just don't know them.

I think it would be useful to have British nationality in the game in the same way as Basque nationality is, for example. An English player would have English first nationality, just like a Basque player would have Spanish first nationality. But he would also have British listed under 'other nationalities', just as a Basque player would have Basque listed there. The same would go for Scottish and Welsh and Northern Irish. A naturalised player would simply accrue British as an 'other nationality', and then the agreement about which home nation he could play for would kick in.

I think it would be useful to have British nationality in the game in the same way as Basque nationality is, for example. An English player would have English first nationality, just like a Basque player would have Spanish first nationality. But he would also have British listed under 'other nationalities', just as a Basque player would have Basque listed there. The same would go for Scottish and Welsh and Northern Irish. A naturalised player would simply accrue British as an 'other nationality', and then the agreement about which home nation he could play for would kick in.

That would be unfair seeing as the British countries would have a huge advantage over other countries.

That would be unfair seeing as the British countries would have a huge advantage over other countries.

What advantage? I'm not proposing anything other than the realistic reflection of British nationality as a second nationality.

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What advantage? I'm not proposing anything other than the realistic reflection of British nationality as a second nationality.

Hang on, I may have got the wrong end of the stick. Are you implying that you can get a choice of which British team to play for, or like Basque, it just being 'there' to show you are British?

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Hang on, I may have got the wrong end of the stick. Are you implying that you can get a choice of which British team to play for, or like Basque, it just being 'there' to show you are British?

There would be no choice involved. A player would simply get British nationality. And then the rule mentioned earlier would kick in. I'm referring to the agreement between the home nations about nobody playing for them without a relative from that nation. So no advantage would be gained. It would just mean that you wouldn't have the unrealistic situation of, say, Julio Bloggsio of Argentina gaining Welsh nationality while at TNS, for example. He would gain British nationality, which is what he would get in real life.

I suppose you could make the argument that I'm asking for a cosmetic change, though.

What advantage? I'm not proposing anything other than the realistic reflection of British nationality as a second nationality.

British nationality technically only applies, in the football sense, to naturalised people (i.e. people who gain nationality after moving here).

If you were born in Scotland, you would have a British passport yes, but you would be Scottish, and only able to play for the Scottish national side. (Unless of course, you met the Grand-Parent rule).

That is the problem - how do you differentiate between born British and naturalised British in the game (because as I said the rules are different)?

You wouldnt be Naturalised British but in the Country of your Employment, yes you have to Have a British Passport, but you would only be able to appear for your country of birth or the country you naturalised in!

On a side note i did read in paper other day that Sven whilst in charge of England wanted 3 foreign players to play for England through the above rule i can name two but cant remember the 3rd Steed Malbranc and Cudicini.

But i am yet to see a player change from 'Considering citizenship' to becoming a English Citizen.

You wouldnt be Naturalised British but in the Country of your Employment, yes you have to Have a British Passport, but you would only be able to appear for your country of birth or the country you naturalised in!

On a side note i did read in paper other day that Sven whilst in charge of England wanted 3 foreign players to play for England through the above rule i can name two but cant remember the 3rd Steed Malbranc and Cudicini.

But i am yet to see a player change from 'Considering citizenship' to becoming a English Citizen.

Yes but should he have played them then the rest of the home nations would have caused a riot because of this written rule where no player who is born outside of the United Kingdom without a British relative may play for a British National side.

Not sure if you where to marry a Scot if it would affect it because i know Berti Voghts wanted to play Lorenzo Amoruso and he has a Scottish Wife but again it never happened and i suspect this rule may have stopped him.

British nationality technically only applies, in the football sense, to naturalised people (i.e. people who gain nationality after moving here).

If you were born in Scotland, you would have a British passport yes, but you would be Scottish, and only able to play for the Scottish national side. (Unless of course, you met the Grand-Parent rule).

That is the problem - how do you differentiate between born British and naturalised British in the game (because as I said the rules are different)?

Agree with this, if everyone is given a 'British' second nationality that entitles them to play for any country, you might have weird instances of players with no real connection opting to play for one of the other teams.

For naturalised players, though, it's not such an issue. I don't think it's happened often, the only instance I can think of is Pat van den Hauwe who played for Everton and Wales in the 80's. He was no more Welsh than your average Belgian, but got a UK passport and opted to play for Wales apparently because a few of his Everton team mates did.

Having said that, the existing way the game deals with it is just the easy option. Going back to the OP, of couse time in Scotland and England should be added together for entitlement to a passport, save the suggestion above, the game simply can't deal with it as it stands.

sorry about my misunderstanding ill take a quote wheni looked up the rule in deltail

These general rules apply to all countries, although there is room for differences between countries because national team eligibility depends on nationality or citizenship, which, in turn, hinges on a particular country’s own nationality or citizenship laws.

The national teams of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are, however, a special case because these four “home countries” are part of one national state, the United Kingdom. There is no such thing as English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish citizenship.

The associations of these four countries entered an agreement regarding international eligibility in 1993 which provides that a player holding a British passport is eligible to play for the country of his birth, the country of the birth of either of his natural parents or the country of birth of any of his natural grandparents. If the player, his natural parents and his natural grandparents were born outside the U.K., he may play for the home country of his choice. Our understanding is that once a player has played for one of the home countries, even if it is only a friendly match, the 1993 agreement precludes him playing for another home country. The FIFA rule change for players under 21 must be followed in the U.K., however. Under U.K. law, a player (or anyone, for that matter) who was born abroad becomes eligible for a British passport after five years of lawful residence in the country, and he thus becomes eligible to play for one of the home countries provided he has not played for another national side in official competition.

That rule is more like it Wardog. If say Amoruso or Almunia took a UK passport, they could play for any of the home counties of their choice.

I suspect the reason it doesn't happen is a) they're not good enough and b) it would cause a massive uproar if foreigners were put in the side ahead of domestic players. Unless, I guess, they were substantially better, but that's not likely to happen or they'd be capped for their own countries....

British citizenship should really only be used in the game for players born in the UK, but not in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland - i.e. the Isle of Mann and Channel Islands - because they can choose which nation to play for.

That rule is more like it Wardog. If say Amoruso or Almunia took a UK passport, they could play for any of the home counties of their choice.

I suspect the reason it doesn't happen is a) they're not good enough and b) it would cause a massive uproar if foreigners were put in the side ahead of domestic players. Unless, I guess, they were substantially better, but that's not likely to happen or they'd be capped for their own countries....

Ill bring back a bit of the past. Towards the end of Craig Brown's regin as Scotland manager most players where English with a Scottish Grand parent. Thank god thats not the case now. We where the origional England B team lol.

Agree with this, if everyone is given a 'British' second nationality that entitles them to play for any country, you might have weird instances of players with no real connection opting to play for one of the other teams.

No, that isn't true. It would be coded in so that each player with British nationality could only play for the country of their FIRST nationality i.e. English, Scottish.

No, that isn't true. It would be coded in so that each player with British nationality could only play for the country of their FIRST nationality i.e. English, Scottish.

I'm confused now - what would be the point of it then? I thought the idea was so that foreign players would gain a British nationality rather than a specific one?

I'm confused now - what would be the point of it then? I thought the idea was so that foreign players would gain a British nationality rather than a specific one?

If you look at one of my previous posts, I pointed out that it would largely be cosmetic. With regard to players gaining nationality, it is unrealistic for them to become English or Scottish or whatever. Whether it's football or not, it is still unrealistic. So yeah, the point is for them to become British. But there are rules in place that could be put into practice in the game that would stop you having silly situations like someone who gained British nationality in England suddenly deciding he wants to play in Northern Ireland.

Im sure if your not fully english you can gain a nationality from another nation in britain so if your half english and ghanian if you were to move to scotland you could eventually play for scotland?

And that if your foreign playing in britain you will have to gain the nationalities for each different country?

British citizenship should really only be used in the game for players born in the UK, but not in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland - i.e. the Isle of Mann and Channel Islands - because they can choose which nation to play for.

Good point. How is this currently represented in the game - are they just assumed to have English nationality?

I'm more interested in citizenship for non-EU internationals who are borderline for a WP.

For instance, a fringe Jamaican International plays in Scotland for two years, and then England for three years. During his time in England he loses his International place and can't a WP for a contract extension. But shouldn't he be eligible for a British passport after 5 years in the UK? I have seen it happen in the game when a non-EU player doesn't get a UK passport after a Scottish/English split in their career.

Here's the situation:

Gretna in Scotland purchased a Kyrgystani player (other nationality Kazakh), then two seasons later i bought him for my team in England (work permit required). On the player's personal screen it stated he's had 754/1825 days in scotland and 296/1825 days in England so far.

Now as i continue through my game, days spent in England increases whilst those in Scotland are static, unsuprisingly. However, my confusion stems from the fact that there is no such thing as seperate Scottish or English nationalities, it all falls under British nationality.

So if i keep this player until he reaches the 1825 day mark, within the game he would be able to gain English second nationality and potentially play for them (although in this example the player is already capped for Kyrgystan).

However in theory, should he not gain British as a second nationality, which then gives him the right to play for any of the UK teams? And if this is the case, should his days in Scotland be added to those England, otherwise in theory he could spend a total of 7296 days (just under 20 years!) spread over the four UK countries and still not be eligible for British nationality!?

Anyway i hope that makes sense.

what are you on about scotland and england are two diffrent countrys ect look at aiden mcgeady he was scottish but had a family member from irland so he plays for them.so the guy you have can only gain citzien ship with england if he plays there long enogh it does not mean he could play for scotland.

The scenario mentioned in the first post is a clear example of where the game goes wrong. If a player spends 2 years in Scotland and 3 years in England, then in real life they would be eligible for British citizenship and, according to the rule quoted above (and especially the case of Pat Van Den Hauwe, who played for Wales despite gaining British citizenship by playing in England), would be able to choose to play for any of the 4 parts of the UK. If this happened in the game they wouldn't be able to gain citizenship until they've spent a full 5 years in only one of the parts of the UK.

This definitely needs to be programmed realistically in the game.

The scenario mentioned in the first post is a clear example of where the game goes wrong. If a player spends 2 years in Scotland and 3 years in England, then in real life they would be eligible for British citizenship and, according to the rule quoted above (and especially the case of Pat Van Den Hauwe, who played for Wales despite gaining British citizenship by playing in England), would be able to choose to play for any of the 4 parts of the UK. If this happened in the game they wouldn't be able to gain citizenship until they've spent a full 5 years in only one of the parts of the UK.

This definitely needs to be programmed realistically in the game.

Thats fair to say but the simple fact is that it wouldn't happen in football today. And with the game being simply that, a game you would find players getting capped for the other British nations when there is no chance that anything like that would happen if the situation occured in real life. Sure it happened once quite some time ago but it wouldn't happen now.

You can be sure that if it was put in that way you would have players born in Brazil, playing in England who are getting capped for Wales which just wouldn't be right

As Stinger said it doesn't happen that way anymore. There is some kind of agreement that although players gain British nationality they will only play for a home nations national side that they have a close relative or partner from.

If you look at the number of foreign nationals who come from the EU to premiership clubs in their pre-teens it means that in todays world (if they chose to) the likes of Wales and N.Ireland could realisticly call up entire teams of uncapped players at Premiership clubs. But no one has.

I know the likes of Ireland, Italy, Spain and Portugal will get mentioned, at some point in this thread. But it's worth noting that in recent years that nationality laws accross western Europe have changed quite drasticly to stop passport births. For example a child born in Ireland doesn't qualify for an Irish passport unless a parent is Irish, British or the parents have been living in Ireland for five years. However alongside Italy Irish nationality can be passed on indefinately through the generations providing each generation applys for a passport. This is why there are so many Uruguay/Italian mixes with regards to passports. In a similar way because of large migrant popularions Spain and Portugal are willing to give their descendants the oppertunity to 'return home'. So, in all of these cases there is little fuss about one of these folks playing for a national side.

If Wales started to fill their team with eighteen year old Mexicans from Arsenal and nineteen year old Nigerians from Newcastle who don't even know the national anthem, at the expense of Welsh born and bred there would be a backlash and a half.

If Wales started to fill their team with eighteen year old Mexicans from Arsenal and nineteen year old Nigerians from Newcastle who don't even know the national anthem

In fairness it seems that none of our player know the anthem anyway!

So I think what we agree is you can only be English Scottish or Welsh if you were born in that country. You can also play for the national team if you have a close relative.

However if you are were not born in the UK have no british family then you can only gain British nationality and therefore not play for any of the home nations.

Unless we ever get a britsh olympics team but thats a whole differnt argument

Here's the situation:

Gretna in Scotland purchased a Kyrgystani player (other nationality Kazakh), then two seasons later i bought him for my team in England (work permit required). On the player's personal screen it stated he's had 754/1825 days in scotland and 296/1825 days in England so far.

Now as i continue through my game, days spent in England increases whilst those in Scotland are static, unsuprisingly. However, my confusion stems from the fact that there is no such thing as seperate Scottish or English nationalities, it all falls under British nationality.

So if i keep this player until he reaches the 1825 day mark, within the game he would be able to gain English second nationality and potentially play for them (although in this example the player is already capped for Kyrgystan).

However in theory, should he not gain British as a second nationality, which then gives him the right to play for any of the UK teams? And if this is the case, should his days in Scotland be added to those England, otherwise in theory he could spend a total of 7296 days (just under 20 years!) spread over the four UK countries and still not be eligible for British nationality!?

Anyway i hope that makes sense.

There would appear to be two issues here...

On is the work permit issue...

If a non EU player signs for 1,000 days for Scotland and 825 for England and then a Italian club makes a bid for him... in theory they should be making a bid on an British (2nd Nationality) (therefore not using up their 1 non EU player slot) but this wouldn't be the case for two reasons.

1. - The decisions of players taking up nationality/citizenship doesn't work too well in FM08

2. - The connection between England Scotland/Wales and Northern Ireland isn't quite there.

The second issue is the issue of once he get's is Brisish Nationality, can he play international football for any of the four nations.

The last person to do this was John Barnes (Jamician, Jamican parents and Grandparents) but since the "gentlemans agreement" between for 4 FA's came in (1993 i think someone has linked to it above) nobody has done this.

The issue should be wether this gentlemans agreement should be included in the game, or the fact it's not written into the laws of the game that it should be excluded.

Interestingly, chess does not go by the same restrictions as football - Jacob Aagaard and Ketevan Arakhamia-Grant are now both members of the Scotland team despite not being qualified by birth or family; their qualifications are residential ones.

100% correct. the game should allow for totalling up any of the home nations to allow a player to gain British nationality with a preference for the country to which he spent the longest time. Eg. 750 days in England and 1075 in Scotland player would gain Scottish nationality. but he would gain in as soon as the total accumulated in any home nation reflected a total amount of 1825 days required.

As for the Almunia - England thing. He couldn't play for England cos he has no English family in him, no parents, grandparents, etc. that's what the guidelines use to allow you to play for a specific nation unless you're born there. As for Almunia he doesn't match any of these.

what are you on about scotland and england are two diffrent countrys ect look at aiden mcgeady he was scottish but had a family member from irland so he plays for them.so the guy you have can only gain citzien ship with england if he plays there long enogh it does not mean he could play for scotland.

In future please give the people who have taken the time to give well thought out replies the decency of actually reading their posts. If you had done this, you would have realised how needless your comment was and prevented yourself from looking foolish.

Just to clarify, i am fully aware that England/Scotland/Wales/N.Ireland are countries and nationalities in their own right. But in terms of citizenship and gaining a new nationality, it all falls under British nationality.

Ninjamark: There would appear to be two issues here...

A couple of good points. As with my example, the player is non-EU so the issue of gaining a second EU nationality is quite important in terms of work permits and other nations such as Italy who have strict non-EU player rules.

So maybe within the game, a non-EU player can gain British nationality from the total days spent within any of the four UK nations. The purpose of gaining this nationality would be purely to be counted as an EU player and not for any international team eligibility. When the player reaches the 1825 day mark, a message along the lines of this could appear.

"After spending the required time in the UK, Player X has decided to accept British nationality. However, under an agreement between the home nations, this player is unable to play internationally for any of these countries."

I know this certainly isn't a perfect solution, but could be one step towards improving realism in this area?

I would suggest having the same system as at the moment, but any player who has English, Scottish, Welsh or N.Irish "days" building up should have a sum of those days underneath building towards their British citizenship. Then the player can get EU status when his British "days" reaches 1825, and he can be eligible to play for an individual national team when his English, Scottish, Welsh or N.Irish "days" individually reaches 1825. IMO that would be very easy to implement and entirely realistic. Actually I can't see why that was not included by SI in previous versions, maybe its such a rare occurence that no bug tester has ever noticed it!

Alumunia cant play for england because he hasnt been in england long enough yet to get citizenship

Almunia has, and IIRC, he has an English wife, and is theoretically eligble to play for England.

Almunia has, and IIRC, he has an English wife, and is theoretically eligble to play for England.

Almunia signed for Arsenal on 14 July 2004 - not 5 years ago just yet. Although, indeed, he has an English wife

In future please give the people who have taken the time to give well thought out replies the decency of actually reading their posts. If you had done this, you would have realised how needless your comment was and prevented yourself from looking foolish.

Just to clarify, i am fully aware that England/Scotland/Wales/N.Ireland are countries and nationalities in their own right. But in terms of citizenship and gaining a new nationality, it all falls under British nationality.

A couple of good points. As with my example, the player is non-EU so the issue of gaining a second EU nationality is quite important in terms of work permits and other nations such as Italy who have strict non-EU player rules.

So maybe within the game, a non-EU player can gain British nationality from the total days spent within any of the four UK nations. The purpose of gaining this nationality would be purely to be counted as an EU player and not for any international team eligibility. When the player reaches the 1825 day mark, a message along the lines of this could appear.

"After spending the required time in the UK, Player X has decided to accept British nationality. However, under an agreement between the home nations, this player is unable to play internationally for any of these countries."

I know this certainly isn't a perfect solution, but could be one step towards improving realism in this area?

This is were i think it should be... Lets face it, the FA's of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland won't be doing anything anytime soon in order to bring attention of their "Britishness" to FIFA, i mean look at the whole Olympics think for 2012.

Qualifying for your British Passport should never ever allow a non EU-national to have a choice of which country in the UK to play for, this is unrealistic and will never (probably) happen. Perhaps you can qualify through naturalisation for one country in the United Kingdom, but i believe you should definatly have a choice.

Apart from being Born in Northen Ireland - where you can have your choice of wether to play for Northern Ireland or the Republic, thanks to some nifty political work by the UK and Irish MP's/TD's.

I've reported this ommision to SI, but i don't think it will make the 09 box release, perhaps in the patch?