So the game isn't fixed...

But isn't it funny how key fixtures throw up a heavy home defeat?

But isn't it funny how key fixtures throw up a heavy home defeat?

It's your tactics

But seriously - is it unreasonable that a game against close rival is one in which they are really motivated and play well?

The frustration for me is trying to work out how to get my players fired up in the same way. I've been trying to use the 'Team Talk Feedback' from the assistant manager but it really gives nothing - 100% 'Nothing specific noted'.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Roger Hunt:

The frustration for me is trying to work out how to get my players fired up in the same way. I've been trying to use the 'Team Talk Feedback' from the assistant manager but it really gives nothing - 100% 'Nothing specific noted'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you tried Wolfsong's Guide?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

But isn't it funny how key fixtures throw up a heavy home defeat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it all depends what you are doing to win the game. If you go all out with the same tactic as you would use in any other match then you have no one but yourself to blame.

To say that the game is broken because you can't win one game is very short-sighted of you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Roger Hunt:

But seriously - is it unreasonable that a game against close rival is one in which they are really motivated and play well? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course not - however it is rather frustrating when...

1) you have an 1-0 away goal advantage going into the second leg of a cup tie

2) your own teams morale is almost unerringly superb

3) your opposition is near the bottom of the league when you are almost top

4) you have only lost one match at home before that time, which was a 1-0

...and yet...

5) your opponent has three on target and scores them all, you dominate the game but only score two.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

But isn't it funny how key fixtures throw up a heavy home defeat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it all depends what you are doing to win the game. If you go all out with the same tactic as you would use in any other match then you have no one but yourself to blame.

To say that the game is broken because you can't win one game is very short-sighted of you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do think some people have an astonishingly rose-tinted view of the game.

Are you suggesting it is a WEAKNESS on my part to use a tried and tested tactic against weaker opposition and expect to win?

I'm yet to see Sir Alex and Arsene deliberately NOT play a successful tactic in key matches.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are you suggesting it is a WEAKNESS on my part to use a tried and tested tactic against weaker opposition and expect to win? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but it is to suggest that the game is fixed because you dont win though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Are you suggesting it is a WEAKNESS on my part to use a tried and tested tactic against weaker opposition and expect to win? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is if you dont pay attention to the oppositions individual players. Its succesful against weaker teams, I'm sure that Wenger and Fergie have different tactics for playing Bolton and Chelsea.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

But isn't it funny how key fixtures throw up a heavy home defeat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it all depends what you are doing to win the game. If you go all out with the same tactic as you would use in any other match then you have no one but yourself to blame.

To say that the game is broken because you can't win one game is very short-sighted of you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do think some people have an astonishingly rose-tinted view of the game.

Are you suggesting it is a WEAKNESS on my part to use a tried and tested tactic against weaker opposition and expect to win?

I'm yet to see Sir Alex and Arsene deliberately NOT play a successful tactic in key matches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson may play similar tactics in successive matches but they will alter small parts of that formations. That may include playing a more defensively minded midfielder in a key game or playing faster striker up front against a slow and aging defense. They'll also vary the starting positions of players to be either more defensive or attacking.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Of course not - however it is rather frustrating when...

1) you have an 1-0 away goal advantage going into the second leg of a cup tie

2) your own teams morale is almost unerringly superb

3) your opposition is near the bottom of the league when you are almost top

4) you have only lost one match at home before that time, which was a 1-0

...and yet...

5) your opponent has three on target and scores them all, you dominate the game but only score two. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nerves. That's about as simple as it gets. Your players are playing a key game and the nerves got to them. You need to reassure them so that the pressure does not get to much.

The opposition have no such pressure. The game is not in their favour. They are an away goal down so they just go for it. As you miss more and more efforts and they are more and more successful at halting you up front they will grow in belief. Hence they end the day superior.

When you notice they are on top you have to change things. If that means bringing on a young, pacey striker for your best player then so be it. At least that young player will be likely to be up for it. Your opponents will also need to score so will be going forward. That is when your young, pacey striker sneaks behind their defense and scores.

If you are doing something to change things and you are still losing then it is simply a case that you are doing the wrong thing. It does not mean the game is broken.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Roger Hunt:

But seriously - is it unreasonable that a game against close rival is one in which they are really motivated and play well? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course not - however it is rather frustrating when...

1) you have an 1-0 away goal advantage going into the second leg of a cup tie

2) your own teams morale is almost unerringly superb

3) your opposition is near the bottom of the league when you are almost top

4) you have only lost one match at home before that time, which was a 1-0

...and yet...

5) your opponent has three on target and scores them all, you dominate the game but only score two. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How dare this game be like real life! Losing a two-legged cup tie after winning the first by a slender margin! Shocking.

I'm goong to complain to God and see if he fixes it for Life 2009

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anagain:

Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson may play similar tactics in successive matches but they will alter small parts of that formations. That may include playing a more defensively minded midfielder in a key game or playing faster striker up front against a slow and aging defense. They'll also vary the starting positions of players to be either more defensive or attacking.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you can expect him to constantly be tweaking his tactics - I feel that just goes into far too much detail if bad losses are going to come out of not doing so.

However, I do also believe that the OP is rather disillusioned, there is no conspiracy - you just lost the match.

I have to say and I’m coming from six years in clan games in this version you play the Ai not the opposition. I used to build a team round the players I brought in first then Tactic second and when I say tactic I mean nothing special but a plain good tactic that is played in the real world.

In this I find you have to build a tactic so the sliders and settings beat the Ai and not necessarily individual teams which I find really poor.

Yes its tactical but its too tactical the impact and effect on the match, world class players play like morons with the wrong slider…..

I don’t want to rant again but I Share that View.

I think my original post is maybe being misinterpreted as a classic "the game is fixed" whinge.

I accept that shocks do happen and I accept that you can lose games that you dominate. It happens in real life, it happens in the game.

I have played a lot of CM/FM (too much) over the years, from versions of CM2 until now. I have seen a lot of matches go against me, and a few go in my favour too.

I won't go so far as to say the game is fixed - HOWEVER I do honestly believe that it has always operated a mechanism to stop excessively good human player performance.

If you will indulge me, here is my theory in more detail...

In earlier versions it was the "super-keeper" syndrome. In this version I believe the control is more subtle, from watching the match engine it seems to be that an unexplained drop in player motivation/dawdling on the ball seems to be the tool the AI uses to generate opposition goals. And I'm pretty sure uses it more often in the "big" matches for dramatic effect.

As a human player you are not on a level playing field with the computer generated opponents. That is a given. Within the match engine the AI knows all your tactics for starters, whereas all you get is an overview of theirs.

Secondly, I do not believe that the computer v computer matches use the same criteria to determine results. Instead of the visible match engine, I suspect the results are based on a calculation based on statistics like player CA, home advantage, morale and manager ability, plus a random factor.

The human v computer matches use a lot more detail, I believe they also take into account player stats a lot more. Have you noticed how many players with very poor stats but likely very good CA perform well for computer teams, but perform terribly if you buy them, or underperform in matches against you? Equally, have you noticed how often a player who scores rarely in computer v computer ties will score a hat-trick against you?

As a human manager you need better all-round players and consistently excellent tactics to get the same level of success as the computer.

To sum up...

Success is bloody hard to come by! Which is why it can be frustrating when results go against you at key moments. It is not fixed, but it is not entirely fair either.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

I won't go so far as to say the game is fixed - HOWEVER I do honestly believe that it has always operated a mechanism to stop excessively good human player performance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is far too much evidence that disproves this, throughout these forums. I read a post yesterday in which someone had won Serie A and the Champions League with San Marino, I got into the CL in the first season with Wigan and that was only spending £7m. There are various other examples of human managers having excessive success with lower teams.

Despite this, I would agree with Sav112 that you play to beat the AI rather than the opposition.

I don’t think there’s any “rubber band†effect built in but I do think the way the match calculation is designed, certain matches can have one or other team boosted or handicapped (as you go into the match to the extent that you might as well not bother playing the game. This can work in the favour of the human or the ai.

Whether it’s the pre-match team talk, moral, pressure, reputation, this “random seed†thing or any combination of these or other shadowy factors, certain matches are effectively almost pre-ordained, rendering tactics and the in-match calculations almost pointless. You can play certain matches umpteen times and the boosted team will win 9 times out of 10. It matters not a jot if your tactics ensure the opposition are always constrained in their passing choices or if you team has options aplenty. The boosted side will ALWAYS find the pass. The player will ALWAYS get his shot in. They (or you) will breeze about the pitch no matter what. The handicapped team will do nowt but give the ball away.

The fanboys and pseudo-gurus will scream and cry about the very idea of a fault (or deliberate ploy, though I doubt it) that effectively boosts or handicaps teams in an unfair manner, but they’re blinkered fools.

the scenario: player x scored 0 goals in the season so far. his team is on poor morale, you're on superb... it's 5th minute...oooooh it's his 1st goal of the season, 85th minute, he scored hattrick (probably 1st and only in his career) against you.

yeah I know, it's my tactics...

Originally posted by sosidge:

The human v computer matches use a lot more detail, I believe they also take into account player stats a lot more. Have you noticed how many players with very poor stats but likely very good CA perform well for computer teams, but perform terribly if you buy them, or underperform in matches against you? Equally, have you noticed how often a player who scores rarely in computer v computer ties will score a hat-trick against you?

exactly. good observation

But there is something a bit dodgy i am Man City top of the league playing Leicester mid table, in the league cup semi final,

We beat them 3 1 away (they had 2 shots) but we lose 4 1 at home they have 4 shots.

bo changes to either teams tactics or players in either match,

Also played Ath Madrid in champions league final we had 33 shots they had 4 game finished 0 0 we lost on pens ?

Thought I would continue my story...

Once again I ended up in the BSP playoffs after a (dare I say stage-managed) final day where myself or two other teams could have taken the automatic spot. Fair enough I was away and they were at home so it was always going to be a long shot.

Same opponents as in last years playoff, Brentford (I am in my seventh season in charge of Leigh), something of a bogey team for me, the tea-leaves were not looking good.

Away leg I dominate possession and shots yet lose 1-0, they have two on target, I have four. Their GK is man of the match.

Home leg - surprise surprise - I dominate once again, they do not get a shot on target, but a deflected goal gives them the 1-0 lead, and then a dubious red card scuppers my chance of scoring at all.

I know people like to say "it is the tactics" or "that is how football goes" but it is hard to take when two seasons in a row you dominate a team across both legs (more possession, more shots, more on target) yet still lose by a significant margin.

What can you do as a manager except set up your team to dominate possession, get more shots on goal than the opposition and restrict their opportunities? If you set up to NOT have the ball and NOT get shots on target you're not going to win much are you?

However, after a couple of biccies and a drink of council pop I will hold my head up high again and go for the automatic promotion spot AGAIN next year.

A friend of mine has a similar problem. He said:

------------------------------------------------

Dear Backpackant,

I think you're right. I'm playing as Chelsea and against Wigan I had a vastly superior team, second in the league, and I'm competing 5 points behind the leaders Man U with a game in hand. If I win this match and beat Man U, who I still have to play, I go top. So what happens? My vastly superior team are 1-0 up until the last minute, and then Wigan go 4-2-4 on me and a God-awful striker with stats that a schoolboy would be embarrassed about scores in the 92nd minute.

Okay, so we aren't exactly rivals, but they ARE near the bottom, and they ARE inferior in terms of stats and ability. Motivation, team spirit and the clearly bugged 4-2-4 system is making this game virtually unplayable.

Yours,

Avram Grant

------------------------------------------------

I think he might have a point.

And my other pal Arsene has had problems playing 2-legged games against Tottenham and Liverpool this season.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

I know people like to say "it is the tactics" or "that is how football goes" but it is hard to take when two seasons in a row you dominate a team across both legs (more possession, more shots, more on target) yet still lose by a significant margin.

What can you do as a manager except set up your team to dominate possession, get more shots on goal than the opposition and restrict their opportunities? If you set up to NOT have the ball and NOT get shots on target you're not going to win much are you?. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to show parallels with real life again, but the Wigan vs Arsenal Cup Semi a few years ago?

Well, the only positive I can see now is that Brentford have gone up so I won't be losing to them in the playoffs for a third year running!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

A friend of mine has a similar problem. He said:

------------------------------------------------

Dear Backpackant,

I think you're right. I'm playing as Chelsea and against Wigan I had a vastly superior team, second in the league, and I'm competing 5 points behind the leaders Man U with a game in hand. If I win this match and beat Man U, who I still have to play, I go top. So what happens? My vastly superior team are 1-0 up until the last minute, and then Wigan go 4-2-4 on me and a God-awful striker with stats that a schoolboy would be embarrassed about scores in the 92nd minute.

Okay, so we aren't exactly rivals, but they ARE near the bottom, and they ARE inferior in terms of stats and ability. Motivation, team spirit and the clearly bugged 4-2-4 system is making this game virtually unplayable.

Yours,

Avram Grant

------------------------------------------------

I think he might have a point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a home defeat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

And my other pal Arsene has had problems playing 2-legged games against Tottenham and Liverpool this season. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a home defeat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Queen of the Stevenage:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sosidge:

I know people like to say "it is the tactics" or "that is how football goes" but it is hard to take when two seasons in a row you dominate a team across both legs (more possession, more shots, more on target) yet still lose by a significant margin.

What can you do as a manager except set up your team to dominate possession, get more shots on goal than the opposition and restrict their opportunities? If you set up to NOT have the ball and NOT get shots on target you're not going to win much are you?. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to show parallels with real life again, but the Wigan vs Arsenal Cup Semi a few years ago? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a home defeat.

My original post was about home defeats against the run of play in key matches. I lost at home three times in the whole of my last season.

Indulge me again and let me run through the stats.

Twice to Brentford (2-1 in the league (they had two on target, I had 6), 1-0 in the playoff second leg (they had none on target, I had six).

The third defeat was at home to Ebbsfleet (final position 12th in BSP) in the second leg of the FA Trophy semi. This was a 3-2 defeat, they had (surprise surprise) 3 on target, I had 5.

So, of my three home defeats, two came in the second legs of cup/playoff ties, and the six goals conceded resulted from only FIVE shots on target!

This is one hell of a record of bad luck! And don't tell me my players are bottlers, morale has been superb and team talks have certainly not been damaging it. What more can you do?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

A friend of mine has a similar problem. He said:

------------------------------------------------

Dear Backpackant,

I think you're right. I'm playing as Chelsea and against Wigan I had a vastly superior team, second in the league, and I'm competing 5 points behind the leaders Man U with a game in hand. If I win this match and beat Man U, who I still have to play, I go top. So what happens? My vastly superior team are 1-0 up until the last minute, and then Wigan go 4-2-4 on me and a God-awful striker with stats that a schoolboy would be embarrassed about scores in the 92nd minute.

Okay, so we aren't exactly rivals, but they ARE near the bottom, and they ARE inferior in terms of stats and ability. Motivation, team spirit and the clearly bugged 4-2-4 system is making this game virtually unplayable.

Yours,

Avram Grant

------------------------------------------------

I think he might have a point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

dear mr. Grant. it's your tactics...

ONE GAME? You're complaining about losing ONE GAME?!!

Dear SI, the game must be REALLY fixed against me because I've lost loads of bloody games.

There are a million and one reasons why you might lose a game, many given above. It's not only not unusual, it's very, very common and most definitely NOT the AI cheating against you. You stated that the AI knows what your tactics are - when the AI knows no more about your tactics than you know about theirs. You have exactly the same options and choices the AI has except that the AI is limited in what it can do by the parameters of its programming, whereas you have no such limitations. YOU have the advantage.

If, despite all this, you still feel 'robbed', I'd suggest sending a pkm of the match to SI to look at it, but I wonder if you'll accept their evaluation if they show it was indeed a perfectly fair result...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Si BHA:

If you keep losing in Big Matches maybe your players hidden big match attributes aren't very high. So its possible your players are bottling it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps there is something in this, I have three players in the first team "squad" who "don't like the big occassions (according to the assistant). However I also have two that "relish" them. And among those players that don't like the big matches, the performances in the two cup defeats are spread from a 5 in one game to a selection of 6, 7 and an 8.

Unfortunately two of the three bottlers are comfortably the best in their positions over a season, one is the best rated player in the whole league last year, so I am loath to drop them.

Hope you don't mind if I bring this one back up...

I dumped the "bottlers" from my first team squad (any player that my coaching staff believed disliked the big occassions). This meant 4 of last years players had to be dropped into the reserves (3 were first choice defenders, the other my top rated midfielder). This also meant that my most expensive signing of the close season had to be dropped too because after a few matches he turned out to be a bottler as well.

I did decide to use a slightly more attacking formation for the new season. Compared to last season I did not dominate games in the same way, I continued to have a big advantage in possession but shots were a lot more evenly spread.

However, I stuck with it because the results kept coming in, and despite two defeats in the first two games of the season we were soon regular table toppers - taking the league title on the final day by 2 points.

We were knocked out of the FA Cup in a 1-0 home defeat to another title challenger, but to be fair we did not dominate the game, 2 SOT's to their 1.

FA Trophy was lost in the 2nd round away from home which I can always accept.

Setanta Shield though was a resounding success, we must have taken at least 4 coach loads of season ticket holders to Wembley and won 4-0 against Aldershot.

In total, we lost twice at home all season, once in the second game of the league (messed up pre-season and players were not fit), once in the aforementioned cup tie.

So, no "bottlers" in the team and the result is a league title and a cup.

We'll see how much success the "no bottler" rule can bring in League 2!

This season has definitely softened my views on whether the game has it in for you or not.

sosidge you get a for that last post. Most people who post what you did in your original post will say the Ai cheats no matter what. So well done for trying something a bit different

Also I dont think that you need to drop the bottlers totally but mostly at the end of the season or the big games they may mess up. For most matches they would be ok, I think.

Well played sosidge! Nice to see a bit of grit and determination, most would have had a winge and sulked. Just goes to show the sum can be greater than the parts.

So refreshing to see someone actually taking people's advice after what seemed like a moan about the game, nice one sosidge

Good to hear and especially nice to see someone come back and tell us how it went, too often people moan and then never tell us if the advice paid off.

Perserverance is a major part of the FM gamers life, I usually spend about 3 months going mad when the game comes out as I try to devise a tactic that works. It's worth it though, for the feeling you get when you're finally promoted or win something.