Evolution, not revolution

Does anyone else wish that SI took this approach to the FM series?

SO many pointless features are brought in every year, I don't care about features and I doubt many of the FM'ers use them either.

I'd prefer a fine tweek of the game, make it faster to run, quicker to get through a season etc.

For instance, I've just went to play a game, and I've got 6 "clicks" to go through before i progress

"pre match advice meeting"

"good crowd expected for celtic match"

"mcinnes doubts celtic chances"

"st johnstone face difficult celtic challenge"

"lennon pinpoints samuel threat"

"pre match press conference about to begin"

6Things which i skip, but still really slow the gametime down.

anyone who's played it will agree that CM 01/02 was the best from the series, this was because how quickly it ran, you could get through a season in about 3hours!...I've played 7hours of My season and I'm just entering November, it doesn't feel like a "game" and the small things that have to be done "agents, press conferences, team talks" really seem like a chore. I know you dont HAVE to do all these things, but they affect your team in a big way, especially team talks!

I'd love for SI to take an evolutionary approach to FM, fine tune, tweek etc rather than implement new and IMO pointless features, like 3D.

Or better still, give us an option to turn all the "added features" off...i'd rather have a less "in depth simulation" and more a "quick pick up and play game"...

Thats my two cents, rant over.

Most people enjoy a more indepth game, which takes longer to progress in. If you don't like that, then that is perfectly fine and a valid opinion, but surely the target of the game is realism? And so therefore it's only going to get more indepth.

Granted, I know more people that skip press conferences than do them, and some of the things may be considered surplus to requirements by some, but it's all with the aim of taking the player into the world, rather than as a gimmick. It does need improvement, but that will only make the game more indepth, which is not what you want (unless it is something of substance, I presume).

Unfortunately for you, people may not agree that a quicker season makes a better game, and I would imagine that is definitely not what SI are working towards.

My point is though, at the end of the day, It made its name as a management "game"...not a simulation.

Right now its going towards the simulation state, I think a good majority would prefer it being a fun game again.

If not, like i've said above...the option to control how much depth we want to go into would be good, i.e. turning off features that we don't want to use...

Its all these new features that make it such an in depth and realistic approach to football management. You talk about CM being a game, and fun etc, and it was, but that was the basics. This is why FM split off from CM, they are made by different companies now. Football Manager has progressed to the most realistic experiance provided to us so far. CM, Fifa manager etc are all much more basic versions of FM, and could be seen as more fun or entertaining by people. However, the reason I play football manager, over these games, is because of the experiance. I find the fact its in depth and realistic fun. If you want a game like you initially described, i would highly recommend Fifa manager

Its all these new features that make it such an in depth and realistic approach to football management. You talk about CM being a game, and fun etc, and it was, but that was the basics. This is why FM split off from CM, they are made by different companies now. Football Manager has progressed to the most realistic experiance provided to us so far. CM, Fifa manager etc are all much more basic versions of FM, and could be seen as more fun or entertaining by people. However, the reason I play football manager, over these games, is because of the experiance. I find the fact its in depth and realistic fun. If you want a game like you initially described, i would highly recommend Fifa manager

???

FM is made by the same company as CM was, all that changed was the publisher.

SI obviously have more staff now and others will have left but quite a few who worked on CM still work on FM.

Its all these new features that make it such an in depth and realistic approach to football management. You talk about CM being a game, and fun etc, and it was, but that was the basics. This is why FM split off from CM, they are made by different companies now. Football Manager has progressed to the most realistic experiance provided to us so far. CM, Fifa manager etc are all much more basic versions of FM, and could be seen as more fun or entertaining by people. However, the reason I play football manager, over these games, is because of the experiance. I find the fact its in depth and realistic fun. If you want a game like you initially described, i would highly recommend Fifa manager

No, you have me confused...

I don't want gimmicky acts like Fifa manager, have you even played CM 01/02?...go play that and then play Fifa manager, worlds apart.

I'm still looking for a realistic experience, but just not really loving the 6screens i need to go through on match day, cut out all the needless garbage and you have yourself the makings of a great game

No, you have me confused...

I don't want gimmicky acts like Fifa manager, have you even played CM 01/02?...go play that and then play Fifa manager, worlds apart.

I'm still looking for a realistic experience, but just not really loving the 6screens i need to go through on match day, cut out all the needless garbage and you have yourself the makings of a great game

How are you going through 6 screens?

Lets look at your examples:

"pre match advice meeting"

Its a news message, if you don't want the advice you just ignore the message.

"good crowd expected for celtic match"

Another message, you don't do anything.

"mcinnes doubts celtic chances"

Mind games comment? Again you can ignore the message.

"st johnstone face difficult celtic challenge"

Another message, you don't have to read it.

"lennon pinpoints samuel threat"

Another message, you don't have to read it.

"pre match press conference about to begin"

Ah a press conference, do yourself or send assistant.

So basically out of 6 messages only one required a response and it takes one click to "Send Assistant"

Jeez if you can't cope with six messages FM really isn't the game for you - If I look at my save that has just finished processing a couple of days I have 21 messages and no match.

Listen, don't tell me that FM isn't the game for me...i've been playing it since it was first released in its CM days in the early 90s.

My point is why is there the need for 6messages to come up about a game thats approaching?...why not condense it into one or two?...with the key information within it?

This is what i mean about tweeking and fine tuning rather than wholesale changes and brand new features...

OP - I think you'd enjoy Football Manager Handheld.

The main FM series will continue to be as in-depth as possible, as engaging, with as many features as possible that people have suggested and said they wanted. FMH seems to be aiming for a more fun, quick offering.

For what it's worth, I like the direction of FM - 3D and insta-contract negotiations are very good.

My point is why is there the need for 6messages to come up about a game thats approaching?...why not condense it into one or two?...with the key information within it?

That is critcism I can accept, however, please be wary of confusing personal expectation towards the game for fact ("not a manager anymore, but a sim"). I'd personally argue it's always been that way it is now, and that earlier versions had been more streamlined, basic and quick because of being early iterations, rather than because of a sudden shift in development. Miles Jacobson has pointed out for years that the aim has always been to make a sim.

Furthermore, I'd argue that you can very much play FM like the old days anyways, as scouting, buying and fielding players can get you far even when you don't care that much about what has been added on top of these entry-level manager game mechanics over the years, probably a confession made for newcomers and CM 01/02 era fans like. At least if you're doing it decently. I've seen many total newcomers who took Dortmund all the way to the championship in their first FM season ever - up to four match days before the season was about to close. (Except for decent signings, many couldn't tell why they started out this successful, one of them set up a single very aggressive tactic, stuck with it and took them all the way to CL glory).

Most of these new features, detract from immersion and realism imo. A broken or not very good new feature does not add realism. Repetitive pointless things do not add realism.

I want depth though, but things like more indepth training, not more indepth press conferances.

I want more realism, but multichoice team talks arent realistic. How about more realistic AI? Other managers, players. They dont seem to react in a realistic way most of the time. Signings, not signing, wage demands, happiness, many more things. Infact me the manager as well. Sometimes I feel I performed miracles but the fans or bioard dont even seem to recognise this. If I leave or join a club, theres barely any mention of it.

Thats what I think they should be focusing on.

Most of these new features, detract from immersion and realism imo. A broken or not very good new feature does not add realism. Repetitive pointless things do not add realism.

I want depth though, but things like more indepth training, not more indepth press conferances.

I want more realism, but multichoice team talks arent realistic. How about more realistic AI? Other managers, players. They dont seem to react in a realistic way most of the time. Signings, not signing, wage demands, happiness, many more things. Infact me the manager as well. Sometimes I feel I performed miracles but the fans or bioard dont even seem to recognise this. If I leave or join a club, theres barely any mention of it.

Thats what I think they should be focusing on.

The features are not broken, though, they just aren't perfect yet. Team talks is something that I'm sure is being looked at, but is very difficult to do, I can imagine. The AI got a bit of a major upgrade this time around, and I'm sure it will simply be tweaked to iron out those inconsistencies next time around.

I don't understand the "repetetive pointless things" quote... IRL, managers HAVE to sit through their press conferences. In FM, you can do these, it adds some realism to the game, and allows you to develop a rapport with other managers - it makes the game simulate real life a bit more - but you can also choose to skip them. I don't see how anyone could not be happy with them.

No feature detracts from the immersion and realism as:

a) They are adding to the realism - managers give team talks, they give press conferences, players are gobby, agents are idiots, etc.

b) If you don't like them, then you don't have to take part in them, you can just set your ass man to do team talks for you, to do press conferences for you, to negotiate contracts for you, etc.

SI are going to right way about this, and they have, if I am not mistaken, got a cycle going in releases, as to when new features are implemented and when existing features are tweaked. This is a very good thing, and will help to improve the game beyond recognition.

Does anyone else wish that SI took this approach to the FM series?

SO many pointless features are brought in every year, I don't care about features and I doubt many of the FM'ers use them either.

I'd prefer a fine tweek of the game, make it faster to run, quicker to get through a season etc.

For instance, I've just went to play a game, and I've got 6 "clicks" to go through before i progress

"pre match advice meeting"

"good crowd expected for celtic match"

"mcinnes doubts celtic chances"

"st johnstone face difficult celtic challenge"

"lennon pinpoints samuel threat"

"pre match press conference about to begin"

6Things which i skip, but still really slow the gametime down.

anyone who's played it will agree that CM 01/02 was the best from the series, this was because how quickly it ran, you could get through a season in about 3hours!...I've played 7hours of My season and I'm just entering November, it doesn't feel like a "game" and the small things that have to be done "agents, press conferences, team talks" really seem like a chore. I know you dont HAVE to do all these things, but they affect your team in a big way, especially team talks!

I'd love for SI to take an evolutionary approach to FM, fine tune, tweek etc rather than implement new and IMO pointless features, like 3D.

Or better still, give us an option to turn all the "added features" off...i'd rather have a less "in depth simulation" and more a "quick pick up and play game"...

Thats my two cents, rant over.

Please speak for yourself, i very much care about the new features, and i definitely do not think CM01/02 was the best.

How many of these threads do the forums really need?

I dunno, I get excited when I see lots of news items.

1 July is my favourite day.

I like the way the game presents the build-up to a match, I'd prefer to be able to choose whether to hold a press conference or not pre or post match (but be able to have one before and after every match if I so wish) although I realise that there has to be some press conferences as none at all is unrealistic... even SAF holds press conferences even though he doesn't speak to the press after a match.

The more information the game gives you, the easier it is to prepare for the next match

To quote wikipedia:

Football Manager is a series of football management simulation games developed by Sports Interactive and published by Sega. The game began its life in 1992 as Championship Manager; however, following the break-up of their partnership with original publishers Eidos Interactive, Sports Interactive lost the naming rights and re-branded the game Football Manager with their new publishers Sega.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager

Why do you want to rush through a season in 3 hours? For me it's about enjoying the journey rather than the destination.

Most of the features added are evolution, such as the 3D representation of the match engine. First it was just commentary, then the famous dots, now 3D. That is evolution.

I love the in-depthness in general, but agree there could be less news items in the pre-match build up. Some of these message could be combined with each other.

Also the first day of the transfer window when loads of new signings are announced, perhaps these could just go into one news item instead of one each. Same goes for people being removed from your shortlist - usually in pre-season I will scout at least 100 players at the same time, and then a year later I get a message for each one saying they have been removed from my shortlist. One message listing all the players removed from my shortlist would be much easier.

I dunno, I get excited when I see lots of news items.

1 July is my favourite day.

Yes! This!

I dunno, I get excited when I see lots of news items.

1 July is my favourite day.

No way, it's all about June 24th!

Yes! This!

Same here, when I see more than 15 news items I go make a cup of tea, roll a cigarette and settle in to digest and pick over all the news!

Same here, when I see more than 15 news items I go make a cup of tea, roll a cigarette and settle in to digest and pick over all the news!

Smoking is bad mate!

Smoking is bad mate!

its good for getting through the loading bits of FM tho!!

Nothing better than arranging to go watch a Scotland game with a cup of tea and something to smoke

its good for getting through the loading bits of FM tho!!

Nothing better than arranging to go watch a Scotland game with a cup of tea and something to smoke

provided the something contains no tobacco I'm in

provided the something contains no tobacco I'm in

you game for some crack then? LOL

you game for some crack then? LOL

uff No! I don't do "dirty drugs"

I don't smoke tobacco any more, I quit 2.5 years ago, but I'm still partial to the odd toke now and again and, as I can no longer stand the taste or smell of tobacco, I have to smoke it pure You's who don't are all lightweights...

and back on topic, FM has been evolving for 20 years and long may it continue... the problem that faces many people is that they have failed to adapt to the evolved versions and as each version is slightly further along the evolution scale they are falling further and further behind...

As the game improves, players need to adapt to the improvements to reap the benefits... if they fail to adapt, they will struggle...

uff No! I don't do "dirty drugs"

I don't smoke tobacco any more, I quit 2.5 years ago, but I'm still partial to the odd toke now and again and, as I can no longer stand the taste or smell of tobacco, I have to smoke it pure You's who don't are all lightweights...

and back on topic, FM has been evolving for 20 years and long may it continue... the problem that faces many people is that they have failed to adapt to the evolved versions and as each version is slightly further along the evolution scale they are falling further and further behind...

As the game improves, players need to adapt to the improvements to reap the benefits... if they fail to adapt, they will struggle...

hahaha good stuff. I quit the old Tobacco not long ago myself, hopefully i stick to it this time

Your completely right, one of the problems i notice is people expect to be able to play FM11 the same way they played CM01/02. If you dont adapt to the evolution you will struggle with FM.

Jeez if you can't cope with six messages FM really isn't the game for you - If I look at my save that has just finished processing a couple of days I have 21 messages and no match.

6 messages, of which only one requires actual attention, is 5 clicks too many. Over many matches, this stacks up quite a bit.

Anything that reduces useless information, useless clicks and condenses information down is always a plus.

Personally, I think a lot can be condensed down into one single email "Press buildup to St. Johnstone vs. Celtic" and the press conference will use this information. You could probably get it into one email - a big plus.

6 messages, of which only one requires actual attention, is 5 clicks too many. Over many matches, this stacks up quite a bit.

Anything that reduces useless information, useless clicks and condenses information down is always a plus.

Personally, I think a lot can be condensed down into one single email "Press buildup to St. Johnstone vs. Celtic" and the press conference will use this information. You could probably get it into one email - a big plus.

I agree with reducing useless information but I mostly disagree in this case.

The six messages are all part of immersing yourself in the game and enjoying the journey. If users just want to race through matches then I'm sorry but FM isn't that type of game anymore. The more you put into it the more you get from it.

If you look at the six messages:

Manager mind games - This always has to be separate as it relates to the opposition manager, judging from my own save atm I probably get one of these every 3-4 games on average.

Press Conference - again I think this is a message that should be kept separate.

The two general messages regarding pre-match odds and crowd sizes I guess could be merged into one.

That leaves the pre-match advice meeting which I again think needs to be separate as it comes from your coaches but the danger man warning message from an ex player could be added in here or even lumped in with the two general messages above.

So from six messages I could see benefit in reducing it to four but in general these are only messages, you don't have to read them but the more you do the more you immerse yourself in the gameworld.

This has always been a big issue with FM - How to make the user feel immersed in all sections of the gameworld.

I agree with reducing useless information but I mostly disagree in this case.

The six messages are all part of immersing yourself in the game and enjoying the journey. If users just want to race through matches then I'm sorry but FM isn't that type of game anymore. The more you put into it the more you get from it.

If you look at the six messages:

Manager mind games - This always has to be separate as it relates to the opposition manager, judging from my own save atm I probably get one of these every 3-4 games on average.

Press Conference - again I think this is a message that should be kept separate.

The two general messages regarding pre-match odds and crowd sizes I guess could be merged into one.

That leaves the pre-match advice meeting which I again think needs to be separate as it comes from your coaches but the danger man warning message from an ex player could be added in here or even lumped in with the two general messages above.

So from six messages I could see benefit in reducing it to four but in general these are only messages, you don't have to read them but the more you do the more you immerse yourself in the gameworld.

This has always been a big issue with FM - How to make the user feel immersed in all sections of the gameworld.

Immersion isn't about throwing lots of messages about. It should come naturally and should not be frustrating.

By putting it into an inbox of sorts, and without any sort of "inbox filtering" like Gmail's filters, it puts all emails essentially on par with each other.

I would personally bundle all the emails of this sort into a "match buildup" module, possibly not an email, possibly having some newspaper in the background detailing your verbal squabbles with the opposition manager, with various bits like match odds, dangermen and so on. But the newspaper doesn't have to be clicked - it can be clicked if you want to expand on things or read the news, but it is kept away from the emails, which detail what you should be interested in. Personally, I think one email with a button for the match press conference, a button for pre-match assistant advice with a summary of what may be asked (possibly referring to the newspaper) will suffice. That's one message and various optional bits that you can choose to immerse yourself into, which requires one mouse-click to expand and see all. Less-forced and more natural, than an "email is all".

Immersion isn't about throwing lots of messages about. It should come naturally and should not be frustrating.

By putting it into an inbox of sorts, and without any sort of "inbox filtering" like Gmail's filters, it puts all emails essentially on par with each other.

I would personally bundle all the emails of this sort into a "match buildup" module, possibly not an email, possibly having some newspaper in the background detailing your verbal squabbles with the opposition manager, with various bits like match odds, dangermen and so on. But the newspaper doesn't have to be clicked - it can be clicked if you want to expand on things or read the news, but it is kept away from the emails, which detail what you should be interested in. Personally, I think one email with a button for the match press conference, a button for pre-match assistant advice with a summary of what may be asked (possibly referring to the newspaper) will suffice. That's one message and various optional bits that you can choose to immerse yourself into, which requires one mouse-click to expand and see all. Less-forced and more natural, than an "email is all".

Do you actually enjoy playing the game x42? You come across as one who is doesn't, as if perhaps you are disheartened by the way SI have developed the game?

If you had asked me in December which is my favourite save ever in any version of FM I'd have said my FM09 Swindon save... now if you asked me I'd say categorically that my favourite ever save is my 3 seasons old Hereford save on FM11... why? Because FM 11 is THAT MUCH better than 09 (which I think was better was FM10 regardless of what everybody else thinks...)

I agree with reducing useless information but I mostly disagree in this case.

The six messages are all part of immersing yourself in the game and enjoying the journey. If users just want to race through matches then I'm sorry but FM isn't that type of game anymore. The more you put into it the more you get from it.

I agree with you. In between games, it takes me only a couple of seconds to click past the emails I'm not interested in (varies depending on the situation), meanwhile all the information's there should I need it. I'm pretty certain that I spend 90% of my game time either tweaking selections or other decisions, in the matches themselves, or leaving the engine processing other fixtures, which can take a little while, I've got a lot of leagues loaded and my save's been running almost two decades now. Of course I spend a lot of time exploring other results, looking at stats, and generally enjoying the wealth of information about players, clubs, and competitions that the game offers you.

There is no way that there's 'too much to do', or 'too much information', not for my taste anyway.

I personally prefer that the info is thrown at you, rather than it all being filtered out and you have to go looking for it. The day they start dumbing the game down and hiding the footballing world behind tabs will be when i start losing interest i think. I personally love getting lost in my FM world, reading useless bits of info from other leagues and the different news and interactions. However they could condense some of it at times, the players coming off your shortlist is a big one. Maybe even transfer/loan offers, they could have this all done on one screen rather that separate news items for each offer.

I personally prefer that the info is thrown at you, rather than it all being filtered out and you have to go looking for it. The day they start dumbing the game down and hiding the footballing world behind tabs will be when i start losing interest i think. I personally love getting lost in my FM world, reading useless bits of info from other leagues and the different news and interactions. However they could condense some of it at times, the players coming off your shortlist is a big one. Maybe even transfer/loan offers, they could have this all done on one screen rather that separate news items for each offer.

This. I actually miss the fact that we no longer get spoonfed the league news page after every fixture... I find it tedious to go look for it and so miss out on lots of info (and yes I know about screenflow... read "lazy" )

This. I actually miss the fact that we no longer get spoonfed the league news page after every fixture... I find it tedious to go look for it and so miss out on lots of info (and yes I know about screenflow... read "lazy" )

Yeah i loved that, even subscribing to a league doesnt give me enough info, i would love there to be more than their currently is, maybe less agent offerings but more just footballing news, like "playe x has jumped to the top of the scoring charts in the championship".