Can I prove I haven't cheated?

Just a quick question. I have a 25 season long update thread in the LLM forum which has been closed because I have been accused of cheating and using data editors or other programs (I don't even know what they would be called!).

Is there anyway I can prove that my save file has not been tampered with or edited in anyway? It's a completely clean save, patched with the SI patches only. I have no downloaded skins, tactics, training plans, or anything else you can download. I haven't used any editors. I've not even used the player search screen!

I can happily upload the save file for anyone with the technical know how to have a look at, if it is possible to prove that it is completely clean.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I'd really like to get my thread opened up again and carry on with my updates.

Thanks

Kevin

Lance Armstrong knows what its like to be so good at something that people are convinced it has to be some foul play involved. I think the ones most suspicious of cheating are the ones that use the editors a bit themselves. I have been reading your thread, and for what its worth I believe you when you say your game is clean. But to answer your question, I have no idea, but I doubt that it is possible.

No, I'm afraid that's not really possible.

You're on the wrong foot once the decision's been made: its very difficult to prove a negative. Sorry.

Out of interest, what sort of PAs did your team have that made them assume you're lying?

I read your thread and what do you have to say to Iajafar's claim that in your new career (with manager's son) in Switzerland you have bought players not yet scouted? Also what about having so many high PA players in your squad?

I sign players without scouting them sometimes, if they look good i don't see much need to scout them unless they're a young player and i want to see how good they will become. Chances are you won't get the thread re-opened though, because there is no way to conclusively prove that you haven't cheated. For what its worth i believe you when you say you didn't cheat and it seems a little insensitive for Iajafar to just close it because he thinks you cheated. There is also no way to prove that you did cheat and shouldn't it be innocent until proven guilty, rather than having moderators close up threads based on only their own judgement?

Signing players without scouting is standard procedure for me in low-leagues... I mean damn, when I'm in swedish div 2 pretty much any south american player will be an "any cost" signing. If my assistant say so when I offer contract, then I go for it!

The last two posts have missed the point of the lower league managers forum.

The last two posts have missed the point of the lower league managers forum.

How? i get that you have to be able to scout them to sign them, because its more realistic, but that doesn't mean its cheating if you don't. I'm going to spell it out for you, it's called taking risks, and it is something that you have to come across in all facets of life. So whay should someone's 25 season update thread be closed just because one or two people think he has cheated?

If you really are playing legit, you wouldn't give a crap, and just leave the bitter old LLM's to their own little forum, and keep playing an enjoying your success. Seeking validation suggests you do actually have something to hide, and are probably cheating.

As for the actual game, it seems like you have managed to get Peterborough from League 1, to Premier League Champions and European Champions in 8 years, and 6 from when you were promoted from the Championship.

As someone who is playing an LLM'esque, game as FC United, it took me 3 seasons to get out of League 1, then 6 to get out of the Championship, and it's going to take years before I even have a comfortable mid-table squad, let alone one challenging for the title, it smells like ********.

If you really are playing legit, you wouldn't give a crap, and just leave the bitter old LLM's to their own little forum, and keep playing an enjoying your success. Seeking validation suggests you do actually have something to hide, and are probably cheating.

As for the actual game, it seems like you have managed to get Peterborough from League 1, to Premier League Champions and European Champions in 8 years, and 6 from when you were promoted from the Championship. As someone who is playing an LLM'esque, game as FC United, it took me 3 seasons to get out of League 1, then 6 to get out of the Championship, and it's going to take years before I even have a comfortable mid-table squad, let alone one challenging for the title, it smells like ********.

Smell's like jealously.

Seeking validation has nothing to do with cheating. The fact is he had a 25 season long update thread that he actually put effort into and was happy that most of the readers were excited for his success and wanted to hear what was in store for future updates. Undoubtedly you would also be in this position if you were as good, clearly you feel the need to twist the knife in his back because you are feeling insecure. But of course i could have just analysed your post wrong like you analysed his wrong, if so then my bad.

Yeah - that's a distinction to be made here.

Gentlemen, the accusation against lollujo is not necessarily that he used a save-game editor, its that he was not following the rules of the LLM forum.

The LLM forum's rules are pretty arcane; they're a lot more strict than simply "manage at a Lower-League club." One of the rules is that one must not sign a player which one has not scouted.

(Please don't post criticizing or supporting those rules; you'll turn this thread into a religious debate about them. )

Unfortunately, there really isn't any way for lollujo to prove his innocence; I don't think there's really much way to prove 'cheating the LLM rules' either.

Smell's like jealously.

Seeking validation has nothing to do with cheating. The fact is he had a 25 season long update thread that he actually put effort into and was happy that most of the readers were excited for his success and wanted to hear what was in store for future updates. Undoubtedly you would also be in this position if you were as good, clearly you feel the need to twist the knife in his back because you are feeling insecure. But of course i could have just analysed your post wrong like you analysed his wrong, if so then my bad.

Most of the readers that were excited for his success had barely been seen in LLM beforehand though (or not at all), which just added to the general air of suspicion.

I think part of the problem lies in game-balance of long-term save-games with a single major league loaded; in his save-game's case, he had England and Switzerland loaded.

My experience is that with essentially one major league loaded and especially with a small database, it is far too easy to "corner the market" on top talent, and to achieve a world-dominant side.

Take note of the way his EPL over the final five seasons was more competitive than his Champions League, for example - I've had much the same experience when I run a just-England save-game. The AI in active leagues are simply far more competitive than the AI in inactive leagues.

I do recommend that anybody who wants to run a serious long-term save-game (10+ seasons) make the top flight of the following seven nations "Playable":

- Argentina

- Brazil

- England

- France

- Germany

- Italy

- Spain

As well as whatever leagues you want to play. That will ensure that there are quality regens in high enough quantity that you can't "corner the market" on top talent, and that there are plenty of active AI managers fighting for talent and European honours. That, in turn, will give you a lot more enjoyment of the game 10+ seasons down the line.

Jealousy? Nothing of the sort, I'm just comparing his game to mine, and I'm not the only one to say it looks suspicious on just how fast he's managed to turn a League 1 team, to Premier League and European Champions, in just 6 years.

I do recommend that anybody who wants to run a serious long-term save-game (10+ seasons) make the top flight of the following seven nations "Playable":

- Argentina

- Brazil

- England

- France

- Germany

- Italy

- Spain

As well as whatever leagues you want to play. That will ensure that there are quality regens in high enough quantity that you can't "corner the market" on top talent, and that there are plenty of active AI managers fighting for talent and European honours. That, in turn, will give you a lot more enjoyment of the game 10+ seasons down the line.

Thanks for the tip!

Any other advice you'd give to some one contemplating starting a "serious long-term save-game"?

Most of the readers that were excited for his success had barely been seen in LLM beforehand though (or not at all), which just added to the general air of suspicion.

Dumbest comment ever! Just because he has new supporters that makes him suspicious? You sound like the catholic church. He's brining new supporters to the LLM forum so you shun him.

Jealousy? Nothing of the sort, I'm just comparing his game to mine, and I'm not the only one to say it looks suspicious on just how fast he's managed to turn a League 1 team, to Premier League and European Champions, in just 6 years.

Yes your comparing your game to his and realising that he's done a better job, then you're reacting in a way that suggests he's cheating because no one could be doing better than you, thats jealousy. Plus there are more people who think he hasn't cheated than people who think he has cheated. Hitler wasn't the only one who hated Jews, does that justify his actions?

I suppose so, sure -

Options | Detail Level

When you've made a league playable, you can then edit which matches you want simulated in detail. If I'm starting off in, say, the Blue Square South, I set all of the European matches, Spanish, Brazilian, etc, to "Off" for the quickest processing time. I turn them on when they become relevant to me - e.g., I might turn on the UEFA Cup and Champions League when I reach the EPL, on the grounds that the extra mid-week matches, simulated in detail, impact six or seven EPL clubs and should have knock-on effects into the EPL season.

When I start qualifying for Europe myself, I turn on the other top-flight leagues for their impact on the teams I'm facing in my European fixtures. I'm trading processing speed for game-world accuracy at that point.

Beyond that, I'd say, don't accept a managerial job for a Nation which doesn't have its affiliated league active; you wind up with a very different experience which I don't find as enjoyable. That means, if I know I might want to manage, say, the U.S.A. internationally, I need to set the MLS as playable even though I may never want to manage in it.

Don't over-do it, though - the more active leagues you have, the slower things run, the larger your save-game gets, etc. So I try to be very careful choosing leagues.

I won't say a lot to it other than:

8 of the 15 players with the highest PA (all > 190) are his.

Some players have been signed without scouting.

There's not a single player in the squad with a PA < 169.

75% of his reserves are players with PAs > 160.

Nobody cares about his 'success'. If it's a fine savegame, he can have all the success he wants.

Claims of jealousy are stupid.

Make your own picture about it instead of making up conspiracy theories about a thing you have no idea about.

Dumbest comment ever! Just because he has new supporters that makes him suspicious? You sound like the catholic church. He's brining new supporters to the LLM forum so you shun him.

Why are you making allusions to the Catholic Church and Hitler on an internet forum about a football game?

Lads, please cut it out.

There's no need for the back-and-forth, and certainly no need for insults or the old Hitler strawman.

I'll close the thread immediately if this continues.

I think part of the problem lies in game-balance of long-term save-games with a single major league loaded; in his save-game's case, he had England and Switzerland loaded.

My experience is that with essentially one major league loaded and especially with a small database, it is far too easy to "corner the market" on top talent, and to achieve a world-dominant side.

Take note of the way his EPL over the final five seasons was more competitive than his Champions League, for example - I've had much the same experience when I run a just-England save-game. The AI in active leagues are simply far more competitive than the AI in inactive leagues.

I do recommend that anybody who wants to run a serious long-term save-game (10+ seasons) make the top flight of the following seven nations "Playable":

- Argentina

- Brazil

- England

- France

- Germany

- Italy

- Spain

As well as whatever leagues you want to play. That will ensure that there are quality regens in high enough quantity that you can't "corner the market" on top talent, and that there are plenty of active AI managers fighting for talent and European honours. That, in turn, will give you a lot more enjoyment of the game 10+ seasons down the line.

Too little. When I want to play that far I have everything loaded. Which makes the line between complete disaster and great success really damn thin. :|

Why are you making allusions to the Catholic Church and Hitler on an internet forum about a football game?

OMG *head in hands*

You jsut don't get it even though i spelt it out with examples.

But anyway this is a good thread to show the failings of a long term game if you don't load enough leagues. He only loaded the swedish and english leagues as said above and look what happened. Good lesson in fm.

I won't say a lot to it other than:

8 of the 15 players with the highest PA (all > 190) are his.

Some players have been signed without scouting.

There's not a single player in the squad with a PA < 169.

75% of his reserves are players with PAs > 160.

Nobody cares about his 'success'. If it's a fine savegame, he can have all the success he wants.

Claims of jealousy are stupid.

Make your own picture about it instead of making up conspiracy theories about a thing you have no idea about.

The scouting system in FM makes it fairly easy to fill out your squad with high PA players, once you are a top side. You cant really go wrong when your first team are top players, if you just follow what your scouts are saying. I dont have any editors or scout-programs available, so I cant check my own game, and I wouldnt want to either as it would ruin the save for me, but I highly doubt that I got any players in my squad either with less than 160 PA. I find the fact that he only has 8 of the 15 190+ as a good argument that he didn't cheat.

And how can you be so sure he didnt scout the players? I for one don't keep scout reports for more than 3 months tops. What I do is I send my scouts on assignments, then shortlists the players with good reports, sorting them by position, then delete all that scouts reports. I dont want to clutter up the scouts report page with old reports. That way its easier to recognize freshly scouted players. Scout reports auto delete too after a certain amount of time.

This seems more like a witch-hunt than anything else, with the moderators in that thread clearly out of line, and ruining a thread that was enjoyed by many others.

The scouting system in FM makes it fairly easy to fill out your squad with high PA players, once you are a top side. You cant really go wrong when your first team are top players, if you just follow what your scouts are saying. I dont have any editors or scout-programs available, so I cant check my own game, and I wouldnt want to either as it would ruin the save for me, but I highly doubt that I got any players in my squad either with less than 160 PA. I find the fact that he only has 8 of the 15 190+ as a good argument that he didn't cheat.

And how can you be so sure he didnt scout the players? I for one don't keep scout reports for more than 3 months tops. What I do is I send my scouts on assignments, then shortlists the players with good reports, sorting them by position, then delete all that scouts reports. I dont want to clutter up the scouts report page with old reports. That way its easier to recognize freshly scouted players. Scout reports auto delete too after a certain amount of time.

This seems more like a witch-hunt than anything else, with the moderators in that thread clearly out of line, and ruining a thread that was enjoyed by many others.

Yay hi-5! Couldn't have put it better myself.

Okay, before you go lambasting another section of the forum with terms such as witch hunt etc, lets just generalize and look at say the T&T forum.

For arguments sake you have 20 people, that have down loaded and are using the next latest and greatest tactic. They may be all playing in different leagues and with different clubs. However, it would be fair to say that the amount of success for each person would be comparable in some way.

Sure you would have some do better than others and some may even exceed all others, even still the amount of success overall would be equatable overall.

Now looking at it from LLM, again another 20 people playing, with one person far exceeding anything that anyone else has done. So are you suggesting that of those 20 people, that 19 find it impossible to reach something equivocal in terms of success.

Yes I get that some FM players are better than others, and yes I understand that there may be some luck involved. But when all are playing the same guidelines, it seems a little far fetched to assume that one person can achieve so much in comparison.

yes but tactics control a large portion of success, but in this case everyone is using their own tactics, which would create greater fluctuations so that example was rather pointless tbh.

No I don't think it would be totally pointless, as even though tactics play a large portion of success as you mentioned, you still have to have players of calibre.

So even though in LLM each plays to their own tactic, if all have high calibre players there would still be a comparable amount of success overall.

Lance Armstrong knows what its like to be so good at something that people are convinced it has to be some foul play involved. I think the ones most suspicious of cheating are the ones that use the editors a bit themselves. I have been reading your thread, and for what its worth I believe you when you say your game is clean. But to answer your question, I have no idea, but I doubt that it is possible.

You are really trying to say he's not guilty of doping unless convicted, aren't you?

Cannot say 'unless proven otherwise' as it was proven.

Sorry if I missed the irony of you post , then I'd actually like the joke a lot.

What I dont understand is how it is so unheard of to be successful for LLM'ers. Me and my friend play our game as LLM as a network game. We use strict LLM rules. We both started off as terrible clubs in Segunda Division B in Spain. And 16 seasons in we have both won the Champions League, and we are dominating the La Liga with being 1 and 2 for the last 5 seasons or so. This is not meant as boasting, and I have no intentions of joining the LLM community. All I am saying is if you put in the effort, and really try to reach the top, its not that hard. And we have not got a lot of money either, with neither of us being able to upgrade our stadiums. 10k and 16k stadiums when gunning for CL-glory is not a walk in the park, but it is easily achievable without the use of editors or exploits, and by strictly following the rules of LLM. I appreciate the fact that many LLM'ers dont really try to achieve success. They are content of staying in the lower leagues, nurturing talent for selling to the top clubs or whatever. But if you really try to achieve success, which a network game with a lot of prestige involved forces you to do, then its not that unbelievable that a person has achieved great success after 20+ seasons.

What Amaroq says is very much true in my experience, though when I play I rarely if ever have out of Europe leagues loaded.

Having the top 4 european leagues loaded will in my experience provide plenty of competition for the raw talents, at least those talents that already are somewhat developed and those more than rarely are sold at quite steep prices, which always forces you to take a gamble on whether you think you will have the luck to develop them. (considering they may yet fail to fulfill their full potential).

Even with many european leagues loaded, including the top and x amount of 5-20 UEFA coifficient ranked leagues, you can through scouts easily identify young talent with high potential, the problem is to develop them, dont see an easy way to figure out if that is done legit or not, though - one way could be to check if he's let a good amount of talented players go over the years, no one ever has 100% success rate with talents.

I consider myself more than average in terms of nurturing talent and my rate, at least when it comes to talents I dont crack open the wallet to buy, is far below 50%, even in clubs with many great coaches/facilities, with countless players failing to reach their potential, some never doing so, others doing at another club much to my dismay esp. if I dont have sell-on clauses in place.

No I don't think it would be totally pointless, as even though tactics play a large portion of success as you mentioned, you still have to have players of calibre.

So even though in LLM each plays to their own tactic, if all have high calibre players there would still be a comparable amount of success overall.

No that doesnt matter at all. I can take manchester city for example and buy a squad of 22 players that are the best 22 players in the world, but if my tactics are rubbish i will still fail to achieve great heights. Tactics play a much bigger role than everyone having quality players. As another example i have struggled to get Torres to score consistently with liverpool but i have seen about two posts on this forum where someone has managed to get him scoring 35+ goals in the first season. Same great player but different tactics make a huge difference. So that tactic example is rather pointless IMO.

On topic:

In a game of 25 seasons it is very difficult to prove cheating.

I you upload your game, someone who uses a scout or real time editor application could check if the PA of players who were there initially was edited, but not more. Reputation and facilities will have changed and so on.

What cannot be checked by any means is whether a scout app was used at any point in time nor of course if players were signed without scouting.

Btw I am in 2012 in my carreer game (not the quicked one around, eh) and already I have six (!) regen wonderkids in my squad. Don't know their PA, but it must be 180+ iirc for wonderkids. It is absolutely possible to aquire that amount of talent without using third party apps at all if you are a big club with good scouts and some effort.

For instance, I am looking through the squads of foreign clubs for regens and if my assman thins I should sign them at any cost, I scout them and if my scouts agree, chances are I signed another future wonderkid. Of course I know, that in the context of LLaMa managing that would be cheating, but those rules are not mine. To a slightly lesser extent it should also be possible without that kind of screening, especially if there are just very few active leagues.

I suppose so, sure -

Options | Detail Level

When you've made a league playable, you can then edit which matches you want simulated in detail. If I'm starting off in, say, the Blue Square South, I set all of the European matches, Spanish, Brazilian, etc, to "Off" for the quickest processing time. I turn them on when they become relevant to me - e.g., I might turn on the UEFA Cup and Champions League when I reach the EPL, on the grounds that the extra mid-week matches, simulated in detail, impact six or seven EPL clubs and should have knock-on effects into the EPL season.

When I start qualifying for Europe myself, I turn on the other top-flight leagues for their impact on the teams I'm facing in my European fixtures. I'm trading processing speed for game-world accuracy at that point.

Sorry to ask you off topic, but how do you change detail levels in a running save?

I'm really puzzled how I could miss that option so far...

Cheers

As he wrote:

Options-> Detail level (#2 option).

I think part of the problem lies in game-balance of long-term save-games with a single major league loaded; in his save-game's case, he had England and Switzerland loaded.

My experience is that with essentially one major league loaded and especially with a small database, it is far too easy to "corner the market" on top talent, and to achieve a world-dominant side.

Take note of the way his EPL over the final five seasons was more competitive than his Champions League, for example - I've had much the same experience when I run a just-England save-game. The AI in active leagues are simply far more competitive than the AI in inactive leagues.

I do recommend that anybody who wants to run a serious long-term save-game (10+ seasons) make the top flight of the following seven nations "Playable":

- Argentina

- Brazil

- England

- France

- Germany

- Italy

- Spain

As well as whatever leagues you want to play. That will ensure that there are quality regens in high enough quantity that you can't "corner the market" on top talent, and that there are plenty of active AI managers fighting for talent and European honours. That, in turn, will give you a lot more enjoyment of the game 10+ seasons down the line.

Tipping is also one of the rules of the LLM forum.

Based on the arguments here I would never post my LLM career here, in what seems a hostile environment of jealously aimed at anyone with sucess.

Turns out my LLM career is full of sackings, debt, regens, and relegation, but I have no intention of posting it here as it may get locked as there is a player or 2 I signed with out scouting.

Based on the arguments here I would never post my LLM career here, in what seems a hostile environment of jealously aimed at anyone with sucess.

Turns out my LLM career is full of sackings, debt, regens, and relegation, but I have no intention of posting it here as it may get locked as there is a player or 2 I signed with out scouting.

You can still post it outside in the stories forum

The LLM forum is very special as it accomodates only users with a very rigid approach. One can debate whether those rules are good or nonsense but that doesn't matter in that forum. Either you obey everything or you flamed and closed. That makes this indeed a hostile environment, but no one will stop you to share your story in a friendlier place which is luckily provided on here as well.

Some of these posts are incorrect. The four rules are in the header, and they should be obeyed if you wish to playing the LLM way. The signing without scouting is a guideline. The guidelines are there because the aim of LLM is to place the game as realistic as possible, and they help you to play the game more realistically.

I have nothing bad to say about the LLM forum as they were very patient with me when I broke one of the rules on posting. I understand how the OP feels but, because LLM is such a rigid thing, it should be approached as such.

Based on the arguments here I would never post my LLM career here, in what seems a hostile environment of jealously aimed at anyone with sucess.

Turns out my LLM career is full of sackings, debt, regens, and relegation, but I have no intention of posting it here as it may get locked as there is a player or 2 I signed with out scouting.

The scouting thing is a guideline. You can sign someone you haven't scouted, but who would do that in real life? It's risky business and often you'd be wasting your money.

there has been times were it was not possible to send a scout for a player. Say I get to 1 day before the transfer window shuts, and My 2 goalkeepers and all my youth keepers get injured.....you would not have the time to scout a player and sign him, because the window would shut by the time the scout gets back with a report, there for blindly signing a player may be a risk worth taking

Depends what leage you were in.

there has been times were it was not possible to send a scout for a player. Say I get to 1 day before the transfer window shuts, and My 2 goalkeepers and all my youth keepers get injured.....you would not have the time to scout a player and sign him, because the window would shut by the time the scout gets back with a report, there for blindly signing a player may be a risk worth taking

Don't criticise the guidelines without taking the time to understand why they're there, please - as one of the mods already highlighted, there's no requirement whatsoever for a discussion regarding the LLM forum's guidelines.

And in fact, on reflection - the OP has had his question answered, so to avoid the inevitable BBQ, I'm going to close the thread.

Thanks

Matt