Had enough, this game is a waste of time and money

Head note: this thread is for b*tching about this game, if you are one of the holy FM god squad then please dont bother posting on this thread please. Go find someone else to have a go at.

Finally decided that FM'09 was a waste of money and is wasting my time. Every year i buy it and after 9 months of tinkering a finally get a semi-decent tactic working. BUT then the new version comes out and i copy the tactics i previously used, but they never work. so back to the drawing board. Every year the cycle continues. However now is enough. fed up of having more possession than the opposition but yet loosing 3-0 (or whatever) having more shots, but loosing. Tired of my defenders and fall backs backing off again and again and low and behold the shot they take is on target and in. 1-0 down and thats game over. No matter what you do it will be 1-0, the Ai has got what it wants and you cant get past them. My players cant be asked and when they half try they stuff it up. And for those who insist the AI does not cheat can get lost. What ever tactic you put out it works out the counter, so you change it and one of two things happens, either the team cant adapt to it so you play like a load of donkeys, or the AI adapts yet again to beat you. You just cant beat something that is able to counter your every move. Its like playing a computer at chess, it can work out the possible moves you can both make and wrok out the best moves for it to make in order to win. Like so many threads i have read i cannot and do not have the time to spend an entire day preparing and playing a match to such a length that i may have a half chance of winning.

It seems to me that unless you play a certain way (i.e. how the AI plays) then you cant ever win anything, and thus waht is the point in the game?! If you find a winning formular (and i aint expecting to win every game) in one version of the game then it should carry on to other versions, but it never does. (In FM2008 i had a decent tactic with Tottenham, didnt actually win any silverwear but got to league cup final in first year, UEFA final in 2nd year and got 4th in prem to qualify for champs league, so it was not half bad).

I also have serious issue with the 3D match engine. soooooo many errors with the ball bouncing off players (usaully your own) and even had a player kick the ball, sorry BLAST the ball, into his own net when he was not under pressure and all he had to do was clear it. yes players make mistakes but this was a joke, the AI players NEVER do this.

As i said at beginning if you want to shoot me down after this rant then go ahead but i did say this thread was not for you.

Anyway it would be interesting to hear what other unhappy player think.

What patch are you playing with?

patch 2.0 ( but have 3.0 downloaded for the updates etc)

Well I believe that the match engine was improved so players actually close down when instructed to and didn't just stand there and get the ball 'blasted' off them. As for the tactics not transferring over to the new patches - I have kept the same tactic from 9.2.0 and am still having success in 9.3.0.

with the tactics transfering over, i was on about my tactics from FM2008. Understandably there may be some 'improvements' but surly an entire tactic isnt made redundent by a new version of the game??

i agree with some of your points, its abit over the top, SI have made it so hard that getting a winning tactic can take months to create, its so fustrating sometimes. And when you finally do, it susses you out after 10ish games. I have had alot of success though so far, but ive hit a dead point where my 3 tactics just wont work, and im finding it so hard to get another one.

Not totally redundant but you will have to tweak an old tactic to adjust to the new Match Engine and the fact that the curved arrows have gone makes it even more important for your individual player instructions to be right for a tactic to work on Fm09.

i agree, and unless you had some strange player movement tactic that the old arrows were used for, you should be able to adapt the forward runs etc to the new match engine (a matter of maybe moving the players into different starting positions on the tactics screen). I can understand one AI manager working out how to beat your tactics (alls fair and all) but then every other AI manager seems to cotton on, yet you cant see what other managers do to beat the team you are playing next. Maybe as a future feature for 2010 could be to get ass man/scout feedback on what tactics were used against the opponent you are about to face in the previous match.

In all fairness the core of a tactic I'm currently using, I designed for FM08 and imported it over to FM09. It's working fine. The main problem may be that tactics you have used in the past may have exploited the match engine one way or another and have since been fixed, which it's understandable that SI should do.

Most of the tactics I've built have never been based around known exploits or taken advantage of any flaws in the match engine, so I've never had a problem importing tactics from one version to another. I'm not saying you have created the problem yourself, but offering a possible explaination as to why previous tactics may not work. Many people who post so called "super" tactics on the forums are mostly using exploits. They certainly won't work from one game to another. Think of Kimz tactic that got the most hits last year for FM08. This tactic was based around every possible way to exploit flaws in the match engine. Now think, "why has he not posted a super tactic for FM09?". Because there are less exploitable flwas in the match engine.

It's also worth pointing out that this has been the very first 3D match engine SI have used for FM, therefore there was always going to be potential problems they would have to iron out. If you've not updated to patch 9.3 then your criticism of the match engine is pretty redundant given that they've made a huge amount of improvements in this latest patch. Much of what you're currently experiencing, you shouldn't see in the latest version of the match engine with the 9.3 patch.

Ultimately, I'm not trying to convince you that you should like FM because the majority of people are happy with it. Ultimately it's the same with anything, the unhappy minority shout the loudest and make the most noise. You're entitled to your opinion of course.

Hope you manage to find a game of some description that you prefer.

"holy FM god squad"

This is classic and made me laugh. However, I feel that you may need to be taken to the river and washed clean of sin and FM blasphemy...

A fair few points there, however i have updated to the latest patch (hense all know bugs that have been delt with have been). I just play without the updated transfers from january.

And i am pretty sure that my tactic does not exploit errors in the match engine (didnt win anything with it but did well, which makes me happy). My one gripe would be that SI stated that they would not do a 3d match engine until they could 'get it right'. Two personal comments for this: 1) Nothing like this will ever be perfect the first time you try it (hense the bugs and fixes) 2) SI did not get it right (blatent marketing stratgey to explain why they were 'behind' other versions of footy sims).

I did infact decide to try a game with reading with just the traditional 2d match engine and got promoted to the EPL in first season (no big wow as they have some great players) but i did see a reduction in the 'error' that the players tend to make.

I would like to stress that its impossoble to show on a 3d match engine all the little quirks that a player can do/make in a game and thus seeing the ball just bounce off a player and they do nothing is simulating something different, but the engine is riddled with silly player mistakes that make no sense to real life, let alone a computer simulation.

I'm also Spurs and on 9.3.0, i've used the same tactic for 2 seasons and i've done quite well, 6th in the league and Uefa Cup Qtr final 1st season and 4th in the league and won Uefa Cup 2nd season so can't say i'm having the same problem as you, from what i've read on here 9.2.0 was horrible so maybe you would do better on 9.3.0? In reference to closing down i've seen an improvement from when I played on 9.1.0. I set my CB's to 2 clicks past normal and FB's 3 clicks past normal then everyone else 5 clicks past normal and it seems to be working for me. If you need help with anything else i'll see what I can do and I hope what I said helps with closing down.

For me i've used basically the same strategy for ther last 2 or 3 fm's and not really had any major problems, although don't play 3 at the back you will just get carved open, no matter how good the defenders are.

Also i've never experianced the 3D match engine issues, mainly due because i thought it looked so ugly i decided to stay to the 2D match engine which if i'm honest, is bloody good and better than anything else on the market.

I think you'll find that the "errors" that you are seeing players make are in fact part of the on screen representation and not the match engine. For example, in a recent match for me, Fabio Aurelio was struggling with under 70% yet I had no more subs left. The match viewer placed him in the way of the attacker, but he did not move. The atacker ran round him and scored. Now, this wasn't because he did not move, it is because he was not actually there, the viewer had just got it wrong.

As for the tactics, it took me 4 or 5 games to get a team and tactic that I could work with. The match engine has been made more difficult for a reason - it was just getting way too easy to create amazing tactics. SI took on the Tactical Frameworks and created an ME that allowed far less exploitation. Without realising it, most of my tactics previously were simply expoiting flaws in the ME. So I used the Tactical Frameworks to create a tactic I feel would play how I wanted to and win me matches. Please read this document. It will really enhance your experience of FM09. If you want a more "arcadey" simulation leave 09 alone then, as it is just too difficult to dip in and out of without giving a high level of thought to tactics.

BTW, I also change my tactic slightly 3 or 4 times a game. Watch how the match is playing out. If one of the opposition players is being afforded too much space, go and stick a man on him. If you see that their left back is struggling, focus your passing down the right flank. These are all things that real life managers do, and once you get the hang of it your enjoyment levels will rocket. Imagine your satisfaction when you notice a gap and tweak your tactic to exploit it and score the winner! Or if you remove the leagues top goalscorer from the game entirely by marshalling him throughout.

Oh the 2d match engine is fantastic. and it does seem from other posts i have read that setting defenders to attacking mentality of some kind is miles better than defensive. Which makes me wonder the point of defensive mentality (is it there is you want to let the opposition run at you so they can get close enough to shoot??)

"I also have serious issue with the 3D match engine. soooooo many errors with the ball bouncing off players (usaully your own)"

God I hate this. And that little side way shufle run which is so slow.

I am actually starting to enjoy 09 however their are some huge things that grinde my gears, for instance I have developed a tactic which has my team playing the football I want, its pretty and effective and I generally enjoy seeing it. If I lose to a better side or by an awesome goal scored by a top player fine, no problem there. Where my problem lies is when my keeper comes out to clear and makes a mess of it, my CD's stand and literally watch the ball roll to a player on the opposition who has to run 10-15 yrds to put it in an empty net and my CD's are at the most 3 yrds away and all they have to do is hoof it. I realise no tactic is perfect and I will get beaten from time to time thats fine, however I ,as a manager, can not accept 2 Cd's standing looking at a ball and seeing an opposing player tap it in to an empty net, especially in a game I dominate and even miss a pen after hitting the woodwork twice and seeing glaring misses from my front line.

I accept mistakes are a real part of footbal, thats fine, even more then that it great SI implement them into the game to give a real football experience, but little things like this, and the ball bouncing off players, are so annoying. I realise that the 3d ME aint perfect but I believe firmly that the weaknesses in the animations or so infuriating for many players, I don't expect to see PES being played out but something with a little more common sense would be a dream.

BTW, here is the link to the TT&F:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=61144

Oh the 2d match engine is fantastic. and it does seem from other posts i have read that setting defenders to attacking mentality of some kind is miles better than defensive. Which makes me wonder the point of defensive mentality (is it there is you want to let the opposition run at you so they can get close enough to shoot??)

Not necessarily, do you use individual mentality for your players of a global mentality?

Have read TF and its is a great piece of writing, however it does add a strong backing to my belief that there is really only one way to play the game and any deviation will result in failure.

On a relating note to the comments about dipping in and out, i wonder how long on average a person takes preparing for one particular game and in fact playing each game (someone said in another post that they watch the entire 90 minute match to get an idea of what is going right and what is going wrong, a very good idea but who has that sort of time on their hands?)

One more thing i would like to see in future versions is the ability to take a player into your office after a match and give them a rollicking for a huge mistake they have made, as it seems they just get away with it (you want realism then this is what RL managers do, not sure how it could be done but seeing as you can highlight new areas for them to train, and be asked a about a penalty that should/should not have been, it cant be far off from that sort of thing)

Have read TF and its is a great piece of writing, however it does add a strong backing to my belief that there is really only one way to play the game and any deviation will result in failure.

But surely this applies to real life too? I mean, how many managers survive without at least some grasp of tactics? And its not really one way to play, you can choose to go attacking, short passing, long passing, wingplay, use a targetman, run onto ball, etc.

Also, agree with the telling players off. This is after all a Football "Management" game, and man amanagement is seriously underplayed in the game.

One more thing i would like to see in future versions is the ability to take a player into your office after a match and give them a rollicking for a huge mistake they have made, as it seems they just get away with it (you want realism then this is what RL managers do, not sure how it could be done but seeing as you can highlight new areas for them to train, and be asked a about a penalty that should/should not have been, it cant be far off from that sort of thing)

You can discipline a player for poor performance if he plays less than a certain rating, can't remember what the rating is but it is possible.

Sorry to hear that you aren't liking your experience. Personally, I've never fiddled with the tactics very much. A basic 4-4-2 with one midfielder barrowing and one farrowing, and then setting individual instructions with DC's playing ultra-defensive, Backs playing defensive with occasional forward runs, Wingers set to run with ball often, and have my strikers swap places with one slightly more attacking than the other. Then I set up corner instructions (highest jump values are set to man or go back on defense) and aside from that...nothing. Now in my second season and so far I'm doing as well as/if not better than the first season. I think part of the problem is that many people are overthinking things, and looking at the occasional one or two game skid as a sign that they need to make changes.

maybe you should try Dora the Explorer for Nintendo DS

Infraction-sense...tingling...

And for those who insist the AI does not cheat can get lost. What ever tactic you put out it works out the counter, so you change it and one of two things happens, either the team cant adapt to it so you play like a load of donkeys, or the AI adapts yet again to beat you. You just cant beat something that is able to counter your every move. Its like playing a computer at chess, it can work out the possible moves you can both make and wrok out the best moves for it to make in order to win. Like so many threads i have read i cannot and do not have the time to spend an entire day preparing and playing a match to such a length that i may have a half chance of winning.

....

I also have serious issue with the 3D match engine. soooooo many errors with the ball bouncing off players (usaully your own) and even had a player kick the ball, sorry BLAST the ball, into his own net when he was not under pressure and all he had to do was clear it. yes players make mistakes but this was a joke, the AI players NEVER do this.

Well, I'd hardly consider myself an FM God, but to say the AI cheats is just plain silly. In 9.2.0 I would agree that comebacks were way too common, but 9.3.0 has been fine. Playing as Tottenham you shouldn't really need the tactics bible - just keep things simple, set players to a style of play that suits them and all that. When you have a slender lead and the clock hits 80mins just defend, pass short, etc. It really is not necessary to spend "a whole day" setting up a tacitc. If you're having trouble it ain't the game's fault.

As for the evil bobbling ball, this was mostly fixed with 9.3.0, and the AI hits the ball against its own players more often than mine to. And AI players don't make stupid mistakes? I had an opposition player head the ball into his own net from OUTSIDE his area.

It's either your perception or you're exaggerating.

One more thing i would like to see in future versions is the ability to take a player into your office after a match and give them a rollicking for a huge mistake they have made, as it seems they just get away with it (you want realism then this is what RL managers do, not sure how it could be done but seeing as you can highlight new areas for them to train, and be asked a about a penalty that should/should not have been, it cant be far off from that sort of thing)

There definitely needs to be more private discussion with players and staff. I'd expect it in future versions.

Head note: this thread is for b*tching about this game, if you are one of the holy FM god squad then please dont bother posting on this thread please. Go find someone else to have a go at.

Finally decided that FM'09 was a waste of money and is wasting my time. Every year i buy it and after 9 months of tinkering a finally get a semi-decent tactic working. BUT then the new version comes out and i copy the tactics i previously used, but they never work. so back to the drawing board. Every year the cycle continues. However now is enough. fed up of having more possession than the opposition but yet loosing 3-0 (or whatever) having more shots, but loosing. Tired of my defenders and fall backs backing off again and again and low and behold the shot they take is on target and in. 1-0 down and thats game over. No matter what you do it will be 1-0, the Ai has got what it wants and you cant get past them. My players cant be asked and when they half try they stuff it up. And for those who insist the AI does not cheat can get lost. What ever tactic you put out it works out the counter, so you change it and one of two things happens, either the team cant adapt to it so you play like a load of donkeys, or the AI adapts yet again to beat you. You just cant beat something that is able to counter your every move. Its like playing a computer at chess, it can work out the possible moves you can both make and wrok out the best moves for it to make in order to win. Like so many threads i have read i cannot and do not have the time to spend an entire day preparing and playing a match to such a length that i may have a half chance of winning.

It seems to me that unless you play a certain way (i.e. how the AI plays) then you cant ever win anything, and thus waht is the point in the game?! If you find a winning formular (and i aint expecting to win every game) in one version of the game then it should carry on to other versions, but it never does. (In FM2008 i had a decent tactic with Tottenham, didnt actually win any silverwear but got to league cup final in first year, UEFA final in 2nd year and got 4th in prem to qualify for champs league, so it was not half bad).

I also have serious issue with the 3D match engine. soooooo many errors with the ball bouncing off players (usaully your own) and even had a player kick the ball, sorry BLAST the ball, into his own net when he was not under pressure and all he had to do was clear it. yes players make mistakes but this was a joke, the AI players NEVER do this.

As i said at beginning if you want to shoot me down after this rant then go ahead but i did say this thread was not for you.

Anyway it would be interesting to hear what other unhappy player think.

Paragraphs are needed here.

If a tactic is logical it will transfer between FMs - i am using basically the same tactic from FM07, the reason it works is because it isn't designed, knowingly or otherwise, to exploit an error in the ME. It is possible that your 08 tactic was exploiting a problem, rather than being of sound design.

Unfortunately if you insist the AI cheats then i'm not going to bother trying to reason with the rest of your points, experience has shown me there's just no point. You know best after all....

No offence, but you are pretty idiotic to be using an outdated patch and complaining about the game.

Why do you only want people who agree with you to post in this thread?

Have read TF and its is a great piece of writing, however it does add a strong backing to my belief that there is really only one way to play the game and any deviation will result in failure.

On a relating note to the comments about dipping in and out, i wonder how long on average a person takes preparing for one particular game and in fact playing each game (someone said in another post that they watch the entire 90 minute match to get an idea of what is going right and what is going wrong, a very good idea but who has that sort of time on their hands?)

I can see where you are coming from. I'm still studying the guide while roaming the forums, always on the hunt for a great hint. While in my first 2 saves I was highly unsuccessful implementing a working tactics in Conference, I have to say after reflecting and comparing to my new save, I made major mistakes/was not aware of some facts any team in RL would have problems with, too.

1. My squads were below average (attributes/quality).

2. I tried compensating for bringing in too many new/better players again and again.

3. Which resulted in the team not settling in

4. I used 1 tactical approach for all situations disregarding opponents basic tactical approach (home/away i did the same tactics) and would "adjust" too often and to big scale.

Don't know about you, but it is worth to take in account the different aspects, which I'm sure are true to life. If that's "fun" or not for a video game - each of us has to decide.

i don't consider myself to be one of the 'fm god-squad' or whatever, (or any sort of tactical genius for that matter) because i do believe there are some problems (some major, some minor) with the game. But i cannot agree that you need to completely re-work your tactics in every version or patch. My reason for this is two-fold. Firstly, i have used practically the same basic tactical philosophy and set ups for my teams since i began playing in fm 2007. they were successful then and are still successful now. They do evolve over time as the ME's 'representation' of football changes (ie changes to closing down etc etc), but the basic elements remain the same. i don't ever try to create or copy a 'super tactic' but base mine around real football principles plus some trial/error taking in whatever changes have occurred with successive versions. Yes it takes some time and thought, but this is the precise reason why i love playing this game (despite its limitations). previously i would play 'easy' football games like EA etc and wish that there was a more in depth and challenging game out there.

Secondly, even a casual visit to either the tactics or good teams threads will provide a great deal of evidence that there are many different players playing with many different tactical set ups and all still generating success. While you (and many others) are having trouble doing this, there are a large number of players doing the opposite. If this is so, how can the game be 'impossibly difficult' as your OP suggests?

My advice (for what its worth if you choose to take it) is a) accept that at the end of the day this is a computer game that has its faults. Learn what these are and find ways of minimising (or ignoring) their impacts;

b) sepnd some time in the tactics forum, post details about your tactics and ask for help. My experience has been taht constructive requests are always responded to with constructive responses; OR

c) if you don't want to do either of these, then just don't buy the game ever again.

Why do you only want people who agree with you to post in this thread?

A lot of ranters will use words like "fanboys" (though "holy FM god squad" is a new one on me) and they will tell people who disagree with them to keep away. It's a feature of General Discussion that some people simply won't accept being disagreed with and will resort to the kind of nonsense the aforementioned terms embody.

Personally, I was amused by the idea that it would be interesting to hear what other unhappy users think. You don't need a new thread for that.