Dealing with those pesky defensive possession heavy sides

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, Keyzer Soze said:

No. I think @herne79 said that if the 4123 DM is not working for you, then use a different aproach.

Any tactic, and style of play, can work in FM, but of course you need the right players to deal with it. I'm sure, for example if you only have two strikers in your squad you're not gonna choose a tactic like 442. Or for example if you don't have wingers in your squad your not gonna choose a wing play style.

Many users insist in using a certain tactic, or style of play, but forget doing a basic analysis of the team they are managing: Do i have the players to play with this tactic and this style of play?

Yeah exactly. It's usually a shape that works best with very good technical teams anyway.

[herne79]

10 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

So you are saying if 4-1-2-3DM is not working in the game, then just avoid it?

No, I did not say that:

26 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I'm not saying the 4123DM can't work (it can) but if you are struggling then change it.  My point is if something doesn't work, find creative ways to adapt.

Those creative ways could be a change of formation - or it could be adjusting in other areas.  This is all about ideas and suggestions, so if you have any (other than "wait for FM21") please do chip in.

[crusadertsar]

@herne79 sure very good suggestions Hope they work for @Haribo1681

Edited August 28, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Haribo1681]

29 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Looking purely at that one match you posted above, imo your main issue was your lack of shots on target - just 5 out of 20.  If you are typically seeing such returns that's a big problem which needs addressing.

If their defenders are doing that then I'm afraid they are not being put under effective pressure high up the pitch.  Watch the match back over, what are your players actually doing during these phases of play?  What's their positioning like?  Upload a pkm of the match if you like.

I also want to ask if you (or anyone) consistently has an issue with a particular formation, why stick religiously to that formation?  Would it be more effective if - on occasion - you pushed Havertz up to the AMC position with Camavinga moving up to the MC line to form a 4231 instead?  Or going 442, or anything else for that matter.  I wrote about player positioning in the opening post, so if the 4123DM isn't giving you the player positioning you want, why use it?  I'm not saying the 4123DM can't work (it can) but if you are struggling then change it.  My point is if something doesn't work, find creative ways to adapt.  That's not "micromanaging", that's efficient and effective use of the tools available to us - be creative and think outside the box .

The team is usually quite threatening with the limited possession it has, so more often that not we do enough to win games - hence being top of the league at this stage and having won a few trophies along the way. The issue for me isn't the results, it's the disconnect between the tactics being set up and how games actually pan out.

I have tried different formations - especially 4-2-3-1 and I'd prefer to play that way as I think it should put Havertz and Camavinga in their best/most effective positions - but I've been using 4-3-3 like this because of the lack of possession, thinking this might help (it hasn't so far). I've occasionally switched to a 4-2-4 to throw the kitchen sink at sides late on and that's been occasionally successful but I wouldn't want to use it too often. Also, in a 4-2-3-1 Havertz was completely ineffective, so I've chosen to compromise with 4-3-3 to try and get him more involved. I don't feel wedded to 4-3-3 because I don't need the protection for my back four - they are never threatened by the eternal AI ping-pong.

It's fine to suggest being more creative to find solutions, but at this point it very much feels like everything tried previously has made no difference but the team continues to win enough to meet objectives, so my involvement is unnecessary. If the team was struggling using my preferred tactics then the challenge would be to find solutions - however, it feels as though the aim is no longer to try and score and goals and win matches; instead it's finding the formula that makes matches more realistic and brings my involvement some value. I'm not looking for total possession domination or huge stats for the sake of it - I just want to get enough of the ball to make use of my most creative/effective players and play an attractive, front-foot style. Or, if I decide to go in a different direction and play a lower block, soak up pressure and counter attack, for that to be possible - but it feels a lot like whatever approach I choose is irrelevant if the AI goes for it's low-risk, high possession approach.

More than happy to share some pkms as, despite my petulance, I do appreciate the input - here's a few of my recent games; the match with Mainz was the switch 'back to basics', where I selected a higher line of engagement and more urgent pressing with lower mentality in favour of a split block.

Borussia Dortmund v VfB Stuttgart.pkm Borussia Dortmund v 1.FC Köln.pkm Fortuna Düsseldorf v Borussia Dortmund.pkm Borussia Dortmund v 1.FSV Mainz 05.pkm

[Malkael]

It's moments like these where the ability to train three different tactics, presuming you care about maximising tactical familiarity at all, comes in handy for certain formations. Sometimes you just need to get real aggressive with the standard 4-1-2-3 and shift the middle three up a strata so it is a 4-1(cm)-2(AMCL\R)-3. It's all about being able to get really tight to the opposition's players and quickly pressure them for the ball back if we turn it over in the final third due to a goal attempt or the ball going loose.

If we're camping in the opposition's final third, I'm usually fine with the risk of going extra aggressive because typically all that ends up coming out is hurried clearances that we regularly mop up easily to progress back into the danger zone. Alternatively, just go full Marcelo Bielsa and man-mark everyone across the pitch for better or worse...

So, uh, yeah, backing off ain't exactly my middle name as you can clearly see, at least not when I'm going for a high pressing tactic, it's in for a penny in for a pound with me.

[herne79]

@Haribo1681  Thanks for the pkms.  As you highlighted the Mainz one above, I watched that.

Take a look at the clip below.  It shows 1 and a half minutes of Mainz possession mid way through the first half which I guess relates to your original post above about banging your head against the wall.

First of all, your goalie is wasting too much possession.  If he's not kicking it out for a throw in, he's giving it away - check the first couple of seconds of the clip.

Anyway, up until this point in the match you'd actually been playing really well.  Lots of good pressure, a few chances, keeping the ball nicely and using it well (apart from the keeper ).  But I want to highlight this particular clip because personally I don't think it's as bad as it may appear.

Mainz are clearly playing with the play out of defence TI, but they are still trying to pass forwards when they can.  Yes sometimes they do pass it around the back 4 or even back to the keeper, but that's because of your midfield press.  You're effectively blocking passing lanes and putting the ball carrier under pressure in midfield.  So they pass backwards to recycle possession rather than lose it.  When that happens, your poor old striker is running round like a headless chicken because he's essentially your only player positioned effectively to apply pressure and their defenders give him the run around.

Now don't get me wrong, I can see ME issues here but I can also see with some better player positioning you may be able to relieve at least some of the issue.  I don't just want to talk about changing Mentality here (although that is an option) as I think your striker's isolation is a bigger concern.  I'm also unsure about your player's attributes, especially relating to Aggression, Determination and Work Rate (Stamina would also have an impact especially towards the end of a match) as imo those 3 are very important when talking about pressing the opposition.

Anyway, positioning (what I mentioned back in the opening post).  Now ok switching to a 4231 is possible, but if sticking with the 4123DM then optionally asking one (or both) wide players to sit narrower and/or giving Havertz an attack duty may help your players be better positioned to help out poor lonely Camisa.  Likewise switching your BBM to a BWM (support) may help encourage that player to get stuck in better.  Camisa himself may even benefit from being given the Pressing Forward role instead of a CF.

Essentially what you're looking to do is try to encourage their defenders to play long(er) balls out from the back with the intention of your players intercepting and either counter attacking or having a bit of possession themselves.  At the moment you are pressing well, just kind of in the wrong areas if that makes any sense.

Now don't get me wrong, these are by no means "do this to win" options.  They're just ideas which may (or may not!) help and is certainly not an exhaustive list.  If others watch the clip they may have different ideas.  In all honesty I think the 4123DM formation is a bit harder to nail in FM20 that previously, but by no means impossible.  I think there is room for some improvement in some of your roles and duties, especially when factoring in player Traits and their attributes (eg., I don't think Havertz has the gets forward often Trait so combined with his support duty and a non-aggressive Mentality such as Balanced isn't encouraging him forward too much).

By way of example, here's my 4123DM I used to beat Man City 2-0 with my elite West Ham team using the same principles outlined in the threads mentioned in the OP.  Don't copy the system as it's tailored for my players and I will tweak during a match if needed, but compare with yours and think about the differences (ignore the 2 stopper duties at the back, that's me messing about):

 

[crusadertsar]

29 minutes ago, herne79 said:

@Haribo1681  Thanks for the pkms.  As you highlighted the Mainz one above, I watched that.

Take a look at the clip below.  It shows 1 and a half minutes of Mainz possession mid way through the first half which I guess relates to your original post above about banging your head against the wall.

First of all, your goalie is wasting too much possession.  If he's not kicking it out for a throw in, he's giving it away - check the first couple of seconds of the clip.

Anyway, up until this point in the match you'd actually been playing really well.  Lots of good pressure, a few chances, keeping the ball nicely and using it well (apart from the keeper ).  But I want to highlight this particular clip because personally I don't think it's as bad as it may appear.

Mainz are clearly playing with the play out of defence TI, but they are still trying to pass forwards when they can.  Yes sometimes they do pass it around the back 4 or even back to the keeper, but that's because of your midfield press.  You're effectively blocking passing lanes and putting the ball carrier under pressure in midfield.  So they pass backwards to recycle possession rather than lose it.  When that happens, your poor old striker is running round like a headless chicken because he's essentially your only player positioned effectively to apply pressure and their defenders give him the run around.

Now don't get me wrong, I can see ME issues here but I can also see with some better player positioning you may be able to relieve at least some of the issue.  I don't just want to talk about changing Mentality here (although that is an option) as I think your striker's isolation is a bigger concern.  I'm also unsure about your player's attributes, especially relating to Aggression, Determination and Work Rate (Stamina would also have an impact especially towards the end of a match) as imo those 3 are very important when talking about pressing the opposition.

Anyway, positioning (what I mentioned back in the opening post).  Now ok switching to a 4231 is possible, but if sticking with the 4123DM then optionally asking one (or both) wide players to sit narrower and/or giving Havertz an attack duty may help your players be better positioned to help out poor lonely Camisa.  Likewise switching your BBM to a BWM (support) may help encourage that player to get stuck in better.  Camisa himself may even benefit from being given the Pressing Forward role instead of a CF.

Essentially what you're looking to do is try to encourage their defenders to play long(er) balls out from the back with the intention of your players intercepting and either counter attacking or having a bit of possession themselves.  At the moment you are pressing well, just kind of in the wrong areas if that makes any sense.

Now don't get me wrong, these are by no means "do this to win" options.  They're just ideas which may (or may not!) help and is certainly not an exhaustive list.  If others watch the clip they may have different ideas.  In all honesty I think the 4123DM formation is a bit harder to nail in FM20 that previously, but by no means impossible.  I think there is room for some improvement in some of your roles and duties, especially when factoring in player Traits and their attributes (eg., I don't think Havertz has the gets forward often Trait so combined with his support duty and a non-aggressive Mentality such as Balanced isn't encouraging him forward too much).

By way of example, here's my 4123DM I used to beat Man City 2-0 with my elite West Ham team using the same principles outlined in the threads mentioned in the OP.  Don't copy the system as it's tailored for my players and I will tweak during a match if needed, but compare with yours and think about the differences:

 

Thank you

[Experienced Defender]

18 hours ago, zlatanera said:

So whilst I can intuit what you mean by overkill, surely for a possession-based side the use of pressing and PSGKD makes sense?

Yes, if you view it purely from the possession perspective. But then it leads to a well-known issue of denying yourself space in attack by pinning the opposition too much into their already deep and compact defensive shell. So as always, it ultimately boils down to finding the right balance of being sufficiently aggressive but not to the extent that deprives you of any meaningful space. It's not to say that you cannot break down defensive opposition if you are overly aggressive when defending. Of course you can. But such tactics are more difficult to set up properly, which is why less experienced tacticians usually struggle. 

Not to mention people who do manage to break down those stubborn defenses, but still complain that most of their goals come from long shots or crosses or set-pieces (as opposed to killer through balls following a nice interchange of passes). 

[Haribo1681]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

@Haribo1681  Thanks for the pkms.  As you highlighted the Mainz one above, I watched that.

Take a look at the clip below.  It shows 1 and a half minutes of Mainz possession mid way through the first half which I guess relates to your original post above about banging your head against the wall.

First of all, your goalie is wasting too much possession.  If he's not kicking it out for a throw in, he's giving it away - check the first couple of seconds of the clip.

Anyway, up until this point in the match you'd actually been playing really well.  Lots of good pressure, a few chances, keeping the ball nicely and using it well (apart from the keeper ).  But I want to highlight this particular clip because personally I don't think it's as bad as it may appear.

Mainz are clearly playing with the play out of defence TI, but they are still trying to pass forwards when they can.  Yes sometimes they do pass it around the back 4 or even back to the keeper, but that's because of your midfield press.  You're effectively blocking passing lanes and putting the ball carrier under pressure in midfield.  So they pass backwards to recycle possession rather than lose it.  When that happens, your poor old striker is running round like a headless chicken because he's essentially your only player positioned effectively to apply pressure and their defenders give him the run around.

Now don't get me wrong, I can see ME issues here but I can also see with some better player positioning you may be able to relieve at least some of the issue.  I don't just want to talk about changing Mentality here (although that is an option) as I think your striker's isolation is a bigger concern.  I'm also unsure about your player's attributes, especially relating to Aggression, Determination and Work Rate (Stamina would also have an impact especially towards the end of a match) as imo those 3 are very important when talking about pressing the opposition.

Anyway, positioning (what I mentioned back in the opening post).  Now ok switching to a 4231 is possible, but if sticking with the 4123DM then optionally asking one (or both) wide players to sit narrower and/or giving Havertz an attack duty may help your players be better positioned to help out poor lonely Camisa.  Likewise switching your BBM to a BWM (support) may help encourage that player to get stuck in better.  Camisa himself may even benefit from being given the Pressing Forward role instead of a CF.

Essentially what you're looking to do is try to encourage their defenders to play long(er) balls out from the back with the intention of your players intercepting and either counter attacking or having a bit of possession themselves.  At the moment you are pressing well, just kind of in the wrong areas if that makes any sense.

Now don't get me wrong, these are by no means "do this to win" options.  They're just ideas which may (or may not!) help and is certainly not an exhaustive list.  If others watch the clip they may have different ideas.  In all honesty I think the 4123DM formation is a bit harder to nail in FM20 that previously, but by no means impossible.  I think there is room for some improvement in some of your roles and duties, especially when factoring in player Traits and their attributes (eg., I don't think Havertz has the gets forward often Trait so combined with his support duty and a non-aggressive Mentality such as Balanced isn't encouraging him forward too much).

By way of example, here's my 4123DM I used to beat Man City 2-0 with my elite West Ham team using the same principles outlined in the threads mentioned in the OP.  Don't copy the system as it's tailored for my players and I will tweak during a match if needed, but compare with yours and think about the differences:

 

ice_video_20200828-155535.webm

Thank you for this - I totally appreciate you taking time to look into a game situation that you have no actual connection to!

There's some really great observations here - especially around the way the team presses and their attributes - looking a bit more closely, determination and work rate aren't issues but aggression is fairly average across the board, which I guess could impact their ability to chase the ball down.

In terms of formations and roles, my ideal setup would be a 4-2-3-1 with Havertz as AM (ideally APs) and Camisa as AFa, but I've found in the past that this completely nullifies the AML (but not the AMR, randomly) and despite being in his 'best' position and role, Havertz has zero involvement in games. If anything, he becomes mostly useful in this area in a defensive capacity, limiting the AI's ability to recycle possession through the DM.

I'd also prefer to play a BWM in CM, especially in a 4-2-3-1 to a) provide Havertz more room in AM and b) be a bit more aggressive in the CM area, but I'm not sure either Camavinga or Rojas are either brave or aggressive enough for this role, unfortunately, so I'd probably end up playing Camavinga as a CMd and Rojas as CMs. Something like the attached.  In an ideal world, I'd want the AML and AMR to tuck in and play almost like a front 3 with the AF, then the two FBs push up to support midfield, offer width allow for patient recycling of possession until an opportunity arises - but I'm conscious that having the RB on support might leave us a bit predictable in attack so I tend to go with him on an attack duty to fit in with the conventional wisdom around combing wide player roles and duties.

[herne79]

25 minutes ago, Haribo1681 said:

I'd also prefer to play a BWM in CM, especially in a 4-2-3-1 to a) provide Havertz more room in AM and b) be a bit more aggressive in the CM area, but I'm not sure either Camavinga or Rojas are either brave or aggressive enough for this role, unfortunately, so I'd probably end up playing Camavinga as a CMd and Rojas as CMs. Something like the attached.  In an ideal world, I'd want the AML and AMR to tuck in and play almost like a front 3 with the AF, then the two FBs push up to support midfield, offer width allow for patient recycling of possession until an opportunity arises - but I'm conscious that having the RB on support might leave us a bit predictable in attack so I tend to go with him on an attack duty to fit in with the conventional wisdom around combing wide player roles and duties.

Don't talk yourself out of something until you've actually tried it.  Use a test save to try things out if you're afraid of messing up your actual game .  And I wouldn't worry too much about conventional wisdom, that's only ever a starting point .

[Experienced Defender]

30 minutes ago, Haribo1681 said:

@Haribo1681 If you look carefully at this tactic, you'll notice that it's possession-friendly only in terms of instructions. However, when you consider roles and duties, you can see that the right flank is very crossing-heavy (with a winger and WB on attack) whereas the left flank lacks sufficient wide support due to a relatively conservative fullback and holding CM behind the IW. Just swapping your fullbacks' respective roles/duties would make a notable difference for the better. Although the lone striker may still suffer from isolation, given his role (AF) relative to those behind him. 

[Haribo1681]

16 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Don't talk yourself out of something until you've actually tried it.  Use a test save to try things out if you're afraid of messing up your actual game .  And I wouldn't worry too much about conventional wisdom, that's only ever a starting point .

Very true - although the issue to this point hasn't been so much giving something a try, more that I have an idea of how I'd like to play then I get stuck watching the AI play 1,001 passes in their own penalty area!

[Haribo1681]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@Haribo1681 If you look carefully at this tactic, you'll notice that it's possession-friendly only in terms of instructions. However, when you consider roles and duties, you can see that the right flank is very crossing-heavy (with a winger and WB on attack) whereas the left flank lacks sufficient wide support due to a relatively conservative fullback and holding CM behind the IW. Just swapping your fullbacks' respective roles/duties would make a notable difference for the better. Although the lone striker may still suffer from isolation, given his role (AF) relative to those behind him. 

To be honest, I prefer an IW to the W on the right, but I fear this might leave the 3 AMs and AF fighting for the same space. I'd rather have an IW with the overlapping WBa providing width. I then tend to go with FBs on the left for balance, but I wouldn't be adverse to a more aggressive role in this area if it were effective.

[RCCook]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yes, if you view it purely from the possession perspective. But then it leads to a well-known issue of denying yourself space in attack by pinning the opposition too much into their already deep and compact defensive shell. So as always, it ultimately boils down to finding the right balance of being sufficiently aggressive but not to the extent that deprives you of any meaningful space. It's not to say that you cannot break down defensive opposition if you are overly aggressive when defending. Of course you can. But such tactics are more difficult to set up properly, which is why less experienced tacticians usually struggle. 

Not to mention people who do manage to break down those stubborn defenses, but still complain that most of their goals come from long shots or crosses or set-pieces (as opposed to killer through balls following a nice interchange of passes). 

Agreed. I use a higher line/standard LOE combo with "get stuck in," but since I removed the more urgent pressing and prevent short GK distribution, I've found that my attackers have a lot more room to run and create good scoring opportunities. Not to mention less problems with those long passes over the top from the opposition. 

[zlatanera]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yes, if you view it purely from the possession perspective. But then it leads to a well-known issue of denying yourself space in attack by pinning the opposition too much into their already deep and compact defensive shell. So as always, it ultimately boils down to finding the right balance of being sufficiently aggressive but not to the extent that deprives you of any meaningful space. It's not to say that you cannot break down defensive opposition if you are overly aggressive when defending. Of course you can. But such tactics are more difficult to set up properly, which is why less experienced tacticians usually struggle. 

Not to mention people who do manage to break down those stubborn defenses, but still complain that most of their goals come from long shots or crosses or set-pieces (as opposed to killer through balls following a nice interchange of passes). 

Okay, cheers for explaining your logic.

I actually see that issue sometimes on FM19 with my current Roma save. Napoli for some reason are full tiki-taka with Fatih Terim but their heat maps versus me show a lot of deep possession as my extremely mobile front three keep the defence moving. I think its worth it because I love seeing an attacker make an interception, burst through and then round the keeper, but it appears on FM20 I might be less pleased.

[RCCook]

Any ideas on how to counter a team that not only plays defensive possession-heavy football, but combines it with a ferocious press? Been encountering a ton of teams playing this way against me the past half-season, and finding it very hard to score, much less win. I've tried a few solutions with mixed success, but nothing that's working consistently.

Here's how I usually set up- only PI's are Move Into Channels/Roam From Position on the AMC:

Edited September 6, 2020 by RCCook

[karanhsingh]

On the flip side, does anyone have any tips on how to do this to the bigger sides? I have had games where I will go 1 goal up against a City or a United, and I want to then keep the ball and frustrate them.

Even playing on defensive, lowering tempo all the way down etc. doesn't seem to work. While the AI seems to have mastered this tactic, my team is unable to ever do it!

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, RCCook said:

Any ideas on how to counter a team that not only plays defensive possession-heavy football, but combines it with a ferocious press? Been encountering a ton of teams playing this way against me the past half-season, and finding it very hard to score, much less win. I've tried a few solutions with mixed success, but nothing that's working consistently.

Here's how I usually set up- only PI's are Move Into Channels/Roam From Position on the AMC:

You'll be much more likely to get some proper help and advice if you start your own separate thread. 

Unless you want the advice specifically from  @herne79 as the creator of this topic 

[V3ntricity]

what does mentality actually do? it seems counter-intuitive to me that you can play "cautious" and yet dominate possession as long as you press and play with a high line.

 if you are "cautious" or "defensive" then playing like that makes no sense intuitively. So that means playing "attacking" mentality should be done with a low line and little pressing? it's crazy design. Just remove the mentality option to mean "risk", if that would be more correct?.

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by V3ntricity

[herne79]

1 hour ago, V3ntricity said:

what does mentality actually do? it seems counter-intuitive to me that you can play "cautious" and yet dominate possession as long as you press and play with a high line.

 if you are "cautious" or "defensive" then playing like that makes no sense intuitively. So that means playing "attacking" mentality should be done with a low line and little pressing? it's crazy design. Just remove the mentality option to mean "risk", if that would be more correct?.

 

 

 

imo the naming of each Mentality can be misleading.  You can play defensively using the Attacking mentality, just as you can be attacking using the Defensive mentality - it comes down to the rest of your set up.  I appreciate the game leads us down that path - and it's perfectly valid to follow that path (the AI does after all) - we just need to understand how all settings fit together and not just focus on one aspect (in this case Mentality).

Mentality essentially sets a whole bunch of Team Instructions and alters your player's individual mentalities (which can be seen in their Player Instructions screen) to be more or less forward thinking.  It's to do with risk - it sets out how much risk your team is willing to take which can then be adjusted by the rest of your system.  So for example set the Attacking mentality and give your Wingback an attack duty and you've basically created a winger who'll probably get caught high up the pitch often. Very risky.  Now give that same Wingback a Defend duty and he'll still get forward (although not as much) and be more defensively solid.  Less risky.

This can be one of the reasons why people might get "FM'd" btw.

[andu1]

I usually ask my 2 central midfielders to man mark the oppositions 2 central midfielders.  I can't say for sure that it may work for everyone but it works for my team.

 

[CaptCanuck]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

imo the naming of each Mentality can be misleading.  You can play defensively using the Attacking mentality, just as you can be attacking using the Defensive mentality - it comes down to the rest of your set up.  I appreciate the game leads us down that path - and it's perfectly valid to follow that path (the AI does after all) - we just need to understand how all settings fit together and not just focus on one aspect (in this case Mentality).

Mentality essentially sets a whole bunch of Team Instructions and alters your player's individual mentalities (which can be seen in their Player Instructions screen) to be more or less forward thinking.  It's to do with risk - it sets out how much risk your team is willing to take which can then be adjusted by the rest of your system.  So for example set the Attacking mentality and give your Wingback an attack duty and you've basically created a winger who'll probably get caught high up the pitch often. Very risky.  Now give that same Wingback a Defend duty and he'll still get forward (although not as much) and be more defensively solid.  Less risky.

This can be one of the reasons why people might get "FM'd" btw.

Nice examples and analysis here and above :-) I also think the naming paired up with role suggestions can cause trouble too for people reading through various threads. Saying you need to have a formula of staggered A's, S's, and D's doesn't literally mean that, in regards to mentality and role duties, depending on that mentality. As you rightly point out, that's a quick way to 'double positives' or 'double negatives'.

That said I do still finding it annoying that a tactic/formation that can turnover Barca and Mancity over a combined four legs, cannot see me past West Brom with the same level of confidence ;-)

[sherifdinn_]

On 21/08/2020 at 16:25, herne79 said:

This is how Wycombe lined up against me recently:

So a "defensive" 4411 with 2 defensiv

The irony of seeing this kind of system is that I used this (quite prolifically) in UCL knockout games when I wanted to protect an advantage. 4-2-3-1 (cm) but with defend duties. And boy! did I always get results.