A 16/17 Monaco-inspired 442

[zlatanera]

Welcome to my first real tactic thread! Although Manchester United are my favourite team, I've always found that I need some sort of theme or tactical idea to work towards to stick with a save past about 6 months. Last year I decided to finally embrace the Target Man in a 433, so this year I was looking for something different. 442 was the go-to for one of United's biggest periods of dominance (1993-2001), and one of the best teams of recent years that I haven't seen a replication of was Leonardo Jardim's title-winning Monaco team, who also played a 442. An article positing Jardim as the next manager of Manchester United was enough to get me to work.

Sources

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2017/09/19/tactical-philosophy-leonardo-jardim/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/05/03/four-simple-tactics-monaco-do-exceptionally/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPnDLpaDUWc&t=4s

https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2018/11/30/18120032/the-next-manager-of-manchester-united-leonardo-jardim

 

This is the line-up I'm basing my recreation on:

From the sources listed I came up with these ideas to aim for in my tactic:

- Out of possession using quite a tight marking scheme, defending narrowly, with CMs sometimes even dropping on to the opposition strikers. 

- Falcao's off the ball movement being key, opening up space for Mbappe who roams around picking up the ball to run at defenders.

- Wingers often being quite narrow in the build-up, with very offensive full backs willing to get forward on the outside (or occasionally inside)

- CMs taking it turns to get forward, and in the build-up one dropping into defence to bring the ball forward.

- A willingness to recycle possession in defence until space opens up for a long diagonal to start an attack.

- A focus on set pieces: in the first four games of 2017-18 they scored 14 goals, 10 from set pieces.

 

The Tactic

The wide roles I was uncertain about and the in the end I just looked at Bernardo Silva and Thomas Lemar on the game and concluded that Wide Playmaker and Winger with players given similar traits would be the best way to replicate them. Likewise with the CMs I considered one HB and one SV, or one DLP and one BBM, before settling on two SVs and relying on the intelligence of my expensively acquired midfielders to sort it out amongst themselves. I try to have only one of Pogba and Gedson Fernandes on the field at the same time as they both have the "Gets Into Opposition Area" trait. The duty of the full backs was another issue - At was too offensive, Su too defensive so I settled on Su with Overlap to get a mentality approximately halfway between the two. The CDs are given personalised instructions - the combos tend to be BPD-De - BPD-Co, BPD-De-BPD-St, BPD-Co-BPD-St or BPD-De-BPD-De. 

I'm not promising this will work with every team, I've spent £400m over three transfer windows but the results were good - Premier League and Champions League winners in the first season despite missing Alexis Sanchez for 6 months. Early season 2 this is the squad:

 

Player Traits

In preparation for this tactic I loaded up my research save (All leagues loaded, large database, no attribute masking, will never press continue as it will kill my laptop) and got all of the XI from the Tifo Football graphic at the top's traits and footedness. I'd try to mould my players towards these archetypes, but make exceptions (not that keen on all of Fabinho and Bakayoko's traits, and I like to have a spare CM with no traits and a versatile wide player with traits applicable to both RM and LM). Bold are the ones I think are essential.

GK (Subasic): none

RB (Sidibe): Runs With Ball Down Right / Gets Forward Whenever Possible / Plays One-Twos / Knocks Ball Past Opponent

CB (Glik): Marks Opponent Tightly / Dives Into Tackles / Runs With Ball Rarely

CB (Jemerson): Marks Opponent Tightly / Tries To Play Way Out Of Trouble

LB (Mendy): Runs With Ball Down Left / Gets Forward Whenever Possible / Plays One-Twos / Avoids Using Weaker Foot

RM (Bernardo Silva): Gets Into Opposition Area / Comes Deep To Get Ball / Dictates Tempo / Tries To Play Way Out Of Trouble / Dives Into Tackles / Cuts Inside From Both Wings / Runs With Ball Often

RCM (Fabinho): Gets Into Opposition Area / Plays One-Twos / Knocks Ball Past Opponent / Tries To Play Way Out Of Trouble / Tries Long Range Passes

LCM (Bakayoko): Plays Short Simple Passes / Shoots With Power / Does Not Dive Into Tackles

LM (Lemar): Gets Into Opposition Area / Shoots From Distance / Curls Ball / Cuts Inside From Both Wings / Runs With Ball Often

RST (Falcao): Places Shots / Curls Ball / Attempts Overhead Kicks / Tries First Time Shots

LST (Mbappe): Curls Ball / Cuts Inside From Both Wings / Runs With Ball Often

 

Set Pieces

Credit where credit's due: I don't make my own set pieces because whilst I enjoy scoring off them I don't enjoy thinking about them much. I use these setups, adapted to my own players:

https://strikerless.com/2018/11/05/corner-kicks-in-fm19/

https://strikerless.com/2018/11/19/defending-corners-and-other-set-pieces/

The long throw setup posted on that site is also really good, but I simply don't have anyone good at taking them. 

 I can't access the set piece stats from the first season, but in the current season we've scored 28 goals in 9 games, 4 from Corners, 3 from Direct Free Kicks and 1 from an Indirect Free kick. The total is likely higher than the stats show, given I don't think it counts as a goal from a corner if it isn't literally the first touch off the corner that goes in (i.e. if someone heads the corner back across goal for a team-mate to finish it doesn't count as a corner goal).

 

Save Progress

For the attempt with this tactic before I broke my laptop and the ME was updated, as well as any extras I posted check out the Manchester United team thread. But I'll link my season summaries here so people can see how the tactic has worked out.

Season 1

Season 2

 

 

[zlatanera]

The game I chose to try show off the tactic was a home tie against Spurs - the first game back after the October international break (because I forgot to do it on the Chelsea tie just before the break). I don't recall where they were in the league standings, we were top, but they've not lost any key players whilst making key reinforcements over the three transfer windows of the save.

Daniele Rugani (perhaps best CB in the game? Not injury prone or keen to pick up cards) was tired from the international break, making way for Tuanzebe, and Lingard and Thomas (regen) weren't fit for the LM slot so Pereira came in, but otherwise full strength teams from both sides.

2'

 

 

 After a minute we had a throw...

Shaw took the throw to Martial (CF), but we lost possession almost immediately...

As Eriksen drove into the centre field you can see we've dropped into 2 banks of four, with the full backs very narrow and CF dropping onto Medel in the midfield whilst Lukaku stays forward for the out-ball. Kanté presses Eriksen, who has no decent options, leading him to try to find Kane...

BPD Tuanzebe anticipates the pass, sees Lukaku has wide open spaces either side of him and with his first touch plays a ball forward into the channels on the right...

Lukaku easily out-paces Vertonghen, receives the ball and drives into the box. As this was a quick turnover our midfield and defence are still fairly flat, although I would have liked to see Tuanzebe perhaps drop off sooner in case we lost possession (perhaps he could just see what was coming).

A great cross from Lukaku allows Martial to volley home in the bottom left corner, 1-0!

 

 

 

 

Intelligent DMs?

 

 

Here Spurs have a goal kick, and although I have Prevent Short GK Distribution ticked our bottom-heavy formation means Martial and Lukaku have decided to just mark spaces. Our defence is very narrow and the two DMs have sat quite deep, so Lloris seeks out Davinson Sanchez on the right

Immediately Martial leads the press, and we've blocked off all the easy options, so Sanchez elects to punt down the right for Aspas

An easy recovery for Shaw, and now we attack again

Kanté and Pogba exchanged passes a few times, a couple of turnovers of possession led Mata to feed Kanté centrally in the final third. He drives towards the box and gets a shot off. Pereira and Mata are both quite narrow with the full backs motoring up the field out wide. Pogba stays a few yards behind Kanté, perhaps fighting against his Gets Into Opposition Area trait. 

Kanté's shot was blocked and came out wide to Shaw. Kanté continued into the box to join our strikers and wingers, whilst Pogba has dropped slightly to offer Shaw an inside option (should have perhaps had a screenshot 2 secs later) and make sure we don't leave Alli too much space if there is a counter.

In the end, Shaw's cross was met by Lukaku whose header nearly went out for a throw rather than a goal kick.

 

 

 

CWBs

 

 

I can't remember how we got here, but Vertonghen has the ball and Lukaku is pressing him - as a left-footed player he really has no options except trying to play to Rose out wide or perhaps Eriksen (#10). As it is, Lukaku tackles him, but is forced to turn back into his own half...eventually the ball finds its way out wide on the left.

Here we have LM Pereira cutting in off the left to attempt a cross. Lukaku is behind the play though, and it won't come off. Notice that for now, our full backs are wider than the wide midfielders (Mata is the RM, just about to get into the box).

As Pereira's cross went right through the box, Mata sprinted out right to recover the ball. Lukaku is now our most advanced player, and Pogba and Kanté have both got into the box. RB Semedo (#3) and LB Shaw (#23) have come much narrower, almost positioned where you'd expect IWBs to be. 

Mata eventually finds Shaw, who drives towards the right of the D before getting a shot off - on target, but never worrying Lloris. Still, this variation in play from the CWBs probably leads to 10 goals a season as they either manage to score, or play an assists (or pre-assist, Tierney is less one-footed and I've seen him manage to turn and play it out to Pereira from this situation).

 

 

 

 

Just a couple of interesting screen grabs showing how the tactic plays

 

 

I just like how narrow we are here - Trippier is being doubled up, our RB is marking in the box, and RM (#29) is also central as Trippier trying to find Rose on the left isn't much of a risky. We have numerical superiority where its needed and leave the spaces that aren't dangerous.

This move progressed from our goal kick I think, I though I needed to show an overlap to go with the Shaw shot move. I like the asymmetry here - Semedo played a one-two with Mata to get down the field, so Mata is only slightly more advanced than Shaw on the left. Pereira meanwhile has advanced into the box to get any back post delivery. 

Finally, I just like how weird our play out from a goal kick looks. The two Segundo Volante are where you'd expect the CBs to me, the CBs are where you'd expect the FBs to be, the RM / LM are in the half-spaces? (Maybe? Not great on my advanced terminology), and our strikers are right on the opposition CBs. It looks like we only really have one option in Pogba, but once he gets the ball and turns he'll have options and we'll move Spurs about a bit, or he can go over the top for one of my pacy attackers (Martial and Lukaku in this case, but also Memphis and Rashford) to chase.

 

 

 

 

[zlatanera]

The above formation is technically an evolution on an evolution of the tactic in the first post. In my 3rd season with Manchester United the double Segundo Volantes were moved up into the midfield as a DLP-Su on the right and BBM on the left in an attempt to get goals out of Pogba, and the W-At on the left became a WM-At with Sit Narrower and Roam From Position selected following feedback in this thread. That save was becoming almost too easy domestically however, so I decided to try and get the best out of Marco Reus at Dortmund.

The first change was to flip the midfield - at United I had an abundance of left-footed players and so the WP-At came in off the right whilst our wingers bombed down the left. Dortmund meanwhile have an abundance of right-footed attackers (in fact, there are no left-footed players for the WM, AM or ST positions in the starting squad), so the wide roles were switched, and then I swapped the midfield roles just to maintain a similar balance to the original. 

As Reus is a natural at AMC I knew I was going to play him as a Shadow Striker, and my initial thought was a 4411 with a DLF-Su ahead of him. However, I had to do something with Mario Götze and Shinji Kagawa, so a False Nine was chosen. If they were on top of each other I thought they might get in each other's way, so I offset the SS to the right and the F9 to the left, adding Move Into Channels and Roam From Position to really help him a) get out of Reus' way and b) get himself on the ball. Götze was trained with the "Comes Deep To Get Ball" trait to further accentuate the movement of the role. 

The results of this tactic can be found here, in the Bundesliga thread

Analysis may follow...

[westy8chimp]

A great team to try and emulate. I'm sold on any variation of 442. Good effort 

[zlatanera]

Edited the first post - added links to the set piece routines I'd copied as that's an element I'd completely forgotten to mention but is nevertheless important to the recreation.

[Jean0987654321]

If you are trying to emulate the movement of Lemar, you need to know that Runs with Ball Often won't do. Even Lemar himself has said that he doesn't prefer to dribble. So maybe use a WM role with modified PIs instead

[Robson 07]

Hi @zlatanera good to see you making a post. I like your plan of basing a tactic around an idea.  That often helps the thinking,  It looks pretty good.  Just the one question, why those Volante roles?  What is it that you gain or create by using those cause no one really holding, right?

Actually a second question.  Why everyone tight marking not just certain players?

[zlatanera]

11 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

If you are trying to emulate the movement of Lemar, you need to know that Runs with Ball Often won't do. Even Lemar himself has said that he doesn't prefer to dribble. So maybe use a WM role with modified PIs instead

Source? I'd be interested to read anything from him or Silva as they're the ones I was least certain about. I just went with it because that's one of his starting moves on FM, figured the FM researchers know their stuff, particularly when it comes to the top players. 

5 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Hi @zlatanera good to see you making a post. I like your plan of basing a tactic around an idea.  That often helps the thinking,  It looks pretty good.  Just the one question, why those Volante roles?  What is it that you gain or create by using those cause no one really holding, right?

Actually a second question.  Why everyone tight marking not just certain players?

From my reading I got the impression that they (Fabinho & Bakayoko) were effectively taking it in turns to operate either as a BBM (getting further forward) or Half Back (dropping into defence to pick up the ball). So I did consider BBM and HB, perhaps with them swapping positions, but I also wanted to try and imitate a shot I'd seen of them dropping onto the opposition strikers out of possession, so I then thought SV and HB. Then I noticed that they never really switched positions as such - Fabinho would generally be on the right of centre and Bakayoko on the left, so I figured why not try two SVs and trust that the quality of player Manchester United can afford would prevent them from doing anything stupid? Also, the Telegraph article has them as a 2-4-4 in possession, which you can't achieve with a DM that's staying back. Seems to be working out so far - although I never see them dropping onto the strikers with the centre backs dropping off further, I do see them getting pretty deep out of possession until the opposition CMs get on the ball. 

As for tight marking:

That's from the Outside Of The Boot article which says "In addition, Jardim likes to develop a rigorous marking system, looking to annul every single offensive player of the opposition with a strong man-to-man marking system that tries to “close” the opposition’s attack in one sector of the pitch, where all spaces are occupied with Jardim’s players. This tends, in theory, to lead the game to a limited space fully occupied by his side, where the ball will be recuperated sooner or later". That, to me, both looks and sounds more like the team marking tightly rather than say, the centre backs man-marking the opposition strikers. FM isn't an exact replication of football though, and I certainly wouldn't oppose anyone else trying to do this using specific man-marking instructions instead of the Tighter Marking TI.

[Jean0987654321]

9 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Source? I'd be interested to read anything from him or Silva as they're the ones I was least certain about. I just went with it because that's one of his starting moves on FM, figured the FM researchers know their stuff, particularly when it comes to the top players. 

From my reading I got the impression that they (Fabinho & Bakayoko) were effectively taking it in turns to operate either as a BBM (getting further forward) or Half Back (dropping into defence to pick up the ball). So I did consider BBM and HB, perhaps with them swapping positions, but I also wanted to try and imitate a shot I'd seen of them dropping onto the opposition strikers out of possession, so I then thought SV and HB. Then I noticed that they never really switched positions as such - Fabinho would generally be on the right of centre and Bakayoko on the left, so I figured why not try two SVs and trust that the quality of player Manchester United can afford would prevent them from doing anything stupid? Also, the Telegraph article has them as a 2-4-4 in possession, which you can't achieve with a DM that's staying back. Seems to be working out so far - although I never see them dropping onto the strikers with the centre backs dropping off further, I do see them getting pretty deep out of possession until the opposition CMs get on the ball. 

As for tight marking:

That's from the Outside Of The Boot article which says "In addition, Jardim likes to develop a rigorous marking system, looking to annul every single offensive player of the opposition with a strong man-to-man marking system that tries to “close” the opposition’s attack in one sector of the pitch, where all spaces are occupied with Jardim’s players. This tends, in theory, to lead the game to a limited space fully occupied by his side, where the ball will be recuperated sooner or later". That, to me, both looks and sounds more like the team marking tightly rather than say, the centre backs man-marking the opposition strikers. FM isn't an exact replication of football though, and I certainly wouldn't oppose anyone else trying to do this using specific man-marking instructions instead of the Tighter Marking TI.

 

 

Quote

 "I am trying to avoid duels and concentrate on passing and movement as much as possible," Lemar told BeIN Sports.

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/blog/espn-fc-united-blog/68/post/3041087/monacos-thomas-lemar-looking-to-emulate-idol-andres-iniesta

 

 Sometimes the FM researchers tend to botch these types of details. Lemar CAN dribble but he is usually running more WITHOUT the ball from the times I've seen from him

 

 

[zlatanera]

14 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/blog/espn-fc-united-blog/68/post/3041087/monacos-thomas-lemar-looking-to-emulate-idol-andres-iniesta

Sometimes the FM researchers tend to botch these types of details. Lemar CAN dribble but he is usually running more WITHOUT the ball from the times I've seen from him

Cheers. I haven't watched enough of him, which is why I asked about a source. I might not give too many guys "Runs With Ball Often" then. WM-At might be something I try if, as its currently looking, I retain my CL and PL titles and add the FA Cup in my second season. Although, the guys I use at LM are so different from each other the role barely seems to matter outside of a starting position: Memphis keeps doing that thing Ronaldo used to do a lot of cutting in just outside the box and blasting it towards the bottom corner or playing a killer ball, Thomas (regen) is more of an out-and-out winger as he has no ppms, so tends to cut in to the box then cross, and Lingard with Gets Into Opposition Area, Plays One-Twos, Cuts Inside and 19 Off The Ball tends to be more of a pass-and-move guy when he's on the ball but is most commonly seen arriving at the back post to volley it into the right bottom corner. 

[Jean0987654321]

3 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Cheers. I haven't watched enough of him, which is why I asked about a source. I might not give too many guys "Runs With Ball Often" then. WM-At might be something I try if, as its currently looking, I retain my CL and PL titles and add the FA Cup in my second season. Although, the guys I use at LM are so different from each other the role barely seems to matter outside of a starting position: Memphis keeps doing that thing Ronaldo used to do a lot of cutting in just outside the box and blasting it towards the bottom corner or playing a killer ball, Thomas (regen) is more of an out-and-out winger as he has no ppms, so tends to cut in to the box then cross, and Lingard with Gets Into Opposition Area, Plays One-Twos, Cuts Inside and 19 Off The Ball tends to be more of a pass-and-move guy when he's on the ball but is most commonly seen arriving at the back post to volley it into the right bottom corner. 

I would say if you are looking for a player similar to Lemar then Lingard is your guy. For the young regen, you can always mould his position/PPMs to make him Lemar-esque. Memphis/Martial/Rashford seems more fitting for the Mbappe role, IMO

 

WM (a) - Sit Narrower, Cuts Inside With Ball, Roam From Position, Cross Less Often

 

this is how I would emulate Lemar's role

[zlatanera]

52 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

I would say if you are looking for a player similar to Lemar then Lingard is your guy. For the young regen, you can always mould his position/PPMs to make him Lemar-esque. Memphis/Martial/Rashford seems more fitting for the Mbappe role, IMO

 

WM (a) - Sit Narrower, Cuts Inside With Ball, Roam From Position, Cross Less Often

 

this is how I would emulate Lemar's role

Yeah Memphis was meant to be my 3rd striker but I couldn't offload Lukaku - left it too late to transfer list him after waiting for Real Madrid to firm up their interest, Chelsea kept offering £54m non-negotiable. So I've rotated Memphis, Lingard and regen at LM and Memphis has been nuts at LM - 8.26 over 12 apps versus 7.08 over 18 at ST. May get actual Mbappe for his role next season

I'll keep your idea in mind for season 3 

[ramie]

liking the progress so far mate

[tyler16]

Fantastic thread, would like to hear how it's going for you.

[zlatanera]

@tyler16 there's links to my first two season summaries in the OP. Was in January 3rd season playing a slightly different version of the tactic (WM-At with PIs at LM, BBM and DLP-Su in the centre but otherwise the same) and doing well but I kinda got bored and decided to move onto Ajax for a bit. I'll probably come back to this at some point though.

[BadAss88]

You got me excited to try this! Loved the way Monaco played that season!

[tyler16]

10 hours ago, zlatanera said:

@tyler16 there's links to my first two season summaries in the OP. Was in January 3rd season playing a slightly different version of the tactic (WM-At with PIs at LM, BBM and DLP-Su in the centre but otherwise the same) and doing well but I kinda got bored and decided to move onto Ajax for a bit. I'll probably come back to this at some point though.

Ah, see that now.

Funnily enough I found this thread by googling "monaco 16/17 tactics" after going back and watching some of their matches from that historic season recently.

Good stuff!

[zlatanera]

5 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

You got me excited to try this! Loved the way Monaco played that season!

let me know if it works for you, be interested to see if it fits with different squads

2 hours ago, tyler16 said:

Ah, see that now.

Funnily enough I found this thread by googling "monaco 16/17 tactics" after going back and watching some of their matches from that historic season recently.

Good stuff!

Yeah part of the reason for doing this (other than an article saying Jardim would be perfect for Man Utd) was that a similar search didn't find any FM tactics for me to copy, so I reluctantly did it myself

[BadAss88]

Why not use a SV and BBM? And you could set those two to man mark the opposition strikers?

[BadAss88]

Did you use any PI's?

[zlatanera]

1 hour ago, BadAss88 said:

Why not use a SV and BBM? And you could set those two to man mark the opposition strikers?

I like to have my players in lines when I play a 442 / 4411. You could certainly try it. Also, I figure that combo would probably lead to the BBM being further forward most of the time, where I was really trying to get it that the players individually pick and choose who goes further forward. I've done another version with DLP-Su and BBM though. I wasn't sure how often that man-marking actually happened and didn't want to risk leaving the centre completely at the opposition's mercy, especially given the strength of long shots on this version.

1 hour ago, BadAss88 said:

Did you use any PI's?

Nope. Didn't see the need for any, especially given some of my roles (CWB, WP, CF) have tons already.

[BadAss88]

SV-S has none..

[BadAss88]

And how did you select players? Because Pogba only has 1.5 star as a SV-S..

[Moutorious]

14 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

And how did you select players? Because Pogba only has 1.5 star as a SV-S..

doesn't matter

[zlatanera]

40 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

SV-S has none..

It has under the hood behaviour, similar to how BBM is more than just CM-Su with "Roam From Position".

39 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

And how did you select players? Because Pogba only has 1.5 star as a SV-S..

Look at the attributes. He's accomplished in the position and has the right attributes. The contrast with him and Kanté works well in that Pogba excels in the more offensive aspects of the role and Kanté in the defensive, but neither are outright terrible at the parts they're not good at, if that makes sense.

[DannyFM87]

I just won the league and champions league with Man Utd first season with this tactic. Great stuff!

[zlatanera]

2 hours ago, DannyFM87 said:

I just won the league and champions league with Man Utd first season with this tactic. Great stuff!

ahaha that's uncanny, that's the two trophies I got first season using it too!

[DannyFM87]

16 hours ago, zlatanera said:

ahaha that's uncanny, that's the two trophies I got first season using it too!

Nice! Rashford (AF) and Martial (CF) were lethal upfront all season. Had some amazing results aswell, such as 6-0 vs Bayern in the champions league qtr final!!

I made two signings. De Ligt and Isco (who I used as the wide playmaker) then in January I signed Rasmus Kristensen from Ajax and Nicolo Barella from Cagliari.

Starting second season now!!

 

[zlatanera]

Updated the 3rd post with a new iteration of the tactic featuring an AMC as the primary goal threat!

[Hoosier_76]

On 27/12/2018 at 11:50, zlatanera said:

The above formation is technically an evolution on an evolution of the tactic in the first post. In my 3rd season with Manchester United the double Segundo Volantes were moved up into the midfield as a DLP-Su on the right and BBM on the left in an attempt to get goals out of Pogba, and the W-At on the left became a WM-At with Sit Narrower and Roam From Position selected following feedback in this thread. That save was becoming almost too easy domestically however, so I decided to try and get the best out of Marco Reus at Dortmund.

The first change was to flip the midfield - at United I had an abundance of left-footed players and so the WP-At came in off the right whilst our wingers bombed down the left. Dortmund meanwhile have an abundance of right-footed attackers (in fact, there are no left-footed players for the WM, AM or ST positions in the starting squad), so the wide roles were switched, and then I swapped the midfield roles just to maintain a similar balance to the original. 

As Reus is a natural at AMC I knew I was going to play him as a Shadow Striker, and my initial thought was a 4411 with a DLF-Su ahead of him. However, I had to do something with Mario Götze and Shinji Kagawa, so a False Nine was chosen. If they were on top of each other I thought they might get in each other's way, so I offset the SS to the right and the F9 to the left, adding Move Into Channels and Roam From Position to really help him a) get out of Reus' way and b) get himself on the ball. Götze was trained with the "Comes Deep To Get Ball" trait to further accentuate the movement of the role. 

The results of this tactic can be found here, in the Bundesliga thread

Analysis may follow...

Do you not get exposed with two support duties in the midfield? 

[zlatanera]

9 hours ago, Hoosier_76 said:

Do you not get exposed with two support duties in the midfield? 

Sometimes, especially with the less mobile Julian Weigl in the DLP position instead of Witsel (I reckon I would have beat Bayern's points and goals totals if Witsel hadn't gotten a big injury in February / March). But we still get a decent amount of clean sheets, and we score just so many goals it doesn't matter - you do occasionally get a nuts result like a 4-4 draw I had against Hoffenheim, but usually you outscore the opposition, and I was only shut out twice in the entire season - away to Barcelona and Bayer Leverkusen. In my 3rd season with United I was using the same midfield, just with actual strikers instead of the F9-SS combo, and we were great defensively too.

I wouldn't like to do this with slow defenders though unless they're in the Rugani / Pavard mould of being incredible at Anticipation and Positioning. (Manuel Akanji is something like 14 acc 16 pace, Zagadou is the only one with below 10 acc and he's still got a lot of pace due to his size, helps with recovery. Abdou Diallo is also quite mobile and Omer Toprak has 16 Positioning). 

I could probably get better results with a more suited squad but I wanted to see what I could do with the current Dortmund team, and I'm going to move away from this tactic at least for a season. 

[BadAss88]

Does it still resemble Jardim's Monaco? And did you use the same TI's as your first tactic?

EDIT: I like the saves you start and the tactics you use @zlatanera completely my style!

[zlatanera]

36 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

Does it still resemble Jardim's Monaco? And did you use the same TI's as your first tactic?

EDIT: I like the saves you start and the tactics you use @zlatanera completely my style!

Well it doesn't look too dissimilar from the original tactic - when we have a goal kick, for example, only the DLP will drop between the CBs whereas in the original both SV's dropped as can be seen in post #2. We still defend in two banks of four, but we have to counter differently as in the analysis post you see the AF being an outlet, particularly when it's Lukaku. In the new tactic the SS is much deeper, so we tend to look for either of the wide players or the F9. 

Yeah TIs are the same, that's why they're left off. 

[BadAss88]

13 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Well it doesn't look too dissimilar from the original tactic - when we have a goal kick, for example, only the DLP will drop between the CBs whereas in the original both SV's dropped as can be seen in post #2. We still defend in two banks of four, but we have to counter differently as in the analysis post you see the AF being an outlet, particularly when it's Lukaku. In the new tactic the SS is much deeper, so we tend to look for either of the wide players or the F9. 

Yeah TIs are the same, that's why they're left off. 

I'm more interested in using the 2 forwards from the first tactic then a F9..

[zlatanera]

On 26/01/2019 at 19:24, BadAss88 said:

I'm more interested in using the 2 forwards from the first tactic then a F9..

Well if you want to be like the 2nd tactic but with two strikers, then just take the first one and turn RDM into DLP-Su at RCM and LDM into BBM-Su at LCM. At LM you could also change the W-At into a WM-At with Sit Narrower and Roam From Position. If you don't have an abundance of left-footed players like I did at United, you can just flip the entire midfield. Or just the wide roles.

[ramie]

On 27/12/2018 at 16:50, zlatanera said:

The above formation is technically an evolution on an evolution of the tactic in the first post. In my 3rd season with Manchester United the double Segundo Volantes were moved up into the midfield as a DLP-Su on the right and BBM on the left in an attempt to get goals out of Pogba, and the W-At on the left became a WM-At with Sit Narrower and Roam From Position selected following feedback in this thread. That save was becoming almost too easy domestically however, so I decided to try and get the best out of Marco Reus at Dortmund.

The first change was to flip the midfield - at United I had an abundance of left-footed players and so the WP-At came in off the right whilst our wingers bombed down the left. Dortmund meanwhile have an abundance of right-footed attackers (in fact, there are no left-footed players for the WM, AM or ST positions in the starting squad), so the wide roles were switched, and then I swapped the midfield roles just to maintain a similar balance to the original. 

As Reus is a natural at AMC I knew I was going to play him as a Shadow Striker, and my initial thought was a 4411 with a DLF-Su ahead of him. However, I had to do something with Mario Götze and Shinji Kagawa, so a False Nine was chosen. If they were on top of each other I thought they might get in each other's way, so I offset the SS to the right and the F9 to the left, adding Move Into Channels and Roam From Position to really help him a) get out of Reus' way and b) get himself on the ball. Götze was trained with the "Comes Deep To Get Ball" trait to further accentuate the movement of the role. 

The results of this tactic can be found here, in the Bundesliga thread

Analysis may follow...

Did you keep the team instructions the same as the first tactic?

[zlatanera]

@Rasmus I don't want to clutter up "stupid questions" as these are no longer stupid questions.

25 minutes ago, Rasmus said:

Very good! I love the 442, but haven’t used it for years. Dybala as CFs, and Rashford as ADV. forward could be lethal. I think the roles you used in your Dortmund save might suit my midfield duo Rodri and Savic better. Can’t use Martial as a forward anymore as i retrained him as ML, so he lost his ability to play as a striker apparently. Would an Inwerted Winger be useful instead of the wide playmaker? Sancho should definitley play as a Winger or Wide Midfielder on the right.

Martial can regain it. Sancho was a WP for my Dortmund team, so Martial would do fine as you can use an Inside Forward-type in the role, they tend to beat their man to open up space then lay it off or get right into the box and square it for a tap-in (with Martial's traits this could happen). Martial (CF) and Rashford (AF) were lethal in 3rd season which I didn't finish so yeah Dybala-Rashford would be great. You can use a defend duty in midfield if you want to better utilise Rodri, might help out against big teams. 

I've also adapted the Dortmund version into a 433 with Lyon and in 32 games so far since I switched from a possession focus to this we've lost only twice (once with reserves in the cup, once Lille shut us out 1-0), scoring 90 goals and conceding 23. This includes putting 5 past Barcelona, 6 past PSG and 3 past Juventus in their own ground. 

If the Villarreal-Barcelona 4-4 the other night is your platonic ideal of football, you can take the back 4 and TIs from this tactic, adjust the other 6 roles to your squad (and whether you use a Sweeper Keeper or not is personal preference) and just go mad, it appears. 

[Rasmus]

45 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

@Rasmus I don't want to clutter up "stupid questions" as these are no longer stupid questions.

Martial can regain it. Sancho was a WP for my Dortmund team, so Martial would do fine as you can use an Inside Forward-type in the role, they tend to beat their man to open up space then lay it off or get right into the box and square it for a tap-in (with Martial's traits this could happen). Martial (CF) and Rashford (AF) were lethal in 3rd season which I didn't finish so yeah Dybala-Rashford would be great. You can use a defend duty in midfield if you want to better utilise Rodri, might help out against big teams. 

I've also adapted the Dortmund version into a 433 with Lyon and in 32 games so far since I switched from a possession focus to this we've lost only twice (once with reserves in the cup, once Lille shut us out 1-0), scoring 90 goals and conceding 23. This includes putting 5 past Barcelona, 6 past PSG and 3 past Juventus in their own ground. 

If the Villarreal-Barcelona 4-4 the other night is your platonic ideal of football, you can take the back 4 and TIs from this tactic, adjust the other 6 roles to your squad (and whether you use a Sweeper Keeper or not is personal preference) and just go mad, it appears. 

Thank you so much for the suggestions. Can’t wait to see Martial as a WP on the left. This might just work. The Sancho/Lemar-role should be interesting too. Personally I prefer a pass and move-type of winger, so WMA should be the way to go. 

As a rule of thumb, I have always slapped a defend duty on one of my midfielders, but an extra on support could be used to unlock very defensive teams. 

Do you have a link to your Lyon-endeavours too? That save sounds like a lot of fun. 

Didn’t see Villarreal - Barca the other night. The Wolves - Man United-match was way more interesting...and discouraging.

[zlatanera]

18 hours ago, Rasmus said:

Thank you so much for the suggestions. Can’t wait to see Martial as a WP on the left. This might just work. The Sancho/Lemar-role should be interesting too. Personally I prefer a pass and move-type of winger, so WMA should be the way to go. 

Yeah W-At and the two SVs worked well, winning CL first season but once I switched it up to WM-At with PIs, BBM and DLP-Su (and bought Joao Felix) we were just unplayable. 

18 hours ago, Rasmus said:

As a rule of thumb, I have always slapped a defend duty on one of my midfielders, but an extra on support could be used to unlock very defensive teams. 

Yeah this is definitely the first time I've done it without defend duties, and considering Lyon are a step down (perhaps not over Dortmund, after I spent £70m on defenders including Zagadou from them) and the general profile of my players I do have Tousart as a DM-De. 

18 hours ago, Rasmus said:

Do you have a link to your Lyon-endeavours too? That save sounds like a lot of fun. 

I've commented a couple of times on that thread, I'll do a full season summary there and if its as successful as it looks to be turning out, I'll add a post in here showing the tactic. 

18 hours ago, Rasmus said:

Didn't see Villarreal - Barca the other night. The Wolves - Man United-match was way more interesting...and discouraging.

It was a 4-4 draw featuring a red card and two 90th minute goals to tie it. I can't imagine the United game was better. I don't have any sports packages or I would have been watching that game though as I'm a Man Utd fan, so in this case I was glad. 

[zlatanera]

Another different formation using the same Tis, this time my Lyon squad who accomplished some spectacular things in the first season. This follows directly on from the Dortmund tactic as I used that as a guide when devising the player roles. AP-At has Roam From Position and Sit Narrower to give it exactly the same instructions as WP-At in the MR / ML position, and the CM-At has Take More Risks, Dribble More and Move Into Channels to give a similar central presence to the Shadow Striker. My squad was built for a 433, with a CB who is only accomplished at DM so the 3rd midfielder drops into the DM position, and Tousart doesn't have the technique, vision or off the ball movement to be a playmaker so its just an ordinary DM-De. 

We did drop £73m on defenders but I'd still argue this is the weakest team yet I've used the Jardim instructions with, and this was the most stable version - that added security of the DM makes it slightly less terrifying when you have 4 men in the box and the CWB gets caught in possession, but its still lethal going forward - 145 goals from all competitions, 115 excluding set piece goals. I wouldn't advise it with a team that you'd expect to finish outside of the last Europa League spot though, without making it slightly more cautious again. The sides I've used have been similar to the side I was inspired by - expected to finish in the top four, but title winners each time (and overhauling PSG on FM definitely seems harder than overhauling Bayern). 

Lyon 2018-19 Season Summary

[Rasmus]

So I finished the season with United, and it may just be the best I’ve had in this save. Started the season out in a flat 442 which eventually evolved into a 4231 with a 442 look in the defensive and attacking phase. Used most of the tactical instructions from the original post.

I’m no good at screenshots and stuff like that, so you’ll just have to believe me:

Rashford - 39 goals. 25 in the league but could probably have scored more if I didn’t rest him in the final six league games.

Dybala - 25 goals. 16 in the league. Suffered a few injuries, but delivered in almost every game. 

Martial - 18 goals, 17 assists. Started the season as the wide playmaker, but became too inconsistent. Changed his role to IFs and never looked back. Consistently passed ball throug to Rashford or crossed the ball for other players. 

Milinkovic-Savic - 15 goals. Was perfect in his BBM role and should probaly have scored a few more. Would also have liked to see a few more assists than his total of four.

Ruben Neves - 10 league assists. Now this I was happy to see. As a DLPs he was way more involved in the final third, and delivered some great balls in behind. 

Diogo Dalot - 9 league assists. Voted Premier League Player of The Year. Probably due to his high avr. rating. Quite a surprise nevertheless.

Sancho - 7 total goals and not much else. Was injured for two months and generally found it hard in general. Right midfield/wing was generally my weakest point in my setup. I should get way more out of his speed, technique and vision.

In the league:

105 points, 109 goals scored, only 17 against. Pretty dominant to say the least.

Won the Champions League against Chelsea after extra time and a huge blunder by Kepa who was unable to control a backpass from Rüdiger, and saw Rashford scoring an easy game winner. Chelsea is now manged by Rufete and once agains play a park the bus style of tactic. Finished second in the league with 59 goals scored and 22 against. 

 

[zlatanera]

@Rasmus what season was this? Glad to see someone else can achieve similar results to me, I've been considering a 4231 version too. I guess you had Dybala in the hole? 

[Rasmus]

12 hours ago, zlatanera said:

@Rasmus what season was this? Glad to see someone else can achieve similar results to me, I've been considering a 4231 version too. I guess you had Dybala in the hole? 

It was the season of 2022/23, so I also got to experience how a season with a World Cup in November feels like. 

Yes, Dybala in the hole as an AM-A. Was way more effective and I didn’t feel like he saw enough of the ball in the 442. 

[zlatanera]

16 minutes ago, Rasmus said:

It was the season of 2022/23, so I also got to experience how a season with a World Cup in November feels like. 

Yes, Dybala in the hole as an AM-A. Was way more effective and I didn’t feel like he saw enough of the ball in the 442. 

Was he actually getting into the box enough? Or were his goals just set pieces and the odd long shot? I found on a previous tactic my AM-At in a 4-2-3-1 wasn't getting into scoring positions. But yeah the striker roles in this tactic are for players with good OTB movement, acceleration, pace and dribbling (could probably survive without Pace if you were able to burst away with Acceleration though) as its based around Mbappe and Falcao a couple of years back - whilst the latter isn't exactly a pace merchant, he's not dropping into the hole to spray passes either. 

[Rasmus]

9 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Was he actually getting into the box enough? Or were his goals just set pieces and the odd long shot? I found on a previous tactic my AM-At in a 4-2-3-1 wasn't getting into scoring positions. But yeah the striker roles in this tactic are for players with good OTB movement, acceleration, pace and dribbling (could probably survive without Pace if you were able to burst away with Acceleration though) as its based around Mbappe and Falcao a couple of years back - whilst the latter isn't exactly a pace merchant, he's not dropping into the hole to spray passes either. 

He does get into the box, but he isn’t much of a presence in the air. I think he has the “get into the opposition area” trait, so that migt help. He’s most dangerous when he’s just outside the box so he can use his great longshots, but also find himself in dangerous positions just inside the box near the penalty spot. Oh, and he’s also my penalty-taker so that helps a lot too. He didn’t score that many free kicks though. I also wanted him to use his ability to pick out other players from deeper positions more regularly because he has the traits “Passes the ball instead of looking for a shot” (or whatever it’s called) and “tries killer balls often”. So the idea was for him to find Rashford in behind defenses a little more often when seeing an opportunity for that to happen. Having Rashford on an CFa duty also gave more room for Dybala to operate in, and since Rash often looks to beat the offside trap I didn’t want him to on support duty.

[Amazingortega]

The 4123 really worked wonders for my arsenal even with so many acadmey graduates in my first 11 . Good one thanks for the tactics