19.2.1 : Team Performances Nosedive

[Guest]

Just now, The Dude said:

Dagenham Dave (?) has been proper triggered.  

Just decided to ignore him. 

He’s not as clever as he thinks he is and it’s impossible to discuss anything with someone that stubborn. 

To quote: “he’s so dense that light bends around him.”

[rp1966]

9 hours ago, FrazT said:

There were absolutely no  changes to the ME in the latest update

Over the years I have noticed that updates that shouldn't affect anything ME-wise actually do have a negative effect. Could it be that some cumulative data in the management part of the game governing factors related to a team's momentum get reset when a new version is rolled out? Always seems to resettle after a few games, but obviously if you're in a tight top or bottom of the league spot a minor drop in performances can be significant.

[The Dude]

Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

Never mind, Santa will be here soon. Maybe you'll get a new downloaded tactic in your stocking this year! 

I would just like to take a moment to congratulate you on your incisive, well-considered argument.  It's like debating Socrates.  

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, rp1966 said:

Over the years I have noticed that updates that shouldn't affect anything ME-wise actually do have a negative effect. Could it be that some cumulative data in the management part of the game governing factors related to a team's momentum get reset when a new version is rolled out? Always seems to resettle after a few games, but obviously if you're in a tight top or bottom of the league spot a minor drop in performances can be significant.

Perception bias, nothing more, nothing less. 

[The Dude]

6 minutes ago, Iutbsco said:

Just decided to ignore him. 

He’s not as clever as he thinks he is and it’s impossible to discuss anything with someone that stubborn. 

To quote: “he’s so dense that light bends around him.”

It is a bit like playing chess with a pigeon.

[rp1966]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Perception bias, nothing more, nothing less. 

Maybe, but I think I'd be happier if any game change, ME or otherwise, was cached until the closed season with an override in preferences for if I wanted it to take immediate effect.

 

[The Dude]

5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Perception bias, nothing more, nothing less. 

Knowing the term "perception bias" does not entitle you to characterise someone's observations as perception bias. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts.

[Dagenham_Dave]

26 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Knowing the term "perception bias" does not entitle you to characterise someone's observations as perception bias. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts.

How's this for facts. 

Fact 1 - The developer of the game has confirmed there has been no changes. I'm inclined to believe them rather than you, no offence. Even if you do 'smash the game repeatedly'

Fact 2 - 500,000 people have bought the game already, and around 60,000 play the game at any one time. This forum has around 320.000 members. Three people have mentioned their team's form has nosedived since the update. Do you seriously think, on a forum such as this, where the slightest negative change in a game unleashes widespread wailing. there wouldn't be a massive outpouring of posts on the same thing?

It doesn't take a genius (sic) to work out that any changes in your team's form since this update has been purely coincidental. 

Think laddie, think.  

[The Dude]

12 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Fact 1 - The developer of the game has confirmed there has been no changes. I'm inclined to believe them rather than you, no offence. Even if you do 'smash the game repeatedly'

 

You've missed the earlier points made about not all changes being announced, and about errors in coding, and unintentional errors after intentional work, then? 

 

13 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

 Fact 2 - 500,000 people have bought the game already, and around 60,000 play the game at any one time. This forum has around 320.000 members. Three people have mentioned their team's form has nosedived since the update. Do you seriously think, on a forum such as this, where the slightest negative change in a game unleashes widespread wailing. there wouldn't be a massive outpouring of posts on the same thing?

 

Have a look at how many people post on the BUGS forum.  The game is riddled with bugs.  Someone will always be the first person to spot a bug.  Also consider that not everyone who experiences a bug can be arsed to report it.  Many people avoid these forums precisely because of people like you. Think laddie. 

 

15 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

 It doesn't take a genius (sic) to work out that any changes in your team's form since this update has been purely coincidental. 

 

You're not in a position to talk about genius.  Laddie.  But keep your angry opinions coming.  It's actually more entertaining than Wolves v Liverpool at the mo.  

ta ta.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Apologies, just looked at the changelist again and you're actually spot on

 

19.2.1 Changelist

- Further stability fixes
- Fix for Romanian U22 Homegrown Registration Rule 
- Eligibility fix for Euro Cup U21 players

- People who 'repeatedly smash the game' will have a massive downturn in form due to errors in coding and unintentional errors, and it absolutely won't have anything to do with them 

[westy8chimp]

This is very entertaining... @The Dude bickering with Dave gets you banned... He's an SI bot troll 

[Berri90]

I'm having the same issues. I was leading League 1 before the update and now I'm losing or drawing with almost everyone. Funny thing though, I'm killing it in ALL the cup competitions. I'm even beating Premier League teams. Also, has anyone noticed injuries have gone way up since the update?

[The Dude]

22 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

This is very entertaining... @The Dude bickering with Dave gets you banned... He's an SI bot troll 

He's so entertaining though!  

[The Dude]

29 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Apologies, just looked at the changelist again and you're actually spot on

 

19.2.1 Changelist

- Further stability fixes
- Fix for Romanian U22 Homegrown Registration Rule 
- Eligibility fix for Euro Cup U21 players

- People who 'repeatedly smash the game' will have a massive downturn in form due to errors in coding and unintentional errors, and it absolutely won't have anything to do with them 

Thank you!  You've seen sense at last!  Well done on admitting you got it wrong though.  Takes a big man to do that.  Go and get your Horlicks before they tuck you in - you've earned it. 

Happy Christmas, by the way. *hug*

[CFuller]

3 minutes ago, Berri90 said:

I'm having the same issues. I was leading League 1 before the update and now I'm losing or drawing with almost everyone. Funny thing though, I'm killing it in ALL the cup competitions. I'm even beating Premier League teams. Also, has anyone noticed injuries have gone way up since the update?

Again, this might be a case of the teams in your league playing more cautiously against you because of your strong performances, which could perhaps make your tactics less effective. Similarly, a few bad results could see your form spiral out of control unless you act quickly. This happens to seemingly high-flying teams surprisingly often in real-life.

As for the injuries, unless SI have explicitly stated they have changed something on that front, I would assume they have changed nothing. A sudden major injury or a general increase in injuries can usually be explained. My worst injury in FM19 so far came shortly after the last major patch, when my star midfielder tore his hamstring in a youth friendly that he only played in to keep him match-sharp. I'd probably pushed him a little too far there, but I digress...

[FrazT]

OK Guys- enough of the bickering and personal digs.

[Berri90]

55 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Again, this might be a case of the teams in your league playing more cautiously against you because of your strong performances, which could perhaps make your tactics less effective. Similarly, a few bad results could see your form spiral out of control unless you act quickly. This happens to seemingly high-flying teams surprisingly often in real-life.

As for the injuries, unless SI have explicitly stated they have changed something on that front, I would assume they have changed nothing. A sudden major injury or a general increase in injuries can usually be explained. My worst injury in FM19 so far came shortly after the last major patch, when my star midfielder tore his hamstring in a youth friendly that he only played in to keep him match-sharp. I'd probably pushed him a little too far there, but I digress...

Thanks for the reply. I'm starting to address the form slump. Tweaking tactics, results aren't great but slowly getting better. The injuries though, idk? I have 6 injuries atm. All to my best players and 80% are the same injury. 5-8 weeks with twisted knees.

[oulzac]

3 hours ago, The Dude said:

I explain it as BS.

Correct. You caught me. I made it up because I wanted to be apart of the discussion. Sorry about that.

[Svenc]

5 hours ago, macca72 said:

This.

I think a lot of the problem (because I've experienced it) is not really being able to tell why you've lost a game.  Some will be luck, some will be tactics, some will be bugs, but there's an ever decreasing number of reliable things to help people understand why games turn out the way they do.

Mnid, this was more a general Observation, not judging the current patch. Because you have these perceptions on any patch/release. That's the only way to "fix them" IN GENERAL. Because for as Long as SI aren't happy with their engine, or their AI, or the game in General, the game will Keep on changing. It's actually a  weakness of this game in a sense that you can win (or lose, if that makes the OP feel more comfortable), despite having little idea as to why. The more troublesome thing is the winning part though. Imagine you thought you had  learned a game and then all of a sudden it stops. On several major overhauls made to the game, that was actually a mass reported phenomenon for many players (the jump from FM11/12 to FM 13 for instance, which changed a few significant Things in the ME as of the General movement of Players). The basic core logics rewarded on the tactical front as such so far has never majorly changed from my experience. However, the specifics (how robust AI manage Matches; the exact positioning of certain roles/positions, d-lines  etc.) that CAN actually change significantly even between Patches, and almost Always between releases. Even database changes can change the ballpark, as AI Managers may line up differently to before as they have preferences edited into the db. And as you argue, not everything is tactical. However, SI Need be careful, as if they spoon feed too much, they may alienate on all fronts; and/or overwhelm their Players. I'd like to see a poll for instance how many Players know how to fully use the many analysis tools the game has gradually added -- there's never been a manual for them. Or perhaps how many aren't afraid of touching them all considering.

tldr; that you can Play this game successfully despite having very flawed ideas of how the game actually worked in general is actually one  of it's long-term flaws. As a result, FM myths are legion and from my experience, there tend to be very very few places / players I would personally consider as reliable source of Information. (FM communities dominated by "plug&play  tactics" tend to be FM MYth Central, btw.) Those are also the Kind of communities that fear any new patch as much as Count Dracula fears the garlic -- and they  have a reason to fear sadly too. Some of this will persist, as it's an inherent thing to the Sports FM simulates… Football Matches, in particular invididually, tend to be settled in slightest of margins.
 

 

[alanschu14]

10 hours ago, Iutbsco said:

I loaded my save back up following an update, and i was in the middle of a great run of form. First match my assistant told me to not say anything. It was unusual as i was half way through the sixth season and i had never seen this before. 

It's often what my manager would say pre 19.2.1

Given that often the Assman stuff seems nonsensical, I'm disinclined to read too much into them.

 

 

I seem to have won the ME hidden changes lottery though!

[Guest]

10 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

It's often what my manager would say pre 19.2.1

Given that often the Assman stuff seems nonsensical, I'm disinclined to read too much into them.

 

 

I seem to have won the ME hidden changes lottery though!

 

It was very strange. My AM, post update, gave the same advice for every game - say nothing. 

I have never followed their advice either. 

Just glad to make it over the finish line last season with the FA Cup in the bag. 

Had a huge clearout of players and backroom staff. Hopefully next season the poor form turns around. 

[The Dude]

12 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

It's often what my manager would say pre 19.2.1

 

I think the point is that it was a sudden change from what had previously been very consistent from the assman.  I think a lot of people are missing this very simple point about the changes through the whole of this thread: *Things* were extremely consistently *this*, then there was an update, and those *things* which were supposedly nothing to do with the update were suddenly *that* instead of *this*.  Considering no other *elements* were known to be impacting on the *things*, then there appears to be a *correlation* between the update and the *things*. 

I'm going to expand on this below.

[The Dude]

I think a lot of people are missing this very simple point about the changes through the whole of this thread: *Things* were extremely consistently *this*, then there was an update, and those *things* which were supposedly nothing to do with the update were suddenly *that* instead of *this*.  Considering no other *elements* were known to be impacting on the *things*, then there appears to be a *correlation* between the update and the *things*. 

Of course, *correlation* does not necessarily mean *causation*.  And it is in recognition of this that some people are swinging the other way and assuming (on the back of the official word from SI people) that in this case the *correlation* cannot have any *causation*.  Unfortunately, this is a logical error exactly on a par with assuming that *correlation* DOES mean *causation*. 

Here's what we know:

1. There was an update.

2. Immediately after the update, some FM players noticed a SUDDEN change in elements of their save that should have nothing to do with the update.

3. Some of the changes noticed COULD be explained by normal game function (loss of form, etc).  Others just seem bizarre and have no sensible explanation based on the official changelist.  Some of the have been discussed on this thread; others haven't:

• Disappearing nationalities.
• Sudden change in assman feedback and advice from a previously consistent pattern.
• A change in the zoom of the camera on 'behind the goal' highlights. 
• And many more great hits!

While a sudden and drastic loss of form in a team with a determined personality, and tried and tested tactics, and an overall club infrastructure (staff etc) totally geared to success COULD be explained by normal game functions, it can be seen differently in the light of the timing of it (post-update) and in the context of these other changes that shouldn't have been expected from what we know about the update.  Also, bear in mind the two people who are talking about this have had over twenty years intense experience each on FM/CM, including many ups and downs, successes and failures.  It's not newbies getting fed up because they lost a few matches.  

Of course, it COULD all be coincidence, absolutely.  Or maybe not.  And as I've demonstrated in this post, assuming there is no causation is a logical error. 

But then this: Sometimes, when we post stuff on a forum or on social media, we don't tell the whole story.  We kind of use a shorthand. just skimming over details because, you know what, it's not a high-power debate between academics is it?  What happens though is that some people attack these posts, homing in on a lack of detail and not taking a position known in logical debate as 'the principle of charity'.  They go for the jugular without thinking it through.  These people do not get a great reaction from me.  You see, although I might sometimes post something that looks lightweight and lacking in detail, it's not because I don't know what I'm talking about, and people who make this mistake often end up wishing they hadn't, depending on what mood I'm in.  Sometimes I'll respond to sarcasm and silliness with equal sarcasm and silliness. And then other times, I'll end up with a post like this, that should be completely unnecessary - and WOULD be unnecessary if certain contributors had applied the principle of charity. 

The principle of charity is used by people who know how to conduct a fair and reasonable arguments.  It means approaching someone else's *argument* (the position they are taking) by looking for the strongest possible interpretation of it.  This may involve asking probing questions to try to understand what they really mean. 

But if you start from a position of disagreeing with someone without giving serious consideration to their point of view, you argument begins as weak - because you've failed to adequately consider anything that might support their view.  And if you answer that with anything along the lines of "you're talking rubbish", I'm afraid you're not worthy of the debate. 

[The Dude]

14 hours ago, FrazT said:

OK Guys- enough of the bickering and personal digs.

Aww, mom!

[The Dude]

Just as a (hopefully) happy ending to the whole thing, though:

I finished the season having won the Community Shield, the League Cup, the FA Cup, and I got to the quarter final of the Champions League. I finished 6th in the Premier League.   The board then gave me plenty of transfer cash,  and without me asking, authorised a second expansion of the stadium. Aston Villa, season 2024/25, my fifth full season at the club.

So it's not all doom and gloom.  

Happy Christmas, people. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, The Dude said:

I think a lot of people are missing this very simple point about the changes through the whole of this thread: *Things* were extremely consistently *this*, then there was an update, and those *things* which were supposedly nothing to do with the update were suddenly *that* instead of *this*.  Considering no other *elements* were known to be impacting on the *things*, then there appears to be a *correlation* between the update and the *things*. 

Of course, *correlation* does not necessarily mean *causation*.  And it is in recognition of this that some people are swinging the other way and assuming (on the back of the official word from SI people) that in this case the *correlation* cannot have any *causation*.  Unfortunately, this is a logical error exactly on a par with assuming that *correlation* DOES mean *causation*. 

Here's what we know:

1. There was an update.

2. Immediately after the update, some FM players noticed a SUDDEN change in elements of their save that should have nothing to do with the update.

3. Some of the changes noticed COULD be explained by normal game function (loss of form, etc).  Others just seem bizarre and have no sensible explanation based on the official changelist.  Some of the have been discussed on this thread; others haven't:

• Disappearing nationalities.
• Sudden change in assman feedback and advice from a previously consistent pattern.
• A change in the zoom of the camera on 'behind the goal' highlights. 
• And many more great hits!

While a sudden and drastic loss of form in a team with a determined personality, and tried and tested tactics, and an overall club infrastructure (staff etc) totally geared to success COULD be explained by normal game functions, it can be seen differently in the light of the timing of it (post-update) and in the context of these other changes that shouldn't have been expected from what we know about the update.  Also, bear in mind the two people who are talking about this have had over twenty years intense experience each on FM/CM, including many ups and downs, successes and failures.  It's not newbies getting fed up because they lost a few matches.  

Of course, it COULD all be coincidence, absolutely.  Or maybe not.  And as I've demonstrated in this post, assuming there is no causation is a logical error. 

But then this: Sometimes, when we post stuff on a forum or on social media, we don't tell the whole story.  We kind of use a shorthand. just skimming over details because, you know what, it's not a high-power debate between academics is it?  What happens though is that some people attack these posts, homing in on a lack of detail and not taking a position known in logical debate as 'the principle of charity'.  They go for the jugular without thinking it through.  These people do not get a great reaction from me.  You see, although I might sometimes post something that looks lightweight and lacking in detail, it's not because I don't know what I'm talking about, and people who make this mistake often end up wishing they hadn't, depending on what mood I'm in.  Sometimes I'll respond to sarcasm and silliness with equal sarcasm and silliness. And then other times, I'll end up with a post like this, that should be completely unnecessary - and WOULD be unnecessary if certain contributors had applied the principle of charity. 

The principle of charity is used by people who know how to conduct a fair and reasonable arguments.  It means approaching someone else's *argument* (the position they are taking) by looking for the strongest possible interpretation of it.  This may involve asking probing questions to try to understand what they really mean. 

But if you start from a position of disagreeing with someone without giving serious consideration to their point of view, you argument begins as weak - because you've failed to adequately consider anything that might support their view.  And if you answer that with anything along the lines of "you're talking rubbish", I'm afraid you're not worthy of the debate. 

Excellent post. 

I have to admit, my limited experience with this forum has so far given me the impression of a toxic and hostile environment. 

When I gave my example of a downturn in form, I thought I was being fairly clear. As I tried to arrest the slide down the table, I was able to improve performances but not results. Contrary to what was suggested, I did try tweaking things here and there. I don’t just go with the exact same tactic match to match. I have core principles and adjust according to opposition; things like mentality and certain roles and duties. 

Correlation is not the same as causation, and if certain people knew my background they would find lecturing me on “perception bias” a little embarrassing. 

Back on topic though... I’ve gone through my backroom staff from top to bottom and been pretty ruthless. Also done some major wheeling and dealing. 

[The Dude]

Just now, Iutbsco said:

Correlation is not the same as causation, and if certain people knew my background they would find lecturing me on “perception bias” a little embarrassing. 

 

I know your background, and I can understand how some of the responses might have made you chuckle. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, Iutbsco said:

When I gave my example of a downturn in form, I thought I was being fairly clear. As I tried to arrest the slide down the table, I was able to improve performances but not results. Contrary to what was suggested, I did try tweaking things here and there. I don’t just go with the exact same tactic match to match.

In fairness, you were the first one to say you hadn't changed anything tactically. 

[The Dude]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

In fairness, you were the first one to say you hadn't changed anything tactically. 

 

4 minutes ago, Iutbsco said:

Contrary to what was suggested, I did try tweaking things here and there. I don’t just go with the exact same tactic match to match. I have core principles and adjust according to opposition; things like mentality and certain roles and duties. 

This is precisely what I mean about the principle of charity. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

On 21/12/2018 at 10:01, Iutbsco said:

Following the fix I went from winning roughly 2 points per game to less than 1 point per game. 

 

 

On 21/12/2018 at 10:06, FrazT said:

There were absolutely no  changes to the ME in the latest update

 

On 21/12/2018 at 13:17, Iutbsco said:

SOMETHING changed. Not my tactics, players or staff. Something definitely changed. 

 

31 minutes ago, The Dude said:

But if you start from a position of disagreeing with someone without giving serious consideration to their point of view, you argument begins as weak - because you've failed to adequately consider anything that might support their view.  And if you answer that with anything along the lines of "you're talking rubbish", I'm afraid you're not worthy of the debate. 

Well, quite. 

[Rashidi]

Ok this thread has degenerated into one pile of .... . Its full of ridiculous sounding conspiracy theories.

There was an update, my team was on a winning streak, and its still on a winning streak. The sample size some of you are pointing to does not prove, causality between the patch and results. If that was the case, it must happen to EVERYONE. I can also pick a save i just played from another user, where i showed him how his backline selection was the cause of his bad run. I changed it and he stopped losing.

There are many factors that could have led to a bad run, and blaming the patch is a cop-out. But since this thread has degenerated into taking personal pot shots at each other and because i can't be bothered to issue warnings to people I am just gonna shut this thread down. If you lot want to take pot shots at each other, the next time you do that you could be issued a warning. So play nice, get with the Xmas spirit, have some eggnog, go have fun. But please stop with the pot shots. 

I am closing this thread.