Learning how to play

[Deep-Lying Goalkeeper]

4 minutes ago, looping said:

Yes.

Sorry, forgot mentality. Counter+fluid. No TI, No PI (apart from PI by default). If I tell my cm to close down less I'll need somebody hassling opposition and this job could be done by my am-su, so I could tell him to close down more?

The am-su could hassle more, yes. But not necessarily. He could as well just man-mark the opponent's holding midfielder and thus limit their passing options. And if he is closing the opponent, he leaves "his post" as a link between the single striker and the rest of your team which naturally makes your counter attacks less dangerous.

[Deep-Lying Goalkeeper]

11 minutes ago, looping said:

This was my first impression. More aggression and less space needed in front of my box

Or even deeper D-line and even less aggression? High line and counter mentality seem a bit contradictory. 

[Bitner]

6 minutes ago, Deep-Lying Goalkeeper said:

The am-su could hassle more, yes. But not necessarily. He could as well just man-mark the opponent's holding midfielder and thus limit their passing options. And if he is closing the opponent, he leaves "his post" as a link between the single striker and the rest of your team which naturally makes your counter attacks less dangerous.

I like this approach. He has to close the man who recycles posession at the opponent. This will give your team a lot more chances to counter.

Cheers,
Bitner 

[looping]

Despite the results, I can't be happy. The reason is I don't know what I'm doing. This is not going to end well.

I have this:

What I'm doing is changing mentality. When I'm supposed to win, I play with standard mentality and when I'm expected to lose counter mentality (even defend against big ones). That's all.

[Dr. Hook]

4 hours ago, woland said:

Hello everyone.

And what if my team has poor decision attribute in comparing with other teams in league? How i can decrease effect of this issue?

You just play on and keep your football simpler while you gradually improve your squad :). Expect some dumb plays at times, but design your tactics as much as possible around not asking your poor mental game players to have to do too much. Provide as many easy passing options as you can, make sure you have players in support of each other who can easily cover for mistakes, that sort of things. 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, looping said:

Despite the results, I can't be happy. The reason is I don't know what I'm doing. This is not going to end well.

I have this:

What I'm doing is changing mentality. When I'm supposed to win, I play with standard mentality and when I'm expected to lose counter mentality (even defend against big ones). That's all.

Great, what's not to like?

- Results are excellent for any team, doubly so for Malaga.

- The tactic is broadly in line with your vision of how you want to play.

- You are adapting your tactic from match to match as the situation warrants.

- The system is simple: defenders defend; fullbacks support; wingers attack; midfield covers and supports; forwards attack.

- You are managing risk and allowing your players a little extra creative freedom.

I appreciate you may be pessimistic about the future given the problems you have faced, but when you say "I don't know what I'm doing" you're not giving yourself credit and over thinking things.  There really isn't anything else to understand.

[Ceching You Out]

Echoing what @herne79 said -- you're not giving yourself enough credit here for your success! You're doing exactly what you set out to do.

While you may not know entirely why switching mentalities is working, you can start to figure it out given what mentalities are supposed to do. As others have mentioned, Standard is basic/average/balanced. Switching to Counter means your defensive line drops some, your team closes down less, you play a little slower tempo and take fewer risks. Defend means an even deeper line, less closing down, slower tempo and fewer risks. Contain then is the extreme of those things.

So against better teams you're using a lower block, closing down less aggressively, being more careful with the ball in attack and taking no risks in defense unless there's zero pressure. Easy, no? Keep the same approach that's working and start looking for these changes. That will help you start to understand how to see the tactical changes in the ME.

If you keep winning teams will adjust their approach to you. That's a complicated way to say that better teams will start to play you more as an equal, worse teams will start to park the bus more as if you're a title challenger. At that point there are several things you could try and that includes using Control/Standard respectively (versus Standard/Counter).

[Feddo]

Wow that are some good results!!!

Third in la liga (why is it calledfirst division?)

17 against in 21 games inc 10 against from just the 4 games with most conceded. So that means 7 against in 17 other matches.

35 scored in those 21 matches and you have some momentum because the numbers are now better the in the beginning.

 

I think you need to be a bit more positive towards yourself. Maybe you think you don't understand, but I guess you know a bit more then you think. Good stuff, keep going!!

[NoTekkersRB]

Looping, I think you actually get it but you don't realise it! Those are some fantastic results. You've used all the advice people have given you and you're doing a fine job. Don't be too negative about not keeping enough clean sheets, that'll come with better players with the right attributes.

 

You should be very proud. Keep going.

[Bitner]

3 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

Looping, I think you actually get it but you don't realise it! Those are some fantastic results. You've used all the advice people have given you and you're doing a fine job. Don't be too negative about not keeping enough clean sheets, that'll come with better players with the right attributes.

 

You should be very proud. Keep going.

Agree  with the fella. All the effort definitely wasn't in vain

Cheers,
Bitner 

[looping]

7 minutes ago, Ceching You Out said:

Echoing what @herne79 said -- you're not giving yourself enough credit here for your success! You're doing exactly what you set out to do.

While you may not know entirely why switching mentalities is working, you can start to figure it out given what mentalities are supposed to do. As others have mentioned, Standard is basic/average/balanced. Switching to Counter means your defensive line drops some, your team closes down less, you play a little slower tempo and take fewer risks. Defend means an even deeper line, less closing down, slower tempo and fewer risks. Contain then is the extreme of those things.

So against better teams you're using a lower block, closing down less aggressively, being more careful with the ball in attack and taking no risks in defense unless there's zero pressure. Easy, no? Keep the same approach that's working and start looking for these changes. That will help you start to understand how to see the tactical changes in the ME.

If you keep winning teams will adjust their approach to you. That's a complicated way to say that better teams will start to play you more as an equal, worse teams will start to park the bus more as if you're a title challenger. At that point there are several things you could try and that includes using Control/Standard respectively (versus Standard/Counter).

 

10 minutes ago, Feddo said:

Wow that are some good results!!!

Third in la liga (why is it calledfirst division?)

17 against in 21 games inc 10 against from just the 4 games with most conceded. So that means 7 against in 17 other matches.

35 scored in those 21 matches and you have some momentum because the numbers are now better the in the beginning.

 

I think you need to be a bit more positive towards yourself. Maybe you think you don't understand, but I guess you know a bit more then you think. Good stuff, keep going!!

 

1 minute ago, NoTekkersRB said:

Looping, I think you actually get it but you don't realise it! Those are some fantastic results. You've used all the advice people have given you and you're doing a fine job. Don't be too negative about not keeping enough clean sheets, that'll come with better players with the right attributes.

 

You should be very proud. Keep going.

 

2 minutes ago, Bitner said:

Agree  with the fella. All the effort definitely wasn't in vain

Cheers,
Bitner 

 

I'm not convinced of my success..

Positive

- Results

- Style. We are sitting quite deep and hitting on the break. Good defense. Defenders defend, one midfielder runs the other stays, two wide players, a linking nº10 and an striker who is top scorer.

-Tactics. When I say "tactics are not important" is exactly this. I mean, with this tactic I'm almost telling my players, hey guys you know better. It's up to you. I'm not treating my players like robots, I give a few instructions but what happens on the pitch is up to them. They can take decisions despite my tactical instructions. I only manage if I want them to take more or less risks.

Negative

- I don't know exactly how I got here.

- Opponents are starting to play more cautions. To this moment, this situation has been solved by my AM (Juanpi) who scored 2-3 key unbelievable goals. At some point, this won't happen.

- My gk recently morphed into Lev Yashin

- This happened in the past. If you check any of my previous threads, I've experiencied in the past good starting runs (in fact, my first thread here was "20 games". Once teams play more defensive against me, Juanpi stops scoring goals from 40 metres and Lev Yashin leaves us, I will have no idea what to do.

 

Take a look at my last match. These are only stats, I know, but can give us a clear idea about what happened:

 

Minute 2 they had a ccc. If they had scored, bye bye. I had 2 shots from inside the box, both after set pieces. Juanpi scored a header when the last thing he has the ability to do is heading (this shows how on fire he is). Add to this, 2 absolutely key saves by Rajkovic (btw, I totally recommend this gk).

We are almost unbeatable now. We even defeated Atletico 0-2, again, with abracadabrant saves by Rajkovic. This will stop at some point, players will perform worse, I'll lose some matches, I'll have no idea what to do... On top of that, I'll give a couple of bad team talks and you'll see me close to being sacked. Again.

 

[Dr. Hook]

Are you afraid of success or something? Good lord, man! You get something working well based on thinking it out and applying it, and all you can do is worry about if its going to stop working.

[herne79]

41 minutes ago, looping said:

This will stop at some point, players will perform worse, I'll lose some matches, I'll have no idea what to do... On top of that, I'll give a couple of bad team talks and you'll see me close to being sacked. Again.

Save the game file at this point under a new name.  Keep it, don't do anything else to it so you now have two versions of the same game.

Go back to your original save and continue it.  See how you get on.  If you carry on doing well, great.  If you don't, tell us what you did and load your copy of the game (the one saved now) to a file sharing site.  I'm a little busy in the run up to Christmas, but if I get the chance I'll have a look at it and carry on playing the game - I'll let you know what I did and see how we compare.  There's a lot of interest here, so someone else may even have a look as well.

That way (assuming we actually do well of course!) we can tell you exactly what we did to see if you get any fresh ideas.

[BillHoudini24]

This is what I love in this forum. When someone really wants to receive help, he gets it in an overwhelming way. This is a great thread for beginners, even for intermediate players like myself. Thank you, to anyone who contributed and of course the OP for being so patient.

[Feddo]

 

1 hour ago, looping said:

Minute 2 they had a ccc. If they had scored, bye bye. I had 2 shots from inside the box, both after set pieces. Juanpi scored a header when the last thing he has the ability to do is heading (this shows how on fire he is). Add to this, 2 absolutely key saves by Rajkovic (btw, I totally recommend this gk).

Thats football. A lot of it is tactics, quality and money, but there's still a big part of luck involved. And luck is something you can have an influence on. In holland we have a saying "geluk dwing je af" wich means something like you force your own luck. I think thats form and your team has that at the moment.

You will run in some form of bad results. You allready had one you had 3 games in a row you didnt win! But you came back with a 3-0 win against atletico, and I think in that result lies a part of the anwser to your question. In that game you where able to change momentum. 

You've mastered the basics the next step in your proces is to alter those when you need too, A plan b or 'a formation 2.0'

 

[looping]

THis is going nowhere and I don't know what to do.

They scored 3 goals in 10 mins and I have no idea why.  I was winning 3-1 (first match I won 0-2) and they almost made the comeback. They didn't because I was terribly lucky. All that came to my mind was going from counter to defensive. 

 

 

This is not going to end well because I have no idea what to do. I've been winning because I've been lucky, there is nothing solid behind.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

3 hours ago, Dr. Hook said:

Are you afraid of success or something? Good lord, man! You get something working well based on thinking it out and applying it, and all you can do is worry about if its going to stop working.

 

Sounds like me really. Do well, start worrying, problems arise, whine about it, back to the drawing board, rinse and repeat.  It's a love hate thing.

[facman]

4 hours ago, Dr. Hook said:

Are you afraid of success or something? Good lord, man! You get something working well based on thinking it out and applying it, and all you can do is worry about if its going to stop working.

You said it!

I've just about had it with this thread. Moaning about losing, moaning about not playing the 'correct' way, now moaning about winning.

@looping people have been helping you for more than 9 pages. This thread has more than 13,000 views. Stop being so negative and try to be positive just once!

[BoxToBox]

2 hours ago, looping said:

THis is going nowhere and I don't know what to do.

They scored 3 goals in 10 mins and I have no idea why.  I was winning 3-1 (first match I won 0-2) and they almost made the comeback. They didn't because I was terribly lucky. All that came to my mind was going from counter to defensive. 

 

 

This is not going to end well because I have no idea what to do. I've been winning because I've been lucky, there is nothing solid behind.

Well really sometimes there is nothing you can do, sometimes things go wrong. In this case they got the momentum, your team faltered, but held on.

[looping]

Several players are unhappy about the lack of harmony around the club. They say it's my fault.

Literally, no idea what I did. Posible causes? Team talks? Some players want to leave?

 

Edit: I asked my captain: Everyone is getting along really well, we've got a great togetherness right now.

????

 

 

[Dr. Hook]

2 hours ago, looping said:

Several players are unhappy about the lack of harmony around the club. They say it's my fault.

Literally, no idea what I did. Posible causes? Team talks? Some players want to leave?

 

Edit: I asked my captain: Everyone is getting along really well, we've got a great togetherness right now.

????

 

 

They've been reading your thread here and are concerned about your lack of faith in them.

[looping]

On 7/12/2016 at 21:45, looping said:

THis is going nowhere and I don't know what to do.

They scored 3 goals in 10 mins and I have no idea why.  I was winning 3-1 (first match I won 0-2) and they almost made the comeback. They didn't because I was terribly lucky. All that came to my mind was going from counter to defensive. 

 

 

This is not going to end well because I have no idea what to do. I've been winning because I've been lucky, there is nothing solid behind.

As I said yesterday:

 

I was not complaining without any reason. I perfectly knew this was going to happen because it has happened many times in the past.

 

[NoTekkersRB]

...Are you being hard on your players again?

[looping]

2 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

...Are you being hard on your players again?

No. Don't worry guys bad luck blablabla. Last 3 games I shouted them aggressive. At least we won 1.

[Ceching You Out]

As I pointed out a few pages back, I suspect that when you hit a natural downturn in results your team talks compound the problem until you're in a tailspin. If you followed @herne79's advice above, reload the save from when you were doing well. Walk us through the next few games, step by step, with your team talks.

[looping]

2 minutes ago, Ceching You Out said:

As I pointed out a few pages back, I suspect that when you hit a natural downturn in results your team talks compound the problem until you're in a tailspin. If you followed @herne79's advice above, reload the save from when you were doing well. Walk us through the next few games, step by step, with your team talks.

It sounds weird because I hit previous natural downturns and my team recovered, but, yes, I followed @herne79 advice and I can reload the save in January. I'll do what you say,

[Bitner]

1 minute ago, looping said:

It sounds weird because I hit previous natural downturns and my team recovered, but, yes, I followed @herne79 advice and I can reload the save in January. I'll do what you say,

I would say to you speak more calmly to them, to try to relief the pressure. Don't know if it works, but...

Cheers,
Bitner 

[looping]

Just now, Bitner said:

I would say to you speak more calmly to them, to try to relief the pressure. Don't know if it works, but...

Cheers,
Bitner 

This is exactly what I did.

[looping]

[looping]

 

Looking nervous? This is something I noted in the past, even during the match. I tried telling my players calm, but nothing.

[Bitner]

1 minute ago, looping said:

 

Looking nervous? This is something I noted in the past, even during the match. I tried telling my players calm, but nothing.

If they're nervous, speak calmly, not assertively, and try to relieve the pressure, instead of piling it. Just a thought, though.

Cheers,
Bitner 

[looping]

[NoTekkersRB]

It sounds silly but honestly if at home, odds on favourite to win, tell them to relax and the result will come/play natural game if your players are better. Playing in front of your home fans can create enormous amount of pressure especially if you're expected to steamroll them causing them to be nervous. I would expect the opposition manager would likely tell his players to play their good luck as they have nothing to lose

[looping]

3 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

It sounds silly but honestly if at home, odds on favourite to win, tell them to relax and the result will come/play natural game if your players are better. Playing in front of your home fans can create enormous amount of pressure especially if you're expected to steamroll them causing them to be nervous. I would expect the opposition manager would likely tell his players to play their good luck as they have nothing to lose

Yes, but I'm afraid of overconfidence.

[NoTekkersRB]

I've seen better performances from my team when they are overconfident rather than nervous...

[looping]

2 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

I've seen better performances from my team when they are overconfident rather than nervous...

You may be right but fighting against complacency was not my idea: 

I don't know what to do: if I have a good run I must fight against complacency or relief pressure?

[looping]

6 October @Ceching You Out said:

That said, the notable thing here is your inability to pull out of the nosedive. Without breaking down your team talks and morale game by game, my instinct is that you're riding a decent tactic that exploits an over aggressive opponent, generating success, and positive morale snowballs. Once your opponents become a little more defensive or cautious so you lose your tactical edge, an unlucky result or two goes against you, and then you compound your team's misery with disruptive team talks.

It was fm16. We are now at the same point with fm17. I needed 1 year to get to this point with fm16. Less than 2 monthts with fm17. Keep smiling,

[Bitner]

1 minute ago, looping said:

6 October @Ceching You Out said:

That said, the notable thing here is your inability to pull out of the nosedive. Without breaking down your team talks and morale game by game, my instinct is that you're riding a decent tactic that exploits an over aggressive opponent, generating success, and positive morale snowballs. Once your opponents become a little more defensive or cautious so you lose your tactical edge, an unlucky result or two goes against you, and then you compound your team's misery with disruptive team talks.

It was fm16. We are now at the same point with fm17. I needed 1 year to get to this point with fm16. Less than 2 monthts with fm17. Keep smiling,

I would try to relief pressure, as you seem to try to push them at every possible opportunity. The right thing is to mix the team-talks, but the feeling needs time.

Cheers,
Bitner 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

5 minutes ago, Bitner said:

I would try to relief pressure, as you seem to try to push them at every possible opportunity. The right thing is to mix the team-talks, but the feeling needs time.

Cheers,
Bitner 

Sometimes you can go without saying anything. I do this especially when we're on good form. Just keep my mouth shut and let them go out and do their own thing. Half-time is when I can hammer them if they start being cocky, and full time is when I can manage expectations with praise or criticism. 

 

In the older FM's it was easier to gauge my pre-match talk by reading the Assistant report. He would say if certain players looked over-confident etc. But that seems to have been blocked in FM16+. A shame really.

[herne79]

Lots of team talk advice, but we don't know what rep and relationship Looping has as a manager and with his players (or their professionalism).  For example, a low rep manager without much player respect and a team full of idiots may benefit from giving more cautious team talks than a high rep manager who the players look up to and are a professional bunch.

That being said, the importance of morale and team talks can get a bit exaggerated sometimes which may distract from more serious issues (such as tactical ones).

By the way if you re-read my post above, I didn't suggest you reload the game save.  By all means do of course and see if you can learn anything new, but it isn't what I posted.

[Feddo]

Why not play FMT? Maybe its allready been suggested and you've explained why, but that game excludes all of this. I've only missed teamtalks when I wanted to yell at them 

[Mad Fortune]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have got the impression that team talks don't mean nothing. Even Cleon has said that he always lets his Assman handle team talks and press conferences.

[looping]

I don't understand.

Team talks mean nothing?

My issue is tactical related? Why? Everybody agreed I was doing well

What happened is what happens in every save. At some random point, I start conceding an outrageous amount of goals. This can happen since the first match, half of the season or final third. It's like a random point when I start conceding and nothing can be done.

What's next now? I post my save? I restart it?

[OLLMEISTER1]

On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 16:50, herne79 said:

Great, what's not to like?

- Results are excellent for any team, doubly so for Malaga.

- The tactic is broadly in line with your vision of how you want to play.

- You are adapting your tactic from match to match as the situation warrants.

- The system is simple: defenders defend; fullbacks support; wingers attack; midfield covers and supports; forwards attack.

- You are managing risk and allowing your players a little extra creative freedom.

I appreciate you may be pessimistic about the future given the problems you have faced, but when you say "I don't know what I'm doing" you're not giving yourself credit and over thinking things.  There really isn't anything else to understand.

It seems to me he will never be satisfied, he could win the league and still complain. You can only help and guide some people so far.

[looping]

12 hours ago, looping said:

As I said yesterday:

 

I was not complaining without any reason. I perfectly knew this was going to happen because it has happened many times in the past.

 

 

11 minutes ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

It seems to me he will never be satisfied, he could win the league and still complain. You can only help and guide some people so far.

Have you seen this results?

[looping]

I'm going to tell you a story.

Last weekend I was watching a football match. Team A against Team B.

Team A is a mid table team that had some bad results and now is fighting against relegation. Team B was expected to fight for promotion but bad results situated them in the middle of the table.

The match starts and Team B takes control of it. They have the possession and during the first 45 mins they create a couple of good chances but were unlucky and didn't score.

The second half starts and the match is the same. Team B has the control. Suddenly, Team B kicks a corner and scores.  It seems their work in the first half was not in vain.

In this situations, Team B can do 2 things: step back, play safer and try to hit on the counter or keep playing the same way showing authority.

Once they scored 0-1, what they actually did is to make 2 steps back and go too much deep and defensive.

Why this happens? Well, Team B was expected to fight for promotion and is failing in his attempt. They are under amounts of pressure by the fans and need this 3 points, so they say "guys, let's hold the lead". This is a total lack of self confidence because they were showing to be clearly better than Team A.

While this, Team A has no other option but to play more attacking.

Min 60 and nothing happened. Team B is too deep, allowing too much pressure. Their gk saved a chance after a mistake by one of their defenders (they are nervous). Team A is drilling the box with crosses with no success due to their total lack of quality.

Min 70 Team B makes 2 substitutions. They play a 4231 and replace one of the wingers who showed some signs of being tired (good) and, this is important, they replace one of the central midfielders. They play with a classic pairing, one more defensive the other more attacking-creative (a playmaker). The guy who is substituted is the playmaker, and he is substituted by a right defender. The initial right defender now is playing as a defensive midfielder and the initially destroyer midfielder seems to be now the creator (if there is such a thing at this moment where Team B only defends). 

This has 2 consequences: a) Team B has nobody in midfield who knows what to do with the ball and b) The coach seems to be telling the players "guys, we have to hold the lead no matter how". Message received, Team B sits even deeper.

What happened next? Team A kept drilling the box with crosses and finally scored 2 quite lucky goals. One after a cross and the other a penalty that only the referee saw. 2-1.

What did the coach say? He said Team B was unlucky and blamed the referee. While it's true Team B was not lucky with the first goal conceded and the penalty existed only in referee's imagination, the manager made a very bad decision with the replacement of the playmaker and allowing his team to play so deep. 

 

Why I tell you this?

I tell you this because, while this analysis can be wrong, I have an opinion about what I saw. When I play fm, I simply don't have an opinion. I don't know what the ME replicates and what it doesn't. I don't know if my players are lacking confidence or what is actually happening. I simply don't know, so I can't have an opinion. And this is my problem with fm.

[Ceching You Out]

15 hours ago, herne79 said:

By the way if you re-read my post above, I didn't suggest you reload the game save.  By all means do of course and see if you can learn anything new, but it isn't what I posted.

Well, that one is on me . Your original idea was a good one as well. Maybe give it a try as well?

[shadster]

18 hours ago, looping said:

As I said yesterday:

 

I was not complaining without any reason. I perfectly knew this was going to happen because it has happened many times in the past.

 

I think you are to harsh on you and your team.. You're training Málaga, 6th on Spanish League with Málaga seems great to me. Much of games you're loosing,you are supposed to loose them.  You can make great tactic, adapt to the game, but if you are Malaga and play against Real, Barcelona, Atlético, you are going to loose and conceed a lot at times. I still don't understand the game the way I would like, but now I do as much as you do, I change mentality according to the difficulty of game. I tried a tactic here on the forum, and the tactic was very similar to the ones I've being creating. It was the first time in years I did that, but was either that or not playing the game anymore. And I'm glad I've tried, because when I compared both tactics I found that the main difference was that the tactic is very fluid, and I always avoided to use that. And apparently it makes a huge difference. I'm telling this because maybe you are only a detail away to be satisfied with the way you set your team to play. And from there, you can adjust In game more easily.

[looping]

If anyone is interested, I can post videos of my matches so somebody can spot the issue for me. I hope I can identify then some patterns and after some time, I can do it on my own.

What I'm going to do is to post some seconds in a video and I'll do my analysis. I hope someone can tell me if I'm right or wrong.

[looping]

This:

 

https://vid.me/Z04m

My central defenders and central midfielders are closing down too much resulting on them being pulled out of position. Opponent had un deep runner who exploited this space. My left defender made a mistake and their right winger could receive the ball.

 

How to fix all this, no idea.