Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

[RTHerringbone]

However, and I feel I need to make this very clear........ using him as a DLF was a very valid play style. With a winger and an inside forward, I maintained my top position and within 6 games I was top of the league with the best goal difference. It just wasn't the way I wanted to play........

LAM

That is precisely how I was using and supplying him (I had an IF Support at AML and Winger Attack atAMR) and whilst Llorente was scoring and we were still winning, it resulted in "clunkier" football.

Since selling him, and since experimenting with a Trequarista role, there is far greater fluidity to my play and the results remain good. I also started dabbling with two IFs last night and initial results are promising. The most destructive player in my formation was always the attacking winger, with 0.5 goals per game, and just shy of 1 assist per game (seriously!).

In the handful of games since changing him to IF (and this guy is better suited to being a winger), he has maintained the assist rate but actually increased his goalscoring. Furthermore, this extra presence in the box is increasing my Trequarista's goal count too, no downside yet...

[Cleon]

Be wary if the Treq has low agility though as he won't be able to turn properly and he'll always be that 1 yard behind play. That's not to say someone like that can't do the role but you'll struggle to see them keep up with play if your wide players are fast.

[RTHerringbone]

Be wary if the Treq has low agility though as he won't be able to turn properly and he'll always be that 1 yard behind play. That's not to say someone like that can't do the role but you'll struggle to see them keep up with play if your wide players are fast.

I have an unhealthy obsession with players who are fast, with good acceleration and agility, so my front three are moulded in this image.

My current game is as Man Utd (accepted the job offer after a good first season with Spurs). Valencia is insane wide on the right, backed up by perfect PPMs for a winger, but so far equally adept as an IF.

On the left I picked up Shaqiri from Bayern for £15m and he is suited to both IF and Winger roles. The Treq role is currently occupied relatively well by Rooney or Welbeck, but Cavani has just been offered to me and I have money available. He appears suited to IF and probably will offer more as a Treq than Rooney, whose work ethic is lost as a Treq.

What I would like to do is see if I can get the front three swapping positions, because the Treq stretches the defence, and if I get him swapping with an IF, or the IFs swapping, it may cause more chaos. At the moment, I like the idea of having three IF type forwards, so Jovetic may be on my radar as he's listed at Fiorentina at the moment.

[lam]

Quick question buddy. What about the deep lying forward ensures Llorente gets into the box more than playing the treqaurtista? (just to help me visualise the controls in my head better)

The DLF has RFD mixed. This means if he makes a pass, he will get forward, rather than in the Treq role of making a pass and then staying put until the rest of the play simply drags him forward.

It's important to distinguish this, just because a player does not have RFD it doesn't mean he sits around. He WILL move up with the play, else a Treq in an FC role will just sit on the halfway line all game.

A mixed RFD will tell him to get forwards if the opportunity presents itself, whereas a Treq will get dragged forwards by the play. In the case of fast strikers, they make up this ground quickly which sees them arrive late in the box if the play has been quick or will be there naturally if the play has been patient.

I've started toying around with the shouts now as I am trying to work two things out. I want to understand ZONAL vs MM more, thus am not using the "hassle" as much, but also I am leaving the "push up" out a little as I want to give my front three more space to run into and play from deeper.

Playing deeper seems to suit Defoe MUCH better as he lacks the physical presence that Ade has but has bags of pace and ANTICIPATION. Throughballs and early crosses are the order of the day when Defoe is playing.

Also, I'm trying to use my Dline based on the position of their strike force.

LAM

[lam]

...........but Cavani has just been offered to me and I have money available. He appears suited to IF and probably will offer more as a Treq than Rooney, whose work ethic is lost as a Treq.

I wouldn't say "struggled" was the word to describe my experience with Cavani, however I found that his PPM was a little troublesome in getting him back into play. He has "comes deep" and he really does drop deep. I failed to get goals from him even close to the level that I can get from Ade. THough, like I was chatting to Cleon.... there really is NOONE quite like Ade..... try and find someone that has the sheer physical presence he does in the game!

However, Cavani was deadly from the right. He has bags of pace and his dribbling skills are great, BUT he also has good strength and balance. Like I mentioned, three games into season two he had bagged 7 goals and 2 assists or something.

He wouldn't unlearn his PPM which was annoying. The odd thing was I thought the PPM would have been ideal for him, but .... it didn't seem to be.

That said, he is an outstanding talent and can be played anywhere in that front three. As a tester you might want to save your game where you are now before purchasing him. Have a play with him and see what happens.

Funnily enough, I came very close to signing Rooney. I was just £10m short of it........ I was drooling at the prospect of Bale, Rooney and Cavani........... talk about tearing it up!!!!!!!!!

[JackDavies]

Be wary if the Treq has low agility though as he won't be able to turn properly and he'll always be that 1 yard behind play. That's not to say someone like that can't do the role but you'll struggle to see them keep up with play if your wide players are fast.

Just would like to agree with this.

Was struggling to get Lukaku to play well in the role. He has the pace to get back into the box (unlike the problem posed by Llorente) and so was struggling to pin down way he was playing poorly. He was always laying the ball of to wingers, but then never got back into the box to smash the header in ; the ball was being played in, with literally no-one in there.

On looking- his agility is 4 so perhaps this is why

[Cleon]

Just would like to agree with this.

Was struggling to get Lukaku to play well in the role. He has the pace to get back into the box (unlike the problem posed by Llorente) and so was struggling to pin down way he was playing poorly. He was always laying the ball of to wingers, but then never got back into the box to smash the header in ; the ball was being played in, with literally no-one in there.

On looking- his agility is 4 so perhaps this is why

It could be because it stops him passing and moving quickly because he's not able to turn around and face the opposite way fast enough. So he'd struggle when his back was to goal.

[JackDavies]

It could be because it stops him passing and moving quickly because he's not able to turn around and face the opposite way fast enough. So he'd struggle when his back was to goal.

Surprising how well you know my game without actually playing it!

I was genuinely shocked when i checked his PPM's- and plays with back to goal was not there . He always always is facing the wrong way, obviously he recieves the ball, but then has the turning circle of a Stephenson train.

[DeathJester]

Great thread, very insightful and thought provoking Cleon. Many thanks. I do have a question if you would be so kind....

Im looking to play similar in lineup / formation to you, however I want to swap out the DMC for a Libero. Any tips or advice on how I should implement this ?

[Kamil-S]

With TQ role in your team "more expressive" creative freedom has no effect to individual sliders. If you set default/normal creative freedom no slider will move left or right (but this change affects tactic familiarity).

[Cleon]

With TQ role in your team "more expressive" creative freedom has no effect to individual sliders. If you set default/normal creative freedom no slider will move left or right (but this change affects tactic familiarity).

Actually you're wrong it does change for the rest of the team.....

[Cleon]

Kamil-S - There is a bug (Ta Lam) that happens when you change screen sometimes and the sliders don't update, it's probably this you are experiencing. I can assure you though that the creative freedom for the team does change

[Kamil-S]

Kamil-S - There is a bug (Ta Lam) that happens when you change screen sometimes and the sliders don't update, it's probably this you are experiencing. I can assure you though that the creative freedom for the team does change

So I don't see it and it works? I have the same problem with FM2012 and FM2011...

[lam]

Kamil-S,

Are you saying that when you play a TREQ in the team, the players CF settings are adjusted automatically and that changes to the team setting CF don't affect the players?

This statement is what Cleon has answered, if you are talkig about something different then can you explain a little further.

Regards

[Cleon]

So I don't see it and it works? I have the same problem with FM2012 and FM2011...

More disciplined;

Default;

Expressive;

[llama3]

Considering the wealth of discussion now going on about the Trequartista - i thought it might be a good time to point out an old thread of mine from last year on the Trequartista:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/278074-Trequartista-a-discussion

Hope it helps some of you, as it seems quite relevant to this discussion at the moment.

[Cleon]

Considering the wealth of discussion now going on about the Trequartista - i thought it might be a good time to point out an old thread of mine from last year on the Trequartista:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/278074-Trequartista-a-discussion

Hope it helps some of you, as it seems quite relevant to this discussion at the moment.

Ah I'd forgot about that thread or I'd have included it myself. I reccomend everyone goes and reads it. Cheers for jogging my memory (I'm getting old )

[Kamil-S]

Little experiment:

1. Create tactic with more expressive CF and TQ role;

2. Create identical second tactic with default CF and TQ role;

3. Choose CF view;

4. Manually lock CF for DR at default level for both tactics (it should be the same notch in both tactics and the same as DL);

5. Change trequartista role in first tactic (with expressive CF) to poacher;

6. Switch to second tactic (default CF) to realise that no slider changes;

7. Switch back to first tactic and compare DR creative freedom and DL creative freedom. DR has default and DL has expressive (but at point 4 they have the same);

8. Change poacher role in first tactic (with expressive CF) again to trequartista;

9. Switch to second tactic (default CF) to realise that CF is lower for all team;

10. Switch back to first tactic to realise that CF level dropped back because of TQ role.

[Cleon]

Little experiment:

1. Create tactic with more expressive CF and TQ role;

2. Create identical second tactic with default CF and TQ role;

3. Choose CF view;

4. Manually lock CF for DR at default level for both tactics (it should be the same notch in both tactics and the same as DL);

5. Change trequartista role in first tactic (with expressive CF) to poacher;

6. Switch to second tactic (default CF) to realise that no slider changes;

7. Switch back to first tactic and compare DR creative freedom and DL creative freedom. DR has default and DL has expressive (but at point 4 they have the same);

8. Change poacher role in first tactic (with expressive CF) again to trequartista;

9. Switch to second tactic (default CF) to realise that CF is lower for all team;

10. Switch back to first tactic to realise that CF level dropped back because of TQ role.

It changes, look at the screenshots I posted.

I've no clue what you're on about

[llama3]

Ah I'd forgot about that thread or I'd have included it myself. I reccomend everyone goes and reads it. Cheers for jogging my memory (I'm getting old )

Didn't post it though to prevent you from discussing it too though - if you have things to add about it, or a new take don't stop on my account. Great role, needs more discussion.

[Cleon]

Didn't post it though to prevent you from discussing it too though - if you have things to add about it, or a new take don't stop on my account. Great role, needs more discussion.

I don't mind, feel free to add anything. It's all relevant

[Kamil-S]

It changes, look at the screenshots I posted.

I've no clue what you're on about

Maybe I'm idiot but I don't see difference between second and third screenshot

[Cleon]

Maybe I'm idiot but I don't see difference between second and third screenshot

I might have uploaded the same screenshot twice, I do that a lot . I'll check when I go back on tonight. But none the less, the first one is completly different and you said it didn't change

[Kamil-S]

Kamil-S,

Are you saying that when you play a TREQ in the team, the players CF settings are adjusted automatically and that changes to the team setting CF don't affect the players?

This statement is what Cleon has answered, if you are talkig about something different then can you explain a little further.

Regards

I'm saying that there is no expressive creative freedom option for teams with trequartista role. There are only two settings - default/normal and less creative freedom.

Edit

Expressive creative freedom with AF role:

[ashlfcowen]

Cleon, what price would you pay for a player who is absolutely perfect for a role in your XI? £47M?

[lam]

That sounds like either Cavani or Naymar.....

[Cleon]

I'm saying that there is no expressive creative freedom option for teams with trequartista role. There are only two settings - default/normal and less creative freedom.

Edit

Expressive creative freedom with AF role:

Ahh sorry. Now I understand what you mean. I think I had my wires crossed

Cleon, what price would you pay for a player who is absolutely perfect for a role in your XI? £47M?

Well if they are perfect then you'd pay whatever surely?

[ashlfcowen]

That sounds like either Cavani or Naymar.....

It's funny you say that, as it's neither.

It's actually Mattias Destro. After reading through both yours and Cleons post, I've come to an understanding of what is actually expected of the Treq for him to perform "perfectly" so to speak. Finishing 16, Dribbling 15, Passing 14, Anticipation 15, Pace 16, Agility 17...

I already have Cavani, but he's much more effective on the right cutting inside, and Insigne has fitted in nicely on the left again cutting inside. I have both Sterling and Suarez alternating with them two , so really the only position I need to fill is the Treq, Borini is good but not a world beater...I suppose neither is Destro, yet...

Would you pay this? Or would you go all out for Neymar?....the problem I have with Neymar is his poor team work - I don't think the Treq position is suited to a ball hogger!

[llama3]

I paid £7m for Destro in Summer 2014 - very good, balanced addition - I have him playing the similar (but not identical) Deep lying Forward (Support)

[ashlfcowen]

I paid £7m for Destro in Summer 2014 - very good, balanced addition - I have him playing the similar (but not identical) Deep lying Forward (Support)

£7M? Lucky sod. Genoa are wanting my whole bank balance here. But my search function tells me he is the only player worth buying for that position. The bonus is his PPM's, or moreso lack of. He just wants to round the keeper, no dropping deep!

[Cleon]

It's funny you say that, as it's neither.

It's actually Mattias Destro. After reading through both yours and Cleons post, I've come to an understanding of what is actually expected of the Treq for him to perform "perfectly" so to speak. Finishing 16, Dribbling 15, Passing 14, Anticipation 15, Pace 16, Agility 17...

I already have Cavani, but he's much more effective on the right cutting inside, and Insigne has fitted in nicely on the left again cutting inside. I have both Sterling and Suarez alternating with them two , so really the only position I need to fill is the Treq, Borini is good but not a world beater...I suppose neither is Destro, yet...

Would you pay this? Or would you go all out for Neymar?....the problem I have with Neymar is his poor team work - I don't think the Treq position is suited to a ball hogger!

He lack Technique and passing.

And Neymar is fantastic as Treq, he does need team work but its more vital he has the workrate as his role is to create space. Sometimes it helps for him to be a bit selfish. Here are his stats from my 2nd season;

Not to bad at the role if you ask me

Plus he can do this

[video=youtube;EXQiUtzYtc0]

[ashlfcowen]

He lack Technique and passing.

And Neymar is fantastic as Treq, he does need team work but its more vital he has the workrate as his role is to create space. Sometimes it helps for him to be a bit selfish. Here are his stats from my 2nd season;

Not to bad at the role if you ask me

Plus he can do this

[video=youtube;EXQiUtzYtc0]

You're not wrong. He doesn't look bad at all.

How much did he cost you?

[Cleon]

You're not wrong. He doesn't look bad at all.

How much did he cost you?

£33 million at end of first season, he was transfer listed.

[ashlfcowen]

Santos were rejecting, so I made the mistake of trying to endorse him. Neymar himself appreciated it, his manager - not so much.

ooops.

[Cleon]

Beating The Best

Playing Barcelona is never an easy task especially in the first few seasons as they still have a great squad. I recently played them in the Super Cup after I won the Europa League. I tend to get asked a lot about how I set up to face the bigger sides so I thought I'd use this game as an example for now. More games will be discussed later in the thread but this one was quite intriguing.

Don't worry I'm not skipping through the games or the tactical changes I've done, I just thought this would make a better discussion point for now. So I'll explain any changes I've done and not spoke about in the thread further down.

Here are my results up-to the point where I played Barcelona;

I had a pretty easy pre-season because I like to build morale and confidence up so I tend to stay away from playing the bigger teams. The start to the season didn't exactly go to plan and I was conceding more goals than I had like. But I have brought a few new players into the club who need time to settle in and adapt.

I'm going to show you what the result was before hand though as it saves me time editing all the images I'll use. So here is the result and the formations used by both teams;

They lined up as I expected them to. So what was the plan of action to stop them from playing? Well firstly Messi is always hard to play against and is more or less impossible to mark. So taking that into consideration the best way to stop Messi is?.........cut off his supply. If he doesn't get the supply he can't be dangerous and hurt my side.

The key areas for me to stop Barcelona playing is not to allow the central midfielder's to play a high passing game. If they want to sit deep and pass it around between themselves then that's fine as they can't hurt me from deep. So I've decided to tight mark the midfield trio of Barca so they have less time on the ball. Hopefully this will stop them being creative and pulling the strings in midfield.

Another area that is key is the wide players. The AML and AMR are deadly as are highlighted in my own formation. So I also have to take this into account and prepare.

As this is in season two I now use two inside forwards. So that is the only change from the original tactic that I posted.

For this game though I'm going to give both the inside forwards support roles to help out more on the wings and close the gap between my own wing-backs and the inside forwards. The reason for this is Barcelona will look to exploit this space and it's one of the main strengths of the 41221 formation. So by providing the extra cautious measure it should reduce the space and also mean my own inside forwards aren't to high up the pitch and marked by Barca's fullbacks. I'm basically giving myself more space for them to play in and trying to utilise their pace/acceleration. You can see what I mean better in the screenshot below from the match;

You can see that they are playing in-front the fullback but behind the wingers. In the next screenshot you can see the amount of space the the inside forward actually has and what runs he could make should he receive the ball.

The black circles are my defensive midfielder and my other midfielder's sticking to their man. My two central defenders are quite deep and should provide the cover should the midfield mess up and allow Messi to get free. Because he has the pace and skill to punish me its vital there is some kind of cover because I'd be being naïve if I didn't think Messi would beat his marker a few times in this game. However Sandro is instructed to man mark him because of his physical side of the game. Messi is little and technical but a lightweight in comparison compared to Sandro.

[Cleon]

The next screenshot shows how deep Barcelona are playing when I attack them.

They have everyone back in their own half which is good for me from a defensive situation as it means they can't hurt me. It does mean they are harder to break down but that doesn't matter. If they can't get forward they can't score which is half the battle won already. You'll also notice I have 3 spare players in defence just in case they break away quick.

In the next screen you'll see Messi about to receive the ball from his fullback. He is marked and got his back to the goal so he's no threat at all. He doesn't really have any options to play a pass or to play the ball. I have players positioned who can can deal any threat should he win the ball.

By tight marking through the OI's Barcelona have no creativity in the middle of the park at all. They are doing lots of backward and sideways passes but there not coming out of their own half.

When my side gets the ball they build up from the back and pass it across goal, been very patient.

It seems I've lost some of the potency going forward with the support roles for the inside forwards but it's also keeping Barcelona quiet as they just cannot get out of their own half because I am pushing high up and compacting the middle. At times its like I have a flat 4 in midfield due to the IF's helping out.

This is one of the occasions they attacked me

They can't really hurt me from here and I have the centre covered should Messi get a ball across, which he doesn't in the end anyway.

It's evident early on and for the entire game that Messi's supply is limited and the Barcelona midfield is dropping to deep to try and find the space and time due to been closed down heavily and tight marked.

In the end the stats for the game looked like this

That's right one shot for Barcelona and it wasn't even on target. How many times can you say you've seen that happen?

You'll notice that Barca's defensive players passing wasn't that great. This is because time after time the fullbacks were doing long balls into the channels due to been pegged back or having no options to pass to in the midfield.

[Cleon]

Baby's crying I'll try and finish this off later

[Babak G]

Wow impressive. Just a question do you re-do matches to get the tactics right or does it really come off like you just described from the first go?

[Cleon]

Wow impressive. Just a question do you re-do matches to get the tactics right or does it really come off like you just described from the first go?

I never re-do any match ever.

[Babak G]

Your instinct when it comes to judgment must have had years of fine-tuning so things work out well. I could see a lot of second guessing by someone who hasnt looked at things so in-depth till date.

[legacalcoo11]

Great reading Cleon . And your custom views looks great, cant wait to hear more

[mikcheck]

Cleon, amazing thread like always.

I assume that vs Barça you did use the shouts you normally use plus those OI's against their midfielders?

[Kamil-S]

Cleon,

I guess you didn't use "hassle opponents" shout against Barcelona. Am I correct?

[Cleon]

Cleon, amazing thread like always.

I assume that against Barça you did use the shouts you normally use plus those OI's?

Indeed I did

[Keyzer Soze]

Hi Cleon,

is there any thread talking about the interpretation of stats and helping people how to read them?

I asking this, because in my latest league match, i drew 1-1 away. I had more possession, more shots, more CCC, in fact my team was far better in every stats of the game (except in tackles won), and yet i failed to win.

I was wondering if looking at this stats i should see something, that i am missing at the moment, to help me understand why i couldn't win.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

is there any thread talking about the interpretation of stats and helping people how to read them?

I asking this, because in my latest league match, i drew 1-1 away. I had more possession, more shots, more CCC, in fact my team was far better in every stats of the game (except in tackles won), and yet i failed to win.

I was wondering if looking at this stats i should see something, that i am missing at the moment, to help me understand why i couldn't win.

I talk about them a bit in here The SI Sports Centre - All You Need To Know About FM

I guess you are just focusing on team stats and not the stats from the analysis tab? The analysis tab tells you so much more because you can view each tackle, pass, shot etc back and see exactly why you missed, got tackled and so on

[Cleon]

Cleon,

I guess you didn't use "hassle opponents" shout against Barcelona. Am I correct?

I'll look when I load the game up next but I think I used all the shouts I normally do, so I'd have presumed I did.

[Keyzer Soze]

I talk about them a bit in here The SI Sports Centre - All You Need To Know About FM

I guess you are just focusing on team stats and not the stats from the analysis tab? The analysis tab tells you so much more because you can view each tackle, pass, shot etc back and see exactly why you missed, got tackled and so on

Ok, thks

[ashlfcowen]

Oh god I went a bit OTT in the summer and now I'm in a bit of sticky situation in regards to who I should play and what "theory" I should work with.

I currently have a choice of;

DMC - Lucas, M'Vila, Fernando

DLP/AP - Honda, Lucas, Shelvey, Gerrard, Wilshere, Suso

I really like the thought of Honda in the DLP position, but torn between Shelvey who has come on leaps and bounds, Gerrard and Wilshere for the AP.

EDIT: That Barca analysis is absolutely fantastic.

[JackDavies]

I see your still using Vertonghen as the BPD Cleon, how is he getting on?

As mentioned before I'm trying this with West Brom, and I'm keen to make a January addition in this area. I'm struggling to find defenders that have both passing and composure. Having looked at Vertonghen , I can see he is more better composed than a passer. Do you think it would be wise to reduce my expectations in passing ability for the CB and prioritise composure?

P.S - 2nd after 8 games with West Brom, had some almighty tactical tinkerings with shouts (something I dont use to often) and I think the players suit the formation very nicely so am fortunate. Getting a lot of enjoyment out of getting a better understanding of different players in different positions dependant on attributes and ppms etc