Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

[Cleon]

I have a question about something I noticed the last few days.

I'll describe the situation, if it is not clear enough I see if i can find a screenshot. I am playing a 4222 box with a MCL, an AMRC and both wingbacks attacking. The ball gets passed from left to right to Kovacic my AMRC. Vrsaljko my RB has come forward and now makes the run, there is no ML or DL within 5 meters. Kovacic is uncovered. My strikers are bothering the DCs. Now Kovacic passes.....into Vrsaljkos feet. Vrsaljko has to wait and the LB catches up with him.

Regardless of almost all settings and shouts, WHY does he do this? I see this happen so often, also with throughballs to strikers, MCs etc. They just won't pass them in front of the player.

This just can't be purely bad decisionmaking. But I also don't see how this can be due to tactics, the space is there, the run is there, the AMC is at the right spot at the right time, its an easy pass cause theres no pressure from defenders.

Anyway suggestions?

Another question: i wanted to play 4222 with 2dmcs 2mcs but I use Kovavic as AMC (AP-a) because he has 'drop deep to get ball' ppm. Do you agree with that reasoning?

Thanks in advance to any answerers.

It could be a number of reasons tbh. Hard to say without seeing it though. Although, just because you can see an easier options doesn't mean the player can.

[Earnie is God!]

Hey Earnie..... I've had a few late ones with this version of the game, though I can't say I've had any 5am'ers......

Thanks for the kind words, it' comments like that that make me want to post more often, not that I'm a tactical wizard by any stretch of the imagination.

Just to reply to a few of your queries.

• Around 60% of my games are still played with a WINGER in the AMR position. This is normally Lennon as he is far better at being a WINGER than an INSIDE FORWARD. But if he gets a good break and can put space between himself and the chasing pack, he'll get in and score (or blast it wide with his 10 finishing). My point is - It's versatile, you can use anyone, but it will work slightly different to what Cleon setup with. If you have a slow creative player then consider the AP(S) in teh AMR positon, if they are creative and fast and can run then the AP(A) can be good. If they are just fast and not much else then stick with the IF(A).
  
• If you have poorer wingbacks that are not good at attacking (crossing or passing or both?????) then consider lowering their Cross/TTB instruction. If they are a litte slow or lack dribbling skills then lower the RWB, if they are a little poor in everthing then lower most things and make sure "cross from" is at most mixed. It might be worth looking at the FULLBACK instructions rather than WINGBACK.
  
• Two further comments in relation to the FB's. If you dont have attacking players then try to find someone that can jump as this significantly increases the interceptions they have, especially against Direct playing teams. Don't be immediately tempted to change them to (S) roles as they are weak. Sometimes you'll need to maintain their higher mentality to ensure they are high enough up the pitch to start closer to their opposite number. This is dependant upon your STYLE of play (Philosophy)
  

Overall the thread was about understanding your tactic, so it's unlikely that you'll have identical instructions to Cleon or I, one simple reason..... myself and Cleon have different instructions to eachother and probably did so after about just ten games.

Regards

LAM

For sure. I appreciate that it's not a simple 'copy and paste' tactic but that it can be the basis to build your own tactic from. The system looked to suit the vast majority of my starting squad so that's why I went for it. I am tweaking it all along to try and find what suits my team the best.

If I encounter serious problems with my fullbacks, I'll change their settings to suit.

Mason, my young Treq, has good stats in the right places to build upon for that role. The problem with him, however, is that he "comes deep to collect the ball". I've gone into his individual training but the PPM option is greyed out for him but it's not for other players. Mason's not currently learning any new moves but I have only been manager for a month, it is still pre-season and he is only 21yo. So I have two questions:

1) Is it random as to which players you can teach a new move to or does it depend on things such as age of player, what time of the season it is or how long you have been manager?

2) For players who I am able to suggest new PPMs to, I don't see an option to delete/unlearn a PPM. Is that possibility random too or, again, are there certain variables that have to be met first?

Some of the notes I've written down from this thread I am not sure now whether it was yourself or Cleon who spoke about them (think it was you) but, after my post last night, I played Atletico Madrid in a pre-season friendly. They set up with a similar 433/451 formation with plenty of quality in midfield so I took your advice and set the individual tactics to zonal marking and then man marked their 3 central midfielders using the OI. I also set my winger and IF to support to try and combat their wingers.

They were still dangerous as they are a far superior side but we had more shots than them in the end and had 5 CCCs to their 0 and won the match 3-0. Needless to say I was delighted! It also helped that Falcao had to go off injured very early on but I'll gloss over that and bask in my glory

It was a vast improvement on the 1-0 defeat to Mallorca 3 days previously. We were pretty awful and resorted to long range shots all game. It really is amazing how some simple tweaks can really make a difference.

I know it's still very early days and I'm not going to get carried away but it looks promising.

I also took loads of photographs of posts in this thread with my phone, mainly of tactic/custom view screenshots and about the shouts, so I don't have to keep switching from the game to this thread when trying to implement them into my game

[lam]

PLayers that are tutoring or being tutored can NOT learn PPM's. So that might be your problem.

The options to remove PPM's are in teh exact smae place as learning them. The descriptions are very slightly different.

Awesome result against AM!

I'm a big fan of selected Man Marking. The MC's are the only instruction I will set before the game starts, but I still like to see how the first 15 minutes or so pan out.

I had an intesting game against Juve last night. Two leg game, away to them in the first leg. Within 15 minutes I was 3-0 down. I was stunned, I couldn't even work out how they were doing it. I then deciced that I would just mark out some of their men in an attempt to break their game a little. I got back into a little, but conceded another goal...... 4-0 at half time....... needless to say the team got a rocket up their arses at half time.... I then MM'd a few more players and the game finished 4-2! so, not a great result.

In the return game I was terrified, but I just took what I did in the second half of hte first game and marked out some key players including their ML/R's (they played a 352 flat). and we went through with a 4-6 aggregate.

It's unusual for a team to dominate so effectively in the first 15 minutes and by that point my COUNTER ATTACK team werent really countering anything..........

[Earnie is God!]

"Players that are tutoring or being tutored can NOT learn PPM's. So that might be your problem."

Indeed it is as he is being tutored by Bellamy. That'd explain it.

"The options to remove PPM's are in the exact same place as learning them. The descriptions are very slightly different."

Hmm, all I seem to see in a player's training page is 'request new move from...' and then it gives me a list of my coaches to ask. What am I missing here? Or is it somewhere else I should be looking?

"Awesome result against AM!"

He he I know. I'm off to play again now. About to start the season with a League Cup trip to Oxford but will keep an eye out for your reply about where to unlearn PPMs.

Thanks.

Excellent result for your boys v Juve too. KUTGW

[lam]

You're heading the right way with "learn a new move", the game considers unlearning a new move to be learning a new move, if that makes sense....... you gain and remove PPM's from the exact same instructions.

[Earnie is God!]

Right, so if I instruct someone to 'learn' the same move he has already then this means that he will unlearn it?

The other thing I thought of was that maybe if I got him to learn the move which is the direct opposite of one he already has then that might make him unlearn the original one too.

I found this on another thread... 'You can interact with the player to "un-learn" a PPM. They might not always agree to do so however.'

Is that incorrect?

Apologies for all the questions. Perhaps it's simple and I'm making it sound really difficult for me to understand :-/

[Earnie is God!]

I've looked and it's worded differently than I expected but have found the answer.

Bellamy, for example, likes to try and beat the offside trap. In the PPM training options, there isn't the option for him to STOP that but to START learning how to stop being caught offside, which of course amounts to the same thing.

From my understanding, learning a new move takes about 6 months? As Mason is being tutored at the moment, I'll have to wait for that to finish first. Any idea how long tutoring takes? I've done it before but can't remember. A couple of months was my guess.

[VoteForPedro]

Hi guys, I am trying to play with 3 CD and no wingers and I am having some issues with it. I am trying to play high possession game with following instructions:

Balanced

Counter

Shorter passing

More Expressive

Zonal Marking

Press more

Shouts that I have been using are as follows:

Retain possession

Push Higher

Hassle Opponents

Work Ball into a Box

The idea behind all this was for DLP to get the ball from the back, all midfielders going between lines and doing short passes. Wingbacks would provide width and with striker being on the back of two opposition CD. Playing as Arsenal most of my players have attributes to play free flowing, short passing possession style of play and I also bought Isco from Malaga.

The problem is that I am actually getting less then 50 % of possession per game and I am conceding lots of shots. I also find very hard to get in the possession of the ball even though I have been using Hassle Opponents all the time. It is harder for opponent to go through the middle due to the numbers of players present in my midfield and lots of those shots are long shots. In terms of results I have recently started season and my last two games were draws against Man U and Schalke 1 - 1 in both matches. Against Man U I was outplayed throughout the whole game and they had over 20 shots but lot of them long shots. In the last 15 minutes of the game I changed formation to common 4 - 1 - 2 - 2 -1 and scored goal pretty quickly to draw the game 1 - 1. I always played that formation and I am quite familiar with it and I am just trying to do something different with playing 3 central defenders and no wingers. I also find that lots of Teams tend to press quite high up and I cannot build the game from the back. I tried to counter attack that with Shout Play in Space but that just cause for lots of through passes to go straight to opposition.

Obviously I am doing something wrong here and I am trying to work out what that is. Any help would be much appreciated and please let me know if any further info re my tactics is required. Sorry I am at work now and not able to provide any screenshots.

*****************************GK**********************************

******************CD - D*********BPD - D***********CD - D*********************

**WB - A********************DLP - S********DM - S*********************WB - A****

************************AP - S*********AP - A****************************

*****************************P*********************************

[Shake Appeal]

(they played a 352 flat).

Is Conte still their manager? That's interesting to me if SI interpret his preferred formation as 3-5-2 flat with ML/MRs instead of wing backs. I don't think I've had an ML/MR in a tactic I've built in years, so I must investigate how their instructions compare to WBs. Might be useful when I finally get around to playing with a back three.

[Cleon]

Hi guys, I am trying to play with 3 CD and no wingers and I am having some issues with it. I am trying to play high possession game with following instructions:

Balanced

Counter

Shorter passing

More Expressive

Zonal Marking

Press more

Shouts that I have been using are as follows:

Retain possession

Push Higher

Hassle Opponents

Work Ball into a Box

The idea behind all this was for DLP to get the ball from the back, all midfielders going between lines and doing short passes. Wingbacks would provide width and with striker being on the back of two opposition CD. Playing as Arsenal most of my players have attributes to play free flowing, short passing possession style of play and I also bought Isco from Malaga.

The problem is that I am actually getting less then 50 % of possession per game and I am conceding lots of shots. I also find very hard to get in the possession of the ball even though I have been using Hassle Opponents all the time. It is harder for opponent to go through the middle due to the numbers of players present in my midfield and lots of those shots are long shots. In terms of results I have recently started season and my last two games were draws against Man U and Schalke 1 - 1 in both matches. Against Man U I was outplayed throughout the whole game and they had over 20 shots but lot of them long shots. In the last 15 minutes of the game I changed formation to common 4 - 1 - 2 - 2 -1 and scored goal pretty quickly to draw the game 1 - 1. I always played that formation and I am quite familiar with it and I am just trying to do something different with playing 3 central defenders and no wingers. I also find that lots of Teams tend to press quite high up and I cannot build the game from the back. I tried to counter attack that with Shout Play in Space but that just cause for lots of through passes to go straight to opposition.

Obviously I am doing something wrong here and I am trying to work out what that is. Any help would be much appreciated and please let me know if any further info re my tactics is required. Sorry I am at work now and not able to provide any screenshots.

*****************************GK**********************************

******************CD - D*********BPD - D***********CD - D*********************

**WB - A********************DLP - S********DM - S*********************WB - A****

************************AP - S*********AP - A****************************

*****************************P*********************************

Are you facing a lot of tactics that are 433/451/41221 hybrids of some kind? If so they have the advantage over the shape you are using naturally, so you have to work hard to combat it.

You should read this as it highlights the weakness in the shape you are using and goes into detail about it;

http://footballmanageranalysis.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/system-analysis-3-5-2/#more-143

[ohitstrue!]

how do i get a player to unlearn a ppm? i cant see how to do it fm13

[b101]

http://footballmanageranalysis.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/system-analysis-3-5-2/#more-143

Did not know about that site... there goes a few hours

[Earnie is God!]

how do i get a player to unlearn a ppm? i cant see how to do it fm13

I found this out yesterday, largely thanks to Lam but also looking into it myself.

Interact with the player or go through the training page and request new move from a coach.

In there will be the option to stop him doing whatever it is he has learnt to do. It might be worded differently like in my Bellamy example above in post #957

From what I have found out, the only time you can't do this is if that player is currently being tutored.

[nick1408]

I think it has finally dawned. I am still at Everton but in a second incarnation (I got sacked so added myself in as the 'new' Everton manager). No regens in my side yet and the squad is looking like this:

From here I noted that:

- Tim Howard cannot fulfill the role of a sweeper keeper (doesn't have the mental attributes) so he is to be a GK Defend.

- There are a fair few deep lying playmakers, or at least players who can fill this role and not so many players who can win their own ball in the midfield.

- None of my up front players can play as a trequartista

- No defender can fit in as a ball playing defender

- My full backs are great. Seamus Coleman, who I think is very under-rated in the game can both attack and defend to a degree required at EPL level.

- The wing players I have are not super quick (~15 for accelleration and pace) but are quick enough to play as inside forwards or wingers, depending on what role I choose to be wide. Also worth noting is none of them are great crossers (all between 9-14)

From here, I decided that I wanted to play a possession type of game due to having the 6th best passing in the EPL (average of 13.75, top being 14.83), but realised that the passing will not be starting from the CB's as they are not those type of players. Leighton Baines could become a passing option but Coleman could not so I couldn't use the full backs as the passing option as Baines would be closed down in no time. I would need a DM to start the passing move, with Baines as the alternate. This choice was what lead me to the rest of the formation of a 4-1-2-2-1 as per the opening post. While it may seem like a copy it is due to my defenders not being able to thread passes.

With the formation now set it was time to choose the duties and roles. The GK was done from the start - GK Defend. Only thing I need to adjust is to distribute to a defender. I don't care which one as the defender is not there to thread passes, just pass an easy ball to a more creative, better passing player. Next, the centre backs. I did choose to go with a stoper/cover option but after reading the Everton team guide in the GP&T board decided on something that had not occoured to me - make the stopper a limited defender and the cover a regular centre defender. The limited defender just needs to close down the attacking player quickly. If he fails he has a more accomplished defender behind him to fix the faults.

Finally, the full backs. I have decided to make them attacking wing backs. The reason here will become more apparent later but I need them getting forward to provide crosses into the box as they are my best crossers on the ground. Also, because they are pushing forward the offer wide passing options. Defensively, both are quite adept. The one thing I am thinking of changing is Leighton Baines to a support role as supporting wing backs are set to through balls often and Baines is a reletively good passer. Coleman will always stay attacking.

So far the side is looking like this:

Tim Howard (GKd)

Seamus Coleman (WBa) - Ezequiel Munoz (CDc) - Shane Duffy (LDx) - Leighton Baines (WBa)

As alluded to, I am going with a five man midfield. As mentioned, I must have a DM due to my back four not being able to distribute the ball well. Here, most people would go for a defensive type of player. Not me. I have decided to lump my deep lying playmake support here. The CM's will help cover him, and they will need to - he is set to my team's main playmaker. This will mean he recieves the ball deep, hold it and move the ball onto a more advanced player or an advancing full back. He also has the ability to move the ball himself if the opposition is not allowing passing options for him. I have two players who can fill this role, Mark Noble and Vadis Odjidja. Both are of a similar ability with two differences - Noble is far more creative and Odjidja is much quicker. I haven't decided who I like better here yet. Odjidja is the current incumbant but Noble I feel will move in here due to his extra creativity.

I need someone to cover Noble when he has the ball. This duty has fallen to Fellaini. He can tackle, pass, has strength and likes to get forward. For this reason I have chosen to make him a deep lying playmaker defend. I thought about setting him as a ball winning midfielder but felt it was a waste of his passing abilities. The difference between the two roles are that a BWM takes long shots, doesn't give through balls and has far less creative freedom. The DLP also has a far greater passing range. This will allow Fellaini to be another creative outlet while also giving protection to my main creator in the DM position.

Beside Fellaini I have Ross Barkley as an attacking advanced playmaker. As he likes to get forward I needed the trough balls from Fellaini. He needs to be able to not only provide balls forward but also be a scoring option in the middle. Long shots for AP's are low by default so he is more likely to advance into the box before shooting. Effectively, when attacking he should advance to an AMC position in front of an advanced DM into the MC spot next to Fellaini. While attacking if he loses the ball there are two players befind him to cover. For this reason I am thinking of raising his RFD to often. I haven't done this but it is a thought.

The team is now looking like this:

Tim Howard (GKd)

Seamus Coleman (WBa) - Ezequiel Munoz (CDc) - Shane Duffy (LDx) - Leighton Baines (WBa)

Mark Noble (DLPs)

Maroune Fellaini (DLPd) - Ross Barkley (APa)

The next line gives me my wide players. On the right I have either of Kevin Mirallas or Steven Naismith. Both can dribble but crossing isn't good. For this reason I have chosen to give the AMR the role of winger support. In general, I don't like wingers as I thought they were players that lacked the ability to be a more creative to provide an attacking outlet. I am coming around to think that this isn't true. The reason I went for a support role is due to the lack of crossing ability in offered by either AMR and also the lack of height in the forward line. As the crossing is not good by getting in an early cross to the retreated striker, the AML or the AP (or hopefully all three) it allows the winger himself to get into the box and become a scoring option. I have realised that just because the position is called "Winger" it doesn't mean he only runs up and down the sidelines, he will come inside when he doesn't have the ball - especially if he has a PPM to tell him as much, which Mirallas has but Naismith doesn't. Both do move in channels, which I don't fully understand (I think it is a 'cuts outside' command) but I feel it would only apply when they are playing as strikers or AMC's.

With the right covered I need the left to be an attacking force. I cannot expect too many goals from Barkley or Mirallas so I have gone for an inside forward attacking at AML. Options I have here are Naismith, Thomas Drage and Magaye Gueye. Naysmith and Drage are right footed and Gueye is left footed. I started with Naismith here but have ultimately gone with Gueye. While Gueye is left footed I feel he is more likely to cross (again, not his best attribute at 9) but as he is in an attacking role he is more likely to put in a good left footed cross to a centred player than try and dribble through and get on his right foot to shoot, as a right footed player tends to do I find. Gueye also cuts inside, is a strong dribbler and is a competent finisher. He is actually a pretty good player to have here, but I do concede I would prefer him on the right (I haven't tried switchingthe tactic yet. I'm not sure of the outcome).

You can see my side is slowly coming to shape:

Tim Howard (GKd)

Seamus Coleman (WBa) - Ezequiel Munoz (CDc) - Shane Duffy (LDx) - Leighton Baines (WBa)

Mark Noble (DLPs)

Maroune Fellaini (DLPd) - Ross Barkley (APa)

Kevin Mirallis (Ws) - Magaye Gueye (IFa)

Finally, the striker. While Cleon went for a trequartista I had it pointed out to me that Nikica Jelavic does not fit this role. Because of this I have decided to put him in as a deep lying forward providing support to the AP, IF and winger. I have gone with support as I felt to put him in as attacking my make him get in the inside forwards way. Also, Jelavic can pass fairly well so through balls to the inside forward are not wasted by being too advanced. Being a supporting deep lying forward means he is not expected to score a lot of goals but is expected to provide the ball to get the goals. I also have Alberto Paloschi who is an acclomplished striker but does like to play far more forward. He is my option if I don't look like scoring. I can bring him on, make him an advanced forward and try and get balls to him to score. On the other hand, I can bring him on as the DLFs and let him try and create something from deep. He is more likely to get into the box and get a shot away than Jelavic. While both have the 'tries first time shots' PPM Jelavic has 'plays one-twos', which may lead him to try and find space before trying that first time shot. This delay in shooting gives time to close him down.

The final side running out on the park will look like this:

Tim Howard (GKd)

Seamus Coleman (WBa) - Ezequiel Munoz (CDc) - Shane Duffy (LDx) - Leighton Baines (WBa)

Mark Noble (DLPs)

Maroune Fellaini (DLPd) - Ross Barkley (APa)

Kevin Mirallis (Ws) - Magaye Gueye (IFa)

Nikica Jelavic (DLFs)

The team instructions are fairly simple I feel - a balanced, counterattacking style with short passing, more expressive creative freedom, default closing down, more aggressive tackling, zonal marking, drilling crosses and defalt roaming. The DM is set to be the playmaker and if I bring on the AF he is set as the targetman. I have noted I am 8th in creativity in the EPL so I am going to turn the creative freedom back down to default. Because I have attacking wing backs I chose not to have my centre backs advance too far so that is why closing down is default. I chose zonal marking as I feel it can be more effective with this type of game as it shouldn't pull players out of position. I am a fan of aggressive tackling but I think it is a personal preference. The playmaker being set I explained my reasoning earlier.

I am by no means a tactical genius. It took me a few goes to (I think) understand what Cleon is on about in this thread. As you can see I took a look at my players, made a decision on how I wanted to play and how best my players could work together. My feeling is how you want to play does come into it but not as much as the players at your disposal. I tried to make players fit into roles in previous posts but it just doesn't work. I needed to work out how to make the roles around players, not vice versa. I am sort of hoping what I have done has made sense. It isn't about the team as a whole when I built this, it was about the individual and how they best fitted into a side. I didn't really want a DM, I originally wanted three CM's with one dropping back and one coming forward but for that I needed a BPD, which I just didn't have. The other thing to note is I took over a side with pretty poor morale. I got an international break of 20 days so got two really easy friendlies in here to try and boost morale. The three games previous to this were played well but I felt the lack of the winning instinct let me down at times. I had Chelsea in two leagie games in a row, losing 2-1 and tieing 1-1. In both games I was ahead but let it go. I'm not too concerned as I feel the formation and tactic as a whole is solid enough to work well in the future, I just need to get my players to learn how to win.

[Cleon]

I think it has finally dawned. I am still at Everton but in a second incarnation (I got sacked so added myself in as the 'new' Everton manager). No regens in my side yet and the squad is looking like this:

From here I noted that:

- Tim Howard cannot fulfill the role of a sweeper keeper (doesn't have the mental attributes) so he is to be a GK Defend.

- There are a fair few deep lying playmakers, or at least players who can fill this role and not so many players who can win their own ball in the midfield.

- None of my up front players can play as a trequartista

- No defender can fit in as a ball playing defender

- My full backs are great. Seamus Coleman, who I think is very under-rated in the game can both attack and defend to a degree required at EPL level.

- The wing players I have are not super quick (~15 for accelleration and pace) but are quick enough to play as inside forwards or wingers, depending on what role I choose to be wide. Also worth noting is none of them are great crossers (all between 9-14)

From here, I decided that I wanted to play a possession type of game due to having the 6th best passing in the EPL (average of 13.75, top being 14.83), but realised that the passing will not be starting from the CB's as they are not those type of players. Leighton Baines could become a passing option but Coleman could not so I couldn't use the full backs as the passing option as Baines would be closed down in no time. I would need a DM to start the passing move, with Baines as the alternate. This choice was what lead me to the rest of the formation of a 4-1-2-2-1 as per the opening post. While it may seem like a copy it is due to my defenders not being able to thread passes.

With the formation now set it was time to choose the duties and roles. The GK was done from the start - GK Defend. Only thing I need to adjust is to distribute to a defender. I don't care which one as the defender is not there to thread passes, just pass an easy ball to a more creative, better passing player. Next, the centre backs. I did choose to go with a stoper/cover option but after reading the Everton team guide in the GP&T board decided on something that had not occoured to me - make the stopper a limited defender and the cover a regular centre defender. The limited defender just needs to close down the attacking player quickly. If he fails he has a more accomplished defender behind him to fix the faults.

Finally, the full backs. I have decided to make them attacking wing backs. The reason here will become more apparent later but I need them getting forward to provide crosses into the box as they are my best crossers on the ground. Also, because they are pushing forward the offer wide passing options. Defensively, both are quite adept. The one thing I am thinking of changing is Leighton Baines to a support role as supporting wing backs are set to through balls often and Baines is a reletively good passer. Coleman will always stay attacking.

So far the side is looking like this:

Tim Howard (GKd)

Seamus Coleman (WBa) - Ezequiel Munoz (CDc) - Shane Duffy (LDx) - Leighton Baines (WBa)

As alluded to, I am going with a five man midfield. As mentioned, I must have a DM due to my back four not being able to distribute the ball well. Here, most people would go for a defensive type of player. Not me. I have decided to lump my deep lying playmake support here. The CM's will help cover him, and they will need to - he is set to my team's main playmaker. This will mean he recieves the ball deep, hold it and move the ball onto a more advanced player or an advancing full back. He also has the ability to move the ball himself if the opposition is not allowing passing options for him. I have two players who can fill this role, Mark Noble and Vadis Odjidja. Both are of a similar ability with two differences - Noble is far more creative and Odjidja is much quicker. I haven't decided who I like better here yet. Odjidja is the current incumbant but Noble I feel will move in here due to his extra creativity.

I need someone to cover Noble when he has the ball. This duty has fallen to Fellaini. He can tackle, pass, has strength and likes to get forward. For this reason I have chosen to make him a deep lying playmaker defend. I thought about setting him as a ball winning midfielder but felt it was a waste of his passing abilities. The difference between the two roles are that a BWM takes long shots, doesn't give through balls and has far less creative freedom. The DLP also has a far greater passing range. This will allow Fellaini to be another creative outlet while also giving protection to my main creator in the DM position.

Beside Fellaini I have Ross Barkley as an attacking advanced playmaker. As he likes to get forward I needed the trough balls from Fellaini. He needs to be able to not only provide balls forward but also be a scoring option in the middle. Long shots for AP's are low by default so he is more likely to advance into the box before shooting. Effectively, when attacking he should advance to an AMC position in front of an advanced DM into the MC spot next to Fellaini. While attacking if he loses the ball there are two players befind him to cover. For this reason I am thinking of raising his RFD to often. I haven't done this but it is a thought.

The team is now looking like this:

Tim Howard (GKd)

Seamus Coleman (WBa) - Ezequiel Munoz (CDc) - Shane Duffy (LDx) - Leighton Baines (WBa)

Mark Noble (DLPs)

Maroune Fellaini (DLPd) - Ross Barkley (APa)

The next line gives me my wide players. On the right I have either of Kevin Mirallas or Steven Naismith. Both can dribble but crossing isn't good. For this reason I have chosen to give the AMR the role of winger support. In general, I don't like wingers as I thought they were players that lacked the ability to be a more creative to provide an attacking outlet. I am coming around to think that this isn't true. The reason I went for a support role is due to the lack of crossing ability in offered by either AMR and also the lack of height in the forward line. As the crossing is not good by getting in an early cross to the retreated striker, the AML or the AP (or hopefully all three) it allows the winger himself to get into the box and become a scoring option. I have realised that just because the position is called "Winger" it doesn't mean he only runs up and down the sidelines, he will come inside when he doesn't have the ball - especially if he has a PPM to tell him as much, which Mirallas has but Naismith doesn't. Both do move in channels, which I don't fully understand (I think it is a 'cuts outside' command) but I feel it would only apply when they are playing as strikers or AMC's.

With the right covered I need the left to be an attacking force. I cannot expect too many goals from Barkley or Mirallas so I have gone for an inside forward attacking at AML. Options I have here are Naismith, Thomas Drage and Magaye Gueye. Naysmith and Drage are right footed and Gueye is left footed. I started with Naismith here but have ultimately gone with Gueye. While Gueye is left footed I feel he is more likely to cross (again, not his best attribute at 9) but as he is in an attacking role he is more likely to put in a good left footed cross to a centred player than try and dribble through and get on his right foot to shoot, as a right footed player tends to do I find. Gueye also cuts inside, is a strong dribbler and is a competent finisher. He is actually a pretty good player to have here, but I do concede I would prefer him on the right (I haven't tried switchingthe tactic yet. I'm not sure of the outcome).

You can see my side is slowly coming to shape:

Tim Howard (GKd)

Seamus Coleman (WBa) - Ezequiel Munoz (CDc) - Shane Duffy (LDx) - Leighton Baines (WBa)

Mark Noble (DLPs)

Maroune Fellaini (DLPd) - Ross Barkley (APa)

Kevin Mirallis (Ws) - Magaye Gueye (IFa)

Finally, the striker. While Cleon went for a trequartista I had it pointed out to me that Nikica Jelavic does not fit this role. Because of this I have decided to put him in as a deep lying forward providing support to the AP, IF and winger. I have gone with support as I felt to put him in as attacking my make him get in the inside forwards way. Also, Jelavic can pass fairly well so through balls to the inside forward are not wasted by being too advanced. Being a supporting deep lying forward means he is not expected to score a lot of goals but is expected to provide the ball to get the goals. I also have Alberto Paloschi who is an acclomplished striker but does like to play far more forward. He is my option if I don't look like scoring. I can bring him on, make him an advanced forward and try and get balls to him to score. On the other hand, I can bring him on as the DLFs and let him try and create something from deep. He is more likely to get into the box and get a shot away than Jelavic. While both have the 'tries first time shots' PPM Jelavic has 'plays one-twos', which may lead him to try and find space before trying that first time shot. This delay in shooting gives time to close him down.

The final side running out on the park will look like this:

Tim Howard (GKd)

Seamus Coleman (WBa) - Ezequiel Munoz (CDc) - Shane Duffy (LDx) - Leighton Baines (WBa)

Mark Noble (DLPs)

Maroune Fellaini (DLPd) - Ross Barkley (APa)

Kevin Mirallis (Ws) - Magaye Gueye (IFa)

Nikica Jelavic (DLFs)

The team instructions are fairly simple I feel - a balanced, counterattacking style with short passing, more expressive creative freedom, default closing down, more aggressive tackling, zonal marking, drilling crosses and defalt roaming. The DM is set to be the playmaker and if I bring on the AF he is set as the targetman. I have noted I am 8th in creativity in the EPL so I am going to turn the creative freedom back down to default. Because I have attacking wing backs I chose not to have my centre backs advance too far so that is why closing down is default. I chose zonal marking as I feel it can be more effective with this type of game as it shouldn't pull players out of position. I am a fan of aggressive tackling but I think it is a personal preference. The playmaker being set I explained my reasoning earlier.

I am by no means a tactical genius. It took me a few goes to (I think) understand what Cleon is on about in this thread. As you can see I took a look at my players, made a decision on how I wanted to play and how best my players could work together. My feeling is how you want to play does come into it but not as much as the players at your disposal. I tried to make players fit into roles in previous posts but it just doesn't work. I needed to work out how to make the roles around players, not vice versa. I am sort of hoping what I have done has made sense. It isn't about the team as a whole when I built this, it was about the individual and how they best fitted into a side. I didn't really want a DM, I originally wanted three CM's with one dropping back and one coming forward but for that I needed a BPD, which I just didn't have. The other thing to note is I took over a side with pretty poor morale. I got an international break of 20 days so got two really easy friendlies in here to try and boost morale. The three games previous to this were played well but I felt the lack of the winning instinct let me down at times. I had Chelsea in two leagie games in a row, losing 2-1 and tieing 1-1. In both games I was ahead but let it go. I'm not too concerned as I feel the formation and tactic as a whole is solid enough to work well in the future, I just need to get my players to learn how to win.

A great post in how you tried to find out what the players could actually do and then create a system around them

You might find though that Barkley will get more assists and more goals playing as a CM attack rather than APa and be more involved in game.

[nick1408]

Cheers, I'll give that a run. I'm still strugglingto win but I think this is the way to go forward. For some reason I am struggling most against 4-4-2's, which isn't good in the EPL.

[Cleon]

Cheers, I'll give that a run. I'm still strugglingto win but I think this is the way to go forward. For some reason I am struggling most against 4-4-2's, which isn't good in the EPL.

How are you struggling against the 442? Naturally you should dominate the midfield due to out numbering the AI. I guess your midfield is either giving the ball away or been too static?

Have you looked back over any of the games?

[nick1408]

How are you struggling against the 442? Naturally you should dominate the midfield due to out numbering the AI. I guess your midfield is either giving the ball away or been too static?

Have you looked back over any of the games?

No, haven't looked back over them, I sort of put it down to my ****-poor morale. I only have 6 games left in the season so had written it off and am just using the last 6 games to bed in the tactic.

[Cleon]

No, haven't looked back over them, I sort of put it down to my ****-poor morale. I only have 6 games left in the season so had written it off and am just using the last 6 games to bed in the tactic.

Id use the 6 games to find out why you lost though. If not you'll be no better off next season when you face the same sort of sides. If you are struggling against certain formation it doesn't just suddenly stop happening unless you identify the problems and attempt to fix them.

[nick1408]

Id use the 6 games to find out why you lost though. If not you'll be no better off next season when you face the same sort of sides. If you are struggling against certain formation it doesn't just suddenly stop happening unless you identify the problems and attempt to fix them.

Yeah, fair call. My next game against Blackburn I dominated in midfield but couldn't break down the defence. I think the short passing may be limiting me a bit so might try changing it to default.

[Cleon]

Yeah, fair call. My next game against Blackburn I dominated in midfield but couldn't break down the defence. I think the short passing may be limiting me a bit so might try changing it to default.

You won't be playing short passing though will you? The slider just alters your current passing style to a slightly short/direct/longer version of what you use. So even though the slider may say short you might find it's actually direct you play just a shorter version.

I'm curious though, how do you think playing a different type of passing will help break down a defence?

[wez007]

Not really been following this thread as been a bit busy of late but jumped back on my Dag & Red save which you may have seen my thread in which I was using a 4222 BOX.

Well after figuring out Id gone as far as I could with that tactic (1x Prem, various 3rd & 4th finishes) I needed to implement something different to take me that one step further. So after reading this thread I took a few tips and gave them my only little spin, the results have been instant:

Quite basic team settings (you will see why with my shouts):

Formation:

Results:

The only blip vs PSG away but they have one of the best teams in the world. Good result vs Citeh, they normally hammer me.

My Shouts:

If I find I need to keep ball a bit more I change from Run at defence to Play through Defence.

Spine of team:

90% of this team is from kids ive developed. One gem Im thrilled with (and why i play from defence) is:

My young MC who I picked up for 2m at 16:

My Treq wonderkid who has lovely PPM's (drops deep):

All looking rosy, absolutely loving the game at the moment. Another great thread Cleon, really taking me that extra but further

[wez007]

My BPD:

He is left footed but not sure to have him on right to be a bit closer the the Support DR. The left side of my tactic bombs forward a little more...

[Cleon]

Not really been following this thread as been a bit busy of late but jumped back on my Dag & Red save which you may have seen my thread in which I was using a 4222 BOX.

Well after figuring out Id gone as far as I could with that tactic (1x Prem, various 3rd & 4th finishes) I needed to implement something different to take me that one step further. So after reading this thread I took a few tips and gave them my only little spin, the results have been instant:

Quite basic team settings (you will see why with my shouts):

Formation:

Results:

The only blip vs PSG away but they have one of the best teams in the world. Good result vs Citeh, they normally hammer me.

My Shouts:

If I find I need to keep ball a bit more I change from Run at defence to Play through Defence.

Spine of team:

90% of this team is from kids ive developed. One gem Im thrilled with (and why i play from defence) is:

My young MC who I picked up for 2m at 16:

My Treq wonderkid who has lovely PPM's (drops deep):

All looking rosy, absolutely loving the game at the moment. Another great thread Cleon, really taking me that extra but further

I use the same shape sometimes but reverse, so mine is right side focused. Have you made one same as this too? Or just the left one above?

[nick1408]

You won't be playing short passing though will you? The slider just alters your current passing style to a slightly short/direct/longer version of what you use. So even though the slider may say short you might find it's actually direct you play just a shorter version.

I'm curious though, how do you think playing a different type of passing will help break down a defence?

I meant the team passing and it didn't work. Another 4-4-2 against Wolves and another game dominated where I couldn't break down the defence. I thought the team short passing was limiting open players further up the field. The two DLP's have a far wider range of passing than the CM so I thought that the CM may not pick out the forward or the inside forward if they were open but further away than another player that may be open. Also, the team report mentioned the Wolves pitch was long and tended to favour direct passing so I thought raising from short to default may give me a slight advantage. As mentioned, this change gave me nothing.

I could change the DLF from support to attack but my concern is he will be getting in the way of the IF. On the other hand, the IF isn't really scoring so I may need the DLF forward in the box. I have Man City in the next game.

[wez007]

I use the same shape sometimes but reverse, so mine is right side focused. Have you made one same as this too? Or just the left one above?

No just the one... but now you mention it

Gives me a good option to change the focus, the players I have can make the change easy if need be

[Cleon]

I meant the team passing and it didn't work. Another 4-4-2 against Wolves and another game dominated where I couldn't break down the defence. I thought the team short passing was limiting open players further up the field. The two DLP's have a far wider range of passing than the CM so I thought that the CM may not pick out the forward or the inside forward if they were open but further away than another player that may be open. Also, the team report mentioned the Wolves pitch was long and tended to favour direct passing so I thought raising from short to default may give me a slight advantage. As mentioned, this change gave me nothing.

I could change the DLF from support to attack but my concern is he will be getting in the way of the IF. On the other hand, the IF isn't really scoring so I may need the DLF forward in the box. I have Man City in the next game.

I was on about the team slider.

The CM has morealess the same passing range as the DLP's unless you've manually changed them? Both should be set on mixed if you've not changed anything since your original post so would use their own decision making to pick out what kind of pass they attempt and in what situation.

You really need to watch the games back and see exactly why you didn't break down the defence though, its holding you back. In fact your very first reply in this thread was met with this response and you're still no further on in how you play after a few weeks . I'm not having a go I'm just pointing out if you keep ignoring the issues they never go away until you fix them. So rather than restarting or just trying to turn a blind eye actually look back and find out why you can't beat 442, why you struggle to break defences etc and the game will become much easier once you figure it out.

[Cleon]

No just the one... but now you mention it

Gives me a good option to change the focus, the players I have can make the change easy if need be

Aye its just gives you another dimension and different options by using the same players and shape

[nick1408]

I was on about the team slider.

The CM has morealess the same passing range as the DLP's unless you've manually changed them? Both should be set on mixed if you've not changed anything since your original post so would use their own decision making to pick out what kind of pass they attempt and in what situation.

You really need to watch the games back and see exactly why you didn't break down the defence though, its holding you back. In fact your very first reply in this thread was met with this response and you're still no further on in how you play after a few weeks . I'm not having a go I'm just pointing out if you keep ignoring the issues they never go away until you fix them. So rather than restarting or just trying to turn a blind eye actually look back and find out why you can't beat 442, why you struggle to break defences etc and the game will become much easier once you figure it out.

Yeah, I understand where you are coming from re watching the matches. I took a bit of time to pick up what you were saying originally anyway, but it does get frustrating repeating yourself and I apologise. I tend to play my matches with comprehensive highlights. The problem I have is I can watch the highlights at least and I don't really pick up on what is happening and why. My next match is against Fulham who play a 4-4-2 as well so I will watch the full match and when attacking change the camera to try and swhat is going on. I will report back and see if I pick anything up.

I wish I could watch the full matches on iPad so I could review later. Maybe one to put forward to SI is an iPad match viewer.

[b101]

I've not got time to look through all the images and stuff atm but I will do a bit later on. It seems like you've grasped the basics though and know what to look for

1) Interceptions show you what areas you are winning the ball back in or losing it if you are checking the oppositions. You might notice something when taking a look and begin to notice a particular pattern. Keep an eye out and make sure your players aren't attempting long range passes and gifting the ball to the opposition and so on. You'll get an idea after a while especially if you view the clips back.

2) If they have good teamwork, OTB and decisions it'll work fine. If not then they could end up in each others way and take away from each others game. But if they have high attributes for those they will compliment each other instead.

3) It depends what you want from the tactic in all honesty. It could be something you decide based on who you are playing and what formation though? Don't think you should have something set in stone though. If I'm playing a long term save then I'd mix the roles up every now and again depending on the situation. I like to be flexible in my approach and if I know I can take advantage of the opposition some how then I'll gladly change the role.

4) No mate

You've not wasted forum space, I always try and help those who put effort into learning and post in depth like you did. It was the aim of the thread so it always pleases me to see people put effort and thought into a post

Cheers for the detailed response Cleon. In that case I was reading the Interceptions tab right - there's not a lot wrong there. Will keep an eye on the AM (s) and DLF (s), although I may switch the DLF to the other side to see how he supports the attacking wing-back who is now my left full back. Can't believe I haven't tried the look for overlap option before, it's made a huge difference to my attacks.

As I say, I'll see how it works in the season proper and then might come back for some more feedback on how I'm interpreting the game

[Cleon]

Yeah, I understand where you are coming from re watching the matches. I took a bit of time to pick up what you were saying originally anyway, but it does get frustrating repeating yourself and I apologise. I tend to play my matches with comprehensive highlights. The problem I have is I can watch the highlights at least and I don't really pick up on what is happening and why. My next match is against Fulham who play a 4-4-2 as well so I will watch the full match and when attacking change the camera to try and swhat is going on. I will report back and see if I pick anything up.

I wish I could watch the full matches on iPad so I could review later. Maybe one to put forward to SI is an iPad match viewer.

No need to apologise

It's just I can only do so much for you or help so far. Highlights aren't a true reflection of what happens in a game because they are hand picked bits of the match. So you might be lead to think that the rest of the tactic is fine. To pick up on whats happening or happened you really need to watch it back in full and make notes. You can easily see if someone is giving the ball away, shooting from distance etc. What you should do is keep randomly pausing the game and looking at player positions to make sure you are covering space or using space well enough by getting players to support.

The reason I say watch a game you've played is because there is no pressure on you so you think more clearly because you are not attached to what might happen because its already took place.

Have a read of this; The Full 90 Minutes - What I Do

[Cleon]

Cheers for the detailed response Cleon. In that case I was reading the Interceptions tab right - there's not a lot wrong there. Will keep an eye on the AM (s) and DLF (s), although I may switch the DLF to the other side to see how he supports the attacking wing-back who is now my left full back. Can't believe I haven't tried the look for overlap option before, it's made a huge difference to my attacks.

As I say, I'll see how it works in the season proper and then might come back for some more feedback on how I'm interpreting the game

I'm happy to help if I can should you have more questions

[nick1408]

I was on about the team slider.

The CM has morealess the same passing range as the DLP's unless you've manually changed them? Both should be set on mixed if you've not changed anything since your original post so would use their own decision making to pick out what kind of pass they attempt and in what situation.

You really need to watch the games back and see exactly why you didn't break down the defence though, its holding you back. In fact your very first reply in this thread was met with this response and you're still no further on in how you play after a few weeks . I'm not having a go I'm just pointing out if you keep ignoring the issues they never go away until you fix them. So rather than restarting or just trying to turn a blind eye actually look back and find out why you can't beat 442, why you struggle to break defences etc and the game will become much easier once you figure it out.

Yeah, I understand where you are coming from re watching the matches. I took a bit of time to pick up what you were saying originally anyway, but it does get frustrating repeating yourself and I apologise. I tend to play my matches with comprehensive highlights. The problem I have is I can watch the highlights at least and I don't really pick up on what is happening and why. My next match is against Fulham who play a 4-4-2 as well so I will watch the full match and when attacking change the camera to try and swhat is going on. I will report back and see if I pick anything up.

I wish I could watch the full matches on iPad so I could review later. Maybe one to put forward to SI is an iPad match viewer.

Right, here is what I saw from the Fulham game. As noted, they lined up in a 4-4-2. I started out with the work ball into box shout. Jelavic had been changed to an attacking role as well.

Here I saw Gueye run to the box before taking a shot. I would have preferred a pass to Jelavic in the centre. The three Fulham players in the end closed down Gueye and forced the speculative shot. Nothing worth changing, it is a player issue, not a tactical one.

Goal! The ball is delivered to Baines advancing on the wing, who put the cross into the far post for an advancing Jelavic to head into goal.

Jelavic holds the ball and two defenders while Baines attacks the space, forcing a save from the keeper when he receives the ball.

This is my average position at half time. I wanted to note it and compare it to the last time I played a 4-4-2. The difference here is the striker is now an attacking DLF. Also, Fulham swapped Kadlec for Petric. Because they now had two slow strikers on I asked the team to press more and also yelled out to push higher up and hassle the opponent in the hope the strikers wouldn't have room to operate.

I would have preferred Jelavic to take an extra two steps into the circled space. Instead he takes the shot from where he is. Again, I feel this is a player issue, not a tactical one. Edit: Looking at this a second time I am not a fan of Gueye not being in the box already. He should be there I feel as a passing option for Jelavic. Not sure how to fix this so I will leave it.

Fulham goal. A cross is delivered to the circled player who hits the goal. My concern here is why no-one is on him. The three players closest to goal are (from right) Coleman, Munoz and Duffy. Duffy is set as a cover so that may explain why he is not closing down the player. The next two players in the box are Noble and Fellaini. Both are set to DLP's. I'm not sure about their positioning (if it is correct or not), but the concern is that Noble is the player that tries to close down the goalscorer, not Duffy. This to me looks like a tactical issue but I'm not sure if it is worth changing something or not. Also, after this goal Fulham change shape to the same as me and made two subs - Petric was off for a DM and the right back swapped.

Not a lot more happened in the game. I got a 94th minute freak goal to win 1-2 but to take 61% of the possession and not capatalise worries me. I'm not really sure why I couldn't break down the defence. I feel I probably should have gone with a shout to pass into space once the Fulham goal was scored. More game watching required for me I think.

[Earnie is God!]

I would say that your average position heat map doesn't show a lot of attacking in the final third. In the majority that I have seen, mine included, there is a lot more activity in and around the opposition penalty box. I know you play Jelavic as a DLF rather than a Treq because that suits him better but I'd probably switch him to attack rather than support.

It may also be an issue that you have your DM set as the playmaker. Players may be more likely to play the ball back to him rather than forward. If you have Jelavic as your playmaker (default setting in tactics) it would make sense that you would then naturally have more possession of the ball further up the pitch.

I am far from an expert though, just my observations.

[Cleon]

I would say that your average position heat map doesn't show a lot of attacking in the final third. In the majority that I have seen, mine included, there is a lot more activity in and around the opposition penalty box. I know you play Jelavic as a DLF rather than a Treq because that suits him better but I'd probably switch him to attack rather than support.

It may also be an issue that you have your DM set as the playmaker. Players may be more likely to play the ball back to him rather than forward. If you have Jelavic as your playmaker (default setting in tactics) it would make sense that you would then naturally have more possession of the ball further up the pitch.

I am far from an expert though, just my observations.

Plus he seems quite deep and there is no link between the MC's and the striker, just look at all the space between the midfield and the striker. Both his MC's are in his own half as is the DMC.

Here are a couple of my heatmaps and notice the difference in the support the striker has.

[loisvale]

Things going well at home. Using the tactic below with the right shouts and strategy and Anfield is a fortress! Just beaten Man U at home 3-0 to go top after 17 games!

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/loisvale/Liverpool_TacticsOverview-2_zpsb542d5fb.png

Away is much harder. If I expect to beat the opponent I use the above tactic but more defensively. If I expect a harder game and need to set up more in a more defensive way then I employ the tactic below which has two defensive midfielders and makes me harder to beat. The tactic is very like how Rafa used to set up and with a v good DLP can be strong in an attacking sense.Seem to spend a huge amount of time in the analysis tab and changing strategiey when away fro home!

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/loisvale/Liverpool_TacticsOverview_zps4b57a176.png

Are there any other tips for strategies away you can pass on and any thoughts on displayed tactics.

Cheers

Away from home needs a lot more work

[nick1408]

I would say that your average position heat map doesn't show a lot of attacking in the final third. In the majority that I have seen, mine included, there is a lot more activity in and around the opposition penalty box. I know you play Jelavic as a DLF rather than a Treq because that suits him better but I'd probably switch him to attack rather than support.

It may also be an issue that you have your DM set as the playmaker. Players may be more likely to play the ball back to him rather than forward. If you have Jelavic as your playmaker (default setting in tactics) it would make sense that you would then naturally have more possession of the ball further up the pitch.

I am far from an expert though, just my observations.

Plus he seems quite deep and there is no link between the MC's and the striker, just look at all the space between the midfield and the striker. Both his MC's are in his own half as is the DMC.

Here are a couple of my heatmaps and notice the difference in the support the striker has.

I see what you guys are on about. To be honest I hadn't noticed the MC's behind the half way line as while watching the match I felt enough of the ball was getting to the forwards. I went back and checked my previous four matches had found that they were all similar:

Blackburn played a 4-4-2, my striker is a DLF support.

Another 4-4-2 against Wolves. DLF is on support but passing in this game was on default.

Man City played a 4-2-3-1. Striker is on attacking now and passing is back to short.

This is the full time positioning of my team against Fulham. I did push up for 15 minutes after half time but really no change since the half time screen.

I see what you guys mean about no support for the forward. I will work on how to get more support for him in the next few games. My last games are against Liverpool, Tottenham, Stoke and Swansea. I'll tinker a bit to see how to get the team more compact.

[nick1408]

Still tinkering with the tactic but had a big 3-1 win (own goal for theirs) over Liverpool. The tactic is strong against 4-2-3-1's I feel. Liverpool did change to a 4-4-2 after half time due to Stuart Downing getting injured and Glen Johnson moving into midfield. I feel the problem I have is that I can spot what is working, but to spot what isn't working I am having trouble with.

To try and combat my midfield staying deep I felt if I was to close down more it would move them into the opposition area quicker. This wasn't the case as shown by these screenshots from half and full time:

This screenshot shows what the average positions shows - space in midfield. I feel I should have a look at Fellaini's instructions. He is set as a DLP defend so will not run from deep or run with the ball. I may need to raise one of these to sometimes (run from deep I think) to help fill space in the midfield.

One of the goals I was particulary happy with was this one. In the first screenshot you can see that Gueye has two players marking him on the wing including an out of position Capoue. This leaves Barkley open at the top of the box to recieve the ball and fire it in from deep. While not an ideal spot to be taking a shot from

Against Tottenham they really had me. To lose 1-0 was lucky I felt. They forced me back into my own half a lot.

At half time I asked my players to push up, hastle opponents and retain position. They did move their average position up the pitch a bit but conceded a goal. I also had Fellaini set to sometimes run with ball and forward runs. I am going to go with this again against Stoke.

There wasn't much to note against Stoke other than the average position is still deep. One thing I did like is Fellaini is now moving forward a bit more as shown below.

In the last match against Swansea I again noted Duffy's reluctance to close down, similar to the Fulham game. This is odd as he is set as a limited defender stopper so has the higher closing down of the two centre backs. Being a limited defender all he needs to do is go at the player and get rid of the ball.

I ended up 0-2 down when a goal was scored on the break and my CBc was injured on the half way line. I felt that the tactic was working well enough so all I did was tell the players to retain possession. I won't put up a heat map as I swapped a few players around on the ground and it is a bit all over the shop. I ended up coming back and winning 3-2 from 3 well crafted goals. The attacking DLF was drawing players to the right side of the box for both the LB and the AML to score. The season is over now so I will be trying to get some more players to fit the positions a bit better.

Cleon; on a sidenote, is it possible to make the widgets transparent in FM13 like in the thread you linked? Cheers.

[nick1408]

How are you struggling against the 442? Naturally you should dominate the midfield due to out numbering the AI. I guess your midfield is either giving the ball away or been too static?

Have you looked back over any of the games?

Again Cleon, I was slow on the pickup. This has just twigged - I outnumber a 4-4-2 in midfield so I should use the exploit middle shout to use this advantage. Took a few days but I got there.

[lam]

Again Cleon, I was slow on the pickup. This has just twigged - I outnumber a 4-4-2 in midfield so I should use the exploit middle shout to use this advantage. Took a few days but I got there.

You don't have to "exploit the middle" though that can certainly help, just be aware of what the shout actualy does. YOu can use your dominance to other effect. The 442 is highly reliant on their two MC's having a decent game, so you could mark them out of it and effectively cut off the wingers supply.

I'm not going to give you an answer her, but more of a clue and leave you to look for it. The 442 is rarely played narrow, so have a look at how they line up on the heatmaps and then watch for how effective your closing down is and also see how they are closing you down.

LAM

[Cleon]

Again Cleon, I was slow on the pickup. This has just twigged - I outnumber a 4-4-2 in midfield so I should use the exploit middle shout to use this advantage. Took a few days but I got there.

That's certainly one option but I think you'd be better asking yourself what the strengths of the 442 are and what it relies on to work.....

Wingers!!!!!

The wingers are key to the 442 and are what determines how successful its applied. Cut off the supply to the wide men and the strikers will have a quiet game because they'll not be getting the supply.

[RedBlueEagle]

Wow, what a read. I haven't even started playing FM2013 yet (a Christmas present) as I prefer to have everything in place to help me play. This thread has kept me from the game until today. Every version of Football Manager I have started by trying my own tactics using help from threads such as this. Every year I fail and end up using a downloaded tactic. I never checked stats and I didn't even know heatmaps existed until this thread. I have so much to work with now that I just have to take on the challenge again.

I'm going to start with my local team East Grinstead way down in the Sussex Div 1 (Level 9). Hopefully I can do the business with my own tactic and in the process actually learn the game.

Thanks and I'll update you.

[nick1408]

That's certainly one option but I think you'd be better asking yourself what the strengths of the 442 are and what it relies on to work.....

Wingers!!!!!

The wingers are key to the 442 and are what determines how successful its applied. Cut off the supply to the wide men and the strikers will have a quiet game because they'll not be getting the supply.

It's funny you say that. I was reading the football formations wiki page and picked up on this too (as you may have realised it takes me a few goes to pick up on things).

[Cleon]

Wow, what a read. I haven't even started playing FM2013 yet (a Christmas present) as I prefer to have everything in place to help me play. This thread has kept me from the game until today. Every version of Football Manager I have started by trying my own tactics using help from threads such as this. Every year I fail and end up using a downloaded tactic. I never checked stats and I didn't even know heatmaps existed until this thread. I have so much to work with now that I just have to take on the challenge again.

I'm going to start with my local team East Grinstead way down in the Sussex Div 1 (Level 9). Hopefully I can do the business with my own tactic and in the process actually learn the game.

Thanks and I'll update you.

Cheers

When I've had spare time I've been playing as Sheffield FC down in the Evo leagues using a simliar tactic to what's in the OP.

Keep me updated on your season

[Cleon]

It's funny you say that. I was reading the football formations wiki page and picked up on this too (as you may have realised it takes me a few goes to pick up on things).

It's hard to realise the obvious things at the time they are happening or when you need to. Hindsight is a great thing

[Vidji]

Right now I'm playing a 4-2-3-1 Deep. Got lots of creativity through the middle, aswell as on the wings with Anita (DLP sup), Cabaye (DMC sup), Thiago (APM atk). And both Nem and HBA as wingers (s). But most of my goals either comes from crosses to the other side of the pitch for my winger to score or dribbles with finishes. The main problem is for my strikers to get the ball (Ba and Cisse). I usually either play them as Poacher or Adv. forward. My intention of it was that with clevernes when the defence got ran at they would find space to revieve the ball. But it doesn't happen and they seldom got more then 3 shots total in a game.

How would you fix it?

[STFC will rule again]

Have you tried using a Deep Lying Forward on Support?

[iMan]

Yups, Roma been a prime example

I've actually been wanting to give Romas version a go. I found an old link on another site of a guys interpretation of how to set it up with the TC. Can you see any major flaws in this set up or anything that may improve it to function properly in 13?

GK: Doni Goalkeeper / Defend

DL: Max Tonetto Full Back / Automatic

DCl: Philippe Mexes Central Defender / Defend

DCr: Juan Central Defender / Defend

DR: Christian Panucci Full Back / Automatic

MCl: Simone Perrotta Central Midfielder / Attack

MCc: Daniele De Rossi Central Midfielder / Defend

MCr: David Pizzaro Central Midfielder / Attack

AML: Mirko Vucinic Inside Forward / Attack

AMR: Mancini Winger / Attack

STC: Francesco Totti Trequartista / Attack

Philosophy: Fluid

Strategy: Counter

Passing: Default

Creative Freedom: More Expressive

Closing Down: Default

Tackling: Default

Marking: Default

Crossing: Drill Crosses

Roaming: More Roaming

Defensive Line: Default

Width: Default - Narrow

Tempo: Slow

Time Wasting: Default

Counter: Yes

Playmaker: Francesco Totti (STC)

[kazm]

Move the MCc back to DMC (you can use him with support so he helps the midfield) and you have a 41221 like Cleon uses.

But I am a major fanboy for using a DMC.

[lucatonix]

I have been following this thread closely during the Xmas holidays and it's really helped me improve my reactive and proactive tactical side of the game (once you 'understand your tactic'). In my new save with Bari things have been going well, where my reactive tactical ability has been put to the test.

In my first season I was able to bring in a couple of golden oldies so protecting them from any physical engagement with opposition was key to extracting their best. I narrowly won Serie B.

In the second season, bringing in more physical players and Fausto Rossi and Odion Ighalo meant that my midfield no longer had to shy away from the odd physical battle. With strong, aggressive midfielders like Eyong Enoh and Simao they could engage in my midfield battles and lay the ball off to my more technical midfielder, usually Inigo Perez or at times my oldie from last season. This and my attacking partnership of Fausto Rossi and Odion Ighalo essentially formed the basis of my tactic (although I was still reactive to opposition, happy to change formation my tactics/style of play were fairly constant). This worked well with Rossi getting the second most assists and Ighalo the fourth most goals in the league.

Now the third season has got underway, and I have been given a transfer budget greater than 150k for the first time. I have duly spent it to bring in some needed quality while streamlining the squad. This has left me with a fairly strong squad and I feel that qualifying for Europe is possible (I finished 2nd last season in Serie A, mainly due to Inter being awful, Napoli and Milan coping poorly with sales of their stars on deadline day and Fiorentina and Udinese having a very poor middle and start respectively).

My squad is as follows:

Team Comparison: '>All Positions, '>Goalkeepers, '>Defense, '>Midfield, '>Attack

Bear in mind the GK and Defense are skewed by one really bad player in each.

After studying my team, I decided that a direct 451 was the way to go. I really needed to make space for my creative CMs Shelvey and Galloppa, whilst Javier Garcia will mop up behind. Now that I have decent full backs and a very good DM I felt that I could use them more aggressively. I also felt that I wanted a 2-pronged attack into the AMC hole (by the ST and MCa) to create space for my pacey wingers.

Having created the tactic, I was a little nervous about seeing how it would fair especially after in it's maiden voyage I lost 2-0 to Hadjuk. Looking back, it was more due to having a super unfit team and being not clinical whilst also not having a fit GK at the club.

The big test was a few friendlies in: Real Sociedad at home. We dominated with a largely second-string team until 20-30 minutes to go when my team was tiring and facing a fully fresh Sociedad (they made all subs; I made none).

Upon watching the game I noticed a few pitfalls, but lets start with what when right. Our shape was good and we held possession well maintaining about 55% which shows how we managed to control the midfield since it's not a possession orientated tactic:

Our passing was also very good, with very high pass percentages and a team average of 87%: