Is "Challenge Keeper" Cheating?

[fatboyjohnmulhern]

I think if i didnt know about these forums, i would be happily winning games afteer games, feeling that challenge keeper tactic i had chosen was something of a miracle masterpiece. BUTA, I know it is an exploit (aka cheat IMO) so i just will not exploit the exploit

[This field intentionally l]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How can you be so sure? You don't know the outcomes of the games, without the exploit, so how can you stand there and whole heartedly claim something that you couldn't possibly know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly!

I assert that the only reason that a tactic *ever* creates goals is due to (perhaps inadvertent) exploitation of a match engine flaw. How could you possibly say otherwise?

[phnompenhandy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by phnompenhandy:

I wouldn't have a single trophy if it wasn't for the ONE match engine advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you be so sure? You don't know the outcomes of the games, without the exploit, so how can you stand there and whole heartedly claim something that you couldn't possibly know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because without the 40+ goals scored by DCs from corners I wouldn't have scraped through various cup ties or won enough league games.

It's like saying how do you know ManU wouldn't have won the title if Fletcher had been playing in place of Ronaldo!

[sherica-]

Challenge GK is for countering AI 4-2-4

no cheat there for me.

[Guest]

I wouldn't call it cheating, just exploiting a problem in the match enging that really should've been picked up in testing.

Having said that, I don't use it because it makes the game really boring.

[NepentheZ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by phnompenhandy:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NepentheZ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by phnompenhandy:

I wouldn't have a single trophy if it wasn't for the ONE match engine advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you be so sure? You don't know the outcomes of the games, without the exploit, so how can you stand there and whole heartedly claim something that you couldn't possibly know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because without the 40+ goals scored by DCs from corners I wouldn't have scraped through various cup ties or won enough league games.

It's like saying how do you know ManU wouldn't have won the title if Fletcher had been playing in place of Ronaldo! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know that at all. Without Ronald McDonald, they would have set up the game plan differently, and still probably come out on top.

If you didn't have this Corner Exploit, you would adjust your tactics accordingly, and STILL possibly score from corners, (not to the extreme in which you do).

You can never be so sure to tell me ... "If I didn't do this, I wouldn't win"

Its like when a team hits the post in football, then 10 minutes later they go and score. People say "If that one that hit the post went in, we'd be 2-0 now". No you wouldn't. If the one that hit the post went in, you would never have been in the position to score the "second" - and the game could well be 1-1, 5-0 or 1-9.

Unless 100% of your goals from corners were in situations where the game is tied and the goal is scored practically on the final whistle, you can not tell me this is game defining for you.

[nojabold]

I feel a little confused by this thread. Why are people saying that it is a flaw in the match engine? 'Challenge the goalkeeper' is an instruction designed to give you the advantage and therfore enable you to score. Same as in real life.

If you had a team of tall players and played long balls, crossed the ball in for headers etc would that be considered cheating or exposing a flaw in the match engine?

And in real life, it seems to me that players like John Terry, Sol Campbell, Joleon lescott score quite a lot of goals from corners, especially in comparison to their team mates playing at full back (Glen Johnson, Tony Hibbert etc)

How is this cheating, or as some people have said a bug or flaw? It's just good tactics to use your best header of the ball at corners and freekicks.

[fatboyjohnmulhern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I feel a little confused by this thread. Why are people saying that it is a flaw in the match engine? 'Challenge the goalkeeper' is an instruction designed to give you the advantage and therfore enable you to score. Same as in real life.

If you had a team of tall players and played long balls, crossed the ball in for headers etc would that be considered cheating or exposing a flaw in the match engine?

And in real life, it seems to me that players like John Terry, Sol Campbell, Joleon lescott score quite a lot of goals from corners, especially in comparison to their team mates playing at full back (Glen Johnson, Tony Hibbert etc)

How is this cheating, or as some people have said a bug or flaw? It's just good tactics to use your best header of the ball at corners and freekicks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

because sol campbell, john terry and co dont score 30+ goals a season lol

[homerjnick]

Is it just me but my defenders score a lot of goals from corners AND I concede a lot from corners but I never ever set my tactics to challenge the keeper.

[turn it upto 11]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nojabold:

I feel a little confused by this thread. Why are people saying that it is a flaw in the match engine? 'Challenge the goalkeeper' is an instruction designed to give you the advantage and therfore enable you to score. Same as in real life.

If you had a team of tall players and played long balls, crossed the ball in for headers etc would that be considered cheating or exposing a flaw in the match engine?

And in real life, it seems to me that players like John Terry, Sol Campbell, Joleon lescott score quite a lot of goals from corners, especially in comparison to their team mates playing at full back (Glen Johnson, Tony Hibbert etc)

How is this cheating, or as some people have said a bug or flaw? It's just good tactics to use your best header of the ball at corners and freekicks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it not that people shouldnt challenge the keeper they should. the point that is being made is that when the code was edited(i think to reduce how many fouls hapen in corners, i dont think i ever scored a goal from a corner that wasnt disallowed) anyway when the code was edited somethnig was changed which means the AI didnt respond properly to maring ect. and by setting corners up a certain way you can score a lot of goals becuase the player is just left stood in front of the keeper with noone to callenge him. and people dont see anything wrong wit this. tbh i think it needed to e looked at when SI reissued the patch to fix the defoe issue.

[Guest arrogantio]

NepentheZ, did you ever use "Diablo"?

There's a difference between actively making decisions to do things in which you know you will outperform the AI (e.g buying players with well distributed stats rather than players of the highest perceived ability, ensuring your target man is playing up against the weaker of the opponent's centre backs etc.) and checking a couple of boxes for guaranteed results.

It's the difference between overachieving through exploiting the benefits of having actual intelligence rather than artificial intelligence , and exploiting a crippling weakness in the match engine without actually having to think about it (the AI could easily be programmed to exploit the same weakness with the same regularity). It's doing to tactics making what organising friendlies for your reserves against top opposition every week does for budgeting - making something which an astute human already has an "unrealistic" edge in into something easy.

[phnompenhandy]

^WHS. Very eloquently explained

[Macyst]

The instruction is there for you to use; if you never get to/ care to read about this coding problem, then you would not know about it.

30+ goals a season for a centerback? No problem, you can rotate all 4 of your center back to take 8 each

Anyway, I personally don't use this since I'm already happy with the number fo goal I got from attack near post and a bit from attack far post. The average is 20 goals a season (50 matches or so) counting all of the DC's. Is that a cheating too?

I see no point why would some people bring up/ generate controversy just to limit other people from playing their games.

[IMT]

Take a look at Rochdales 1st goal vs Stockport today at Wembley and tell me if it's cheating

[dafuge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IMT:

Take a look at Rochdales 1st goal vs Stockport today at Wembley and tell me if it's cheating </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm guessing that he hasn't scored 30 goals in a season like that though.

[NepentheZ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IMT:

Take a look at Rochdales 1st goal vs Stockport today at Wembley and tell me if it's cheating </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm guessing that he hasn't scored 30 goals in a season like that though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. But the principle remains the same. I guess it just needs to be 'toned down' - so that around 7-13 goals per season are scored this way. (not that thats any more relative to real life than anything else, just seems more realistic)

[IMT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IMT:

Take a look at Rochdales 1st goal vs Stockport today at Wembley and tell me if it's cheating </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm guessing that he hasn't scored 30 goals in a season like that though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but it does happen, so therefore cannot be a cheat, put it this way, I have used these tactics on corners for as long as I can remember, why? Because it just makes plain sense to do so, and what any good professional side will do, so why because SI have cocked it up should I be penalised by not using it?

[llama3]

i have used the attack near post instead, which is not exposing the match engine, yet still provides me a reliable source of goals. when ur strikers are starting to underachieve like mine though then you worry cos ur defender is still a top scorer!

[AMcGovern10]

YES

Its cheating because you know its taking advantage of a bug in the game. Just like with any killer tactic. Any success you achieve is a hollow victory because Football Manager is a simulation of the game and so anything that doesn't make sense in real life is obviously a flaw.

Alternatively SI could bring out an 8.03 and we would not be having this debate....

..... we'd be debating what other new flaws in the match engine we consider cheating.

[sthptngomad76]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its cheating because you know its taking advantage of a bug in the game. Just like with any killer tactic. Any success you achieve is a hollow victory </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately I feel much the same way...it really has affected my enjoyment, to the point where i barely play it. And as much as Id wish SOMEBODY would release something that 'fixed' the problem, I cant see it happening.

[Kenco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AMcGovern10:

YES

Its cheating because you know its taking advantage of a bug in the game. Just like with any killer tactic. Any success you achieve is a hollow victory because Football Manager is a simulation of the game and so anything that doesn't make sense in real life is obviously a flaw.

Alternatively SI could bring out an 8.03 and we would not be having this debate....

..... we'd be debating what other new flaws in the match engine we consider cheating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't even know the specifics of this corner cheat, but I have a tactic which I have tweaked which gets my top CB Barzagli 20 goals a season, he has 20 for jumping and heading. Am I cheating because I bought a player with good stats and aim for him every time? I don't think so.

If I stumble across tactics that work after many hours of trial and error I don't suddenly stop to think I may be exploiting a bug in the game, I'd rather revel in my own success at finally winning something.

This is a game, and in most games I've played in my life I have found that to win you have to find the enemy's weakness and exploit it. If you play tennis and your opponent has a weak backhand, surely you would stick as many on his backhand as you can, wouldn't you?

The "Cheats" are the people who come onto these forums and downloads or copy other people's winning formulae.

[Aldokemp(H)]

the tactic is a bit dont know how to put it emm... its not cheating but i think it works a bit too much maybe ? like yes you can challenge keeper in a real game but you dont see centre backs scoring all the time if they did

plus it doesnt work with every team it only works with good teams and using the right players as im hull it doesnt work with me so i cant see how its a cheat because then it would work for me no matter what players i had ? just like addin manager and goin the opposition to beat them 26 - 0 and whatever tht will work with eny team were as this doesnt i would just say the tactics are spot on but maybe a bit out of hand

[exacerbating]

I play up front every week and I get told to challenge keepers at corners (I'm quite good in the air). Does that mean I'm cheating?

[AMcGovern10]

The people who are trying to defend the cheating are people who use the tactic.

Barzagli is a class player and it is right to look for him at corners, but it shouldn't guarentee you 40 goals a season. The harsh thing is that if you stumbled across the corner thing after hours upon end of tweaking tactics just like I did then its still cheating as now you know its a bug. I'd have rather have been oblivious to it and be able to say I was amazing at the game!!!

As for being told to challenge keepers at corners in real life. It is a proper tactic, especially if your quite good in the air, thats why its in fm. But you aren't gonna score 40 goals a season like that, or if you do then you play in a crap league with midget goalkeepers.