Improving players' aggression and bravery

[Ein]

I'm trying to imprint a DNA onto my squad which features aggression and bravery among other attributes. I'm using training sessions like transition - press, defending (both target aggression), training roles like BWM and PF (which target aggression and bravery) and additional focus of aerial (which targets bravery). But I haven't noticed any improvements over multiple years. Can anyone confirm that these attributes can be improved?

[Dotsworthy]

Bravery can go up but I've always found it slow to improve.

Aggression doesn't improve. One of the training sessions states that it improves aggression, but this is incorrect.

 

[Ein]

26 minutes ago, Dotsworthy said:

Aggression doesn't improve. One of the training sessions states that it improves aggression, but this is incorrect.

Can someone from SI confirm this? Has this ever been reported as a bug?

[phnompenhandy]

29 minutes ago, Dotsworthy said:

Bravery can go up but I've always found it slow to improve.

Aggression doesn't improve. One of the training sessions states that it improves aggression, but this is incorrect.

 

I believe this to be true. They are pretty much natural traits.

If you want them for DNA the good news is - in my experience at least - my academy intake kids on average have ridiculously high aggression and often bravery while very low in the attributes I really want (like speed)!

[Ein]

Yes, but this means the UI is showing incorrect information. Are there any other examples of such incorrect info so that I can raise them as a bug?

[Dotsworthy]

28 minutes ago, Ein said:

Can someone from SI confirm this? Has this ever been reported as a bug?

A couple of YouTubers (such as EBFM) have done tests on training for FM23 which show aggression doesn't improve. Im sure someone here or at FM arena did their own tests but can't remember where that would be.

Dont't know if any verifiable tests have been done for 24 yet.

24 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I believe this to be true. They are pretty much natural traits.

I suspect for bravery that it might be that aerial is the only way and as such gets only a small amount of attention regardless.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Dotsworthy

[Meanonsunday]

A few years ago I remember a comment from SI that said that disciplining a player could affect aggression.  But I don’t know if that was ever true.  In the discussion about removal of fining for performance in FM24 SI denied that this ever increased determination (😂😂 people were using this to cheese determination forever and especially since tutoring was replaced).  But then in FM23 they said they reduced the effect of fining on determination.  So I think that even people at SI don’t know how it actually works.  
 

Personally I don’t want those 19-20 aggression players because they turn into maniacs unless their dirtiness is very low.

[mikcheck]

If bravery and/or aggression are part of your DNA, then your players should already have them high, because they wont increase much, if anything

[Ein]

The issue is with the training UI which, if what you say is the case, is displaying incorrect information. The mentioned training routines/roles/focuses all purportedly target them. Anyway, I raised a bug report about it.

[Ein]

BTW I disagree that these attributes should be completely fixed. Of course it shouldn't be possible to turn Özil into a BWM but, for example, this kind of evolution should IMO be possible within the game universe.

 

 

 

 

[Rashidi]

 

This is just one of the sims I ran the base year is indicated as base, the rest are just Y1-Y3 and the second is a repeat of the sim with another custom schedule. Thats the whole CA/PA of a squad, bravery definitely improves. Not all attributes grow at the same rate though, some grow by less than a percent over 3 years like Bravery, and others grow by as much as 9%.  I have never seen aggression go down, but bravery can take short spikes downwards after an injury. 

[phnompenhandy]

27 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

 

This is just one of the sims I ran the base year is indicated as base, the rest are just Y1-Y3 and the second is a repeat of the sim with another custom schedule. Thats the whole CA/PA of a squad, bravery definitely improves. Not all attributes grow at the same rate though, some grow by less than a percent over 3 years like Bravery, and others grow by as much as 9%.  I have never seen aggression go down, but bravery can take short spikes downwards after an injury. 

That's a fascinating table, that is. Other attributes that hardly move the dial are important in my squad, such as Teamwork, Work Rate, Acceleration and Pace.  Would it be fair to say individual training on these attributes is not really worth the time invested?

[Rashidi]

@phnompenhandyNot all attributes grow at the same rate. I did a sim with default schedules and around 20 sims with custom schedules across 5 years each. 
 

What I found - u can definitely get teamwork to grow by more, your schedules need to incorporate those sessions that have “teamwork”. I think these are mostly the technical ones and the defensive shadowplay one is also good as well. The danger in doing unbalanced schedules is - uneven growth. So you should look to complement general training with additional focus, and I never used aerial to improve bravery.

It’s best to remember that SI had told those  running simulations what kind of % change in CA per year would be normal. So while some might think the percentage change is low, it’s still within acceptable ranges for SI.

[phnompenhandy]

5 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

@phnompenhandyNot all attributes grow at the same rate. I did a sim with default schedules and around 20 sims with custom schedules across 5 years each. 
 

What I found - u can definitely get teamwork to grow by more, your schedules need to incorporate those sessions that have “teamwork”. I think these are mostly the technical ones and the defensive shadowplay one is also good as well. The danger in doing unbalanced schedules is - uneven growth. So you should look to complement general training with additional focus, and I never used aerial to improve bravery.

It’s best to remember that SI had told those  running simulations what kind of % change in CA per year would be normal. So while some might think the percentage change is low, it’s still within acceptable ranges for SI.

Right. Specifically on acceleration and pace though, maybe it's my poor part-time facilities and coaching, but after two years of constant quickness training for my whole squad (in addition to a 'balanced' general whole-team schedule), for the majority of players there was zero improvement, and for others minimal improvement. I'm not complaining about it, but I would appreciate clarification as to whether quickness training has benefits, or whether it would be better to focus on attributes that will increase more effectively.

[Freakiie]

13 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

That's a fascinating table, that is. Other attributes that hardly move the dial are important in my squad, such as Teamwork, Work Rate, Acceleration and Pace.  Would it be fair to say individual training on these attributes is not really worth the time invested?

I still train quite a few of my players in Quickness and it still results in some development. With not everyone being absolute pace monsters any more with the way players develop in FM24 even just a couple points honestly isn't too bad. Just gotta keep an eye out as you can hard cap pace and acceleration nowadays, something that usually only happened with Jumping Reach.

[Rashidi]

4 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Right. Specifically on acceleration and pace though, maybe it's my poor part-time facilities and coaching, but after two years of constant quickness training for my whole squad (in addition to a 'balanced' general whole-team schedule), for the majority of players there was zero improvement, and for others minimal improvement. I'm not complaining about it, but I would appreciate clarification as to whether quickness training has benefits, or whether it would be better to focus on attributes that will increase more effectively.

Goes without saying that physical and mental attributes have always been valued, if you are still in a part time structure.  I would just focus on general training with a heavier fitness component added. Perhaps Outfield/Match practice + additional focus quickness. Not sure how many sessions you have per week, but they are limited aren't they? Development in lower leagues is almost irrelevant at least it is for me.  Adding quickness as additional focus helps, but just adding quickness as another session would be pointless.

[phnompenhandy]

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Goes without saying that physical and mental attributes have always been valued, if you are still in a part time structure.  I would just focus on general training with a heavier fitness component added. Perhaps Outfield/Match practice + additional focus quickness. Not sure how many sessions you have per week, but they are limited aren't they? Development in lower leagues is almost irrelevant at least it is for me.  Adding quickness as additional focus helps, but just adding quickness as another session would be pointless.

I only have four training sessions per week. My default week is two general physical sessions, one defend or attack session and one match practice. I know it hardly makes much difference; only first team competitive matches is significant in player development, but I like to (deludedly) feel extra individual focus makes some difference.

[Rashidi]

3 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I only have four training sessions per week. My default week is two general physical sessions, one defend or attack session and one match practice. I know it hardly makes much difference; only first team competitive matches is significant in player development, but I like to (deludedly) feel extra individual focus makes some difference.

For as long as you have the players :-)

[phnompenhandy]

13 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

For as long as you have the players :-)

Did you just hex me? As you posted that, my two best players were poached on transfer deadline day 

[mikcheck]

3 horas atrás, Rashidi disse:

but bravery can take short spikes downwards after an injury. 

That normally happens in long term injuries, right? And does it normally goes back to the previous number?

[Ein]

13 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

That normally happens in long term injuries, right? And does it normally goes back to the previous number?

Yes, I normally see it go back soon after recovery.

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

 

This is just one of the sims I ran the base year is indicated as base, the rest are just Y1-Y3 and the second is a repeat of the sim with another custom schedule. Thats the whole CA/PA of a squad, bravery definitely improves. Not all attributes grow at the same rate though, some grow by less than a percent over 3 years like Bravery, and others grow by as much as 9%.  I have never seen aggression go down, but bravery can take short spikes downwards after an injury. 

So from the table it seems that aggression is fixed and other attributes like bravery, teamwork, work rate change very slowly.  Can attributes actually decline before the age of 30+ or do they just increment till a peak is reached? E.g. is it possible to have someone like Hector Bellerin who in previous FM iterations had something like 19/20 pace/acceleration decline while still in his 20s?

 

 

[Rashidi]

It all depends on the amount of difference between CA and PA. If a player has peaked. attributes can get shifted and/or a player can lose acceleration and pace through injury. 

[wazzaflow10]

29 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

It all depends on the amount of difference between CA and PA. If a player has peaked. attributes can get shifted and/or a player can lose acceleration and pace through injury. 

Assuming a player is at or close to their PA...

Is there a natural progression for players where physical attributes peak early 18-24 and mental attributes peak 25+ until CA starts declining due to age? And during that 25+ period we'll see some reassignment specifically from physical attributes to mental? The rate at which this happens depends the usual progression factors (facilities, experience etc) but emphasized by their natural fitness (higher values meaning they retain physical stats longer obviously). Or does the game grab little bits of CA from all attributes to add a point to an attribute that experiences an increase when needed? 

I guess what I'd expect is that if we took Messi at age 21 and compared him to age 28 year, his age 28 year would have more CA but he might by fractionally slower due to natural human progression plus wear and tear but make up for it by having much, much better mental stats. 

 

[vcpinheiro14]

10 horas atrás, Freakiie disse:

I still train quite a few of my players in Quickness and it still results in some development. With not everyone being absolute pace monsters any more with the way players develop in FM24 even just a couple points honestly isn't too bad. Just gotta keep an eye out as you can hard cap pace and acceleration nowadays, something that usually only happened with Jumping Reach.

Do you have more informations about these hard caps? I suspect they're tied to Height/Weight

[vcpinheiro14]

Em 13/12/2023 em 13:08, Ein disse:

I'm trying to imprint a DNA onto my squad which features aggression and bravery among other attributes. I'm using training sessions like transition - press, defending (both target aggression), training roles like BWM and PF (which target aggression and bravery) and additional focus of aerial (which targets bravery). But I haven't noticed any improvements over multiple years. Can anyone confirm that these attributes can be improved?

Have you tried testing interactions to change Aggression (and maybe other attributes?) I didn't do it because it requires a decent methodology and manual labor but those interactions that you can praise or criticize isolated aspects of a player's game could have additional effects besides Morale and Relationship management.

On another thread I raised a question that expectedly wasn't answered about short-term training benefits being a thing because of precedence (upcoming match sessions) and some discrepancies between the UI and the results of training sessions (like aggression). This was an idea I had after reflecting on the "Big Congestion" SI schedule, which can be a "light" workload sessions but doesn't make much sense if there aren't shot-term benefits (weekly?).

[Freakiie]

8 minutes ago, vcpinheiro14 said:

Do you have more informations about these hard caps? I suspect they're tied to Height/Weight

No clue, they just exist. If you look at the training report of a player it will simply tell you that X training can't increase Y stat any further. While stuff like jumping is somewhat tied to height, it gets really wonky with newgens with a lot of players underperforming compared to SIs internal tables and you see a lot of them capping out their jumping reach at levels that technically are below what even a poor jumper should be at.

[Dotsworthy]

1 hour ago, Freakiie said:

No clue, they just exist. If you look at the training report of a player it will simply tell you that X training can't increase Y stat any further. While stuff like jumping is somewhat tied to height, it gets really wonky with newgens with a lot of players underperforming compared to SIs internal tables and you see a lot of them capping out their jumping reach at levels that technically are below what even a poor jumper should be at.

I've noticed this also. It definitely seems like height is not working properly for newgens.

[Kickballz]

 I have ignored the warning about capping out jumping, and training has increased jumping reach despite the warning, which seemed stupidly low for a 6 foot plus player.

No idea what happens with height. I remember it used to seemed bugged, but I haven't paid much attention to that recently.

[vcpinheiro14]

23 minutos atrás, Kickballz disse:

 I have ignored the warning about capping out jumping, and training has increased jumping reach despite the warning, which seemed stupidly low for a 6 foot plus player.

No idea what happens with height. I remember it used to seemed bugged, but I haven't paid much attention to that recently.

I wonder if this message is not related to a hard cap but to the difficulty to raise an attribute due to age or fulfilled PA, in that case it would be a "soft cap". 

[Kickballz]

Well in my case it was a six foot two defender with high potential.

He was on 14 jumping reach at 20 years old and did one of those 'all stats decrease at once annoyances' taking him down to 13 jumping. I started training in strength and promptly got the message that his jumping is unlikely to increase. I have ignored that and his jumping has improved along with all his other stats. He is now 23, and comfortably 15 jumping, perhaps even nudging close to 16.

[sdx15]

Aerial additional focus improves bravery. More than heading in my experience.

[MontyOnTheRun]

On 14/12/2023 at 07:53, Meanonsunday said:

A few years ago I remember a comment from SI that said that disciplining a player could affect aggression.  But I don’t know if that was ever true.  In the discussion about removal of fining for performance in FM24 SI denied that this ever increased determination (😂😂 people were using this to cheese determination forever and especially since tutoring was replaced).  But then in FM23 they said they reduced the effect of fining on determination.  So I think that even people at SI don’t know how it actually works.  
 

Personally I don’t want those 19-20 aggression players because they turn into maniacs unless their dirtiness is very low.

I can confirm this. Fining players for violent behaviour decreased their aggression trait, fining for poor performance increased their workrate. Dependant on whether the player accepted his fine.

 

Derermination can go up/down dependant on the overall determination in the squad, but the most I`v seen is 1 value change. Usually it happens to very young players who comes into a squad with players that are nowhere near as good in terms of determination. Niklas Wassberg always had this happen to him in my games - he was around the Brann 1st team squad at age 17/18 and there was nothing you could do to stop his determination going down a notch.

 

 

 

[phd_angel]

@Ein - I can improve any mental attribute via Mentorship. Basically, create a group where the majority of players have higher aggression (or bravery) than the player you want to increase, ideally he must be younger and less influential than the others.

[Ein]

51 minutes ago, phd_angel said:

@Ein - I can improve any mental attribute via Mentorship. Basically, create a group where the majority of players have higher aggression (or bravery) than the player you want to increase, ideally he must be younger and less influential than the others.

I don't think aggression and bravery can be improved by mentoring. Mentoring can improve determination and the hidden mental attributes (professionalism, ambition, etc).

Edited December 18, 2023 by Ein

[Ein]

I reported this issue here:

Unfortunately there has been no response yet.

At this point, I'm not sure to what extent the information displayed in the training UI is correct. I've been using routines like Transition - Press a lot based on what the UI displays but I'm seeing experienced players opt for general routines like Attacking and Defending.

[Tom 99]

On 13/12/2023 at 18:17, Dotsworthy said:

Dont't know if any verifiable tests have been done for 24 yet.

I have tested it for FM 24. There is absolutley no increase in aggression but a slow increase in bravery. No difference to FM 23.

Edited January 29 by Tom 99