gegenpress - overpowered

[Rodrigogc]

23 minutos atrás, Ein disse:

I fail to see why there would be a correlation between increased sales and game difficulty. After all, players often can't gauge a game's difficulty until they've purchased and played it.

There are likely other factors driving higher sales, such as population growth, increased remote work, and greater internet access.

I assume people take the last version as a parameter. Since FM19, I suppose, FM hasn't changed much in terms of difficulty. I haven't bought Dark Souls because I saw people saying it is hard. As much as I like hard games, I don't have time to play them the way I did 10 years ago. 

These factors you mentioned may help, but I think FM reviews, FM beta and good SI marketing also are a driving force for higher sales. 

[Ein]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

All that is very likely to show that tactics nerds like us, people who play very long-term saves, people who use difficulty mods and people who relish tough LLM challenges are a very small proportion of the playerbase and - here’s the thing - already have all the tools they need to make the game as challenging as they want,

What tools? In FM22, I won every single competition for 2 years with this formation and squad, before losing interest. The formation/instructions seem quite normal to me and were chosen based on the players available at the club. I never had any occasion to use the data hub, OIs, change formation/tactics to counter different oppositions, utilise the transfer market, or come up with something tactically extraordinary to achieve this feat.

Correction: I also had 'slightly narrower' ticked.

Edited April 18 by Ein

[Ein]

1 hour ago, Rodrigogc said:

I assume people take the last version as a parameter. Since FM19, I suppose, FM hasn't changed much in terms of difficulty. I haven't bought Dark Souls because I saw people saying it is hard. As much as I like hard games, I don't have time to play them the way I did 10 years ago. 

These factors you mentioned may help, but I think FM reviews, FM beta and good SI marketing also are a driving force for higher sales. 

I don't know. If they truly wanted to cater to that kind of fanbase, why did they drop FM Touch? I don't have as much time to play as I used to as well. The point isn't for more time-consuming gameplay (a lot of time-consuming noise/clickfest such as media interactions could be scrapped for all I care), but for harder gameplay. There's a difference. Winning after 5 years of squad-building and steady progression is more fun than winning immediately.

[NineCloudNine]

26 minutes ago, Ein said:

What tools? In FM22, I won every single competition for 2 years with this formation and squad, before losing interest. The formation/instructions seem quite normal to me and were chosen based on the players available at the club. I never had any occasion to use the data hub, OIs, change formation/tactics to counter different oppositions, utilise the transfer market, or come up with something tactically extraordinary to achieve this feat.

Correction: I also had 'slightly narrower' ticked.

You can set your own transfer limitations, use skins without attributes, not use player search, not do transfer deals outside the windows, use only vanilla roles, choose an unusual tactic, use difficulty/ realism/ injury mods, not pick a top-tier club, use the editor to create a challenge scenario…

Roma is a fun club for a youth team challenge. Use the editor to give Cristian Totti 190 PA, put him at AMC and recreate the dynasty!

Whereas a new player, faced with a game as difficult as the one you want, has nowhere to turn when it all falls apart for them.

Edited April 18 by NineCloudNine

[Mitja]

Not sure how anyone can defend the game being so easy. One thing is to overachieve but winning trophies should be a little harder. I really like the 24 me but can't find motivation to play the game in such a state.

[El Payaso]

59 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Not sure how anyone can defend the game being so easy. One thing is to overachieve but winning trophies should be a little harder. I really like the 24 me but can't find motivation to play the game in such a state.

But has the game ever been more difficult to be honest?

Back in the days I used to do the LLM saves where you would take a team from the lowest league to the Premier league and it always went the same way: season per promotion until Championship where you were often had to spend a second season before getting promoted. And this was in 2014-17 so basically ten years ago. 

What I don't understand at all is the need of winning virtual trophies. What do you really get by winning the Champions League or Premier League in a video game? Why is it so bloody important? 

[jmlima]

27 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

But has the game ever been more difficult to be honest?

 

Not sure if it was much more difficult but, think the argument is that there should have been some significant progress re AI management, transfer realism, scouting realism, etc. That, by itself would make the game harder. If the difficulty stays the same and the human player is better, then the game will feel ever easier.

[El Payaso]

9 minutes ago, jmlima said:

Not sure if it was much more difficult but, think the argument is that there should have been some significant progress re AI management, transfer realism, scouting realism, etc. That, by itself would make the game harder. If the difficulty stays the same and the human player is better, then the game will feel ever easier.

Yeah. And I think that SI could have easily implemented all these already years ago but haven't. This is only just my own thinking and not facts but I think the fear of upsetting the childish/casual players has always been a drag for the game. I'm not using the childish term as an insult but if you have to win in a game to be able to play it, then that is not a grown adult's behavior in my opinion. 

[jmlima]

1 minute ago, El Payaso said:

...then that is not a grown adult's behavior in my opinion. 

Just imagine a realistic management game in which you are at the whims of events totally out of your control, implementing a new tactical system takes ages and sometimes fails entirely, scouting is a bit of a crystal ball at lower levels, and transfers do not allow you to stockpile those 'wonderkids' as soon as the game starts... not popular probably.

[Mitja]

46 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

But has the game ever been more difficult to be honest?

What I don't understand at all is the need of winning virtual trophies. What do you really get by winning the Champions League or Premier League in a video game? Why is it so bloody important? 

Fm21 was quite more challenging at least short term - tactics wise. First season was easy but after that..

[Mitja]

4 minutes ago, jmlima said:

Just imagine a realistic management game in which you are at the whims of events totally out of your control, implementing a new tactical system takes ages and sometimes fails entirely, scouting is a bit of a crystal ball at lower levels, and transfers do not allow you to stockpile those 'wonderkids' as soon as the game starts... not popular probably.

Oh come on. Winning leagues trophies promotions should be an achievement which drives you on not something that puts you off playing the game.

[jmlima]

12 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Oh come on. Winning leagues trophies promotions should be an achievement which drives you on not something that puts you off playing the game.

Trust me. People prefer winning to grinding.

[Rodrigogc]

Basically this whole issue about the game being easy would be solved if FM had difficulty levels. That won't happen, so...

I play chess, and there are engines in chess that are absolutely unbeatable, but you can play the weakest ones and gradually increase the level. Kids these days practice with engines and it gives them a lot of challenges.

I'm an old FM player, so I never play to win trophies, and I suppose that most old players don't care about them as well. Unfortunately it all comes down to business, and if people pay for a game they want the gratification, which means winning. If the game is hard, people won't buy because grinding and not winning for them would be a waste of money. I don't think like that, but that is how it goes. 

[Mitja]

Yeah McDonald'sation everywhere is the name of the game. How beautiful.

[Brodie21]

@Mitja @jmlima I've  always played the game for slow & steady progression of the team and it's finances. But the few lads I know who play / played the game wanted instant success & would have no interest in the way I play it. I think that's why the Gegenpress feature offers the best of both worlds. Use it for quicker success; avoid it for more reality.

[CamAshworth]

Surely if a team with very low Mental and/or Physical attributes would get ripped apart trying to play in a non stop pressing system. This Leaving big gaps all over the pitch for the opposition to exploit. 

However in the current FM Match engine this is simply not the case.

That for me is where the frustration probably arises from for some players.

[Ein]

That people won't play a harder game is just an assumption, almost a conspiracy theory conveniently used to justify the status-quo. One of the most enjoyable saves for me was with Newcastle in an older FM where I finished 8th, then 6th, then started challenging for a CL spot. In the Roma save I mentioned earlier I intended to do a long-term homegrown challenge but the fact that I won everything immediately (including the Champions League in the second season) put me off. I don't believe that the game is intentionally easy. I think the new tactical creator has made the game easier because some things are not optimally calibrated and that addressing these miscalibrations is nigh impossible, which might explain why a switch to a new game engine is necessary.

[Brother Ben]

If they made it a lot harder this forum would be inundated with people saying the game was cheating them and that it was scripted.

We have seen it time and time again on here and that's with the current level of difficulty. 

It wouldn't be my cup of tea necessarily as I'm pretty crap at the game but imagine if you could replace the current default tactics that the AI managers use with these so called "game breaking tactics".  I dare say that would ramp up the difficulty. 

I'm pretty sure this is an option on CM0102 and I distinctly remember back then that it was a challenge to even make it to Christmas without getting sacked

Edited April 19 by Brother Ben
spelling

[jmlima]

7 hours ago, CamAshworth said:

Surely if a team with very low Mental and/or Physical attributes would get ripped apart trying to play in a non stop pressing system. This Leaving big gaps all over the pitch for the opposition to exploit. 

However in the current FM Match engine this is simply not the case.

 

Quite. And that is something you see every weekend when crap teams try to imitate the playing style of the top teams.

[Etebaer]

Am 19.4.2024 um 10:12 schrieb El Payaso:

What I don't understand at all is the need of winning virtual trophies. What do you really get by winning the Champions League or Premier League in a video game? Why is it so bloody important? 

Bcs. there is a big crowd of players that wants to live the fantasy of being a successful title winning manager or leading their favourite club to success or simply outdo their freinds winning streaks and brag about it and the game has to give this crowd a place to experience that fantasy.

FM Online btw. was not successfull bcs there were to many players not achieving that fantasy - you know: The second place is the first loser is the saying i guess and that means with that mindset that there are 15 to 19 or even 23 losers in every league!

 

If you look at the mindset of some football fans in real world look for example at germany an FC Schalke 04 and Borussia Dortmund.

Dortmund is at large the more successful club in the recent history and many times is placed ahead of Schalke in the league table but as long Schalke would beat Dortmund at least once a season and maybe have a good GD or more points out of both the home and away game they would be content with any place and call themself the regional champion (Ruhrpottmeister) which is not an official title but a purely made up title so they could feel successfull despite lacking league performances.

Now Schalke has been relegated and it works no longer but that is the mindset of many fans and computer players alike: "Give me something special that makes me feel successfull!"

 

In FM that something special is winning trophys and titles!

 

There are exceptionally few players that play a game for a real challenge - not that there is allways a bad motivation bcs if you play a certain game to relax you want the challenge to meet that relaxing gaming feeling rightly.

Yet FM seems to not have the tools to make that possible in every specific way that would satisfy everyone...

Edited April 20 by Etebaer

[Ein]

21 hours ago, Etebaer said:

FM Online btw. was not successfull bcs there were to many players not achieving that fantasy - you know: The second place is the first loser is the saying i guess and that means with that mindset that there are 15 to 19 or even 23 losers in every league!

Single player is always much more popular than multiplayer.

 

On 19/04/2024 at 16:03, Brother Ben said:

We have seen it time and time again on here and that's with the current level of difficulty. 

Forum posts are not a reliable metric. I doubt SI base their strategies on such posts. It's a bit amusing how SI tend to be accused of ignoring bug reports but are then presumed to take heed of such posts.

Besides, sales has nothing to do with playing time. Selling more copies doesn't necessarily imply that the game is played more or that a game is objectively better.

In general, more copies of PC games are sold and revenue keeps increasing (revenue from mobile gaming is over and above). FM is simply following the general trend.

[El Payaso]

On 20/04/2024 at 13:09, Etebaer said:

Bcs. there is a big crowd of players that wants to live the fantasy of being a successful title winning manager or leading their favourite club to success or simply outdo their freinds winning streaks and brag about it and the game has to give this crowd a place to experience that fantasy.

FM Online btw. was not successfull bcs there were to many players not achieving that fantasy - you know: The second place is the first loser is the saying i guess and that means with that mindset that there are 15 to 19 or even 23 losers in every league!

 

If you look at the mindset of some football fans in real world look for example at germany an FC Schalke 04 and Borussia Dortmund.

Dortmund is at large the more successful club in the recent history and many times is placed ahead of Schalke in the league table but as long Schalke would beat Dortmund at least once a season and maybe have a good GD or more points out of both the home and away game they would be content with any place and call themself the regional champion (Ruhrpottmeister) which is not an official title but a purely made up title so they could feel successfull despite lacking league performances.

Now Schalke has been relegated and it works no longer but that is the mindset of many fans and computer players alike: "Give me something special that makes me feel successfull!"

 

In FM that something special is winning trophys and titles!

 

There are exceptionally few players that play a game for a real challenge - not that there is allways a bad motivation bcs if you play a certain game to relax you want the challenge to meet that relaxing gaming feeling rightly.

Yet FM seems to not have the tools to make that possible in every specific way that would satisfy everyone...

So basically adults that never grow up?

I do understand passion and bragging rights in real life but "I have to win in a computer game to be able to play it" is something that is really hard to understand from grown men.

Also, this view doesn't align with the general idea of the game itself, which is (as far as I know) at least a semi-realistic career simulation. Something like promoting a local small club to the top flight and even as Champions League winners has nothing to do with career or realism. 

And a question also: don't people become bored at some point when they practically know that every career us going to be a fairytale? 

Edited April 22 by El Payaso

[Etebaer]

There you have it...

[Brother Ben]

23 hours ago, Ein said:

Forum posts are not a reliable metric. I doubt SI base their strategies on such posts. It's a bit amusing how SI tend to be accused of ignoring bug reports but are then presumed to take heed of such posts.

Besides, sales has nothing to do with playing time. Selling more copies doesn't necessarily imply that the game is played more or that a game is objectively better.

In general, more copies of PC games are sold and revenue keeps increasing (revenue from mobile gaming is over and above). FM is simply following the general trend.

To be fair I wasn't implying they were taking/not taking notice of anything.  I'm just saying based on my experience there are as many "the game is too easy" posts as there are that its hard.  You make some fair points though, I bought FM23 and FM24 on release day and have yet to play either as i'm unable to drag myself away from my FM22 save.

[GreenTriangle]

On 19/04/2024 at 14:10, Rodrigogc said:

Basically this whole issue about the game being easy would be solved if FM had difficulty levels. That won't happen, so...

I play chess, and there are engines in chess that are absolutely unbeatable, but you can play the weakest ones and gradually increase the level. Kids these days practice with engines and it gives them a lot of challenges.

Chess has clear rules. FM doesn't have. Imagine that your pawn tells you that he does not want to accept a move because you didn't increase his contract. Or that your queen categorically refuses any diagonal movement because you just sold a pawn usually used on the U18 board.

[Ein]

There's room for rules in FM tactics e.g. through the implementation of patterns of play, which, apart from being realistic, might help the AI. I already made a suggestion here.

[Rodrigogc]

3 horas atrás, GreenTriangle disse:

Chess has clear rules. FM doesn't have. Imagine that your pawn tells you that he does not want to accept a move because you didn't increase his contract. Or that your queen categorically refuses any diagonal movement because you just sold a pawn usually used on the U18 board.

FM has nothing to do with Chess as the match unfolds, since you can't control the "pieces" on the pitch. I only mentioned chess to make a point about difficulty levels. In FM's case, a stronger engine would make better decisions regarding subs, first eleven picking, transfers, scouting, players physical condition management, squad building... 

I've seen countless times in FM strong teams using players completely out of their original positions, forwards being used as central midfielders, AMCs being used as wingers, fullbacks being used as DMs... that's the similarity to chess, as weak engines make mistakes so that the human player can take a advantage of it. 

Edited April 22 by Rodrigogc

[GreenTriangle]

23 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

to make a point about difficulty levels.

FM is not based on fixed rules but on trends generated by combining various more or less variable parameters. And the number of parameters taken into account is very large. What this means ? That the introduction of the so-called "difficulty levels" can only be done by segmenting the level of variability. Low level = easy, current level = medium, high level = difficult. But too low / too high a level of variability would affect the realism of the game. Practically, the "easy" and "difficult" levels would have nothing to do with realism. And for the moment, SIGames is trying to perfect the game in such a way that it is as realistic as possible, to the extent that its engines (match engine, game engine, graphic engine) allows it. You know what's interesting ? Many FM players choose, by default, to use the "easy" level. That is, they artificially reduce the variability of the game in order to obtain positive results.

[NineCloudNine]

4 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

FM is not based on fixed rules but on trends generated by combining various more or less variable parameters. And the number of parameters taken into account is very large. What this means ? That the introduction of the so-called "difficulty levels" can only be done by segmenting the level of variability. Low level = easy, current level = medium, high level = difficult. But too low / too high a level of variability would affect the realism of the game. Practically, the "easy" and "difficult" levels would have nothing to do with realism. And for the moment, SIGames is trying to perfect the game in such a way that it is as realistic as possible, to the extent that its engines (match engine, game engine, graphic engine) allows it. You know what's interesting ? Many FM players choose, by default, to use the "easy" level. That is, they artificially reduce the variability of the game in order to obtain positive results.

FM is based on fixed rules though. Under the graphics it’s just a massive collection of numerical calculations. In theory an AI could crunch all possible choices and calculate the optimum input at each decision point. Solving the complexity of the interaction of all the variables is just a function of computing power.

Difficulty levels could thus involve simply removing constraints on what number-crunching the AI is allowed to do.

However, it is much more likely that difficulty levels would mean artificial +/- modifiers on calculations performed on the human player’s team/choices. Crude, but easier to tune.

Edited April 22 by NineCloudNine

[pelimies]

On 18/04/2024 at 13:18, Ein said:

Are you suggesting that SI intentionally dumb down the game to appeal to casual players and boost sales? Has this been a longstanding practice, predating the introduction of gegenpress?
 

Well they have toned down injuries from realistic levels because players complained about them a lot. That is probably intertwined with gegenpress because you can push your team to play and practice with high intensity with no real downside. This combined with every joe and harry being able to execute a gameplan seamlessly for 90 minutes is quite different from real life where e.g Liverpool's fitness staff had concerns about Philippe Coutinho's ability to execute Klopp's system week-in week-out. In real life one player slacking can destroy the whole pressing system with disastrous consequences, not so much in the game.

Finding and acquiring right kind of combination of skills, mentals, and physical ability to play this way is very hard, in real life. In the game any bigger club can find and purchase 22 of these beasts quite easily. 22 because now the already nerfed fitness issues are now completely removed, even if the team plays twice a week from august to june.

[El Payaso]

Also toning down the effectiveness of gegenpress, or more like: if the system would work realistically, this would practically force people to use some other highlights mode than key or extended as you would have to keep on eye how fatigue affects the team or who might be in danger of getting injured.

Personally I would love that but this would also force people to actually play the game instead of being just on autopilot. 

[NineCloudNine]

20 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Also toning down the effectiveness of gegenpress, or more like: if the system would work realistically, this would practically force people to use some other highlights mode than key or extended as you would have to keep on eye how fatigue affects the team or who might be in danger of getting injured.

Personally I would love that but this would also force people to actually play the game instead of being just on autopilot. 

Not everyone wants to play the game the way you think it should be played. Someone spending an hour or two on the game in the evening after a long day at work might quite like clipping through a few games rather than one or two. They certainly don’t want to spend that time reading Rashidi guides on how to set up a tactic or watching Youtube tutorials on the meaning of ‘mentality’.

This happens on the forums of every game I have ever played. Dedicated, hardcore players simply fail to understand the motivations of players who are less invested. But without those casual players, there wouldn’t even be a game for the hardcore to geek out over.

This is why I keep coming back to the same point. Since FM is overwhelmingly a single player game, it makes absolutely no difference if certain styles are overpowered because you can just not use them. You can make the game as easy or as hard as you want it to be, you don’t need SI to do it for you.

Edited April 23 by NineCloudNine

[El Payaso]

32 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Not everyone wants to play the game the way you think it should be played. Someone spending an hour or two on the game in the evening after a long day at work might quite like clipping through a few games rather than one or two. They certainly don’t want to spend that time reading Rashidi guides on how to set up a tactic or watching Youtube tutorials on the meaning of ‘mentality’.

This happens on the forums of every game I have ever played. Dedicated, hardcore players simply fail to understand the motivations of players who are less invested. But without those casual players, there wouldn’t even be a game for the hardcore to geek out over.

This is why I keep coming back to the same point. Since FM is overwhelmingly a single player game, it makes absolutely no difference if certain styles are overpowered because you can just not use them. You can make the game as easy or as hard as you want it to be, you don’t need SI to do it for you.

I know and that is why something should happen to also cater the players that want to play attention to detail and maybe manage 1-2 games per day. 

I don't mind if the game has this current autopilot mode also but would hope that there is at least a plan to also develop the game to satisfy the needs of the players that actually want to spend time on details. 

The problem currently is that the game only has one "mod" I it which is not loyal to the main purpose of the game which is a realistic simulation of football management. So it's not just my thinking of how the game should be played. 

Even though it's not the same, at least in the past we also had FM Classic(?) which was a more concise version of the game with less features. 

Edited April 23 by El Payaso

[NineCloudNine]

2 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

I know and that is why something should happen to also cater the players that want to play attention to detail and maybe manage 1-2 games per day. 

I don't mind if the game has this current autopilot mode also but would hope that there is at least a plan to also develop the game to satisfy the needs of the players that actually want to spend time on details. 

I don’t think I have ever played a game with more tools to geek out on than FM. I honestly don’t know what else you need. The depth of data, tactical tweaking, scouting, match preparation and training is so great as to risk being overwhelming to a new player. This is the point I keep coming back to - detail-oriented, meticulous players already have everything they need and a single community mod adds most of the rest.

Now, whether all those features work properly or not is another question!

[El Payaso]

4 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I don’t think I have ever played a game with more tools to geek out on than FM. I honestly don’t know what else you need. The depth of data, tactical tweaking, scouting, match preparation and training is so great as to risk being overwhelming to a new player. This is the point I keep coming back to - detail-oriented, meticulous players already have everything they need and a single community mod adds most of the rest.

Now, whether all those features work properly or not is another question!

There are plenty of tools, yes but due to the lack of difficulty, you are not "forced" to learn how to use them or even use them at all. Something like data hub sounds really interesting but how many of us are actually going to try and master it when you are going to be successful without ever using it? 

Something like the rather new mentoring system is a fantastic feature in the game and it works like it should be but most of the game features are not up to this level. 

[NineCloudNine]

32 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

There are plenty of tools, yes but due to the lack of difficulty, you are not "forced" to learn how to use them or even use them at all. Something like data hub sounds really interesting but how many of us are actually going to try and master it when you are going to be successful without ever using it? 

But why do you want to force people to use it?

It’s there for those who want it but not required for those who don’t. Why is that a problem? Why does it matter to you how other people play when you have all the tools you need to go as deep as you want?

I’ve been playing FM since it was CM but I can tell you I would 100% quit if mastery of the data hub became required to play the game. I am also happy to delegate training. But I am delighted that those features are there for players who enjoy them. 

[Rodrigogc]

 

That is the kind of difficulty most detail oriented players would like to face. Personally, I don't like managing bad teams and I like playing pressing systems though. That is the issue, because if II need to play Reading and not use pressing systems, I'm not gonna have any fun. I like managing good players and wish I could play any system with real challenges. In FM pressing systems have no downsides. Man Utd hasn't won anything worth noticing since SAF retired, in FM if you pick Man Utd you won't have half the problems they face IRL. 

The game is full of tools for hardcore players, but the fact is most of them are underdeveloped and in the end you have to turn a blind eye and not use x tactic, y role, buy nemanja motika while having 100M budget because otherwise you won't face any challenge anyway. 

I understand the game being made for casuals, but I feel FM now is too made for casuals. It is even a paradox, cause the number of tools and features have been increasing year by year, and AI is getting dumber and dumber year by year. 

Edited April 23 by Rodrigogc

[El Payaso]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

But why do you want to force people to use it?

It’s there for those who want it but not required for those who don’t. Why is that a problem? Why does it matter to you how other people play when you have all the tools you need to go as deep as you want?

I’ve been playing FM since it was CM but I can tell you I would 100% quit if mastery of the data hub became required to play the game. I am also happy to delegate training. But I am delighted that those features are there for players who enjoy them. 

I don't want to force everyone to use but instead I would like to see a more serious mod in the game which forces you to pay attention to details and different features of the game. 

For me it is absolutely fine to have the current state of the game as one of the modes but there should also be a more difficult and realistic mode to cater those who want to have a challenge. 

[NineCloudNine]

48 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

Man Utd hasn't won anything worth noticing since SAF retired, in FM if you pick Man Utd you won't have half the problems they face IRL. 

 

Just on this, I think part of the problem SI have is that they can’t properly represent the poor personalities or boardroom incompetence that underlie a lot of these IRL problems. For example, disastrous recruitment by DoF, lazy players sitting on big contracts, absolute assholes like Antony…

To an extent team dynamics and morale are intended to depict this side of management, but this can lead to fast downward spirals which might be realistic but are a horrible gameplay experience for most.

I do tend to support the idea of a hardcore mode in the game, where absolutely everything is tuned-up: more injuries, more random dynamics, better AI opponents. I’m unconvinced that many of the systems in the game could cope with multiple modes, but that is a different discussion!

[jmlima]

8 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Just on this, I think part of the problem SI have is that they can’t properly represent the poor personalities or boardroom incompetence that underlie a lot of these IRL problems. For example, disastrous recruitment by DoF, lazy players sitting on big contracts, absolute assholes like Antony… ...

Yup. Just about sums it up. Loads and loads more examples could be added to that list, but that's really the gist of the issues surrounding squad management, transfers and squad selection. For all the eye candy and loads of screens with random stats, people in the game are still unable to behave like real people do, or even come to a semblance of it. And the game is about managing people so...

[Brodie21]

10 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

But why do you want to force people to use it?

It’s there for those who want it but not required for those who don’t. Why is that a problem? Why does it matter to you how other people play when you have all the tools you need to go as deep as you want?

I’ve been playing FM since it was CM but I can tell you I would 100% quit if mastery of the data hub became required to play the game. I am also happy to delegate training. But I am delighted that those features are there for players who enjoy them. 

I am one that totally disagreed with Gegenpress until @NineCloudNine shared his thoughts. In short, if you only have limited time to enjoy the game & build a successful team, this is the tactic for you; if you are fortunate to have more time to afford this great game & to build slowly, avoid it. I have no idea of the figures but all my friends have / had only limited time....i'm just fortunate that I was able to retire early (Ahem)  ;-) 

[sthptngomad76]

What if you wanted to use gengenpress (eg recreate a teams particular style of play IRL) but wanted to have a challenge too?

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

3 hours ago, sthptngomad76 said:

What if you wanted to use gengenpress (eg recreate a teams particular style of play IRL) but wanted to have a challenge too?

Then you can restrict yourself on the players you use.

[NineCloudNine]

3 hours ago, sthptngomad76 said:

What if you wanted to use gengenpress (eg recreate a teams particular style of play IRL) but wanted to have a challenge too?

There’s lots you can do. Off the top of my head:

Use an attributeless skin. Impose a strict transfer policy on yourself. Never use player search, only scout reports. Pick a broke/weak team. Don’t do things (like do transfer deals between windows) that the AI doesn’t do. Recruit by character. Use the injury mod so you have to manage your team’s effort and pressing rather than just press ‘go’. Get deep into OIs. Get deep into training to make your players perfect for your style.

[El Payaso]

8 hours ago, Brodie21 said:

I am one that totally disagreed with Gegenpress until @NineCloudNine shared his thoughts. In short, if you only have limited time to enjoy the game & build a successful team, this is the tactic for you; if you are fortunate to have more time to afford this great game & to build slowly, avoid it. I have no idea of the figures but all my friends have / had only limited time....i'm just fortunate that I was able to retire early (Ahem)  ;-) 

Two questions to this. If you don't have time, which is fine as I don't have time either, why do you need to play more than 1-2 games a day? At least in my opinion that is the perfect pace to play the game. And secondly: why does the team have to be successful? 

 

[NineCloudNine]

9 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Two questions to this. If you don't have time, which is fine as I don't have time either, why do you need to play more than 1-2 games a day? At least in my opinion that is the perfect pace to play the game. And secondly: why does the team have to be successful? 

 

Your idea of the perfect pace isn’t the same as mine! I like to see progress and my vision for my club and players coming to fruition. I like long-term saves.

‘Success’ is relative. I don’t always play clubs that are going to win stuff, but I still want to do well by the standards of that club. Isn’t that the entire point if being a football club manager?

Your posts here are thoughtful but you are too hung up on your way of playing being the ‘right’ or ‘normal’ way. In psychology that’s called ‘naive realism’ and it’s a fascinating topic:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naïve_realism_(psychology)

Edited April 24 by NineCloudNine

[El Payaso]

41 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Your idea of the perfect pace isn’t the same as mine! I like to see progress and my vision for my club and players coming to fruition. I like long-term saves.

‘Success’ is relative. I don’t always play clubs that are going to win stuff, but I still want to do well by the standards of that club. Isn’t that the entire point if being a football club manager?

Your posts here are thoughtful but you are too hung up on your way of playing being the ‘right’ or ‘normal’ way. In psychology that’s called ‘naive realism’ and it’s a fascinating topic:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naïve_realism_(psychology)

So, why are you allowed to tell your opinions but me doing the same thing is somehow wrong? 

I'm snot telling anyone to do anything or play the game in the same way as I do. I'm only asking questions here. 

Doing well is understandable but basically if you set an aim and end up achieving that and probably way more, no matter what you do and this happening time after time and things do become a bit boring and predictable. And it also makes the game look a little bit bad. And this once again: just my own opinion and not a way that everyone else should think. Just bringing my own tiny piece to the conversation. 

Some of my opinions of course might be strong and suggestive and that is fine. In my opinion for example FM should not have the option to manage the games with key highlights. Why? Because this is not managing but instead just autopiloting and hoping for the best to happen. This is once again just my opinion but it has clear reasons behind it and also this view is 100% loyal to the idea of the game which is managing a football club (not just watching things pan out). 

Edited April 24 by El Payaso

[NineCloudNine]

32 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

So, why are you allowed to tell your opinions but me doing the same thing is somehow wrong? 

I'm snot telling anyone to do anything or play the game in the same way as I do. I'm only asking questions here. 

Doing well is understandable but basically if you set an aim and end up achieving that and probably way more, no matter what you do and this happening time after time and things do become a bit boring and predictable. And it also makes the game look a little bit bad. And this once again: just my own opinion and not a way that everyone else should think. Just bringing my own tiny piece to the conversation. 

Some of my opinions of course might be strong and suggestive and that is fine. In my opinion for example FM should not have the option to manage the games with key highlights as this is not managing but instead just autopiloting and hoping for the best. This is once again just my opinion but it has clear reasons behind it and also this view is 100% loyal to the idea of the game which is managing a football club (not just watching things pan out). 

Until a mod comes along and tells us to stop this enjoyable exchange, neither of us are right or wrong .

Your views on where the game’s difficulty balance should be are perfectly coherent and you’ve articulated them clearly.

My pushback is that you have put that difficulty centre of gravity at pretty much the exact way you like to play. Your suggested changes would force other people to play the game differently to how they currently play, for example by removing key highlights (which I am willing to bet is by far the most commonly used option) or by making it harder to ignore areas like the data centre.

If you don’t like key highlights, don’t use them. I don’t understand why you think that choice should be forced on the large numbers of players who do use that option.

This is the point I keep returning to: FM gives you the tools and options to make the game as easy or as hard as you like, including a free editor with which you can make wholesale changes to the game world. So there is no justification for asking SI to make the game harder for other people. We all play in our own sandbox.

[El Payaso]

41 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Until a mod comes along and tells us to stop this enjoyable exchange, neither of us are right or wrong .

Your views on where the game’s difficulty balance should be are perfectly coherent and you’ve articulated them clearly.

My pushback is that you have put that difficulty centre of gravity at pretty much the exact way you like to play. Your suggested changes would force other people to play the game differently to how they currently play, for example by removing key highlights (which I am willing to bet is by far the most commonly used option) or by making it harder to ignore areas like the data centre.

If you don’t like key highlights, don’t use them. I don’t understand why you think that choice should be forced on the large numbers of players who do use that option.

This is the point I keep returning to: FM gives you the tools and options to make the game as easy or as hard as you like, including a free editor with which you can make wholesale changes to the game world. So there is no justification for asking SI to make the game harder for other people. We all play in our own sandbox.

I don't think that we are doing anything wrong while discussing things and views, so no mod should have anything to say about this exchange.

The only reason why I am so strong in my own views is the fact that there is only one gaming mod available and if this mod can successfully be played in a way that I don't appreciate much (as you moght have noticed already) then how is the game going to be for players like me who play slowly, pay lot of attention to features and details etc. The only gripe I have is the fact that players like me don't have that "hard-core mod". 

How I tend to counter this is that I will use my best knowledge to limit my own success artificially but even that doesn't always do the trick, which is sad.

So, I still don't have anything against it how everyone plays the game but I am a bit frustrated with the fact that it is really hard to find a realistic challenge in the game as it can be mastered with casual game playing. This affects us all. 

[XaW]

49 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Until a mod comes along and tells us to stop this enjoyable exchange, neither of us are right or wrong .

As long as you two are behaving and not start name calling or that this thread turns into a "my dad is stronger than yours" playground argument, knock yourselves out.