FM24 Is it just me who has a problem with clubs recalling loans for not being played in exactly the correct position

[madeirabhoy]

Played for decades, admittedly I'm a press quick select sort of player who does everything in default. Never had problems with clubs recalling loan players for playing in the incorrect positions because I am obviously using the quick select which tends to pick players in their normal position.

 

started a save with Maritimo trying to get them back where they belong in the top league. No money to spend, so relying on loans. 

Two good young players from Porto on loan, both pulled (OUTSIDE THE TRANSFER WINDOW) a month into the season as I was playing them outside of the agreed position. both played every game in their normal midfield roles. when their manager tried to talk to me he used names for positions id never heard of. 

Being a Celtic fan I took 4 players on loan from the motherclub. 3 out of 4 recalled for playing outside of their agreed position in the January. 

 

Don't remember this being an issue in earlier versions. 

[Kickballz]

Sounds daft indeed.

Post it in the bugs where it belongs.

[Dagenham_Dave]

This is because you're not paying attention to the loan agreements when they are made. It clearly states on there what position and role the loaning club expect you to play that player in. You can usually negotiate this to fit in line with your own tactic, but if you just dismiss this and then start playing them in different positions and/or different roles, the parent club will get annoyed. I mean, it's not particularly realistic, especially if the player is in the right position and it's just the role that's off, but it is what it is, and it forces you to make sure you set up the loan contract the correct way. 

[Kickballz]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I mean, it's not particularly realistic

Sorry to snip, but regardless of the loan agreement, there should be some amount of leeway. Normally if a player is getting game time, it should often be enough for the parent club to overlook the exact position, In this case there is no consideration - just a recall. To me, this could be improved, and hence why I suggest posting on the bugs forum so SI can have another look at the code.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Oh I agree, but if you want to avoid that happening, it's pretty easy to do so. 

 

EDIT - Although what I would say is it's very rare that it's just a straight recall, usually the parent club manager will have a chat to you first and will only recall if he doesn't like your arguments. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Dagenham_Dave

[Kickballz]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Oh I agree, but if you want to avoid that happening, it's pretty easy to do so. 

Yes it is. But my concern is about improving the game.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Look at it the other way though, if you are sending a player out on loan, and he's your future BWM and the club you are loaning him to are playing him as a playmaker, thus not making the most of his attribute set and perhaps not developing him in the way you want, would you be happy? 

I mean, none of this probably happens in real life, but then in real life, players don't have attributes between 1-20 or CA/PA that grows/reduces based on a number of statistical factors, so perhaps in some areas you just have to suspend disbelief for a while. 

[Grez]

It's always happened to an extent, I've had AI managers complain and had players recalled on previous versions of FM due to players being in the incorrect position or role, or just due to their playing time. Whether it happens more or less this year I don't know though.

To be honest I don't mind it though, because I would do exactly the same. It's one of the reasons I dislike loaning players to the AI - they often train players badly, play them out of position etc - I'd recall them too. I wish we could set stronger rules for loans, for example sending a player out with a "Suggested individual training plan", or at least see what individual training a player is being given.

[Kickballz]

Mostly agreed (Regarding Dave)

I have experienced the situation of my players being played out of positions many time, and my honest answer is personally I am fine with it. I understand others may have a different take. I certainly wouldn't consider recalling a young BWM because he is being played as a playmaker.

My opinion is that you can't really put such restrictions in real life, and it probably doesn't even matter at the age. Game time is the most important thing.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Kickballz

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, Kickballz said:

I certainly wouldn't consider recalling a young BWM because he is being played as a playmaker.

In real life, neither would I. But this is a strategy game first and foremost. The lines get blurred with this because it's based on a real life sport with real life teams and players.  But it's a game of X's and O's at the end of the day. 

If I felt, in game,  that by playing the player in the wrong role would in some way hamper his development, I would probably recall him depending on the importance of the player in question. 

[Kickballz]

Very true about the blurred lines.

Some players want to 'outsmart' the sim. Other just want to switch off their brains and watch a semi- realistic football environment unfold. I probably tend towards the latter, which is why I will never be satisfied with FM.

You want to create the best team possible. I prefer to enjoy chaos in a more believable environment. It is all good.

Well not quite... I do still play long term serious saves, but I got a bit hooked on lower level management where failure becomes the norm (and sometime very amusing)

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Kickballz

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Look at it the other way though, if you are sending a player out on loan, and he's your future BWM and the club you are loaning him to are playing him as a playmaker, thus not making the most of his attribute set and perhaps not developing him in the way you want, would you be happy? 

I mean, none of this probably happens in real life, but then in real life, players don't have attributes between 1-20 or CA/PA that grows/reduces based on a number of statistical factors, so perhaps in some areas you just have to suspend disbelief for a while. 

Furthermore, the AI doesn't train like a typical human player who takes advantage of a mechanic. They are going to train players at the position they are currently playing in. So if the AI wants their player to be a future BWM, he expects him to play that role, as that is where his stats will get trained. Whereas a human sets the player to train at a position where he isn't playing because it gives them the best attributes covered in training.

It is also never an immediate recall. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Kickballz]

Further to that.  If you follow young player's development, it usually doesn't make much difference what role you train them. All their stats go up at the same time regardless of their role or position. Trying to shape a 16 or 17 year old into what you desire has rarely worked for me.

[Sunstrikuuu]

It's been a dumb problem since it was introduced into the game, and it's completely unrealistic.  The idea that a team can tell from afar whether a player is an inside forward or an inverted winger, or an advanced playmaker with a Hold Position instruction or an enganche, is absurd.

[Kickballz]

Correct, and it is completely outdated.

In  most footballing nations, young players learn technical and tactical skills. When they develop physically it adds another dimension. The idea of a 15 year old having one position is not very realistic.

[DarJ]

I've had AI managers complain that I'm not playing them but nothing more than that. I'm the one who usually ends the loans 

[enigmatic]

10 hours ago, Kickballz said:

Correct, and it is completely outdated.

In  most footballing nations, young players learn technical and tactical skills. When they develop physically it adds another dimension. The idea of a 15 year old having one position is not very realistic.

You can teach a 15 year old multiple positions. And you can loan a player without specifying a position (usually the club will ask for more money)

But if your Championship club has got a Premier League club's best young creative forward for very little money on the basis that he'll master the role they want to play in, they're probably not going to think you're developing him usefully by lumping long balls to his head or playing him in central midfield. They're not paying part of his wages so you can turn him into the sort of player that's useful to you...

 

Yes, the roles are too pedantic (the difference between a roaming playmaker and and advanced playmaker is entirely FM's invention, and there's far more difference between playing DM for a good team and a bad team that *isn't* reflected in game (FM24 does try to reflect style of play a little bit)

[Kickballz]

On 05/11/2023 at 15:12, enigmatic said:

You can teach a 15 year old multiple positions. And you can loan a player without specifying a position (usually the club will ask for more money)

But if your Championship club has got a Premier League club's best young creative forward for very little money on the basis that he'll master the role they want to play in, they're probably not going to think you're developing him usefully by lumping long balls to his head or playing him in central midfield. They're not paying part of his wages so you can turn him into the sort of player that's useful to you...

 

Yes, the roles are too pedantic (the difference between a roaming playmaker and and advanced playmaker is entirely FM's invention, and there's far more difference between playing DM for a good team and a bad team that *isn't* reflected in game (FM24 does try to reflect style of play a little bit)

The Premier league club can't dictate the way a side plays just because they loaned them a youngster.

Your example is clearly fairly extreme, but the lower league team still has to do what is right for them. In real life, more often than not, it comes down to the loaned player and whether he is playing and enjoying it.

A season long loan, playing regularly in a non-ideal position, is still going to be better than not playing first team football at all. The idea that a content player enjoying 1st team football (possibly for the first time) is recalled because someone thinks he should be playing advanced forward, rather than a defensive forward or target man, doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, I don't actually think we disagree. It is just a question of where to draw the line.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Kickballz

[enigmatic]

The lower league clubs in FM don't always do what you want either. And you can't stop them, you can only "speak to the manager", or recall the player in the next transfer window.

But you can absolutely guarantee that Premier League clubs do have a discussion about how a player will be used before they sign off the loan, and if they use them completely differently their attitude will be more "that loan was a mistake, maybe we should reconsider sending players to that club/manager in future" than "at least they got game time, that's all we care about". That's what the loan playing time and positions represent, albeit in a slightly clunky manner. Finding clubs willing to offer good enough young players game time at subsidised rates is not the difficult bit.

Edited November 9, 2023 by enigmatic

[Kickballz]

Agreed, but If we refer back to the OP:

On 05/11/2023 at 00:13, madeirabhoy said:

Two good young players from Porto on loan, both pulled (OUTSIDE THE TRANSFER WINDOW) a month into the season as I was playing them outside of the agreed position. both played every game in their normal midfield roles. when their manager tried to talk to me he used names for positions id never heard of. 

There is a common sense position, but this falls outside what I consider sensible. At this point it is down to SI tweaking the code to be more realistic - subjective as it may be.

I don't disagree with you other than margins, so I'm going to bow out thanks.

[rjferguson90]

Yes, had two players recalled from my J3 league side because they weren't being played in the exact roles in the initial agreement. The players were both averaging over 7.0 and doing well, they were being played in the agreed position but not the agreed role. My biggest issue with it is that the AI would not budge on the role they wanted the player to play when negotiating the loan. So you have to accept their demands, otherwise you won't get the player at all. It's far too rigid and seemingly no leeway.

 

[Etebaer]

I started a lower league save and have ~10 loans and it i cancelled any positional obligation out of the loan contracts (as i encountered that problem already in FM23), also if you loan a player for 2 yrs they should be unable to recall him in year one.

I had thus no trouble for having the loans play where they had to but it still comes to situations that loan plays not often enough - but then you have no use for him anyway...

Sometimes the other club will not give in and then it is up to you if you still loan the player (2yrs loan seem to block recalls in year one and some loans only can be ended when the transfer window is active so there is some leeway - also a few managers can be talked to be lenient for a while).

[nico_france]

Experienced even worst, player recalled, despite playing in the good position BUT not in the exact role set for the loan

 

[TheWednesday]

Could understand it more if it was a case of playing players in completely different positions to what has been agreed in the loan deal but where roles are concerned it's a bit extreme, especially if the player is getting regular game time.

Was hoping this would have been looked at for FM24, what's doubly annoying is I holiday between games so often I've returned ahead of a game only to find my loan players have been recalled leaving me scrambling on a match day to find replacements. 

[madeirabhoy]

had to quit my game and start again. Got Maritimo promoted, but still not much money, and every club id had players on loan from had recalled them and so in the new season, they were too unhappy with the club to consider new loans. 

 

will delete the agreed positions when looking at loans. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

At the end of the day, it's a binary thing. If you agree to something in the loan agreement and then fail to adhere to that agreement, then the opposing manager is well within his rights to recall the player. 

And anyway, in the conversation you have with the opposing manager you have before it gets to the recall stage, one of the options is to tell the other manager that he's playing regularly and what does it matter what role he's specifically playing, so you've got that on your side too, although it rarely makes a difference. 

Bottom line is whether you deem it realistic or not, it's in the game, and you have the tools at your disposal to make it sure it never comes to a recall. Most of it is simply paying attention.