442 flat defensive strategy

[mikcheck]

Hi,

This is not FM23, but I think the principles remain the same.

Is this defensive strategy too passive for you? Do you see something wrong that you'd change?

I have the players for this playing style, most of my attacking players are fast and good jumping reach too. Both of my wingers have at least 15 for jumping reach (I don't know exactly the attribute number because I play with stars, not attributes) . That is also why I don't  "play out of defence", I leave the distribution to be decided by the keeper. If he decides to play long, we can always have a good chance to win it in the air.

Thank you.

[Cleon]

Understanding The 4-4-2 Flat Version

Strengths

• Plenty of width and general wide play from the wingers
• Two solid banks of 4
• Cover down the flanks
• Doubling up down the flanks both in defensive phases and attacking phases of play
• The 4-4-2 can change into many different tactics which can add different kinds of aggression to your play

Weakness

• You can get outnumbered in the centre
• No real DMC cover
• Vulnerable to quick counter-attacking tactics that can focus on direct balls behind the two MCs
• Strikers can get isolated from the other 8 outfield players at times
• Strikers can also be found too far apart and not able to link up cohesively at times

This is the more neutral-focused 442 that concentrates on the defending and attacking ability of your team. This is a very good starting point for any side to see what your team is capable of. This type of formation should produce a fair number of goals as well as keep it very tight at the back if set up correctly. The wingers in this formation are vital for providing crosses into the box for your strikers. A lot of people also like to play one attacking midfielder and one defensive midfielder to make it a lot more balanced.

Understanding The 4-4-2 Basic Principles Of Various Versions

It’s vital that whatever formation you use, you learn what the strengths and weaknesses are, as this can be a deciding factor in what kind of style you are trying to create at the club. Understanding the strengths and weaknesses should allow you to eliminate a few of the available roles for certain positions depending on how passive or aggressive you want to be in the set-up. Not only that, but it’ll allow you to quickly identify the issues you might face when playing certain formations.

For example, if you use the flat 4-4-2 and come across a formation that uses an attacking midfielder, then you’ll know you need to make sure he is picked up by the midfield or he’ll have lots of unguarded space to play in just in front of your back four. I know it sounds really simple, but something like making one of the midfielders man marks or making them less attacking to deal with the threat can be the difference between a good or a bad result.

Defence

The fullbacks are one of the main strengths of this shape, as you can have many different types of fullbacks in this shape. Some of them are; overlapping fullbacks who are very offensive-minded and provide a very attacking option to the team. Another way is to make them mark the opponent’s forwards or wingers. These players have to be dependable and willing to give up any kind of offensive play as they will be very defensive-minded, so don’t expect them to contribute to attacks.

A third way to get them to work would be to have them work with the wingers (not overlapping though) and get forward to get crosses into the box at every chance possible for your strikers. The fourth way is more of a mixture between attacking and defending. The settings of this specific way really depend on how neutral you want to be. A good idea would be to not overdo it on the player instructions as that is more neutral.

One thing to keep an eye on when viewing this formation in the match engine is to make sure your defence isn’t sitting too deep watching the game and are basically spectating. This can cause players to either switch off or allow a gap to appear between the defence and midfield, making it harder to work as a unit. So if you feel this is happening in your game, then try and do something about it by either pushing the defensive lineup or using different roles or duties.

Ideally, the fullbacks should be supporting and joining the midfield regardless of what type of football you are playing. This will then allow the wide midfield players to bomb forward and make runs down the flanks. This is a very important part of the 4-4-2 because it uses width and the wide men need to provide support to the strikers. If this doesn’t happen, then the game can be a struggle.

Stopper/Cover

The stopper/cover combo can be really good too, but there is a downside to using this. If you use this combo and you face a team with a striker who drops off or an attacking midfielder who pushes us back. This can make your defence vulnerable at times due to the stopper pushing up to deal with the threat or dropping off to follow the deep striker. This will then mean a gap appears between both your centre backs so you have to be visually aware of late runners or through balls because they can really expose you. I personally favour the stopper/cover combo against long strikers for this very reason.

The sweeper and stopper systems are very similar and, from a positional sense, can look the exact same, but it’s what they do that makes them different. You have the sweeper set to where he’ll push up and mop up any balls that the defenders in front of him cannot deal with, and do what the name “sweeper” suggests, sweeping up any mistakes your front defenders might make. The stopper system uses his marking to either mark a striker or a central attacking midfielder of the opposing team. Plus, he is expected to play quick and early balls to your midfield to start early counterattacks.

Midfield

The midfield of a 442 formation can be very variable indeed; you can play a flat four midfielders, which is very stable and safe. You can use two wingers, one attacking midfielder and one defensive/wide midfielder, which is a common way people set up on Football Manager. Or instead of using two wingers, you can bring them into the middle of the pitch so you have two central midfielders.

This way makes you a lot narrower but is good if you have very attacking fullbacks who like to venture forward. You can also use two wingers and two defensive midfielders if you want to as well. There are also lots of other ways, like using a flat three midfielders with one defensive midfielder behind them.

In a 4-4-2 formation, it is common to have one defensive midfielder and another whose job is to get forward and join the strikers in the penalty area.

The defensive midfielder is charged with breaking up opposition attacks, and when the team is on the back foot, he acts as an extra member of the defence. Most good teams have a player capable of screening the defence, acting as an insurance policy should the team surrender possession.

The other midfielder still has defensive responsibilities, especially when his team does not have possession. But it is key that he gets forward to support the strikers when the team has the ball, otherwise, there is a risk that the frontmen will lack support, particularly if the wingers are not of the required quality.

More attack-minded managers may opt to have two midfielders who go forward, particularly against weaker teams, but it is considered the norm to field one more defensively-minded player.

If a manager is looking to surprise the opposition, he may tell his midfielders to take turns in going forward.

Defensive Midfielder

One of the more popular 442 systems to use is one that implements a defensive midfielder. When used correctly, you should find the opposition’s chances can be limited to long-range efforts. Playing against a back four and a defensive midfielder can be very hard to break down if you stay compact. This is an extremely useful set-up if you need to keep clean sheets and dominate the game in the midfield areas.

The defensive midfielder’s job is to break up play and distribute the ball upfield as quickly as possible or hold onto the ball and wait until a clear-cut pass arises. However, holding onto the ball for too long can cause problems, especially if he loses possession from dwelling on the ball. Remember too that using one of these in this shape can take something away from the tactic in an attacking sense, especially in terms of support from the centre. It’s about finding the right balance between defending and attacking, so keep a close eye on the game and the stats so you have a real understanding of how the game is actually going.

Wingers/Wide/Defensive Midfielders

The wide men are vital for providing support to the strikers and will be one of the main sources of your attacking threat. If not then maybe you might be best using a different shape as the 4-4-2 (a flat one obviously) is width dependent. They will provide crosses, run from deep, run at the defence, cut inside and even score goals depending on what you use and the settings they have. You have many varied roles to choose from and player instructions that can make the roles even more varied and custom tailored to suit your needs.

As you’ll likely not have much support from the central players in terms of continually supporting through the centre, this means you have to be aware of how your wide men are playing and what they are doing in a game. If someone is playing badly, then don’t stand by and watch it happen. Either sub them or try a different role. If you use the analysis tab, you should be able to see why they might be doing poorly.

Attacking Midfielder

Another popular choice in the Football Manager series is the use of an attacking midfielder. A lot of people use this system and play through the attacking midfielder, letting him get forward and create chances. A free role can work well in this position for the correct player as it allows him the licence to roam and wander looking for the ball, so this would be a role like the Treq. However, if you play through the attacking midfielder the opposition might soon see this and make it incredibly difficult for you to get the ball to him or are closing him down heavily.

If you see this happening, then try and find out why it’s happening and again change the role or the player. If it’s a case of the opposition not allowing him time on the ball, then changing the player is not likely to help, so I’d focus more on the role of the player and give him something else that either makes him play higher or drops deeper in the hope it gives him the space needed.

Strikers

As for the strikers in a 442 formation, you have a lot of options and variable partnerships you could use. It is common in this system to have one striker playing high up the field, capable of holding the ball up and laying it off to his partner. This player furthest up the field is often a big target man, with the physical strength to hold off defenders and bring his teammates into play, or someone pacier who can push the defensive line high up the pitch, making it harder for them to pick up the striker who dropped off the front.

But the front two do not have to comprise a big man and another striker running off him. Often, teams choose to deploy a withdrawn striker, capable of playing in the ‘hole’ (the area behind the main striker) and using his creative skills to set up those around him, primarily his strike partner. Former Netherlands international Dennis Bergkamp was a prime example of this type of player.

If you opt to field a creative player in the “hole,” the formation transforms into a 4-4-1-1.

Whichever front two combinations you choose to field, the player who is not a big target man or a withdrawn creative player, is likely to be a goalscorer, with the nous to sniff out and score chances in and around the penalty area.

[Cleon]

Might give you a bit of food for thought

[Johnny Ace]

I think that would be fantastic base in the lower/weaker leagues @mikcheck

I'm boring as all hell but I always sense danger when I see a BBM in a 4-4-2, the CM's need to be solid all-rounders, so just keep an eye on the player you use there  

[mikcheck]

@Cleon thanks!

@Johnny Ace and what if it's a team that is not on the lower/weaker leagues?  I mean, isn't a viable playing style? I'm playing in Eredivisie and even tho I'm not the best team, I have a good squad for that level. One thing that I find, is that I always have to ask my DLF to man mark the opposition DM or the more defensive MC, otherwise  there is always a man free if they play with a 3 man midfield and it open up gaps in my team.

Other thing that I never know what to use is attacking width because I think it makes sense to go a bit narrower with a 442, but with a balanced mentality, that might be too narrow, resulting in some congestion.

 

[Johnny Ace]

7 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

@Cleon thanks!

@Johnny Ace and what if it's a team that is not on the lower/weaker leagues?  I mean, isn't a viable playing style? I'm playing in Eredivisie and even tho I'm not the best team, I have a good squad for that level. One thing that I find, is that I always have to ask my DLF to man mark the opposition DM or the more defensive MC, otherwise  there is always a man free if they play with a 3 man midfield and it open up gaps in my team.

Exactly  It's a wee bit "primitive" in modern football especially when most teams you face will have a DM or AM, even Sean Dyche seems to have twigged on to this 

In all seriousness, I just like using it lower down the leagues then evolve it over the seasons, if it's playing well and getting results, that's all that matters 

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Exactly  It's a wee bit "primitive" in modern football especially when most teams you face will have a DM or AM, even Sean Dyche seems to have twigged on to this 

In all seriousness, I just like using it lower down the leagues then evolve it over the seasons, if it's playing well and getting results, that's all that matters 

Heavy influence in the Spanish game still via Athletico's 4-4-2 blueprint I think! Villa were running a version this season, not sure if they've gone more aggressive recently.

Athletico's old 4-4-2 system has been interesting of late: you can see bits of the modern box midfield in the space between the midfield and strikers which was designed specifically to win the ball back in the middle of the pitch.

[mikcheck]

Em 20/04/2023 em 18:06, Johnny Ace disse:

Exactly  It's a wee bit "primitive" in modern football especially when most teams you face will have a DM or AM, even Sean Dyche seems to have twigged on to this 

In all seriousness, I just like using it lower down the leagues then evolve it over the seasons, if it's playing well and getting results, that's all that matters 

Out of curiosity, which roles you'd use in a flat 442 if you had the players? I use a BBM but is one of my best players and I think he fits the role there, he's good at both positioning and off the ball, work rate and passing.

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

Out of curiosity, which roles you'd use in a flat 442 if you had the players? I use a BBM but is one of my best players and I think he fits the role there, he's good at both positioning and off the ball, work rate and passing.

My standard 4-4-2 is really simple but find it works well, I've used it the last few FMs, nice and simple

It usually helps drag me through the lower leagues until I can start picking up DMs, AMs and AMLRs 

 

[HanziZoloman]

@Johnny Ace does it work with Marking 4 and passing 5 guys? 

[Johnny Ace]

23 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Johnny Ace does it work with Marking 4 and passing 5 guys? 

I guess it does, my guys are pretty useless when I use it 

[Johnny Ace]

I waffled about it a bit here, it was the same set up and I was using really low down the footballing pyramid when attributes slapped me in the face 

I say really low down, I'm in the VNN there so had used it from lv9 or wherever Dynamo Melbourne start off 

[mikcheck]

Em 23/04/2023 em 14:08, Johnny Ace disse:

My standard 4-4-2 is really simple but find it works well, I've used it the last few FMs, nice and simple

It usually helps drag me through the lower leagues until I can start picking up DMs, AMs and AMLRs 

 

I know lots of people like to use 2 support duties in a 2 man midfield, but I don't like it, because I always miss someone to stay deeper to be a passing outlet when there's no other passing options.

Edited April 27, 2023 by mikcheck

[Johnny Ace]

10 hours ago, mikcheck said:

I know lots of people use 2 support duties in a 2 man midfield, but I don't like it, because I always miss someone to stay deeper to be a passing outlet when there's no other passing options 

Two Support duties can do that, I sometimes find a CM(D) (other D roles in CM are available) in a 4-4-2 can stay too deep and aren't really picking anyone up. With two CM(S)s they work as a unit, if one goes forward and other one hangs back just a little, enough for me. I think this is where player AI intelligence shows itself a bit ie they don't move up and down the pitch together like robots

It's all personal preference though @mikcheck 

[crusadertsar]

8 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Two Support duties can do that, I sometimes find a CM(D) (other D roles in CM are available) in a 4-4-2 can stay too deep and aren't really picking anyone up. With two CM(S)s they work as a unit, if one goes forward and other one hangs back just a little, enough for me. I think this is where player AI intelligence shows itself a bit ie they don't don't move up and down the pitch together like robots

It's all personal preference though @mikcheck 

Personally, I find carrilero or DLP (s) is perfect fit for this kind of safe passing deep option.

What's great about Support duty on DLP for example is that he will hold position but also be more decisive/proactive in his passing (due to higher individual mentality).

[Johnny Ace]

Would love to see a @crusadertsar style 4-4-2!  You've probably already posted one, I'll have to have  a look 

[mikcheck]

What about the defending duty FB? Would you use support duty with hold position PI instead? 

 

[Johnny Ace]

12 hours ago, mikcheck said:

What about the defending duty FB? Would you use support duty with hold position PI instead? 

 

If you're sticking with the BBM it could be something to try out and see how you feel about what you're seeing 

Personally, you'd have the two CDs and BWM already holding position so I'd think having 4 might restrict things offensively 

[mikcheck]

51 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

If you're sticking with the BBM it could be something to try out and see how you feel about what you're seeing 

Personally, you'd have the two CDs and BWM already holding position so I'd think having 4 might restrict things offensively 

Yeah I went for a defend duty because of both BBM and WM(a) and also to try to form a kind of back 3 with the FB(d) and CD's

[crusadertsar]

20 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Would love to see a @crusadertsar style 4-4-2!  You've probably already posted one, I'll have to have  a look 

 Speaking of good old 4-4-2, I am back to it as my primary tactic. Was getting tired of overly complicated tactics so decided to kick it old-school with a simplistic approach and with a club that has just the right players for this kind of hard-working two banks of four style. 

I have always enjoyed building a tactic around a specific team DNA and this year Wolfsburg seemed to be that team! They have just the right players to fit my hard-defending 4-4-2. Wolfsburg has like 5 players with Aggression, Bravery, Determination, Teamwork, Workrate, Acceleration and Pace at mostly 15 or higher! Unreal combination of attributes! Not really superstars but young, exceptional hard-working (and physically adept) cogs in the machine to make that 4-4-2 defend and attack as one unit. 

And yes there is some kind of written guide brewing from this soon 

Edited April 28, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Johnny Ace]

18 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

And yes there is some kind of written guide brewing from this soon 

Sounds awesome, will look forward to it! 

[coach vahid]

Il y a 2 heures, crusadertsar a dit :

 Speaking of good old 4-4-2, I am back to it as my primary tactic. Was getting tired of overly complicated tactics so decided to kick it old-school with a simplistic approach and with a club that has just the right players for this kind of hard-working two banks of four style. 

I have always enjoyed building a tactic around a specific team DNA and this year Wolfsburg seemed to be that team! They have just the right players to fit my hard-defending 4-4-2. Wolfsburg has like 5 players with Aggression, Bravery, Determination, Teamwork, Workrate, Acceleration and Pace at mostly 15 or higher! Unreal combination of attributes! Not really superstars but young, exceptional hard-working (and physically adept) cogs in the machine to make that 4-4-2 defend and attack as one unit. 

And yes there is some kind of written guide brewing from this soon 

It's not a flat 442 anymore....

[crusadertsar]

25 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

It's not a flat 442 anymore....

Sure, if you want to be pedantic 

It stays pretty flat to me when it matters. With the support duty, the DM moves up a little and stays in midfield around the same position that defend duty CM would take (my DM has hold position added instruction). While the BBM tends to make more risky late runs into the box. But when they defend they stay deeper around the same strata. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by crusadertsar

[HanziZoloman]

Looks great! I am still unsure about my tactic in VNS down below in England. My last approach with 3ATB was devastating and I am not sure if I go for it again or opt for a simple 442 like @Johnny Ace does in the Lower Leagues.

At dictate the game was a big and very good article about 3ATB in lower leagues but it didn’t work out for me.

Edited April 28, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[mikcheck]

@crusadertsarsince a flat 442 requires players with good defensive attributes in the middle, in which unit do you put your BBM in? Defensive?

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, mikcheck said:

@crusadertsarsince a flat 442 requires players with good defensive attributes in the middle, in which unit do you put your BBM in? Defensive?

I would say BBM is foremost part of defensive unit. Because when you lose the ball and your team regroups back into their  defensive positions, he has to be able to get back and assist the other midfielder. In 4-4-2 with only two midfielders you don't have the luxury of fielding a completely offensive midfielder like CM(a).

[CharlieTZR]

On 28/04/2023 at 19:04, crusadertsar said:

 Speaking of good old 4-4-2, I am back to it as my primary tactic. Was getting tired of overly complicated tactics so decided to kick it old-school with a simplistic approach and with a club that has just the right players for this kind of hard-working two banks of four style. 

I have always enjoyed building a tactic around a specific team DNA and this year Wolfsburg seemed to be that team! They have just the right players to fit my hard-defending 4-4-2. Wolfsburg has like 5 players with Aggression, Bravery, Determination, Teamwork, Workrate, Acceleration and Pace at mostly 15 or higher! Unreal combination of attributes! Not really superstars but young, exceptional hard-working (and physically adept) cogs in the machine to make that 4-4-2 defend and attack as one unit. 

And yes there is some kind of written guide brewing from this soon 

I try a lot of tactics and usually try to adapt to various teams but somehow I end up to something similar with yours, except moving B2B to Segundo Volante (At); also some vaiations for players role to adapt to the club I am playing.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, CharlieTZR said:

I try a lot of tactics and usually try to adapt to various teams but somehow I end up to something similar with yours, except moving B2B to Segundo Volante (At); also some vaiations for players role to adapt to the club I am playing.

Nice! And how is this tactic working for you. In FM23?

[mikcheck]

Here's some details for this last season, including the tactic and instructions I used for the most, sometimes I change the width (I never really know which setting to use here) and much more urgent pressing sometimes too. Results have been meh, considering that I have some good players. I don't know if it's because the ME doesn't favour lower lines (remember this is FM21), but I don't want to believe that

 

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by mikcheck

[mikcheck]

I'm sorry for the images, they're too big and the post is not very well presented and somewhat confusing because of that. I hope it doesn't bother you much. I'd just wanted to show you some info about the season with this tactic.

Just another 2, average possession and headers won. I see that the strategy to only buy players that have good jumping reach for the kind of football I want to play (amongst other attributes of course, depending on their position) somehow resulted, as we stand 1st, with 55% ratio. I found that curious

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by mikcheck

[Johnny Ace]

Jumping Reach is very useful in football but that's pretty interesting @mikcheck

I did a save either last year or the year before were I only brought in players 6'0 plus, was successful and a lot of fun (I hate my players losing aerial duals ) 

[mikcheck]

4 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Jumping Reach is very useful in football but that's pretty interesting @mikcheck

I did a save either last year or the year before were I only brought in players 6'0 plus, was successful and a lot of fun (I hate my players losing aerial duals ) 

Yeah I find that it can be useful for this playing style. Not only that but also a keeper with good vision and kicking. That's why I don't select nothing else but counter "in transition". Sometimes his kicks are really stupid and it makes me pull my hair , but I guess I have do deal with it 

[Argonaut]

I really like the dual CM(s) setup in a 2 man midfield as well. I use them with Hold Position in my 3-4-3 Flat. Keeps them as a unit in both defense and attack, and will help when outnumbered against formations with 3 man midfields. I look for good all-rounders for the role.

Could work well in a 4-4-2 as well if you have sufficient attacking support from the flanks.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Argonaut

[Johnny Ace]

While this thread's still going, has anyone given a 4-4-2 DM a go? Jotting down a Man Utd 1993/94 season tactic and think I'll give it a go 

[CharlieTZR]

On 05/05/2023 at 13:27, Johnny Ace said:

While this thread's still going, has anyone given a 4-4-2 DM a go? Jotting down a Man Utd 1993/94 season tactic and think I'll give it a go 

please don't forget to post here your tactics (I love historical ones).

[CharlieTZR]

On 01/05/2023 at 21:01, crusadertsar said:

Nice! And how is this tactic working for you. In FM23?

It works fine but only after I transfer the players I need, usually the clubs I play with go with 4-3-3 (this is my second most played tactic).

I have two tactics which I use depending on the players available, one flat 442 with B2B/BMW combo and one 442 DM with Regista and SV/BMW or even DM. In last case tactic I might move one of the strikers in AMC if he's role/position is much better there. So I am a big fan of 442 in general but tbh the tactic I find the most versatile and especially for small clubs is 433

[HanziZoloman]

Am 5.5.2023 um 12:27 schrieb Johnny Ace:

While this thread's still going, has anyone given a 4-4-2 DM a go? Jotting down a Man Utd 1993/94 season tactic and think I'll give it a go 

In my youth challenge I’ve settled for a 442 DM

[Johnny Ace]

On 07/05/2023 at 10:45, HanziZoloman said:

In my youth challenge I’ve settled for a 442 DM

I had a play with it, seemed to replicate pretty well 

[HanziZoloman]

How would you set up a possession based 433 for a lower league team with passing 7-9 players?

+ wrong thread I mix the 442 and 433 up sorry 

Edited May 10, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[Johnny Ace]

11 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

How would you set up a possession based 433 for a lower league team with passing 7-9 players?

You're probably best off starting your own dedicated thread @HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

Maybe but thanks anyway 

[Robson 07]

A very simple rule of thumb is that roles which come with a lot of hard coded player instructions typically require better players to pull them off i.e. those with more C.A.   So roles like FB Support and CM Support are nice and uncomplicated for lower level players but they may not have the movement needed to succeed as well at elite levels.

Something else to keep in mind with the 442 is forwards that run into the channels.  I've noticed that if they both do this then they can play apart from each other and combine less. Combination heat maps in the data hub will show this with them pulling more toward the wings.  Having at least one of them keeping more central can help provide greater threat.  

[mikcheck]

1 hora atrás, Robson 07 disse:

A very simple rule of thumb is that roles which come with a lot of hard coded player instructions typically require better players to pull them off i.e. those with more C.A.   So roles like FB Support and CM Support are nice and uncomplicated for lower level players but they may not have the movement needed to succeed as well at elite levels.

Something else to keep in mind with the 442 is forwards that run into the channels.  I've noticed that if they both do this then they can play apart from each other and combine less. Combination heat maps in the data hub will show this with them pulling more toward the wings.  Having at least one of them keeping more central can help provide greater threat.  

I'm using a DLF(a) and a AF as strikers. I also set the DLF(a) to roam and stay wide because on his side he has a BBM and a IW who comes inside. I also find that the Poacher is too static for my liking.

Edited May 13, 2023 by mikcheck

[Robson 07]

21 hours ago, mikcheck said:

I'm using a DLF(a) and a AF as strikers. I also set the DLF(a) to roam and stay wide because on his side he has a BBM and a IW who comes inside. I also find that the Poacher is too static for my liking.

The stay wider PI is worth experimenting with.  I think with that the striker should be wider and then cut inwards to the channel; as opposed to moving from in to out which is possibly a type of run more suited to counterattacking style.

I'm using a 4411.  My striker is a poacher in that system as I absolutely want my one and only striker straight down the middle between the posts.  My no.10 is normally a shadow striker who has greater movement and the ability to take defenders away and into the channels.  Occasionally the no.10 becomes a Trequartista if I'm using a highly skilled more creative player but this is where I'd again mention C.A.  Need to have someone that is good enough to pull of the Treq role.

[mikcheck]

4 horas atrás, Robson 07 disse:

The stay wider PI is worth experimenting with.  I think with that the striker should be wider and then cut inwards to the channel; as opposed to moving from in to out which is possibly a type of run more suited to counterattacking style.

I'm using a 4411.  My striker is a poacher in that system as I absolutely want my one and only striker straight down the middle between the posts.  My no.10 is normally a shadow striker who has greater movement and the ability to take defenders away and into the channels.  Occasionally the no.10 becomes a Trequartista if I'm using a highly skilled more creative player but this is where I'd again mention C.A.  Need to have someone that is good enough to pull of the Treq role.

That's interesting. So you use a SS and a Poacher? I guess you'll need a smart and creative player playing the SS, so he knows where to be and also feed the Pocher. Against teams that sit back, don't you find the Poacher a bit useless there? Do you change his role in those situations?

Also, regarding your 4411, could you mention the other roles you use in your setup?

[Cloud9]

On 13/05/2023 at 02:38, Robson 07 said:

A very simple rule of thumb is that roles which come with a lot of hard coded player instructions typically require better players to pull them off i.e. those with more C.A.   So roles like FB Support and CM Support are nice and uncomplicated for lower level players but they may not have the movement needed to succeed as well at elite levels.

Something else to keep in mind with the 442 is forwards that run into the channels.  I've noticed that if they both do this then they can play apart from each other and combine less. Combination heat maps in the data hub will show this with them pulling more toward the wings.  Having at least one of them keeping more central can help provide greater threat.  

Totally agree that the "Blank Roles" (CM(s) FB(s) etc) being easier to execute for low quality players (as compared to a BBM who HAS to be complete), but I differ when it comes to them falling off as your team progresses.

I use the Blank Roles to prioritize tactical instruction, since they're entirely customizable in the PIs. That doesn't mean they're weaker with strong players (as far as I understand). 

[Robson 07]

18 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Also, regarding your 4411, could you mention the other roles you use in your setup?

From right to left.

GK

FB(s), DC, DC, FB(s)

W(a), Car(s), CM(s), IW(a)

SS

P

  

[Canalma]

I'm not a tactical genius by any chance, but this 442 has been working incredibly well for me, it holds it's own on both ends of the pitch against any kind of team. Other facets of the game like man management, training and set pieces are just as important to me to gain an extra edge. As for the positions:

SK - Just the standard goalie, as long he's not a terrible passer

WB - This is where i have my best full back, Grimaldo, and this role allows me to utilize his skillset to it's fullest. He's told to stay wider as he's the attacking outlet on my left side.

BPD - I got great ball playing defenders on the likes of Otamendi and mostly Antonio Silva, playing from the back allows them launch attacks very efficiently.

DC - This is where i put my best jumper, as they are my set piece magnets. My 2 options here, Verissimo and Morato are also quick and capable of dealing with a lot of situations in both the ground and air.

FB - Here I have a very physical and tenacious full back, Gilberto. He's not allowed anything too fancy and he covers the flank while the winger in front of him does his thing.

IW - This is where I would place my best passer. He's told to take more risks and he uses the 'cuts inside with ball' instruction to place himself behind the strikers in the AM strata and play balls into them.

DLP and BBM - Any player that plays these roles must be able to defend well. I place the DLP(de) on the left to cover for the WB's forward runs. This pairing has worked very well to me.

W - A standard winger. I have not been able to utilize this role to it's fullest yet on my team because all my right wingers have a 'cut inside from flanks' trait, so i don't know yet how potentially good this role will work out.

AF - I prefer a quick striker here, as he will be receiving a lot of balls over the top or into space, aerial ability is a bonus here, luckily my strikers (Ramos and Musa) have both.

DLF - I play a more technically gifted striker here. I use Guedes here even though he's mainly a winger/inside forward, but he's technically good enough to play killer balls to the AF and the W, and a competent finisher himself to be on the receiving end of them as well. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Canalma

[nick1408]

4 hours ago, Canalma said:

I'm not a tactical genius by any chance, but this 442 has been working incredibly well for me, it holds it's own on both ends of the pitch against any kind of team. Other facets of the game like man management, training and set pieces are just as important to me to gain an extra edge. As for the positions:

SK - Just the standard goalie, as long he's not a terrible passer

WB - This is where i have my best full back, Grimaldo, and this role allows me to utilize his skillset to it's fullest. He's told to stay wider as he's the attacking outlet on my left side.

BPD - I got great ball playing defenders on the likes of Otamendi and mostly Antonio Silva, playing from the back allows them launch attacks very efficiently.

DC - This is where i put my best jumper, as they are my set piece magnets. My 2 options here, Verissimo and Morato are also quick and capable of dealing with a lot of situations in both the ground and air.

FB - Here I have a very physical and tenacious full back, Gilberto. He's not allowed anything too fancy and he covers the flank while the winger in front of him does his thing.

IW - This is where I would place my best passer. He's told to take more risks and he uses the 'cuts inside with ball' instruction to place himself behind the strikers and play balls into them.

DLP and BBM - Any player that plays these roles must be able to defend well. I place the DLP(de) on the left to cover for the WB's forward runs. This pairing has worked very well to me.

W - A standard winger. I have not been able to utilize this role to it's fullest yet on my team because all my right wingers have a 'cut inside from flanks' trait, so i don't know yet how potentially good this role will work out.

AF - I prefer a quick striker here, as he will be receiving a lot of balls over the top or into space, aerial ability is a bonus here, luckily my strikers (Ramos and Musa) have both.

DLF - I play a more technically gifted striker here. I use Guedes here even though he's mainly a winger/inside forward, but he's technically good enough to play killer balls to the AF and the W, and a competent finisher himself to be on the receiving end of them as well. 

I find the 4-4-2 is the easiest formation for a non-tactical genius to get a result from. You've also thought about what you want. Your team instructions work well with your only player instruction (LB: Stay Wider) and you've taken into account your player's individual abilities. I also like your use of Guedes as a striker rather than a winger. Good work on using players attributes instead of just what the position says.

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, nick1408 said:

I find the 4-4-2 is the easiest formation for a non-tactical genius to get a result from. You've also thought about what you want. Your team instructions work well with your only player instruction (LB: Stay Wider) and you've taken into account your player's individual abilities. I also like your use of Guedes as a striker rather than a winger. Good work on using players attributes instead of just what the position says.

What do you like about using Guedes as a DLF instead of a winger?

Checked out his profile and some of his attributes would leave him restricted to wide dribblely boy for me at least (11 decisions, 11 composure, 12 first touch, 12 vision, 12 strength). IMO he would struggle as a DLF, both in hold up play and in playing in others.