Jogo Bonito - "Beautiful Game": Guide to Playing 4-2-3-1 Like a Brazilian (Updated on Jan 15, 2024)

[JonnyHughes]

I've been giving this system a go with my Parma side and it plays some lovely football so far.

Only issue I'm having is the Complete Forward performances have been a little below par with only 2 goals in 7 from the main striker used in that role.

I do have a feeling it's down to the player not being a natural in the role just yet so it's something I'm going to monitor going forward

[BadAss88]

@crusadertsar isn't it more logic to switch some roles around? In your case:

CF-s            
T-a          SS-a   IW-s
SV-s BWM-d
WB-d CD-s BPD-c CWB-a
SK-s

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

@crusadertsar isn't it more logic to switch some roles around? In your case:

CF-s            
T-a          SS-a   IW-s
SV-s BWM-d
WB-d CD-s BPD-c CWB-a
SK-s

That does make logical sense. But my tactic is all about exploitation of space,  by my two key roles, Treq and SV. I don't want them to get into each other way. Especially my Trequstista who is my most creative player. He will need as much space as possible without another player getting in there. I want my two runners CWB and Shadow Striker not far from him. Defensive wingback is not giving him adequate support.

It's still early days and I'm hesitating whether i even need to use asymmetry. A lot of my attacking players tend to know when to move into channels anyway. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

@BadAss88 Besides I rather like how my Trequartista Marcus Edwards is operating right now  He has contributed with 4 points in 3 games so far. 2 goals and 2 key assists. And 2 of those 3 games were very difficult AWAY games (is it me or did they get really hard in FM23!?) against opposition that absolutely parked the bus against us. Nevertheless we still destroyed them. A pretty good start to the season if you ask me. So don't want to mess up Marcus' groove. 

Still early into the season but already some good signs. I am really enjoying watching the football produced by this tactic. Especially how our four front attackers are interacting. They are roaming around alot and making nice passing sequences in the build-up to goals. Lots of through balls, one-twos and precise, penetrative movement into space. Exactly the kind of move-and-pass football that I am looking to create. Of course it helps that my team is packed with lots of technical forwards (with good vision and passing). In general because of my players' complex attacking behavior lots of spaces tend to open up that we can can exploit. Hence our success against ultra defensive sides so far. We are also getting lots of high quality chances. And statically dominating the matches in possession so far. 

And this is the man of the hour himself! I am nicknaming him Marcus from now on, in Brazilian fashion because he totally deserves it.

And our Shadow Striker Pedro Gonsalves ain't half bad either.  4 goals and 1 assist so far.

This is what the tactic looks like presently. As you can see, not many changes. But a few small tweaks. And still keeping it very barebones during the testing phase.

Changed WB(D) into FB(S) to increase his individual mentality and risk taking a tad. And had to alter Segundo Volante role into a Roaming Playmaker (as someone suggested in the thread before ) because it was just not fitting my player (Hidemasa Morita). Morita seems to perform very well in the new role (which is perfectly suited to him anyway) with lots of space for him to create from deep and move into during counters. I still hope to get Segundo Volante to work in this tactic eventually. But it will take a special kind of player. Maybe a newgen wonderkid one day. For now I'm happy enough with how RPM works. 

More updates to follow soon. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

Our latest victory against Maritimo is representative of the recent tactical trend. Man, can we really break down those pesky parked buses or what!?Maritimo lined up in my dreaded formation (in FM), the 3-4-2-1. I had so much trouble breaking down teams using this tactic in FM22. It easily cost me a title or two in my Villareal campaign. Well, wish I tried my "Brazilian 4-2-3-1" back then 

The match was tough but we still dominated them with plenty of shots and two quality ones got through. Their only goal was a last minute consolation penalty.

For us, this was the definite highlight goal and probably my favourite goal of FM23 so far. The 6th (in 5 games) one for our Shadow Striker star, Pedro. The counter that started it all. Our left fullback youngster Jose Marsa was key in that and really confident on the ball for someone that young. And then the play between Pedro and his striker partner Paulinho (playing as DLF(A) because he is more suitable to that rather than CF) was simply sublime. 

This is why love the Shadow Striker role!

And here is my current tactic with all of its individual instructions if anyone is interested:  Brazilian.fmf

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by crusadertsar

[SteinkelssonFM]

Can't believe I have missed this thread, absolute top top drawer. 👏

[Bahnzo]

I've done a bit of testing on this as well, and one thing I've noticed is you really need to make sure you SS has the PPM's you mention, or they don't seem to get forward enough. It could be the players I'm using, but they have no PPM's at all, and the SS never really seems to make any runs into the box. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Bahnzo

[w_x]

On 10/11/2022 at 03:23, crusadertsar said:

1st Day at Sporting: My Guide to Things to Do Before Pressing CONTINUE

At this point, having chosen your club, you probably have a basic idea of how you want them to play. In general attacking/possession systems are best suited to the top few clubs in their league. And as I mentioned before, to play Brazilian-style football, you will need a team that has players with attributes suited to both attacking and possession style. Brazilian Jogo Bonito is a demanding combination of the two styles. Also, you can quickly assess the suitability of any team by using my custom attribute filter. The download link will be posted here soon.

So if your team fits the Jogo Bonito template, then the next step is deciding on the formation shape. This choice is not as important as having the right players for the style. Usually, going with any formation that grants an advantage in the midfield is a good idea. Thus both 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 are a good choice. They offer a good balance of defence and attack, wide and central attack. And they are both fit teams looking for progressive possession (due to staggered role distribution). Usually teams that have players for one formation will also be suitable for the other. Shadow striker can easily be turned into an attacking central midfielder (ala Lampard). When managing a strong team, I tend to train both formations, and mostly use 4-2-3-1 as my go-to attacking tactic against weaker opposition. Then the more defensive 4-3-3 - for tougher away games and Champions League opponents.

Even if you do not know the exact roles and instructions, you will need to decide on the formation, because that needs to be set before you can do the next step, using the Squad Planner tool. The tool won't work until you either select a tactical preset, load a downloaded tactic or create your own. On your first day, you won't need to worry about the details of the tactic like the instructions. You will have a few weeks before the start of the regular season to figure those out. For now just take the time to set the team mentality and set up the roles. Depending on how you want your tactic to play, you might have a general idea on the mentality and some of the roles. I also added a few instructions which I believe to be central to the style I'm trying to recreate.

Again, these are not finalized but they do give a general idea on how I want my team to play. Attacking, fluid, pass-and-move football. Maintaining possession as desired but not required. Not Tiki-Taka but Vertical Tiki Taka focused on possession with intent and vertical progression of the ball. And to defend we want to defend proactively, very high and compact. Again, because that's how Zagallo ran his team. I went ahead and set the roles that I want to try in my tactic. I came up with these after doing my research on 1970s Brazil tactic. You can read about some of those in my previous posts. The actual roles might still change as I continue the save so don't get to hung up that aspect this early on. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to at least figure out who you want to be your runners, supporters, defenders and scorers. 
 

Important Note: I did not use "Attacking" team mentality despite desiring a rather offensive style of football. When testing a new tactic, I prefer to start off conservatively with my mentalities and instructions. This way we will not be too exposed to counter-attacks if there are major faults in the tactic. A more balanced approach allows me the luxury to observe how the roles are interacting with each other over the first couple of matches. If I see that we are not creating many chances (or only low quality chances) then at least there are a few areas where I can boost risk-taking. Such as by increasing team mentality by a notch or making or adding overlap/underlap instructions to accentuate some of my players' behaviors. It'd a much better platform to start tweaking a tactic, rather than starting with all the high risk options turned on. 

Now that the foundation of the tactic is set, it is time to look closer at the individual players. The 2nd thing I do is to assess my First Team squad (and the more promising prospects in the reserves). The new Squad Planner tool makes this process easier than ever before. Not only does it conveniently organize all your teams (1st, reserves, youth) in a visually appealing manner but also allows you to move the players around to try to build a sort of depth chart for each position in the tactic. You can also filter certain players out, if you only want to see players from the 1st squad for instance.

My Keeper position definitely lacks depth with Adan being the only real option. He better not get injured. And this will definitely be our first scouting focus.

The tool even allows you to add future transfers from your shortlist and see where they fit on your depth chart. But I won't be doing that on the very first day.

After setting up the basic shape and roles and having used the Squad Planner, should give you a good idea of who are your key players. That's the players whom you will want to retain long-term at whatever the cost. These are mine.

Usually my key players are:

1) In positions with very thin substitute depth (as per Squad Planner). It could adversely affect your tactic if one such player gets a long-term injury or his release clause gets triggered. These positions should be among your first transfer and scouting targets. And make sure that the players are tied down with a good long-term contract because you never know how long it might take you to find an equivalent or better substitute. In my squad, my 1st choice Keeper Antonio Adan and my Segundo Volante Hidemasa Morita are such players. In both cases we do not have very good substitutes if those two get injured.

2) Are older but with very good current ability (3.5 stars and higher) and with short term contracts and/or low release clauses. They will become transfer targets for multiple clubs very soon. The longer you wait the harder it will be to resign them. And due to their high ability, without these players the tactic could be drastically affected.

3) High potential young prospects who are ready/or almost ready for 1st Team and are not tied down with a long term contract of a high release clause. It is important to never lose track of the future of the club. Make sure the wonderkids are secured at the very start of the save. You don't want PSG unsettling your best youngster in your first week on the job. Sporting's young prospects like Joelson Fernandes and Jose Marsa are on the cusp of 1st Team football but only have contracts until 2023 and 2024. My first order of business will be resigning those.

I try to sign as many of my key players as possible on long-term contracts. You do this at case by case basis. Sometimes one extra year is not worth it if it means a big jump in their salary. Also, make sure to check whether there are any contract extension clauses that you can trigger before you sign a new contract.

 

And of course check the release clauses on all players. Make sure they are not too low in comparison to the value of the player. Sometimes signing a longer contract might not be a good idea if the player forces you to lower the release clause value.

If you see major gaps in the quality for any of the positions in your tactic, then it is probably a good idea to set a priority to scout players to fill that role. Although it is not something I generally do on my first day. Simply, because I like to turn-off early transfers in most of my saves. I like to see what I can do with the squad at hand before trying to fix it. It also gives me more time to properly scout the required positions and avoid impulse buys.

So there are definitely a lot of things to consider before you move to the next part. And your first day on the job is not even over yet!

Next order of business, is to identify gaps in the coaching staff. To do that you'll first need to assess the current coach workload and optimize it. That means moving coaches around into training areas they excel at (have highest star rating for). Also at the same time try to reduce their workload if possible. As a rule of thumb I prefer that my trainers aren't involved in more than 4 training areas. This process of optimization and workload redistribution is bound to expose areas where training coverage is thin. This is designated by "heavy" workload label at the bottom. Some actual gaps (no coaching coverage at all) might become apparent.

I was able to redistribute Sporting staff workload so we have min 3.5 star ratings across all categories, except fitness. So that will be where I will be hiring new staff.

Don't leave any training holes before closing this screen. It's better to have "Heavy" workload rather than no workload at all. But at least now you know what kind of coaches you will need to look for. In this case you might have to ask your assistant coach (usually the most well-rounded trainer) to cover those gaps (even if their workload goes above four areas). Or you might have to cover it yourself. This is a temporary solution. Your next step should be to hire more specialized coaches to fill the deficient training areas. In some cases, it might be harder done than said. If your training staff is already maxed out then go ahead and ask your board for more coaches. This is usually granted at the beginning of save, unless your club isn't doing well financially.

On the topic of training, I also like to set up the individual training for my 1st Team players. This is rather simple. I train everyone in their role (in the tactic). I try to keep the intensity at medium, with a few exceptions. If a key attribute (for the role) is lacking then I will set the additional attribute focus. And if the player is 23-25, and almost exhausted his growth potential, I increase his training intensity to "double". To try to get as much attribute improvement as possible in the limited time. Regarding general training, I started letting my assistant handle it since FM22. And honestly, I have not seen much difference from when I taking hours to tinker with it myself. The players still improve their attributes in all the usual ways. So less busywork for me. And I can focus on more important management tasks. 

So now that I organized my coaching team and hired new coaches, one last thing that I like to do is to set the responsibilities for my backroom staff. I am a type of manager that likes to delegate as much busywork as possible to my staff. So that I can focus on the things that I love in the game. Those are mainly, tinkering with tactics, dealing and wheeling with transfers and player contracts and youth development. This is how I usually delegate tasks at my clubs.

This might be different for you, depending on what gives you enjoyment in the game. No matter what, it is still important to take a quick look at this screen before you progress to the next in-game day.

So that's it! Now that you had set up your basic tactic, saw who your key players are, signed a few staff and player contracts and delegated some more menial tasks, it is finally time to press that "Continue" button. And then we can jump into all the fun stuff like tactic testing and scouting.

 

 

Really nice stuff here. But you say you want 'fluid' football but you have 'structured' on the tactics creator?

[crusadertsar]

44 minutes ago, w_x said:

Really nice stuff here. But you say you want 'fluid' football but you have 'structured' on the tactics creator?

"Structured" or "fluid" on tactics creator screen is just a label. Had been like that since a few FM versions. Use "support" duty on all your players and you get a nice "very fluid" label. That's all it does. The label means nothing because your tactic could be ***** and not playing any kind of fluid football at all. Besides these days using all support duties is not a way forward because it makes for very stale football with no players trying to penetrate space or making attacking runs.

It's tthe complex combination of individual mentalities, roles and duties and the varying movements that produce real "fluid" football. Not by slapping "support" duty on all your roles.

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

7 hours ago, JonnyHughes said:

I've been giving this system a go with my Parma side and it plays some lovely football so far.

Only issue I'm having is the Complete Forward performances have been a little below par with only 2 goals in 7 from the main striker used in that role.

I do have a feeling it's down to the player not being a natural in the role just yet so it's something I'm going to monitor going forward

True. You will need a really good Complete Forward for this tactic to truly excell. The better the CF, the better the results. Again think someone like Brazilian Ronaldo ideally. Or Haaland if you want a modern example.

Edited November 12, 2022 by crusadertsar

[w_x]

57 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

"Structured" or "fluid" on tactics creator screen is just a label. Had been like that since a few FM versions. Use "support" duty on all your players and you get a nice "very fluid" label. That's all it does. The label means nothing because your tactic could be ***** and not playing any kind of fluid football at all. Besides these days using all support duties is not a way forward because it makes for very stale football with no players trying to penetrate space or making attacking runs.

It's tthe complex combination of individual mentalities, roles and duties and the varying movements that produce real "fluid" football. Not by slapping "support" duty on all your roles.

 

I usually play 'fluid' or 'very fluid' and i notice players filling positions of other players, etc. Does that happen on 'structured'

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, w_x said:

I usually play 'fluid' or 'very fluid' and i notice players filling positions of other players, etc. Does that happen on 'structured'

Yes of course. Again it depends what roles, duties and instructions you use. I don't care about the labels. 

[mikcheck]

@crusadertsarthis question isn't about this tactic in specific, but it reflects what is my thought, because your best players have an attack duty (Porro, Pote aka Pedro Gonçalves and Marcus). Do you think that an attack duty should be given to the most gifted and technical players, so they can expend their football at the fullest capacity?

Edited November 13, 2022 by mikcheck

[04texag]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Yes of course. Again it depends what roles, duties and instructions you use. I don't care about the labels. 

It also depends on the teamwork attribute. Guys with high teamwork, no matter the PRD can be very good at getting out of position to cover for others, or moving to the ball to support each other, etc.

[TheCheesemonger]

Loving this thread, especially the video of some Paulinho - Goncalves link up. I hope that in your save Paulinho gets a run in the first team. I had an SCP save last year and he was almost Harry Kane lite playing as a DLF alongside Goncalves as an AF and one of Edwards or Sarabia in the AMC slot. He's a fantastic support striker. 

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, mikcheck said:

@crusadertsarthis question isn't about this tactic in specific, but it reflects what is my thought, because your best players have an attack duty (Porro, Pote aka Pedro Gonçalves and Marcus). Do you think that an attack duty should be given to the most gifted and technical players, so they can expend their football at the fullest capacity?

There is no rule that Attack duty is only for elite players. I think probably what you see is best players on your team do better with attack duty than other less competent players. Its simply because attack duty increases risk taking behavior. And this can be a double-edged sword. If you give a mediocre player more freedom to take more risks then he might make some errors that have negative consequences on the match. While an elite player has better, more well-rounded attributes which make chance of serious errors lower while increasing the chance for positive events. So by matching this with attack duty, you are simply increasing his rate of taking risks which can make great results more likely. But can still lead to an error which can cost you the match. Its big risk, big reward kind of thing. 

[idrm1988]

Going to give this a go, I often don't take top division clubs straight away, anyone have suggestions who else this would suit (not necessarily Champions League clubs either) 

[JonnyHughes]

Regarding the Segundo Volante issue you had. I wonder if that's also a case of wrong personnel in your team, I retrained Adrian Bernabe to play there and he's done well for me so far on an Attack duty with the Dribble More player instruction. In fact the only tweak I've made to my team so far was to remove Sit Narrower from the Trequartista because I felt the player I had there Matias Soule wasn't getting involved enough.

[crusadertsar]

28 minutes ago, JonnyHughes said:

Regarding the Segundo Volante issue you had. I wonder if that's also a case of wrong personnel in your team, I retrained Adrian Bernabe to play there and he's done well for me so far on an Attack duty with the Dribble More player instruction. In fact the only tweak I've made to my team so far was to remove Sit Narrower from the Trequartista because I felt the player I had there Matias Soule wasn't getting involved enough.

Yeah I don't really have a player that's able to play SV role. I have a good RPM though, hence why I changed to that role. And seems to be doing rather well. 

[Kloppy]

any opp instructions?

[cmaddict]

This is my take on creating this style. The idea is to transition from 4-1-4-1 in defense to 2-3-5 in attack. You can clearly see how it happens in the second screenshot.

AM(A) is the main attacking outlet. DLF(A) roams around and IF(A) sits narrow to complete the core attacking threat. W(A) creates width on the left and CWB(A) on the right once we are in the opposition third.

I want to put 3 behind to pick up any loose balls, recycle possession and provide through balls. IWB(S) tucks in to complete the triangle with DM(S) and CM(S). DM(S) has hold position but still S to provide more forward play. CM(S) plays a key role in bringing the ball from the back.

What I enjoy the most is the variety in this setup. There is a different plan on each area of the field. 

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, Kloppy said:

any opp instructions?

Nope. Never use any.

[loisvale]

Very interesting read as always.

I have also started with Sporting, but I am using a 433. I have a high block, low block and mid block version depending on the scenario.

 

Wait till Tiago, Thomas comes back from loan. He is an absolute beast (although I play him as an advanced forward and taught move into channels trait) Unfortunately, I was unable to hold onto Ugarte as Man United made an offer that the board just accepted without any consultation! Won the league in year one as well as the league cup and got to the quarter-finals of the Champions League.

 

Really enjoying the save, particularly as they have a lot of young talent.

Very tempting to look into using your tactic, but I am enjoying the one I created too much at the moment.

 

Will continue to read with interest. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by loisvale

[jdubsnz]

@crusadertsarloving this thread, great read and thinking about incorporating this into my Arsenal save.  I'm just not sure what to do about the CWB role - don't think White or Tomiyasu have the right attributes. Could you flip the tactic to have Zinny as the CWB?

[crusadertsar]

31 minutes ago, jdubsnz said:

@crusadertsarloving this thread, great read and thinking about incorporating this into my Arsenal save.  I'm just not sure what to do about the CWB role - don't think White or Tomiyasu have the right attributes. Could you flip the tactic to have Zinny as the CWB?

Yeah of course you could flip to mirror the tactic. But then make sure to flip all the other roles. I don't think you even need asymmetric offset shadow striker. I'm not convinced on that. Testing without it and it seems not to make much difference. Player still finds plenty of space.

[jdubsnz]

9 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah of course you could flip to mirror the tactic. But then make sure to flip all the other roles. I don't think you even need asymmetric offset shadow striker. I'm not convinced on that. Testing without it and it seems not to make much difference. Player still finds plenty of space.

nice one. this is one of those classic 'my save is going well and no need to change but that idea over there looks really interesting!'.

do you use any PIs for the individual roles or are they just the standard settings?

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, jdubsnz said:

nice one. this is one of those classic 'my save is going well and no need to change but that idea over there looks really interesting!'.

do you use any PIs for the individual roles or are they just the standard settings?

I use a couple of PIs yes. Don't have the time to get into all of them now. But you could download my tactic a few posts up with all the PIs if you wish  Mind you, at your peril haha. Sometimes really not a good idea to change things when save is going well 

[jdubsnz]

apologies, didn't see the download link!  I'll have a look

[crusadertsar]

Sporting's 2nd Champions League game of the season, another beauty by Pedro Gonsalves! 

Also a really nice start to the play where we saw a short passing exchange between RPM Morita and BPD Inacio and BWM Ugarte. Culminating in the confidant forward drive by the BPD Inacio. All the way to the half-way line! Exactly what I want to see with our high defensive line. Then the beautiful goal by Gonsalves was the cherry on top. Here, enjoy the spectacle.

 

We ended up winning that game quite comfortably, against a tough Bayern side, as our defence took over for the rest of the match.

Gonsalves now has 8 goals in all competitions while using the tactic. And we are barely out of September. What a player!

Edited November 15, 2022 by crusadertsar

[The3points]

Pedro G is absolutely a great player: he never stops scoring against my Braga side. Always with clever movement into the halfspaces in transition, always making a 3rd midfielder in buildup. He's like playing against a 12th player

[NilsFreedhom]

The movements of the Shadow Striker this year are awesome and, as always, you created a beautiful system! Wow!

[crusadertsar]

9 minutes ago, The3points said:

Pedro G is absolutely a great player: he never stops scoring against my Braga side. Always with clever movement into the halfspaces in transition, always making a 3rd midfielder in buildup. He's like playing against a 12th player

He is the perfect Shadow Striker. @NilsFreedhom Rewatching that clip, I am just amazed with how well the Shadow Striker role moves in this year's ME. Especially how Pedro starts sprinting forward into space and beyond Bayern's defence just at the perfect moment when the ball leaves the Treq Marcus' foot. What timing!

Edited November 15, 2022 by crusadertsar

[Honecker]

Hey! Just wanted to say thanks for this very inspirational thread. 10/10 so far.

I've been playing a simpler version of your tactic in my Red Star FC save, in the French 3rd division. Even though the attributes are lacking and I lost my SS early on due to injury and had to retrain a winger to a more central role, we've been steamrolling the opposition. With 10 games to go, we're undefeated (W:22 D:2 L:0), with 68 points and a GD of +48.

I'm not in a position to really take advantage of this tactic (no money = no transfers ), but it's a talented and diverse squad with a good mix of youth and experience, and enough depth for this level. I had to make the CF a DLF on support and lose the Trequartista, but offensive play is still very free flowing and creative. And the SV works really well (surprisingly well at this level (o_O ), seems crazy but it works). Best part is the SS though. I always play with Comprehensive Highlights and the way he moves this year is great. If he is unmarked, he usually scores, if he's marked he drops deep or wide and opens it up for the other attackers. 

The other teams have resorted to parking the bus against us after the winter break, but it doesn't seem to matter. I started to train the team to work the ball into the box when they need to, and it just melts the opposition defences.

Looking forward to hearing more about your save and tactic!

Edited November 15, 2022 by Honecker
typo

[sugarbear0511]

On 14/11/2022 at 16:48, crusadertsar said:

I use a couple of PIs yes. Don't have the time to get into all of them now. But you could download my tactic a few posts up with all the PIs if you wish  Mind you, at your peril haha. Sometimes really not a good idea to change things when save is going well 

I must be blind because I can't find the link. Do you mind posting it again? I'm curious to try this with newcastle where I'm about to start the 2nd season.

EDITED: nvm I found it!

I'm also looking at signing marcus edwards but in my save apparently he doesn't like big matches which  

Edited November 16, 2022 by sugarbear0511

[zindrinho]

On 12/11/2022 at 22:55, w_x said:

I usually play 'fluid' or 'very fluid' and i notice players filling positions of other players, etc. Does that happen on 'structured'

The fluidity of fluid setups refers to how set the roles are. With a wide man on Attack and his full back/wb on support the winger will always(*) be the one who tries to run into space and attack. If you have both your winger and wb/fb on support they will switch up more, one will hold position while the other makes the run. WBs on attack will always run towards the byline, very structured and a one-track-mind instruction. a FB on support will run towards the byline, or just offer width, or even make underlaps as he sees fit. very fluid. This is why you can no longer set "fluid" or "structured" yourself, you choose fluid or structured based on the roles you pick.

[sugarbear0511]

does team fluidity have a significant effect on how the team perform? I really don't pay enough attention to it, maybe I should.

[crusadertsar]

22 hours ago, sugarbear0511 said:

does team fluidity have a significant effect on how the team perform? I really don't pay enough attention to it, maybe I should.

No it doesn't. In the game fluidity is just a label, denoting how many support roles are in your tactic. I have had both structured and very fluid tactics that performed well. What actually matters is how your roles and duties mesh together. You could have the most fluid tactic in the world (have every role on support duty) and it could be $hite just because your shape or the combination of roles are no good. 

[Sarriball14]

On 15/11/2022 at 01:50, crusadertsar said:

He is the perfect Shadow Striker. @NilsFreedhom Rewatching that clip, I am just amazed with how well the Shadow Striker role moves in this year's ME. Especially how Pedro starts sprinting forward into space and beyond Bayern's defence just at the perfect moment when the ball leaves the Treq Marcus' foot. What timing!

Love this thread! How are you getting on so far? I’ve nearly made it through to the end of January and somehow kept hold of ugarte, Pedro G and Coates despite relentless bidding from big clubs for them. Won’t accept anything less than their buy out clauses! Joint top with benfica on points, knocked out of champions league on head to head to head but made it into the Europa. 
 

any advice for the games against the big 2 in the league and away from home in Europe? do you make any changes to tactic ?

[sugarbear0511]

@crusadertsar I just want to say thank you for this beautiful tactic. I'm trying it out right now and while only been trying it out for pre-season friendlies the tactic is playing some beautiful football!

Here is my best XI:

the team is still trying to get familiar with this tactic since we're switching from a 442 diamond high press system. I'm hoping for a good season!

Edited November 18, 2022 by sugarbear0511

[jondragonborn]

Very nice thread, @crusadertsar! Thanks for sharing.

As a Brazilian myself, I always had the idea that Rivelino kind of played in a Wide Playmaker on Attack. I mean, more or less. Thats one of the kind of role thats purely regional and FM cant quite work with right now. In my view (I'm not representing the country in anyway), I always saw Rivelino as a "meia esquerda", a kind of playmaker in the left that didnt went wide and neither occupy the Zone 14.

In defense, that role would try to "close in" either in the flanks or the half space, if necessary. That role kind of start out wide, but went inside, however, can also make the reverse movement in the middle of the game. Try to imagine a son between the Carrillero and the Wide Playmaker. Thats how I see it, at least.

The last player that interpreted that role very well was Ricardinho at the 2002 Corinthians team. Parreira (who won the World Cup in 94) set up the team in a unconventional way, setting up a very strong flank game. By the left, the team had the "meia esquerda", a natural born left-footed winger (Gil) and a bombing Wing Back (Kleber). The three were super technical players and made a very strong overload by that side. Corinthians went to win the regional championship and the Brazilian Cup that year, besides being runner-up in the National League (losing to a Santos side with "only" Robinho, Diego Ribas and Elano).

So, I believe is worth trying the Wide Playmaker on Attack sometimes. Maybe that could give you a spice. However, I dont know how that would work with the Shadow Striker...

Edited November 19, 2022 by jondragonborn

[crusadertsar]

20 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

Love this thread! How are you getting on so far? I’ve nearly made it through to the end of January and somehow kept hold of ugarte, Pedro G and Coates despite relentless bidding from big clubs for them. Won’t accept anything less than their buy out clauses! Joint top with benfica on points, knocked out of champions league on head to head to head but made it into the Europa. 
 

any advice for the games against the big 2 in the league and away from home in Europe? do you make any changes to tactic ?

Not doing too shabby over here too. Edging into November and haven't lost any games in the league yet. 

And speaking of playing against the other Big Two in Portugal, the recent highlight was our win against Benfica.

We kind of dismantled them. Was actually surprised, as I did not think it would be that easy. Gonsalves didn't manage to score any but Marcus came up strong with his creative play through the middle in a new AMC role. Haha, so you can see I am making some adjustments to my tactic for those tough games against teams that are equal or better than me such as Benfica or competition in the Champions League. It might be my attempt to channel the spirit of 2002 World Cup. Scolari's more pragmatic Brazilian team. 

It is still a new experiment so there are definitely some teething pains. It didnt save us in Champions League. Knocked out in Group stage. But hopefully will do better in Europa. Eventhough its my secondary formation right now, it's an interesting tactic that I would love to explore more. Maybe I will write about it soon 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by crusadertsar

[sugarbear0511]

So after 3 games in I'm convinced this is THE BEST attacking tactic. Look at the amount of possession this tactic manage to achieve!

I know I have 3 clean sheets but i do notice that this is because Pope pulled some amazing save as you can see in his rating in the community shield game vs liverpool and the derby match vs middlesbrough. The defense does give up quite a bit of ground to the opponents and still there are some through balls that should have been goals conceded. I'm lucky enough to have a good keeper and a solid CB pair (Bastoni + Antonio Silva/Scalvini). I'm thinking maybe the tactic could be pressing a bit more so we can win the ball higher up the pitch maybe? @crusadertsarHow did you set up your defense in your 3 back formation?

Edited November 19, 2022 by sugarbear0511

[jdubsnz]

have gotten some pretty decent results from this, liking how it plays.  Playing with Arsenal so made a mirror version so Zinny could be the CWB.  To mix things up in game I have a version where the striker is either CF(s) or DLF (s), and either play with an RPM or SV in midfield (currently preferring the SV).  Also sometimes have the IW and T switching positions.  Here's the results so far:

I'm finding it difficult to get the striker to do much in this formation though.  Jesus is mostly getting 6.5 per game.  I might try a DLF(a) and see if that makes a difference. @crusadertsar how have your strikers been performing?

**this has also inspired me to have a go at a Magic Box formation to throw into the mix as well

[crusadertsar]

@sugarbear0511 @jdubsnz Nice results with both Newcastle and Arsenal! Good to see that this tactic applies well in a more physical league like Premiership. I have only tested it in the more technical Portugal so far (up to Jan 2023 so far) so thanks for extending testing into other leagues guys. 

I have only made minor tweaks to the tactic so far. I find its best not to make big changes when you are doing well. We were a little disappointing in Europe (as I mentioned earlier) but then we faced tougher opposition there. Overall, I am still very happy with it. Especially how my players are performing. My faves so far have been the Shadow Striker (not surprising), Treq and Complete Forward.

Pedro G., the Shadow Striker, has been phenomenal. Scored 15 goals in 18 games. Not bad for a player who starts every game in AMC position. 

I am trying to enjoy him while I can because his success has made him reluctant to resign his contract. But at least we have until 2026 to find a replacement for him. Unless someone triggers his £70 million release clause that is.

Then Marcus, the Trequartista, has also been a revelation as a very creative role on the wing. 11 assists in 18 games so far. 

Speaking of my Complete Forward. Francisco Trincao has been very good on support duty in that role. He is actually my 2nd top goalscorer (with 10 goals). I am not sure whether it is due to his attribute combination or the individual traits ("shoots from distance" combined with good long shots attribute). He does score a few scorchers from outside the penalty area from time to time. But he is not amazing. And his attributes are definitely not as good as Gabriel Jesus. So maybe its something about Jesus' traits or other players around him? 

I have not really tested DLF(A) that much because Paulinho is my player for that role but he is more of sub to our #1 choice Trincao.

 

And this is what my tactic looks like on Jan 1, 2023. A few tweaks but mostly the same. I made some changes to our pressing instructions which you could see in the download below.

Brazilian.fmf

We remain undefeated in the league. I hope we can maintain that throughout 2023 as I have never had an undefeated season in any FM game to date. Being out of the Cup competition will hopefully help us in that respect. It was never a priority but drained our fitness levels nevertheless. Will be interesting to test the tactic in Europa League though. 

 

@sugarbear0511 This is my experimental 3-4-2-1 formation. Only used it for a handfull of games so far, as I am a little wary to switch to a tactic that my team is not familiar with. Even for AWAY games I tend to do well with my original 4-2-3-1. But you are welcome to try it out. Might fit your team better. Download: 3-4-2-1.fmf

@jdubsnz Magic Box is a great tactic! In fact my narrow 3-4-2-1 was somewhat inspired by it. At least the way Scolari played it at 2002 World Cup.

Edited November 20, 2022 by crusadertsar

[sugarbear0511]

I just take a quick look at the tweaked brazilian tactic (brazilian V2) and actually even though the tweak seemed subtle I think the tactic will play out quite different than the original one especially because now the team will play much wider. I will try it out in my next couple of games. The 4321 is really interesting although I can see that the team will need a very fast, strong and skillful forward just like OG Ronaldo, probably Haaland or Osimhen.

[crusadertsar]

20 minutes ago, sugarbear0511 said:

I just take a quick look at the tweaked brazilian tactic (brazilian V2) and actually even though the tweak seemed subtle I think the tactic will play out quite different than the original one especially because now the team will play much wider. I will try it out in my next couple of games. The 4321 is really interesting although I can see that the team will need a very fast, strong and skillful forward just like OG Ronaldo, probably Haaland or Osimhen.

Yeah definitely, my current choice of forwards will not suit that role very well. Probably the reason why 3-4-2-1 is nothing special. OG Ronaldo was half the reason why it did so well for Brazil during 2002 World Cup.

[NilsFreedhom]

8 ore fa, crusadertsar ha scritto:

@sugarbear0511 @jdubsnz Nice results with both Newcastle and Arsenal! Good to see that this tactic applies well in a more physical league like Premiership. I have only tested it in the more technical Portugal so far (up to Jan 2023 so far) so thanks for extending testing into other leagues guys. 

I have only made minor tweaks to the tactic so far. I find its best not to make big changes when you are doing well. We were a little disappointing in Europe (as I mentioned earlier) but then we faced tougher opposition there. Overall, I am still very happy with it. Especially how my players are performing. My faves so far have been the Shadow Striker (not surprising), Treq and Complete Forward.

Pedro G., the Shadow Striker, has been phenomenal. Scored 15 goals in 18 games. Not bad for a player who starts every game in AMC position. 

I am trying to enjoy him while I can because his success has made him reluctant to resign his contract. But at least we have until 2026 to find a replacement for him. Unless someone triggers his £70 million release clause that is.

Then Marcus, the Trequartista, has also been a revelation as a very creative role on the wing. 11 assists in 18 games so far. 

Speaking of my Complete Forward. Francisco Trincao has been very good on support duty in that role. He is actually my 2nd top goalscorer (with 10 goals). I am not sure whether it is due to his attribute combination or the individual traits ("shoots from distance" combined with good long shots attribute). He does score a few scorchers from outside the penalty area from time to time. But he is not amazing. And his attributes are definitely not as good as Gabriel Jesus. So maybe its something about Jesus' traits or other players around him? 

I have not really tested DLF(A) that much because Paulinho is my player for that role but he is more of sub to our #1 choice Trincao.

 

And this is what my tactic looks like on Jan 1, 2023. A few tweaks but mostly the same. I made some changes to our pressing instructions which you could see in the download below.

Brazilian.fmf 45.35 kb  · 20 downloads

We remain undefeated in the league. I hope we can maintain that throughout 2023 as I have never had an undefeated season in any FM game to date. Being out of the Cup competition will hopefully help us in that respect. It was never a priority but drained our fitness levels nevertheless. Will be interesting to test the tactic in Europa League though. 

 

@sugarbear0511 This is my experimental 3-4-2-1 formation. Only used it for a handfull of games so far, as I am a little wary to switch to a tactic that my team is not familiar with. Even for AWAY games I tend to do well with my original 4-2-3-1. But you are welcome to try it out. Might fit your team better. Download: 3-4-2-1.fmf

@jdubsnz Magic Box is a great tactic! In fact my narrow 3-4-2-1 was somewhat inspired by it. At least the way Scolari played it at 2002 World Cup.

You and tour threads are a truly inspiration! The ability you have to achieve what you have in mind is unmatched! 
 

[Flußkrebs]

Just thought I'd drop this here as The Athletic have just released a bunch of historical data stuff for past world cups as prat of their coverage. 

Here was the pass map for the 1970 World Cup final:

 

Backs up your formation I'd say, only thing is that they completely bypassed the centre backs and progressed the ball via the full backs. Whilst Piazza did pass it out to Everaldo, the value was very low.

Anyway, just something of interest!

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Flußkrebs said:

Just thought I'd drop this here as The Athletic have just released a bunch of historical data stuff for past world cups as prat of their coverage. 

Here was the pass map for the 1970 World Cup final:

 

Backs up your formation I'd say, only thing is that they completely bypassed the centre backs and progressed the ball via the full backs. Whilst Piazza did pass it out to Everaldo, the value was very low.

Anyway, just something of interest!

That's really cool. Yup, looks like 4-2-3-1! Thanks for sharing 

I'm just amazed they were even collecting this kind of data back then.

Edited November 21, 2022 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Flußkrebs said:

Just thought I'd drop this here as The Athletic have just released a bunch of historical data stuff for past world cups as prat of their coverage. 

Here was the pass map for the 1970 World Cup final:

 

Backs up your formation I'd say, only thing is that they completely bypassed the centre backs and progressed the ball via the full backs. Whilst Piazza did pass it out to Everaldo, the value was very low.

Anyway, just something of interest!

Also good to see the positions of the two centrebacks. Brito was really a traditional stopper while Piazza stayed back to cover and was more prolific in his passing. He was really a retrained midfielder who embraced the Ballplaying Defender role. You can see there was a passing link-up between him and left side fullback. Not major though. As you said 1970 Brazil was not as interested in patient build-up from the back. Which is something I tried to reflect in my tactic. They were closer to Klopp's Liverpool than Pep's Man City. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by crusadertsar