jondragonborn

I agree with you, Nine Cloud Nine and De Nile. Your comments are great food thought and I'll reflect upon them. Thank you very much!

You made a great point. However, I want to try to explain my point a little further. My take is that we have a tendency to put our #10 at the AMC role because "there where he should be". But the initial formation, the formation we set up at the tactics view, is a initial setup. The "starting point". We used to see, lets say, Zidane occupying the AMC strata, but he didnt started there. He wasnt there before, static. He moved there during the play. We get the idea that he was always there because he occupied that space often and decisively, but he got there during attacking movement. So, my take its that even the classics #10 didnt sat at the AMC spot waiting the ball. Therefore, my view is that we need to put our #10 to move to the Zone 14 when we are attacking, so he can act there. When we put the player initially at the AMC spot, he will move from there or be marked out of the game. Thats, in my view, why we cant seem to get the classic #10 working at the AMC strata. But if we put our 10 at a different starting point, in a role and with instructions that will move him to the hole behind the strikers, then whats the difference from a classic #10? He will receive the ball at the Zone 14, he will decide the game there.

Thanks! I will update after a few seasons of testing in different environments I play in a 5-3-2 right know. Wingback -Central Defender-Central Defender-Central Defender-Wingback. The CD at centre its on Cover duty. That makes him a Sweeper that cleans through balls. The other two are on Block duty, they defend the front of the area. However, one side effect of putting my #10 at the CM slot its that now I have a kind of "screen" at the front of my box. They kind of block the way and naturally makes the other team play wide. Then my Sweeper clean crosses and long balls. Its a 7/10 system, to be honest. Its working nice, but could've be better.

Adding to the others replies, you need to create the conditions on the field for the player to execute that instruction. For instance: Dribble More. That PI says to player that he needs to carry the ball more. But you put him in a position that he receives the ball coming deep. He wont have many opportunities to dribble, right? Hes back getting the ball, then he turns, then he starts to move. If you put "short pass" and "higher tempo" as TI, by the time he turns and finally can dribble, he have to pass the ball. So context matter. Think like that: When the player need to execute that instruction? What is he doing now that prevents that instruction to work? Another example. Lets say you instruct your CM to Shoot Less. However, your team plays on Attack and you arent being able to get in the box. Eventually, your CM gets the ball at Zone 14, the opposition well set up at defense, your team not being able to penetrate inside the box. He will shoot. If your "problem" is cronic, then you will see him shooting the ball 5 times per game and will have the impression that he shoots all the time, but the problem is that this action its the only one he can take.

Hi guys. As most of you, I grew up watching phenomenal players playing the Classic #10 role. Legends like Zidane, Riquelme, Deco (at Porto), Rui Costa, Totti, Alex de Souza and Rivaldo. However, it seems to be a a norm to say that "Nowadays, theres no space for the Classic #10". In a way, its true. The Classic #10 (meaning a playmaking genius that makes "team-mates sprang into life around the player, anticipating knife-through-butter killer balls and deft touches to open up defences", as said in this FootballTimes article) has vanished. He was moved to a #8 spot (think Iniesta, De Bruyne or Xavi) or to the #5 spot (Xabi, Pirlo, Thiago). But that its real life. What about Football Manager? Its easy to find topics complaining about the "#10 role" by browsing around this forum (or others). The consensus seems to be: "Theres no way to play with a Classic #10. The AMC spot its a dead zone. The better you can get its a Shadow Striker that steps to score in the box". However, I think theres 2 things we can change to bring the Classic #10 back. 1) Lower the tempo 90% of tactics made for FM24 are with Higher or Much Higher tempo. Whats the problem here? Higher Tempo = Less time to think Less time to think = Less time to move to be open Less time to move = Easier to mark your AMC out of the game After I started to lower the tempo of my tactis, I started to see more movements from my players. Why? Because now they have more time to move. Instructions like "Roam from Position" work better that way. And no, your team does not get "predictable", its the other way around. 2) Change the position of your Classic #10 Heres the thing: the initial position of yours players are the "defensive position" they will adopt during game. If your #10 is at the AMC Slot, he will defend there. But he'll not necessarially attack from there. Players move during attack. So, your Classic #10 needs to be at the AMC when attacking, he dont need to start the play there. When we lower the tempo, we get more time to put our player there. "Ok, but thats theory. What about practice?". Right now, I'm testing these concepts in practice and I got some nice results to show. Heres how I'm setting up my midfield for my Classic #10: Fausto Vera and Maycon are my support players. They help my team to defend and work the ball at the midfield. Coronado its my Classic #01. Why I choose him? He got pass, vision, flair, technique and agility at 16 and 17. So, he got the technical side of a classic 10: he can pass, hes unpredictable, great tecnique and creativity. He also got decent stats at Decision, Antecipation, Composure, Off the Ball and Teamwork. So, hes not individualist and he can read the game and make good decisions at a decent rate. Could be better, sure, but hes great. I play him at Advanced Playmaker - Attack, but on the CM Slot. Why? He can help my team when we are building the game (although I'm testing some alternatives, like putting the Libero on Support to ease up the buildup) He often moves to the AMC slot during the game. He receives the ball constantly there He can step the box to shoot, which its a great bonus Also, I instruct him to Roam from Position. That way, he can escape easily from DMs and get free more often. This is what Coronado made at my last 2 games: Assist Look how the "Roam from Position" works well. He gets the ball at the corner of the Zone 14 to brilliant make the assist. Assist Key Pass Important: All of this was made at only 2 GAMES. Its not a highlights from the season, but from 2 games only. In this 2 games, Coronado made 9 Key Passes (he played 135 minutes) and 4 assists (1 was from a corner). He played as a Classic #10. He gave our Advanced Forward (Yuri Alberto) open looks, he set up plays, he was amazing all around. Watching the game, he really played as a Classic #10. "Its the tactic perfect?" Right now, no. I'm still testing. We have problems at the back and in the building up. Right now, I'm testing a Libero on Support to ease up the building up and free the #10 even more. Also, I'm testing up other partnes at the midfield and the possible strikers to get the most out of Coronado. "It will only work with the Advanced Playmaker?" I dont think so. I'm willing to test the CM-Att as well. Even other roles, maybe. "It will work 100% of times?" No idea. These are still concepts I'm developing. I believe we can put a Classic #10 to work. I'm very happy with initial results and will update this thread when I find out more.

Yep, theres why its always mentioned that we should be careful tinkering with player mentality and instructions. Its not always clear what everything does. For instance, if you want your team to attempt more risky passes without rushing forward, then your team mentality shouldnt be positive. A positive team mentality = your team will get the ball and start attacking. Lets say, for instance, your team has a Attacking Winger. He should get to the byline and cross to the area. Thats his play. If your team gets the ball back and the dude its open, its very likely a positive mentality team will try to pass to him. Yout team get the ball and think "Lets go attack. How we do it?". If the dude its open and its a viable option, the ball goes to him. Now, lets say you want to play like OP. Wants to buid up play more careful. At that exact situation, your team mentality should be negative (Cautious or less). That way, when the team gets the ball, you will regroup, make safe passes, get out of the pressing and build up play to attack with more control. If you still want to attempt risky passes at that stage, the best option is to create a build-up plan to free up a creator role (like a mezzala, AP, etc) with the PI Try more risky passes. When the ball gets to him, he'll be making these penetrative passes.

Yeah, sorry, I havent realized you wanted to play like them. What I had understand is that you wanted to shift the opposition to one side and the explore the open space at the other. In my opinion, the regista is the better dude to explore that space quickly, but if that doesnt make sense to your game plan, then he wont work for you. An Half-back, DLP-DE or even DLP-Support can work better. Basically, any DM role that you could tinker to make short passes is the best option.

Someone once explains here in this forum a little rule I always apply: As the player mentality increase, his width of view decreases. Think of a player with a 360º degree view. He can look forward, backwards and sideways. Therefore, he can pass in any direction. Then, reduce his width of view to 180º. Now he can pass sideways and forwards (also, at diagonals). Now, reduce his width of view to 45º. He can pass forwards and diagonals. Thats more or less what happens with players mentalities. If your players are attacking, they will only see forward. By your tactic, your team have a Positive mentality and most of your players have Support Roles. That put their mentality a little bit forward. They get the ball and think to go ahead. What I would do, first and foremost, would be to decrease the Positive mentality to Cautious. Then, I would watch a game at least at compreensive mode. But, I would try to watch it full. You will see if they do that backwards passes you want. After that, I would try to put a little bit more of dynamism in their passes with some changes. For instance, if you put a Regista at DM, he will act like a "pendulum". He will get close to the players on each flank, get the ball and make a long pass to the other side. Thats a good place to start: Change team mentality to Cautious See game at full time mode Try Regista at DM (specially with "Like to switch flanks" PPM Try to make Fullbacks get forward, but not hold the ball to much

Thats a fantastic project. I, myself, tried to implement some kind of "functional attack" after reading József Bozsik's texts. I wasnt very successful. I've learned somethings that I can share with you, perhaps can help you out. - The match engine doesnt seems prepared for that kind of football. It seems more prepared for the positional play. - Players on support naturally try to make more associations. However, you need to use roles that are hardwire to go "pick up the ball". The regista does exactly that. I tried the Trequartista upfront, but the "Attack-only" option was a obstacle in making associations. DLF-S always get back, which is nice to associate. RPM probably does as well, but I didnt tried. Players on attack are constantly trying to push the line. Also, they always get the ball and think forward, which doesnt really allow to the overload happen and cuts everyone behind him from the play. - We can simulate some of the actions by micromanagement (which is kind of the opposite of the "brazilian idea", but it works). For instance, I found out that less team instructions is good, because it allows the Players Instructions to shine. I use "shorter passing" to every role except the ones that more commonly will try the "breakout passes". I instruct them to play "normal" on passes ranges. I also instruct every player except defenders to "shoot less". This allow to more one-twos close to the box. I now get once every 5 or 6 games one of those goals where the two strikers exchange passes in front of the goalkeeper to an open goal. - Individual traits are you best friends, especially if you use few Team Instructions. I found out that come deep to get the ball is good to every support position upfront. It makes the player come near for association if a player behind him has the ball - Try to "plan" the way for the ball. For instance, your DM will likely try to pass to a Wing Back or Fullback. Its easier to pass to the flanks when building up. But, then, you need someone on the central flanks for the player on the flank to pass on. - A very useful Team Instruction that I notice is Cross Early instead of working the ball into the box. I found out that Crossing Early allows the team to enjoy some runs the forward is making.

In my experience playing FM, I notice somethings: When we create too many chances, the match engine seems to "punish us". My view is that they probably do this so to prevent us to exploit some flaw and win games by 20 - 0. I say that, for example, based on the success of strikerless tactic some years ago. Back then, these tactics exploit some flaws in the game and constantly the players end up 1 - 1 with the keeper. However, from 7, 8 1-on-1 shots, they scored 2, 3 at most. This is not confirmed by the developers, but its what I experienced playing the game. The most important attributs arent the technical ones (finishing, for instance). It seems to me that the mentals are most important. I dont have data to confirm this, but its my impression. I had players with 19 finishing that didnt score 10 goals in a season and players with 12, 11, that scored 30, 40 goals. The finishing trait of the player also matters. In my personal experience: players that have "shoot with power" score more goals. But, again, I dont have data to back this up. Its just my experience. Players with the PI "shoot less often" also seems to score more in my personal experience. Again: dont have data, but its what I've experienced. I think that they probable take only the better chances, what make the game flow a little better and allow for better opportunities? I dont know.

Thanks for your reply. I'm gonna try theses suggestions. Most of them I tried already, but I think not at the same time. Unfortunately, I dont have many players with these traits, but I think I'm gonna have to try to develop them with my young gems. My tactic does have one playmaker (I chose a regista because he can make a lot of horizontal moves and is always going where the ball is, so he naturally provides the kind of movement I want), but I'm gonna try to play without it to see how it goes. Thanks again! Thanks for your reply! Hm, I see. My team has good players with these attributes, but only for Brazilian level. I'm mean, I can work with dudes like Renato Augusto, Giuliano, Luan, Yuri Alberto, Roger Guedes, Fausto Vera, Paulinho. They are in the range of 13-16 in almost all of these attributes, but maybe thats not good enough. I'm gonna follow your input and start a test save with Man City to see if that makes some difference, thanks! Thanks for the reply! These resources seem great! I'm gonna give this thread a read and try this tactic on FM23 to see how it works at the current match engine and what I can learn from it. Thank you very much! Like you said, my current tactic its full of support roles. I think I have only one guy attacking and its my fullback, if I'm not mistaken. I also think that I have a lot to learn about role sinergies and how to make good combos around the field. Interesting, these are great inputs. My tactic does have "Play out of Defence", that could explain some of the problems I'm facing. I think I also have Overlaps, so I'm gonna tick off these 2 instructions. Thanks!

I want to create a tactic that doesnt play "Positional football", however, I cant do it. I think I dont quite understand the Players Instructions and the Team Instructions. What I want to do: I want the players to come near the ball when we are building up the game. Also, I dont want the players holding position at the channels or providing width when I'm attacking. "But these are the good principles of football" - Good principles of (positional) football. I dont want that. "But its not gonna work" - Fine, not a problem. I'm trying to see if it works, but my problem is that I cant seem to do this. If end up dont working, fine. But, at least, I would like to see it happen. It doesnt matter how I build the tactic, the players are always providing width and attacking the channels, instead of coming near the ball. An example: My team is the white one, we have the ball. Right before the screenshot, #24 passed the ball to #4. See the position of numbers #11, #7 and (in lesser extent) #8. What I would love to see is #11 and #7 to came down and see a proper line of pass for the build up. Kind of making a "ladder". Something like that: In this edit I made, the #11 is way behind, while #7 is also behind and a little more centralized. That way, they form a "diagonal line of pass", so we can quickly break the line and come up with something dangerous. In this case in particular, #11 is playing as Attacking Midfield - Support and #7 is Deep Lying Forward - Support. My thought: players on attack will try to push the backline. So, I'd put my team on "balanced mentality" and my offensive players on support duties. That way, they should came deep to get the ball. But that dont happen. Besides that, I'd like to see my team playing with a "approximation approach". Meaning: when one player has the ball, at least 2 of them should present themselves to play. One should be a safe pass, other should be a pass to break the line. However, my players insist to hold position or to push the opposition's backline. So, how can I put my vision to work? Thats being: How can I make my players come near the ball in the building up?

Guys, I want to manage a underdog team. My goal is to set up a tactic that solid in defense and great at counter attacks. Also, I want to play with a strong Target Forward as my main goal threat. I got one of the tallest and strongest strikers in the league and want to take advantage of that. What can you'll recomend? Any video or guide that could help guide me through that?

I would try to stretch the field horizontally. 2 wingers stepping in the sidelines. 1 central strikers 2 runners coming from deep charging the channels. 1 holding midfielder to distribute the passes 2 inverted wing backs to compose the midfield. This way, you are attacking all 5 lines. Also, as you are having 70% possession, you can play this kind of game with no problem. You can even remove a wingback and put another striker (one that comes deep to mess with the defending line). Then, you set up your defense with 3 dudes, two of them wide centerbacks to hold off counters. After you score, you can get back to a backline with 4.

Very nice thread, @crusadertsar! Thanks for sharing. As a Brazilian myself, I always had the idea that Rivelino kind of played in a Wide Playmaker on Attack. I mean, more or less. Thats one of the kind of role thats purely regional and FM cant quite work with right now. In my view (I'm not representing the country in anyway), I always saw Rivelino as a "meia esquerda", a kind of playmaker in the left that didnt went wide and neither occupy the Zone 14. In defense, that role would try to "close in" either in the flanks or the half space, if necessary. That role kind of start out wide, but went inside, however, can also make the reverse movement in the middle of the game. Try to imagine a son between the Carrillero and the Wide Playmaker. Thats how I see it, at least. The last player that interpreted that role very well was Ricardinho at the 2002 Corinthians team. Parreira (who won the World Cup in 94) set up the team in a unconventional way, setting up a very strong flank game. By the left, the team had the "meia esquerda", a natural born left-footed winger (Gil) and a bombing Wing Back (Kleber). The three were super technical players and made a very strong overload by that side. Corinthians went to win the regional championship and the Brazilian Cup that year, besides being runner-up in the National League (losing to a Santos side with "only" Robinho, Diego Ribas and Elano). So, I believe is worth trying the Wide Playmaker on Attack sometimes. Maybe that could give you a spice. However, I dont know how that would work with the Shadow Striker...