[FM24] [WIP] Iron Curtain 1988 - If you rebuild it, it will come.

[Wolf_pd]

Anyone who knows how to properly make a team go bankrupt (or something close?) Barcelona needs some tough love...

[YugoParty]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Wolf_pd:

Anyone who knows how to properly make a team go bankrupt (or something close?) Barcelona needs some tough love...

There was a youtuber who lets played as a bankrupt barca. He used a custom database too. He explained how he did it. I dont know the video anymore but i think if you search on the topic you will find it

[Wolf_pd]

Found it. Let's see how he does it

[Wolf_pd]

First batch of foreigners is done. No foreign players left in China anymore. It went a bit slower than I expected, but I guess I am a bit rusty with that 

[Wolf_pd]

Ok, I have an idea.

For most teams removing foreign players is easy. At lower levels they are not allowed so are moved anyway. At higher levels they are limited, but apart from a few nations (looking at you England, Spain and Italy) it is just a bit of work to pick who stays and who goes. So, that's where you come in. Every few days I will post a teamname and you can suggest which foreign players stay with the team. If you have reasons why a certain player should stay even better.

So for instance, I would post Manchester City, 3 foreigners (as there are 3 foreigners allowed in England) and it is up to you to suggest who stays and who gets moved. All suggestions will be gathered and depending on the amount of mentions for a player he stays at the team or he goes home.

[TokyoWanderer]

En 9/8/2022 a las 14:45, Wolf_pd dijo:

Ok, I have an idea.

For most teams removing foreign players is easy. At lower levels they are not allowed so are moved anyway. At higher levels they are limited, but apart from a few nations (looking at you England, Spain and Italy) it is just a bit of work to pick who stays and who goes. So, that's where you come in. Every few days I will post a teamname and you can suggest which foreign players stay with the team. If you have reasons why a certain player should stay even better.

So for instance, I would post Manchester City, 3 foreigners (as there are 3 foreigners allowed in England) and it is up to you to suggest who stays and who gets moved. All suggestions will be gathered and depending on the amount of mentions for a player he stays at the team or he goes home.

I'd recommend keeping the 3 players with the highest CA if it helps you move along

[Wolf_pd]

5 hours ago, TokyoWanderer said:

I'd recommend keeping the 3 players with the highest CA if it helps you move along

That does make sense, although with the collections the rich teams gather might nog be the best bet.

Also, something I did not mention, but would be realistic is that even if a young player has a high CA, he is less likely to be transferred as all teams would be gunning for proven commodities.

[Wolf_pd]

Question for @anitamuiabout Hong Kong.

You said that there are no foreign players allowed to play in Hong Kong, I have processed that. Are Hong Kong players allowed to play outside Hong Kong though?

[anitamui]

在 2022/8/13 在 AM4点53分, Wolf_pd说:

Question for @anitamuiabout Hong Kong.

You said that there are no foreign players allowed to play in Hong Kong, I have processed that. Are Hong Kong players allowed to play outside Hong Kong though?

it is allowed,but since the Hong Kong Players are generally considered bad,there is no case of HKGers playing in hong kong during the 3 years of No Foreigners era in HKG.

[Jorgen]

On 09/08/2022 at 19:45, Wolf_pd said:

Ok, I have an idea.

For most teams removing foreign players is easy. At lower levels they are not allowed so are moved anyway. At higher levels they are limited, but apart from a few nations (looking at you England, Spain and Italy) it is just a bit of work to pick who stays and who goes. So, that's where you come in. Every few days I will post a teamname and you can suggest which foreign players stay with the team. If you have reasons why a certain player should stay even better.

So for instance, I would post Manchester City, 3 foreigners (as there are 3 foreigners allowed in England) and it is up to you to suggest who stays and who gets moved. All suggestions will be gathered and depending on the amount of mentions for a player he stays at the team or he goes home.

But what do you want to do with players that must be removed?
Release on a free? Or send them back to a previous team? If send back, then to which team? The most recent previous team? The team where their youth or professional careers started? A team they impacted the most? The last team with the right nationality?

Are Britisch (but non English) players allowed to stay at Man Utd?

I find this a tough, but interesing question.

I would look at a few things to decide if a player is removed:
1. Everyone that has not made an impact yet, because they've played less than 3 years, or less then 100 matches for the club (or anything else of your liking)
2. Everyone that is not a first team player. These are players that are too young (everyone under 20 for example); is loaned out, or is in the u23/u21/B/jong team

Exceptions will be superstar players that are by far the best of a club/division, even if they've just arrived; like Messi. Or loaned out players that did make an impact before.

For being allowed to stay, you could look at:
1. Superstar status (Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, DeBruyne, Van Dijk, etc)
2. At least 100 matches
3. Lots of goals, or other huge impact

For Manchester United, there are only 5 non-Britisch players that qualify: Cristiano Ronaldo, David de Gea, Victor Lindelöf, Fred and Antony Martial. Of these players Fred played the least matches and Martial is Loaned out. Keeping Ronaldo and de Gea is probably without question, but you could argue about Lindelöf vs Fred and Martial. Of those 3 Martial made the biggest/longest impact. So keeping Martial over Lindelöf is an option too
Sending Donny van de Beek back to Ajax would not be a problem, but sending Varane back to Real Madrid would. That would break a lance for career starting teams or free transfers (in which case it is all about the human players and the AI where they end up again)

 

I've looked at Manchester City too: Mahrez, Laporte and Rodri are all just a little bit above 100 matches, but Gündoğan, DeBruyne, Silva and Ederson played far more matches. Kevin is without a question a Citizen. The other 3 are comparible. And what about superstar Haaland?

About Arsenal: Easy with Bellerin (though loaned out) and Xhaka

About Chelsea: Alonso, Kanté and Azpi

About Liverpool: Van Dijk (superstar) Salah (superstar) Firmino (far more matches than Allison and Matip)

About Spurs: Loris and Son. (Moura and Sanchez are comparible with eachother). If Welshman Davies is considered foreign too, he should be in.

Another option could be to release/send back all foreigners, though a Man Utd without Ronaldo or a City without DeBruyne feels not right.
Again another option, is to keep just 2, so every team has the chance to buy one of the released/send back players.

What would actually happen if a team has 4 or more foreigners? Nothing? just not eligible for the competition? Forced transfers behore deadline?

 

 

Whatever solution you chose, the main reasons should be playability and fair distribution + who you (as you are the creator) feel that should be there.

 

Hope this helps a bit

Edited August 14, 2022 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

You are exactly contemplating what I did during the IC20 build.

Releasing on a free is only reasonable for lower level players as their impact is low and they will not play any big role in your game. So releasing on a free for 'well known' players is a no-go.
Send them back to a previous is the most obvious solution, but there is where the foreign player rules per nation come in.
Because looking at (for example) Kevin de Bruyne you can say that De Bruyne then should move from Man City to Wolfsburg. Since De Bruyne is not a German, he would then possibly be surplus again at Wolfsburg. So it makes more sense to not send him back to another foreign team, meaning Werder Bremen and Chelsea (they will hate that yet again ) are no options either. 
Sending them back to the team they started their career is an option, but will result in many players starting their career at a foreign team (history prior not known or the team they really started at isn't in the FM database), or it will result in some teams ballooning, such as Ajax for instance that has many players that started there.
My choice was to send them back to a previous team of their nationality which for De Bruyne would mean KRC Genk. 

For each nation there are specific rules next to the 2 or 3 foreign player rules allowed.
For instance, in Belgium players from DR Congo, Rwanda and Burundi aren't counted as foreign. The Netherlands has the same for players from the Dutch Antilles, Aruba and Suriname.
In that same sense, in England Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish AND Irish players are not counted as foreign. However...., they are counted as foreign in Europe. Manchester United hated this in the early 90s. Just check for that final they lost big because Ferguson thought it to be smart to leave Schmeichel out (!!!). This is also an interesting case for Portugal and France where their former colonies are not counted as foreign, but they are counted as foreign in Europe, unless they have a French second nationality.

You have good team suggestions btw. Luckily we only have to decide on Haaland in Germany as he hasn't left for City yet in the database. Most of what you say is in line with my thinking. Young players and non-impact players are probably moved. You have to remember that a team could only fill three places and would always pick a player that has arrived. No need to fill a place with a player you don't know will add to them.

Previously in case a team had a max of 3 foreigners, I kept 4 so the team was allowed to decide who should stay or go. I think I am going for this idea again as it also limits my work
If a team has 4 foreign players with 3 allowed. The fourth one doesn't registered and isn't eligible. There is nothing (as far as I can find) in the editor that forces the game or the team to do something about. I would prefer something like fines or something. Depending on the wage, the wage for a player that doesn't anything, is a bit of a penalty already.

[Wolf_pd]

Anyway, for now it is a simple discussion. I am working on the Eastern European teams where no foreign players are allowed. This applies to Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Soviet Union and East Germany. East Germany will be a bit later, because I want to discuss that with @Reiver  But for the rest of those nations all foreign players are removed and all nation players will return, except for a few nations based on age, (Poland +26, Soviet Union +30, Hungary +30, Czechoslovakia +32). That's about 2500 foreigners to be removed. And around the same amount of players being moved back (I haven't checked those exactly, but will do so tonight).

[Jorgen]

@Wolf_pd 👍🏻 I'm happy to help. Keeping it balanced and fun is not so easy. 

Yes, I think that sending players back to their previous team of their nationality is the best way to do this. If a club can't have another foreign player, he wouldn't have been transfered in the first place. So staying at the last team that isn't a problem, makes a lot of sense. Otherwise, having Kevin at Werder would mean sending another one of Werder's players back again.

Perhaps it isn't a question of how many you keep, but only which ones really deserve to be there. Real managers have to chose too.  Selling and registering the right players (and not getting angry fans, or unhappy players) is just part of the challenge then. Looking at Ajax only 2 players qualify for staying (Tadic (impact) and Antony (future star)) but PSV and Everton would have none. Looking at PSG one could argue to send Messi back, but he doesn't want to be at Barça. So keeping Messi, Neymar, Marquinhos and Verratti would make sense.

Hope this helps. 👍🏻

 

Edit: @Wolf_pd sorry for the multiple edits of this text. English is not my native language and I had a lot of ideas, that you already talked about, so I could delete them.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

On 15/08/2022 at 04:02, Jorgen said:

Edit: @Wolf_pd sorry for the multiple edits of this text. English is not my native language and I had a lot of ideas, that you already talked about, so I could delete them.

In that case, maybe write in your native language. It might be easier for me to understand

[Wolf_pd]

Not much progress this week. I had a good planning and then on Sunday something happened which threw the planning out of the window. Nothing really serious, but I have to take care of it and it will take me a lot of time to fi

I had agreed to work out something for a club, which would cost me 2-3 hours and promised them to take care of it on Sunday. When I logged into the system to start my work, it turns out someone else already did it and did it completely wrong. Unfortunately it means I need to first remove all the errors AND then redo it completely. We are talking 8-12 hours. So that really sucks.

[Jorgen]

On 18/08/2022 at 08:56, Wolf_pd said:

In that case, maybe write in your native language. It might be easier for me to understand

I could do that, but this isn't this forum English only? 

[Wolf_pd]

2 hours ago, Jorgen said:

I could do that, but this isn't this forum English only? 

It was quite strict on it before, but isn't that much anymore. We prefer people to speak English, but for some English is too hard and a google translate of their native language can be easier.

Also, ik denk dat ik je wel versta in je eigen taal

[Jorgen]

11 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

It was quite strict on it before, but isn't that much anymore. We prefer people to speak English, but for some English is too hard and a google translate of their native language can be easier.

Also, ik denk dat ik je wel versta in je eigen taal

On 18/08/2022 at 08:59, Wolf_pd said:

 

Haha ja dat dacht ik al. Ik had veel ideeën, maar zag pas later dat de meeste al overeenkwamen. Help graag in elk geval. En wil het forum niet onnodig met NL overspoelen, zodat het leesbaar blijft. 

 

Waar loop je nu tegenaan qua keuzes? 

En heb je een lijst van de teamregels per land/divisie? 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

14 hours ago, Jorgen said:

Haha ja dat dacht ik al. Ik had veel ideeën, maar zag pas later dat de meeste al overeenkwamen. Help graag in elk geval. En wil het forum niet onnodig met NL overspoelen, zodat het leesbaar blijft. 

Waar loop je nu tegenaan qua keuzes? 

En heb je een lijst van de teamregels per land/divisie? 

I'll will answer in English if you don't mind, so the rest of the people can read along without needing Google Translate.
Also, this graphic could be understandable for some

Anyway, in terms of choices, most things I am doing now were either thought out in the FM20 version of the Iron Curtain or are refinement from the choices I made there.
A few mistakes I made there: not correcting transfer values which made the game set (have been set to zero now for the previous team), rehousing every single player which adds a lot of work without much substance or effect (that's why I free transferred a lot of the <50 players now), not keeping an eye on team size, which meant i had to clean up a lot of players afterwards (right now I have a list of each team that has been changed with initial player numbers, so I know what the starting size was).

I have made my choices for moving players better as well. Previously I didn't start with Romania, Bulgaria and Albania, but these are easiest as it is quite simple, no foreigners allowed and noone is allowed to leave the country. So you essentially end up swapping the foreign players with players coming back from outside their nation. By first doing those and then doing the nations that don't allow foreigners, you have a much better idea where all team sizes end up. Which means cleanup is less.

Additionally, this was after discussing the mod with someone who did play in the era, I did make some right decisions in FM20 when choosing the foreigners that remained with teams and I made some wrong decisions.
Everyone under 25 does not play outside their country. The lone exceptions are players that by age 25 have been capped about 50 times and played more than 100 games for their previous team. Teams would never invest in those players. This is also where FM transferring goes wrong. Teams these days just grab anything which looks remotely OK, put them in their academy and then send away everyone who turn out not good enough. In 1988 that would be the other way around, local pro teams would be putting those teams in the academy and anyone not good enough would return to their local amateur teams. In a sense, everyone under 25 and without any prior international experience can be send back. At the same time, teams would try and maximize their foreigh player amount, because, if it is allowed, do it. I have to add the nuance that this differs per nation btw. In some cases there are just not enough interesting foreign players of their levels (this applies to lower level nations) or the local academy has so many good nation players that they don't need foreigners. And in other cases, finances apply.

Talking about finances, I have been considering putting in the Dutch rules where foreign players have to be paid a slightly higher wage, but I am not sure yet if I want to do that. Would be funny for England....

Team rules per nation and division in general are:
All West European Nations except for Germany, Spain and Italy: 3 foreigners at level 1
Germany, Spain and Italy: 2 foreigners at level 1
All Eastern European Nations except for Yugoslavia: no foreigners allowed (at whatever level)
Yugoslavia: 1 foreign player allowed at level 1 and 2

China and Hong Kong have the same rules as the big group of European nations.

[Wolf_pd]

Another one to take into account is the way how certain Eastern European nations allow their players to leave the country (or not!)

So Albania, Romania and Bulgaria do not allow their footballing inhabitants to leave the country, at all. The same applies to East Germany btw, but that has one has a special exception in the sense that East Germans are not counted as foreigners in the West Germans competition.

Poland, Czechoslovakia, the USSR, Hungary and Yugoslavia did allow their players to move out later in their career. For Polish players this would be 26, but in reallife there was also a rule that Polish people could move to Germany based on rules and regulation around their nationality and previous German-relations (some parts of Poland were German before WW2 afterall. This weirdly enough also applies to the USSR, which explains the German names you find in the database in mainly Kazakhstan. Soviet players would only be allowed to leave the country by the time they were 30 however. This also applied to Hungary, while for Czechoslovakia it was 32. Yugoslavia only had the cap at 27, but especially with Yugoslavia in the database you will see that the wars in the 90's have given a different twist on that. There were already enough players of Yugoslav descent (say a Robert Prosinecki for instance) outside Yugoslavia, but with the wars in that area in the early 90's this moving to other countries has been much bigger.

But back to the impact of moving players and the Eastern European age-rules regarding moving. Simply said, if a player is of a certain age (say 24) and he is Polish, there would have been no chance he would have played outside Poland, so he gets moved back. This makes moving players a lot easier, because you know which ones to pick and move back rightway. However, say a Polish player of 28 (so yes, he is legally playing outside Poland) would be playing in Romania, he will start be moved back, because Romania doesn't allow for foreign players. So it is a combination of two rules, one way what does the nationality of the player allow, play outside his nation, player outside his nation only after a certain age, or not play outside his nation at all and on the other hand, does the nation he plays in that foreign players play there.

And with former colonies that makes for even more fun. You can really set up all star teams in Portugal and France, but will never be able to play them in Europe.

[Jorgen]

English is fine by me. It's only sometimes that I can't exactly say what I mean in English.

 

Wow, that are very strict rules for a lot of nations. I was born in 1980 and started following football around 1992 or 1994 or so; just before when Ajax won the Champions League and the Intercontinental Cup. Spoken about those: do you implement the 80's style cups too? If you follow the rules and history you just pointed out Ajax would've never signed Kaplan, nor Antony. The latter is considered a world class talent. Were the rules in the late 80's and/or early 90's already so different that PSV could sign Romario at just 22 or Ronaldo Luiz Nazario de LIma at just 18 years old?

Can you implement only club/division buy rules, or club/division sell rules too? I.e. you can specify that Romania only signs players with Romanian nationality. But can you specify that Polish teams may only sell players above 25 years of age?

If we look at Ajax; only Dusan Tadic was a top player of the right age when he came to Ajax. But what about Antony? He is very young (like Ronaldo Luiz Nazario de Lima) but unmistakenly very talented. Would clubs try to buy those wonderkids? Or were the rules so strict that (almost) none of those players transfered abroad?

If I take another look at PSG; at first I said that Verratti, Marquinhos, Neymar and Messi all should stay. You could argue that Draxler is among those players too.
The likes of Navas, Donnarumma, Hakimi, Ramos, Pereira, Wijnaldum,  Sarabia, and  Icardi, can all be argued to be  bought by PSG because of their age/matches/caps/previous performance, but seeing how the aformetioned Verratti, Marquinhos, Neymar and Messi (or perhaps Draxler) are allready performing very well for PSG, you could say that PSG would never even think about buying Ramos or Donnarumma.

Who would you choose?

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

2 hours ago, Jorgen said:

English is fine by me. It's only sometimes that I can't exactly say what I mean in English.

 

Wow, that are very strict rules for a lot of nations. I was born in 1980 and started following football around 1992 or 1994 or so; just before when Ajax won the Champions League and the Intercontinental Cup. Spoken about those: do you implement the 80's style cups too? If you follow the rules and history you just pointed out Ajax would've never signed Kaplan, nor Antony. The latter is considered a world class talent. Were the rules in the late 80's and/or early 90's already so different that PSV could sign Romario at just 22 or Ronaldo Luiz Nazario de LIma at just 18 years old?

Can you implement only club/division buy rules, or club/division sell rules too? I.e. you can specify that Romania only signs players with Romanian nationality. But can you specify that Polish teams may only sell players above 25 years of age?

If we look at Ajax; only Dusan Tadic was a top player of the right age when he came to Ajax. But what about Antony? He is very young (like Ronaldo Luiz Nazario de Lima) but unmistakenly very talented. Would clubs try to buy those wonderkids? Or were the rules so strict that (almost) none of those players transfered abroad?

If I take another look at PSG; at first I said that Verratti, Marquinhos, Neymar and Messi all should stay. You could argue that Draxler is among those players too.
The likes of Navas, Donnarumma, Hakimi, Ramos, Pereira, Wijnaldum,  Sarabia, and  Icardi, can all be argued to be  bought by PSG because of their age/matches/caps/previous performance, but seeing how the aformetioned Verratti, Marquinhos, Neymar and Messi (or perhaps Draxler) are allready performing very well for PSG, you could say that PSG would never even think about buying Ramos or Donnarumma.

Who would you choose?

I am not that older actually (1979) but we have some footballing history in the family which makes me a bit more aware on the period in football. Let's say that I got signed photos from the EC88 final that were handed over personally  Should be somewhere in a box at my parents. Ronaldo was already from 1994 when rules were being relaxed (1995 brought the real free rules), but Romario was considered an outlier before the Olympic tournament of 1988 already and he cemented that with scoring 7 goals there. PSV had a very good network in Brazil at the time (might even have been supported by Philips), so in that case they were sure they got the right person. If only he wasn't so tired every time

It is set at various. At the nation level you can set whether any country buys from another country. In the case of Romania that has been set to no activity at all so Romanian teams won't buy players from outside Romania. And all other nations have Romania set to -1 so they won't buy Romanian players. Poland has been set at no activity just like Romania, so won't buy foreigners. But for other nations Poland has been set to no activity from 14-25 and to limited from 26 to 45 for specific nations.
Next to that the foreigner rules have been set at division level, setting them at 0 foreigners allowed in the squad and 0 foreigners allowed in the match day squad. Weirdly I had to set both in the FM20 rules, as not setting them both would mean teams were still buying extra foreigners.

The 80's style cups are in there, UEFA, CWC and the regular knockout EC1. The Toyota Cup is in there as well.

Good question about PSG. A few things to consider there. Hakimi is OK, because he is Moroccan and Moroccans are allowed to play as non-foreign in France due to being a former French colony. It is likely that Marquinhos ended up in Portugal, for the same reason as Hakimi at PSG. Brazilians don't count as foreigners in Portugal. Icardi would likely have stayed in Italy for the same as I think he has some Italian heritage and he wouldn't have counted as foreign in Serie A. Ramos would likely never have been transferred to PSG as he was at that time too old and (to be honest) doesn't fill a space that can't be filled with a French player. You would probably see Varane at PSG instead of Man Utd. Keylor Navas would probably have stayed at Real Madrid as Courtois would never have been transferred to Madrid. I am not sure about the rules in Spain regarding to quicker naturalisation for Costa Rica, but I would not have been surprised if suddenly a Spanish forefather was found for Navas. Neymar and Messi would have likely stayed. I thought Draxler wasn't doing that great for PSG to be honest?

For the Ajax example, looking at the current players gives a bit of problem as the players that were transferred in that time were different. The Dutch competition wasn't that far behind in finances (ok, the rest wasn't that far ahead), so more established players could be transferred. Also, the current Dutch setup focuses on getting mostly young players and selling them on with profit.

[Jorgen]

O wow, that really is very nice to have!

I agree with those players that would've never been transfered in the first place if we still had 80's rules. But in real life, the transfers did happen. Although Draxler is doing only 26 goals goals in about 200 official matches for PSG, apperently they do consider him important enough to play so many matches. From those 5, he would've been the first that I would choose to leave.

I think you could look at it from two totally different points of view. 

1. The player is here in real life. There are a few slots available in the player roster. If we turn back the rules, but stay in the present world, what would his manager choose for him. Keep or Go?

or

2. Would he've been transfered in the 1st place, when it was 1980? If not, were would he've stayed?

Earlier we talked about players having played 100+ (or even higher like 150) matches, and/or scored lots of goals and/or having superstar status. If players are not "unplayable" like CR seems at this moment at ManU or Messi at the end of his Barça contract, then all managers would prefer them to stay. Same with Neymar, DeBruyne, Salah, etc. If we consider options 1 and 2 not as opposits, but as additions to eachother, that could do the trick for most players, I hope.

What about the historical/cultural ties for Germany? Were there any exceptions for Austrian of Swiss players like Sabitzer in the German rules? Coman would've never left PSG, but as he is really important for Bayern, you could say he earned one of the 2 slots. Sadio Mané (starplayer) and Alphonso Davies (enormous potential), Sabitzer (star in the league) and even Sarr could all have legitimate reasons to come. Though Mané is a superstar, he wouldn't have been bought, if Bayern wasn't freeing a slot for him.

 

I really like the thought-experiments of this mod. But I wouldn't want you to loose all your time contemplating all my suggestions, or to tell you what to do. It's just my ideas, as I like it very much.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

Romania and Bulgaria are finished. Albania, I am finishing removing the foreign players (40 to go) and then it will be about getting back the Albanian players, which are a lot.

This weekend I finally have a weekend completely for myself again. So I have planned a lot of edit work on Germany and international competition work. Luckily I won't have to go into the office untill halfway September. A few weeks back I went twice in one week and that is still too much for me.

[Jorgen]

Happy editing @Wolf_pd 👍🏻

[Wolf_pd]

West-Germany and playoffs, what a drag. Add to that the Landespokals and you have a bit of work cut out. Next week will probably see some more of that. The Albanian return diaspora continues in the meantime and it is also helping lowering the amount of foreign player to remove.

I have currently 1900 foreign players in Italy (started at 2600) and when Albania is done and dusted, there should be only 1700 foreign players left in Italy. I might do a check for the biggest loads of work which country causes that (Austria is over 2400 still…) and order in such a way that I can profit. However, first continue with Albania and whenever that is done it is time for either Hungary or Czechoslovakia.

[Wolf_pd]

Also, despite me moving back a whole load of foreigners, they will still turn up when the game is running. Exactly this is why I want the next editors to allow for editing which newgen nationalities are created!

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

14 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Also, despite me moving back a whole load of foreigners, they will still turn up when the game is running. Exactly this is why I want the next editors to allow for editing which newgen nationalities are created!

This issue seems to be throwing a huge spanner in the works!

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, \&#x27;Appy \&#x27;Ammer said:

This issue seems to be throwing a huge spanner in the works!

Ah no, I must make myself more clear. The foreign players that I moved back are OK, however, newgens will not obey my rules as those are set at a part of the data we can't touch. So that's the one thing that would improve things really, if we can edit where newgens turn up.

[Wolf_pd]

A surprisingly easy run today moving some 250 players today back to Albania. I have 285 left to do, and with physio tomorrow, that will not be finished tomorrow, but I have good hopes I can start with Hungary this weekend and maybe even start on Czechoslovakia this weekend. Too bad I am way on Saturday and only have the Sunday to recover and edit.

[Jorgen]

21 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Ah no, I must make myself more clear. The foreign players that I moved back are OK, however, newgens will not obey my rules as those are set at a part of the data we can't touch. So that's the one thing that would improve things really, if we can edit where newgens turn up.

Can't you specificy per city/region/nation what kind of nationalities are coming through?
I thought there are a fantasy db's (like i.e. new regions/nations, legendary players from nations dat don't exist anymore, etc) where they have the right nationalities.

Have you asked @Daveincid  (increase realism update) or @themodelcitizen (diaspora 2nd nationality update) if they knows a workaround?

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Jorgen:

Can't you specificy per city/region/nation what kind of nationalities are coming through?
I thought there are a fantasy db's (like i.e. new regions/nations, legendary players from nations dat don't exist anymore, etc) where they have the right nationalities.

Have you asked @Daveincid  (increase realism update) or @themodelcitizen (diaspora 2nd nationality update) if they knows a workaround?

This is something which only researchers can change, but @Wolf_pd knows that too

[Wolf_pd]

35 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

Can't you specificy per city/region/nation what kind of nationalities are coming through?
I thought there are a fantasy db's (like i.e. new regions/nations, legendary players from nations dat don't exist anymore, etc) where they have the right nationalities.

Have you asked @Daveincid  (increase realism update) or @themodelcitizen (diaspora 2nd nationality update) if they knows a workaround?

@Daveincidis part of the Iron Curtain team  
But the probleem is that the part where you can edit which exact newgens are created isn't accesable in the editor. It is my hope for every new FM (and I hope to be able to build it backwards into older versions then as well :P )

[Jorgen]

@Wolf_pd and @Daveincid Thanks for replying. I hoped it could be fixed. Well... it will be great anyway, I'm sure of that.

[Wolf_pd]

7 hours ago, Jorgen said:

Have you asked @Daveincid  (increase realism update) or @themodelcitizen (diaspora 2nd nationality update) if they knows a workaround?

For some teams there will be a workaround used. Say you have a Croatia Berlin. In the default game that might give Croatian/German newgens. Since Croatia is extinct, it will have to be a Serbian/German newgens, but with Croatian names.

Create a second West-Berlin, put West-Berlin in Nation Serbia. Set the language of the Serbian West-Berlin as Croatian. Then set Croatia Berlin to city West-Berlin and you should have your Serbian/German newgens at Croatia Berlin and they should have Croatian names if everything works out as well.

[Jorgen]

It's a very big puzzle... 

[themodelcitizen]

I guess the main drawback to that tried-and-tested method is that the game won't instantly recognize that Croatia Berlin vs. Hertha Berlin is a city derby, say, or that a Croatia Berlin academy product who later plays for Hertha should be recognized as playing for his hometown (think of that one press conference question), as the two "cities" each have their own unique ID.

Otherwise it should work, visually, the exact same way. If there's a better method I have yet to encounter it

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, themodelcitizen said:

I guess the main drawback to that tried-and-tested method is that the game won't instantly recognize that Croatia Berlin vs. Hertha Berlin is a city derby, say, or that a Croatia Berlin academy product who later plays for Hertha should be recognized as playing for his hometown (think of that one press conference question), as the two "cities" each have their own unique ID.

Otherwise it should work, visually, the exact same way. If there's a better method I have yet to encounter it

Hmm, good point, that is a thing to consider.

[Wolf_pd]

Working on Germany today, comparing it to the FM20 version. In terms of progress and complexity, that's where the difference is. Not sure when I would have finished IC20 when I would have build to the same depth of competition Quite interesting to research though!

[Jorgen]

I read there was a big rivalry between East and West German national team and clubs, but also that there where many East Germans that supported the West German NT, even supporting it in stadiums when the West German NT played matches in Eastern Europe. Could something like that be reflected?

Will you do an exact date in time at which everything is as it was, or more a period from WW2 to 1990?

i.e. like Saarland who where independent from Germany at some periods of time and in 1935 and 1957 voted to be part of Germany again, or tournaments like the Mitropa Cup, Benelux Friendship Cup and Latin Cup?

[Wolf_pd]

It will 1988 based. So we have checked 1988 seasons around the globe. Western Europe is mostly unchanged as they are assumed to have evolved. For West Germany and Eastern Europe time stood still. The 1988 international club and nations competition are included, some in close to realistic form, so with more or less a sort of artistic form  In some cases we have used the 1989 form as the 1988 season was a season with change for instance.

I am not sure if we can work out fan movement in the game. From a worldbuilding perspective that is very interesting, but from the FM perspective that SI has, it's unlikely to be doable.

 

[Jorgen]

If you have a 1988/1989 point of view, it is close to 1992 when the Champions League started as successor of the Europa Cup 1. Will such changes take place after 4 years, or is the world frozen in the rules of 1988?

[Wolf_pd]

9 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

If you have a 1988/1989 point of view, it is close to 1992 when the Champions League started as successor of the Europa Cup 1. Will such changes take place after 4 years, or is the world frozen in the rules of 1988?

Frozen for now. Including the England European Cup ban is on the menu, expansion and competition changes aren't at the moment.

[oche balboa]

On 04/09/2022 at 15:59, Wolf_pd said:

Frozen for now. Including the England European Cup ban is on the menu, expansion and competition changes aren't at the moment.

Harsh but fair 

[Wolf_pd]

52 minutes ago, oche balboa said:

Harsh but fair 

Liverpool will get an extra year just like in the 90s.

[Wolf_pd]

This book contains about 10000 photos of pins and logos for East German sportclubs. If anyone is aware of a similar book for other nations (especially USSR!) in Eastern Europe, please let us know.

[Jorgen]

Perhaps you could contact the author, or look at the big book shops online to see the suggestions at "what other customers bought..."
Football Dynamo: Modern Russia and the People's Game is written by Marc Bennetts. Though it focusses on the 1991 oligarch takeover, perhaps he knows about cold war football too.
I also found Football in the Land of the Soviets by Carles Viñas.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

Kazakhstan should stick with their capitalname. After it being Tselinograd, Astana, Nur-Sultan it is back to Astana. Luckily it is no issue for us

[Wolf_pd]

On 11/09/2022 at 13:37, Jorgen said:

Perhaps you could contact the author, or look at the big book shops online to see the suggestions at "what other customers bought..."
Football Dynamo: Modern Russia and the People's Game is written by Marc Bennetts. Though it focusses on the 1991 oligarch takeover, perhaps he knows about cold war football too.
I also found Football in the Land of the Soviets by Carles Viñas.

I found the Viñas book, have to check the Bennetts book. Logo books are hard to find, unless you can find a collector version. The issue is with the Soviet one is that it is likely in Cyrillic.

[Jorgen]

@Wolf_pd Though I can read Cyrilic, I won't be of much help, as I can only read the letters. but I won't understand most words, unless they sound/look similar to Dutch/German/English/etc.
But, if you can find it as ebook/pdf or something like that, Google translate would be a helpful option, perhaps.

That being sad, would you add the Cyrillic names to the clubs? Between brackets for example.

I.e.

Шахтар Донецьк (Shakhtar Donetsk)
or
Shakhtar Donetsk (Шахтар Донецьк)