Has Anyone Got a 4-4-2 Diamond Working

[Jops14]

Hi All, as it says on the tin, it was my favourite tactic from about FM14-FM18, on 19 I just couldnt get it working and I can't on 20.

 

The concept I have behind it is I want my wing backs to provide all the attacking width, I want to attack fairly quickly and vertically using the triangles in the middle, with ideally my AMC (SS) as a main goal threat, by having a striker come short to receive the ball from the AMC and then feeding the ball into the space behind to the AMC or strike partner.

 

What I have often found recently is the team ends up so shaky at the back, whilst also failing to create many opportunities. The wing backs push too high to quickly, I want and anchor man to basically drop and form a defensive 3 when attacking, with the wingbacks overlapping late for crosses. And in defence essentially I want the anchor man to act as an aggressive stopped in front of the 2 central defenders, with the 2 CM's harassing space in the middle and AMC providing a quick outlet. (although I find with any formation I seem to get completely dominated on the flanks)

 

But I can't find a default tacital style that suits this, and I can never get it to work, I have tried a 5-3-2 with 2 attacking wing backs at DR/DL but they didnt seem to get high enough, I just cant work out the roles and i've really struggle to understand the game wiht the new tactical format.

 

Essentially in attack i want this, with AMC overlapping

 

And in defence I want this, I prefer 2/3 striker formations

 

With quick transitioning direct attacks - not bothered about possession.

 

[Experienced Defender]

On 05/11/2019 at 23:34, Jops14 said:

on 19 I just couldnt get it working and I can't on 20.

I don't play FM20 yet, but in FM19 I have a narrow 442 diamond tactic that works nice for me. However, I use the tactic for Man Utd, not a lower league club. 

[XuluBak]

I haven't tried 442 Diamond in FM20 yet. Had some success using it last year, but I cannot imagine playing it with complete disregard for possession as you seem to be suggesting. So I can't provide much advice there, although, from what you're describing, I wonder if a halfback wouldn't be a better fit than an anchorman for your DM. 

What you're describing sounds more like a 352/532 though. 

I used HSV for a season in FM20, playing primarily a 3313 (think the game called it 5113, or maybe 51121?). Ultimately, not long enough to get it 'right' (tactically or personnel wise), but one thing that was definitely working, was my wingbacks getting forward. They accounted for 25+ assists and 5+ goals (despite my first choice WBs only playing 20 and 24 league games); including, my favorite goal so far in FM20 (wingback to wingback for a volley back across the goal). That was despite the beta ME being extremely resistant to putting in crosses and strikers botching premium opportunities left and right. 

Can you post actual tactics? Might be able to provide more useful insights.

Edited November 9, 2019 by XuluBak

[Jops14]

14 hours ago, XuluBak said:

I haven't tried 442 Diamond in FM20 yet. Had some success using it last year, but I cannot imagine playing it with complete disregard for possession as you seem to be suggesting. So I can't provide much advice there, although, from what you're describing, I wonder if a halfback wouldn't be a better fit than an anchorman for your DM. 

What your describing sounds more like a 352/532 though. 

I used HSV for a season in FM20, playing primarily a 3313 (think the game called it 5113, or maybe 51121?). Ultimately, not long enough to get it 'right' (tactically or personnel wise), but one thing that was definitely working, was my wingbacks getting forward. They accounted for 25+ assists and 5+ goals (despite my first choice WBs only playing 20 and 24 league games); including, my favorite goal so far in FM20 (wingback to wingback for a volley back across the goal). That was despite the beta ME being extremely resistant to putting in crosses and strikers botching premium opportunities left and right. 

Can you post actual tactics? Might be able to provide more useful insights.

Funnily enough, I think at one point (maybe it was actually 18) I switched to a 5-2-1-2. I've tried the pre-set tiki-taka style but it doesnt seem to work for me.

 

 

So actually I switched to half back last night and it's made a world of difference, Hayden/Ajer have been dominating in that slot. But as you can see our results have been... WILD.

 

Thats the 5-3-2 I want, just using basic tiki taka which doesnt quite work for me.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Jops14

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Jops14 said:

 

2 hours ago, Jops14 said:

In these 2 tactics your instructions are generally a bigger problem than roles and duties (although the latter also need some tweaking). On the other hand, your position on the table (7th) is surprisingly good for Newcastle, especially taking the tactic(s) into account. Therefore, I think that you should be more than happy with your achievement.

[jc577]

On 07/11/2019 at 18:58, Experienced Defender said:

 

In these 2 tactics your instructions are generally a bigger problem than roles and duties (although the latter also need some tweaking). On the other hand, your position on the table (7th) is surprisingly good for Newcastle, especially taking the tactic(s) into account. Therefore, I think that you should be more than happy with your achievement.

I agree with ED here; I think your TIs are too aggressive both in possession (much shorter passing + much lower tempo) and out of it (much higher d-line, LOE & extremely urgent pressing) but even more importantly, I don’t think it suits the Newcastle squad. Joelington is an excellent TM and Almiron would be lethal combining with him in a counter-attacking based system. However you are 7th in the league, so it must be working! But that’s the direction I would go in.

[Jops14]

Yeah well it's second season, first I came 13th. I don't really play Joelinton or Almiron anymore. Use Embolo/Josef Martinez/Weah/Kluivert

Again the 5-3-2 is just the default tiki-taka, any suggestions are welcome, I can see the TI's are instrctuions, my point is i cant see where to change them

[Spiegel]

I’ve always found the diamond to work better with the DM moved into the midfield strata, a 4-3-1-2. i.e. a DLP(D) with a CAR(S) on either side of him. 
 

Defends better on the flanks with two shuttles in midfield, while the DLP will give you the defensive movement you want but will also move into midfield as and when required.

[Rakatics]

Currently I'm using this (trying to emulate Marco Rose's formation at Salzburg).

Sometimes I drop back the Central Midfield - Defend to Defensive Midfielder - Defend. Only role I'm not sure about is the center left striker (I alternate between Target Man - Attack and Complete Forward - Attack). 

 

[yellowforever]

@Rakatics In general it looks good to me, how's it working? Personally I always like to have a Support/Attack pairing up front but in this kind of setting with a support attacking midfielder behind it makes sense.

[Rakatics]

I find that with both strikers on attack duties there is more mobility and aggressiveness and it opens space for the attacking midfielder to make late runs into the area and finish. Although in Marco Roses's system at Salzburg the attacking midfielder would bypass the striker (usually Dabbur) and get in behind the defence sometimes. Some tinkering needed yet. 

[Jops14]

Just now, Rakatics said:

I find that with both strikers on attack duties there is more mobility and aggressiveness and it opens space for the attacking midfielder to make late runs into the area and finish. Although in Marco Roses's system at Salzburg the attacking midfielder would bypass the striker (usually Dabbur) and get in behind the defence sometimes. Some tinkering needed yet. 

Thats what I keep trying to implement, ideally I want the attacking midfielder to be a main goalthrewat and one striker acting as the main creator, used to try false nine but find it drops too deep and they end up occu[ying the same space with the ball

[yellowforever]

14 minutes ago, Rakatics said:

I find that with both strikers on attack duties there is more mobility and aggressiveness and it opens space for the attacking midfielder to make late runs into the area and finish. Although in Marco Roses's system at Salzburg the attacking midfielder would bypass the striker (usually Dabbur) and get in behind the defence sometimes. Some tinkering needed yet. 

Perhaps a CF (S) in front of a AM (A)? Honestly though it sounds like you've got a decent idea and are just adjusting slight things so good luck.

[Rakatics]

Cf (s) + Am (a) might work. 

[Jops14]

went back to FM18, this was the old diamond I used, always worked exactly how I wanted. Just can't replicate it on 20...2 8 games into the season, won 5, drew 2 lost 1. Including wins over spurs and man U....

 

[XuluBak]

Small sample size (using the FM20 ME), but so far, I'm liking what I see from 4312 more than 442D. Match results aside, it just seems like they control the midfield better. Admittedly, I'm using Brescia, so my talent is limited; however, Tonali is the movable piece in that equation, and I actually had my best game using 4312 without him.  Now, it's certainly possible I was asking too much from him (in 442D), given his supporting cast, but my only other option in that spot is injured. I'm curious to see how 442D will fair with Tonali pushed forward. I'd also like to try a 2DM pairing, with him as an SV, but not sure I have the personnel for that, and dunno how long I'll be able to hold onto him. 

[XuluBak]

Does having Willems and Ntcham on the same side cause problems? I'd think you'd want your CAR on that side. 

I was a big fan of using an HB with highly aggressive sides last year, haven't really used one yet in FM20. Need to get my other DM healthy, so I can push Tonali forward and try it. 

If you're wanting two strikers, with a shadow striker coming in behind, then I'd think you'd want one of your front two to be a DLF-S. I viewed a shadow striker more as a 2nd striker, that plays off the striker in front of him. Don't remember using the role much, if at all, with two strikers last year. 

[Jops14]

34 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

Does having Willems and Ntcham on the same side cause problems? I'd think you'd want your CAR on that side. 

I was a big fan of using an HB with highly aggressive sides last year, haven't really used one yet in FM20. Need to get my other DM healthy, so I can push Tonali forward and try it. 

If you're wanting two strikers, with a shadow striker coming in behind, then I'd think you'd want one of your front two to be a DLF-S. I viewed a shadow striker more as a 2nd striker, that plays off the striker in front of him. Don't remember using the role much, if at all, with two strikers last year. 

Funnily enough I actually switched it the other day for that exact reason, figured it didnt make sense to have 2 people filling that space, i've instead moved him to the other side and change Clyne to defensive duty - now only romas forward when we have a lot of possession, changed to focus down left flank so most attacks go through Willems. Lots more chances now, just finishing is the issue.

 

Think I will try 3 in the middle as that worked last year for me

[JD nawrat]

I've been using a 41212 and been seeing a fair bit of success. I'm using Werder Bremen and after 12 games I am 5th or 6th (not at my laptop so unable to check). 

I'm using a custom Gegenpress, I believe my shouts are:

WIB: Pass Into Space, Fairly Narrow, Play Out Of Defence

TRANS: Counter Press, Counter, Distribute to CB, Kick It Short 

WOB: Much Higher LOE, Much Higher DL, More Urgent Pressing, Mark Tighter

GK/D; WB/A, CD/Dx2, WB/A; DM/D, MEZ/S, B2B, AP/A; PF/A, DLF/S

I'm second top scorers in the league and have won all 6 of my home games. By contrast I have won 1 of 6 away games...  Tactic is a beast at home but we really struggle on the road. I think it's down to my LOE and DL, but promising signs. We play good football and are difficult to beat. With the exception of a 4-0 loss at Wolfsburg, every single game has been tight, including beating top of the table Schalke, leading in Dortmund 3 times (drew 3-3) and generally being a strong side who attack well and are difficult to attack against. I think we manage probably an average of 3-4 CCCs and about the same for half chances. Away from home we give up loads of CCCs, but at home we have conceded two in 6. 

I'll check my tactic when I'm at home

Edited November 17, 2019 by JDownie

[JD nawrat]

Didn't recall my roles or shouts as well as I thought! And even managed to get the Wolfsburg loss wrong  Think they maybe had one chopped off by VAR. I definitely remember them getting a 4th and me be raging. Anyway...

away results poor as I said before, but other than Hoffenheim away they were all teams above me in the table that I lost to. Wolfsburg are 3rd, Frankfurt were 1st at the time (now 2nd) and Gladbach are 4th. Bayern are 5th and they are my next away game, so not really expecting to cull my poor away form. 

e: should point out that only the Paderborn result is using this current system. I was previously using highest LOE and DL, but I dropped them down for the Paderborn game. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by JDownie

[JD nawrat]

Made some further tweaks to my 41212, namely switching my DM/D to a DLP/D due to Nuri Sahin recovering from a leg break suffered in pre-season, and changing my passing range from default to Shorter and also dropping the pressing intensity one notch from the maximum. 

The result is us winning 4 in a row, being the in-form team in the league, shooting up to 4th and winning my last 2 away games. All of my away games in the second half of the season are against weaker sides than the first half of the season, so I am confident of us having a good season. 

It's only 5 months worth of data but I think the 41212 is definitely doable and I'm having great success with it. We haven't conceded a goal in 4.5 games, since losing 2-1 at Bayern. 

[nick1408]

12 hours ago, JDownie said:

Made some further tweaks to my 41212, namely switching my DM/D to a DLP/D due to Nuri Sahin recovering from a leg break suffered in pre-season, and changing my passing range from default to Shorter and also dropping the pressing intensity one notch from the maximum. 

The result is us winning 4 in a row, being the in-form team in the league, shooting up to 4th and winning my last 2 away games. All of my away games in the second half of the season are against weaker sides than the first half of the season, so I am confident of us having a good season. 

It's only 5 months worth of data but I think the 41212 is definitely doable and I'm having great success with it. We haven't conceded a goal in 4.5 games, since losing 2-1 at Bayern. 

It's a similar setup to what I was thinking with a diamond. Did you try any PI's? My feeling is I need to put the two CM's onto close down more at least to help cover the width of the pitch when the WB's attack. Maybe I'll add some passing PI's as well to the CM's but not sure about them yet

[GunmaN1905]

I had great sucess with 4-1-3-2 during the beta.

Imo, it's a bit better with 3CMs because you get that extra width to defend wingers.

Something similar to JDownie's tactics, but I used RPM and 2 mezzalas with AF-TM duo upfront.

[JD nawrat]

4 hours ago, nick1408 said:

It's a similar setup to what I was thinking with a diamond. Did you try any PI's? My feeling is I need to put the two CM's onto close down more at least to help cover the width of the pitch when the WB's attack. Maybe I'll add some passing PI's as well to the CM's but not sure about them yet

The only PIs I used were the AM set to Roam and Get Further Forward, and the RS set to Roam. I have found very few teams are willing to double up on my fullbacks, only really Bayern did it with Alaba and Gnabry both down the left and they created 1 goal in 90 minutes because of it. All in all pretty tame. 

[Golden1807]

I used the 4-4-2 Diamond with the preset Gegenpress tactic and some good success for the majority of a season before a collapse. I dunno if the collapse came about because of the tactic but I changed it anyway. But anyway, I played with an anchor man then the wingbacks providing the width. I went with this because I was in the Vanarama North and couldn't get a decent tune out of any winger I brought in so abandoned them altogether.

And although I say 'good success', I had way too many high scoring games and it felt unrealistic because I constantly got punished for the high line. It seems any tactic I use with a high line get's the 'ball over the top' treatment for the 90mins.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Golden1807