FM is too overwelming for Newbies

[dudu281]

Hi guys. This is the first FM I play, having bought it because my friends recomended it, but so far it has been far from a pleasant experience.

Plain and simple, FM is incredibly overwelming. Not because of the countless menus, various managerial chores in-between matches or even the concept of football itself.

1. Massive amount of information that is fed to me and how little use most of it has for me. I've read that the game's explanation on mentalities and shape, which seems to be one of the biggest deals here, is pretty vague, to say the least. I couldn't get the grasp of 'shape' in game, so I tried to read about it online, but with so many opinions from so many people, I can't get a simple ideia of what it is, how can I apply it to my team, advantages and disavantages. That is just one example.

2. Assistant feedback and analyst reports. Starting with assistant reports, do they actually have any use? Most feedback I have from them, when employed, is of very little use when employed. So is it down to bad feedback, not enough tactical knowledge or no point in using his advice at all? As for analyst reports, same as point 1. Huge amount of information fed to me but no help in how to use it and what to use. Match analysis gives so much information that would make a real life manager's delight, but with me not beeing one, how can I translate all of that information to a working plan for current and future matches? What do I use? When? Why? Pre-game tutorials would help, as the game looks like it doesn't take in consideration new players, instead made almost exclusively for an estabilished player base.

3. AI defending. I thought I should start at first with a top European team to try to get my basics right, before moving to more challenging leagues. I can't help to notice, when playing bottom table teams, how often they can hold me off. Most of the teams that pulled off a draw or a narrow win against me playing a defensive had the same thing in common: lower morale than my team, lower mentals and lower physical attributes. And yet they pull of a perfect defensive game against me during 90 minutes, restricting me to watch an almost the entire game without a key situation, with the already usual 1vs1 misses against the opposition goalie. I can accept the casual game where it happens, just not how often it does happen. I'm Portuguese, I'm used to watch a league where more than half the teams sit back against Benfica, Porto and Sporting Lisbon, but they usually break, a lot more often than it's depicted in FM, either because of bookings/penalties (for trying to keep them at bay), not enough defensive/concentration capability despite their numbers or exhaustion. Again, lack of information or accurate feedback from the game on how to deal with situations like this, because on forums everyone has a diferent opinion, it's hard to come up with a simple solution for it. So, as far as I'm aware, AI defending against the human player is overpowered.

4.  Scouting and medical centre. I've read some poor reviews on FM18's scouting system, some good, but this beeing my first FM game, with no previous versions to compare it to, I have to say it looks a lot more complicated than it needs to be. What's the diference between the analyst's and scout's report? Why are players rated from a 0-100 system and a star system? What's the diference between them? Why can't I select more than 50 players to scout in one go? I get that scouting more players mean more time to get all of their reports, but why make it such a chore selecting 50 at a time? Especially when the player list glitches the all time. Medical centre is one another example from point 1. Loads of information but little to no use in it, at least not the way it is presented.

5. Media and player interaction. I have a couple of months of FM on me already and I've already found them repetitive after a week. So naturally I was shocked to know that most of these interactions have been around for years, word per word. 

6.Player Ratings. As for what I've seen, player rating only goes high if they score/assist a goal or if a team his smashing another so bad that everyone gets a 8+ rating, including the goalie even if he's nothing more than a espectator the whole game. It's rare to see a 7+ rating on strikers who haven't scored/assisted (but contributed well to other areas), midfielders that kept the middle of the pitch tidy (either from completed pass %, take-ons or tackles/interceptions) or defenders with a dominant display in defence (clearances/headers/tackles) if a team draws or narrowly wins a game (or even loses). This detail doen't look like FM's strongest suit, but I would like in the future to see them reflect real life man-of-match performances.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[skrew]

On #5 I can agree, that's something I just do but don't like at all, because that's a way to motivate players. 
But apart from that...while I understand your concerns that's exactly why FM will keep you entertained (and frustrated) for many many years.

[dudu281]

2 minutes ago, skrew said:

But apart from that...while I understand your concerns that's exactly why FM will keep you entertained (and frustrated) for many many years.

Agreed. I can't let it go now

[skrew]

Just now, dudu281 said:

Agreed. I can't let it go now

Just wait when you rage quit for the first time only to find yourself try it again in 30 minutes  

[masno]

6 minutes ago, dudu281 said:

Hi guys. This is the first FM I play, having bought it because my friends recomended it, but so far it has been far from a pleasant experience.

Plain and simple, FM is incredibly overwelming. Not because of the countless menus, various managerial chores in-between matches or even the concept of football itself.

1. Massive amount of information that is fed to me and how little use most of it has for me. I've read that the game's explanation on mentalities and shape, which seems to be one of the biggest deals here, is pretty vague, to say the least. I couldn't get the grasp of 'shape' in game, so I tried to read about it online, but with so many opinions from so many people, I can't get a simple ideia of what it is, how can I apply it to my team, advantages and disavantages. That is just one example.

2. Assistant feedback and analyst reports. Starting with assistant reports, do they actually have any use? Most feedback I have from them, when employed, is of very little use when employed. So is it down to bad feedback, not enough tactical knowledge or no point in using his advice at all? As for analyst reports, same as point 1. Huge amount of information fed to me but no help in how to use it and what to use. Match analysis gives so much information that would make a real life manager's delight, but with me not beeing one, how can I translate all of that information to a working plan for current and future matches? What do I use? When? Why? Pre-game tutorials would help, as the game looks like it doesn't take in consideration new players, instead made almost exclusively for an estabilished player base.

3. AI defending. I thought I should start at first with a top European team to try to get my basics right, before moving to more challenging leagues. I can't help to notice, when playing bottom table teams, how often they can hold me off. Most of the teams that pulled off a draw or a narrow win against me playing a defensive had the same thing in common: lower morale than my team, lower mentals and lower physical attributes. And yet they pull of a perfect defensive game against me during 90 minutes, restricting me to watch an almost the entire game without a key situation, with the already usual 1vs1 misses against the opposition goalie. I can accept the casual game where it happens, just not how often it does happen. I'm Portuguese, I'm used to watch a league where more than half the teams sit back against Benfica, Porto and Sporting Lisbon, but they usually break, a lot more often than it's depicted in FM, either because of bookings/penalties (for trying to keep them at bay), not enough defensive/concentration capability despite their numbers or exhaustion. Again, lack of information or accurate feedback from the game on how to deal with situations like this, because on forums everyone has a diferent opinion, it's hard to come up with a simple solution for it. So, as far as I'm aware, AI defending against the human player is overpowered.

4.  Scouting and medical centre. I've read some poor reviews on FM18's scouting system, some good, but this beeing my first FM game, with no previous versions to compare it to, I have to say it looks a lot more complicated than it needs to be. What's the diference between the analyst's and scout's report? Why are players rated from a 0-100 system and a star system? What's the diference between them? Why can't I select more than 50 players to scout in one go? I get that scouting more players mean more time to get all of their reports, but why make it such a chore selecting 50 at a time? Especially when the player list glitches the all time. Medical centre is one another example from point 1. Loads of information but little to no use in it, at least not the way it is presented.

5. Media and player interaction. I have a couple of months of FM on me already and I've already found them repetitive after a week. So naturally I was shocked to know that most of these interactions have been around for years, word per word. 

6.Player Ratings. As for what I've seen, player rating only goes high if they score/assist a goal or if a team his smashing another so bad that everyone gets a 8+ rating, including the goalie even if he's nothing more than a espectator the whole game. It's rare to see a 7+ rating on strikers who haven't scored/assisted (but contributed well to other areas), midfielders that kept the middle of the pitch tidy (either from completed pass %, take-ons or tackles/interceptions) or defenders with a dominant display in defence (clearances/headers/tackles) if a team draws or narrowly wins a game (or even loses). This detail doen't look like FM's strongest suit, but I would like in the future to see them reflect real life man-of-match performances.

Sorry for the long post.

 

I will answer what I can

1: For what I know, Highly structured and structured rise or lower your player mentality, so if he is support,he will be lower than someone on attack. This also affects on their positions and the roles. (It is more complex than this,but just for you understand a bit)

4: There is a difference in Real Life: Scouts look for players most of the time,and analysts analyse all the match and give solutions to the teams problems.

5: That is true,there are few options.

[BMNJohn]

I suppose topics do tend to go full circle, where the old becomes new again, even before it had time to get old.

 

[dudu281]

2 hours ago, masno said:

I will answer what I can

1: For what I know, Highly structured and structured rise or lower your player mentality, so if he is support,he will be lower than someone on attack. This also affects on their positions and the roles. (It is more complex than this,but just for you understand a bit)

4: There is a difference in Real Life: Scouts look for players most of the time,and analysts analyse all the match and give solutions to the teams problems.

5: That is true,there are few options.

1. So I would guess that fluid shape would do the opposite, getting their mentalities closer together right? So even if I can understand the theory of it, why or when would I apply it? How would a structured shape benifit me more than fluid, and vice-versa?

4. But on FM analysts can scout players. Or is it something else they're doing? Honestly, I'm lost here. 

 

33 minutes ago, BMNJohn said:

I suppose topics do tend to go full circle, where the old becomes new again, even before it had time to get old.

 

He does make some of the points I've made, the diference being he's a veteran and me a amateur. So it seems that the main problem with people struggling with FM is that they overcomplicate things, but how not to, given the complexity and amount of information and terms thrown at you, most of it actually being irrelevant and the rest not explained well enough to concieve a sound plan?

[masno]

1 minute ago, dudu281 said:

1. So I would guess that fluid shape would do the opposite, getting their mentalities closer together right? So even if I can understand the theory of it, why or when would I apply it? How would a structured shape benifit me more than fluid, and vice-versa?

4. But on FM analysts can scout players. Or is it something else they're doing? Honestly, I'm lost here. 

 

Fluid equals more creativity freedom and the play more like a unit, they defend together, they attack together. This is because the more fluid, lower will be your players mentality, so a striker can have the same mentality as your midfielder (this is not always true,maybe your roles changes this situation,remember this) and more structured means that your teams work in blocks, and your player look more to their ground then the hole pitch itself. If you want your players to be more expressive, and work more closely to each other,go fluid. If you expect then to follow orders, and stick to their positions/roles/duties, go structured. If you don't have idea, go flexible.

Analyst scout matches and goals from that given player, so they basically show you stats, and scouts scout the "player curriculum".

[DoubleDenimSuccess]

8 hours ago, dudu281 said:

4. But on FM analysts can scout players. Or is it something else they're doing? Honestly, I'm lost here. 

 

Analyst, analyse all the data per match on players/teams you want and collate all that information.

Scouts, scout the players potential ability, pros/cons of that player and hidden traits of the player ie preferred moves etc etc

[Svenc]

1. The bad thing about shape for newcomers is that it explicitly hints at old "under the hood" settings that have been out of the game for you to experiment yourself for like half a decade now. That setting is also an entirelly SI construct, often tweaked by them. Definitely agree with you there. Focus 100% on the basic formations, player roles and duties first. You don't need shape in any kind of way to overachieve, btw.

3. Defending for the AI can't be overpowered as there is no distinction made. You can drop deep and soak it all up yourself. If you insist on that there is such a distinction, your chance of learning how to play drops down to zero in an instant. Show me on your fixture list how many points you actually drop. Also consider that in real football all of those teams are managed by professionals who know their "stuff". In-game those top teams are managed by AI. If they don't drop that many points, so can you. You can do better than those.

Apart of that, all the points of mine have been raised in the thread @BMNJohn linked to. The only one I'd probably add is that this is probably a bit of a repeat cycle. The guys giving the most indepth feedback also tend to be the guys who know the game the most. Both players as well as staffers (by their profession). Frustration tends to express itself in rants -- or bad theory (such as AI being treated differently, see above), so tends to not be taken seriously, or can't be of much use for the coders, as they know that's not how the game works. An awful lot of FM fansites spread myths  how the game works also.

[dudu281]

3 hours ago, Svenc said:

3. Defending for the AI can't be overpowered as there is no distinction made. You can drop deep and soak it all up yourself. If you insist on that there is such a distinction, your chance of learning how to play drops down to zero in an instant. 
 

I wouldn't say that there is a distinction between me and the AI. If it all comes down to tactical instructions or better understanding/experience in dealing with such situations then it's fine. But how can I know without going to the forums or watching videos on youtube? My issue is not so much about the kind of problems I have playing matches as much as the amount of information (or lack of useful one) that I have at my disposal without any indication on how/what to use it to my benifit. 

Let's say that I have a upcoming match and my analyst says my opponent usually plays a defensive/structured 4-1-2-2-1, he also tells me their usual roles, how they press, how's their tempo, how they will tackle. Ok, so I know how they normally play but what do I do with that information? Ignore it and play my own way regardless? Change anything? If yes, then change what? Just a example here, but it displays my general issues with FM, whereas a more seasoned player will know better what to do (or not to do).

[MBarbaric]

1 ora fa, dudu281 ha scritto:

Ok, so I know how they normally play but what do I do with that information? Ignore it and play my own way regardless? Change anything? If yes, then change what? Just a example here, but it displays my general issues with FM, whereas a more seasoned player will know better what to do (or not to do).

that is basically what managers in real ask themselves when they get the opposition analysis report. There is no right/wrong answer to this question either. some managers will pay no attention to the opposition, some will do everything to counter it and most of them will judge case by case. 

1 ora fa, dudu281 ha scritto:

Let's say that I have a upcoming match and my analyst says my opponent usually plays a defensive/structured 4-1-2-2-1, he also tells me their usual roles, how they press, how's their tempo, how they will tackle.

to me it says the opposition will most likely sit deep, defend in numbers and attack with limited numbers trying to avoid being counter attacked. additionally, they might look for counter attacks themselves. 

If they are particularly dangerous on counter attacks,  try to see who is their most dangerous player in these situations (quick players, good off the ball and with ball at feet) and try to keep the zone this players plays in covered. changing your full back from attack to support might be enough to keep that dangerous player at bay. 

it is basically up to you and your assessment of how much you want to change your regular approach in light of specific opposition.

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, dudu281 said:

Ok, so I know how they normally play but what do I do with that information? Ignore it and play my own way regardless? Change anything? If yes, then change what? Just a example here, but it displays my general issues with FM, whereas a more seasoned player will know better what to do (or not to do).

I look at the scouting reports to figure out what roles they will be using, these tell me how they may play, big clues are the DFB and DCB roles. Next I watch the shots on goal and the shots that lead to the goal, these are usually found in the analyst reports for the match they focused on. This tells me what to focus on, the kind of goals they score, who is dangerous. I  verify my observations by going through the key pass combinations. 

Finally I watch a few matches, as I prepare for match day to determine if i need different kinds of players on the pitch. If I find that the AI is very strong at set pieces, i go to the game with players who are good at jumping reach, positioning. If they like to play fluid and have a defence that is low on concentration or whose positioning isn't as good as my players off the ball, I go with the boys who can move fast off the ball with acceleration. 

Thats basically how i prepare for games.

[XaW]

1 hour ago, dudu281 said:

Ok, so I know how they normally play but what do I do with that information? Ignore it and play my own way regardless? Change anything? If yes, then change what? Just a example here, but it displays my general issues with FM, whereas a more seasoned player will know better what to do (or not to do).

The game expect the user to know football in general, at last most concepts. It does not explain the offside rule or other more complicated rules. It's expected that football is not a foreign subject. Think about that as you will, but that's the basis of the game.  For a lot of things I agree with you. The game does not give enough information and it is quite hard to get the hold of for newer players. However, in the quoted part I really don't quite agree. The game cannot put it clearer than this unless you are looking at a "tutorial" style game? The report tells you how the opponent plays, if it told you how to change up your tactics then it's giving away the whole point of the game? I mean, that is the job of a manager to find out how to counter that, and that is part of the learning curve of the game itself, even for the more seasoned player. The more you fail the better you will be recognizing what work and what does not in each situations. This will change as your team changes, and I feel that the better the team you are the less you have to change to the opponent. This is because better players will do better that poorer ones and it demands more of the tactic to be successful with poorer players.

[craigd84]

I feel this game is the best game in terms of getting the users to use their initiatives. 

[Footix]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

I look at the scouting reports to figure out what roles they will be using, these tell me how they may play, big clues are the DFB and DCB roles. Next I watch the shots on goal and the shots that lead to the goal, these are usually found in the analyst reports for the match they focused on. This tells me what to focus on, the kind of goals they score, who is dangerous. I  verify my observations by going through the key pass combinations. 

Finally I watch a few matches, as I prepare for match day to determine if i need different kinds of players on the pitch. If I find that the AI is very strong at set pieces, i go to the game with players who are good at jumping reach, positioning. If they like to play fluid and have a defence that is low on concentration or whose positioning isn't as good as my players off the ball, I go with the boys who can move fast off the ball with acceleration. 

Thats basically how i prepare for games.

You know what I do? I click "pick team" and press space bar. 

To be fair, I don't win nearly as much as you do, though.

This game has grown so much over the years, it nearly feels like a full time job if playing it "properly". I have jumped ship to FMT. 

In that regard I agree with the OP; this game is brutal to newcomers. It's a massive load of information with no real guidance of what to do with it all. 

[Atarin]

I agree with the original poster that the game could be made a lot clearer. I've spoken before about the game needing more than just pop-ups that give you a brief explanation, what's really needed is a visual demonstration. Not everyone is going to have hours and hours to try every permutation to be able to fully understand what each setting does. Even an official guide or manual that linked the various ideas together, similar the Rashidi and Lines and Diamonds guides but with the developers seal of approval. It would remove all doubt.

My only advice to the original poster is that what worked for me was stripping everything back. Keep everything very simple. You don't have to use every setting in the game or worry about every aspect. Read Rashidi's guide and Lines and Diamonds because they're very informative and as close as you're going to get to definitive right now.

Learn about Roles and what the most important attributes are for each one. The better suited the player is to the Role you give him the better results you'll get.
Learn about Duties and how they adjust the Roles style of play.
Learn about formations and what they're for.
Learn about Mentality and the role it plays in your teams style of play and methods.

You don't have to learn the whole thing at once. Get the basics down, one at a time.

What are Roles and what do they do?
What are Duties and what do they do?
What are Formantions and what do they do?
What is Mentality and what does it do?
 

You can ignore Shape for now. It is a useful tool but I think its best left until you've got the rest of the tools working for you.

 

[CaptainSa]

I mean FM Touch/Classic/whatever its called now is right there...

[Svenc]

5 hours ago, XaW said:

The game expect the user to know football in general, at last most concepts. It does not explain the offside rule or other more complicated rules. It's expected that football is not a foreign subject. Think about that as you will, but that's the basis of the game. 

Yup. And that you won't find anywhere in-game (though if you let the assistant take over, he has solutions).  How do sides in football increase the likelyhood of scoring against packed defenses? Where is the space on the pitch that allows teams to control the pitch / establish a possession based game? What is a legit  man management/motivational as well as match preparation strategy when dealing with a superior opposition away? However, the game is sold to your bang average football fan. I don't mean that in a condescending way -- you can appreciate football in all kinds of ways, each are legit. However, inevitably, it also attracts players who enjoy football purely from the emotional side of things. Nothing wrong with that. From my experience despite all the aforementioned concerns of mine those are who struggle the most. From my end, the game has gotten me a little interested in a few stuff that I didn't look much at all before. I think it's also helped some . However, that interest to dig further may not be there to begin with. To me SI have never really settled on a really specific target, but if in general it's working for them, you can't blame them.

As for the information "Overload" -- the irony is that quite a few of the stuff introduced was done to "spoon feed" players. Ten years old games had tons less feedback. However, if there's too much of an information "front load", then that's counter intuitive to an extent. As you may not now what to really focus on at all. The game meanwhile has also really really bad feedback, too. Not going into all of it again... but dropping a few key words/phrases such as the "how did he miss that" punditry cliche lines played alongside chances that from experience justified are at best 50/50 chances if at all. The assman in-match feeds based solely on simple statistics. The CCCs (the half chances, oft overlooked are actually worse, as nobody seems to get that those mostly seem to represent long-term average 1 in 6 chances at very best). The post match reports being based on shot volumes. You could go on and on and on. I'd be really curious if SI themselves consider all of this actually useful, and whether they actually use much of it when playing. I ignore all of this happily, as most of it at worst is nonsense and at best misleading. All of this was naturally, too, once introduced with the best of intentions.

[adam delmon]

hi I have had all previous fm games for last 5 years can any1 help cant go to in game match the games keep simulating matches any1 no how I can stop this

[Atarin]

1 hour ago, adam delmon said:

hi I have had all previous fm games for last 5 years can any1 help cant go to in game match the games keep simulating matches any1 no how I can stop this

You need to post this in the bugs forum.