SI out of touch with the average FM fan?

[Suzie MUFC]

In the past, whenever someone came up with the suggestion of 3D, one of the most used responses was "I like FM as it is with 2D because it means I can play it with my low-spec PC, and I don't have the money to upgrade it, or want the hassle of needing to. That's why I love FM." Surely SI must've seen the numerous responses along these lines and taken note?

SI's decision to introduce 3D seems more of a business battle to keep up with CM and FIFA (when they never needed to), and forgetting what their userbase really wants or needs. They've said themselves, the whole point of these forums is to keep in touch with their userbase and take on board the feedback given. Why didn't they just listen to the majority, and instead improve 2D after what happened last year?

[jags4ever]

You use 5 yo tech and expect it to run a game out this year ? Insane

Its like expecting PS3 games to run on a PS1 thats a fair comparrison IMO.

[PaulC]

This is why we are doing 3D:

- Because sometimes you have to make progress, and challenge yourselves creatively. We'd resisted it for so long and 2D was great but you have to move on.

- Because we think that we can do a good job of it, although like 2D it will develop at its own pace. If we didnt think we could do it we wouldnt. This is our first stab at it, and tbh I am not surprised at the polarised opinions I am reading on these forums today.

CM using it is irrelevant. Besides, haven't they been doing 3D for a couple of years? I think theirs is animated next year, but the first I heard of that was quite recently. The decision to go 3D for FM2009 was made 2 years ago or so, and we've been working on it for a little over 1 year, not 3.

For those who don't think its ready, or can't run it, then the old 2D is still there and wont be going anywhere.

[Ozzy38]

I am replying to a PM I received:

The buyers don't give a shizzle. If they're buying CM just because it has a match engine, they're buying it just because it has a match engine.

This is what you wrote, I will break it down into little pieces for your tiny mind to process ok!!

I said if CM had 3D and FM had 2D people would have a reason to choose CM over FM. You getting me so far.

The 3D engine being a reason to buy CM over FM because it only had a 2D engine.

You said

If they're buying CM just because it has a match engine, they're buying it just because it has a match engine.

Both 3d and 2D are classed as match engines so wtf are you on about.

Stop trying to bite your own ear and get a ****ing grip on reality you thick ******.

Make sense for you now?

If you are too simple to answer your own question and STILL not understand, that is not my problem. It was clear I was referring to 3D match engines.

Btw, those who resort to swearing and angry insults are always the ones who have lost the argument. Sending these insults by PM is another clue too.

EDIT: D'oh, gotta beaten to it by an SIer. Still, do you understand now JoblessManager?

[Macgyver0]

You use 5 yo tech and expect it to run a game out this year ? Insane

Its like expecting PS3 games to run on a PS1 thats a fair comparrison IMO.

We were led to believe that the game would still work in 2d like the previous years with our specs were not good enough to handle 3d but new added 3d format doesn't allow computers that don't have the correct spec to even start the game.

[treble_yell_:-)]

clearly SI have lost touch, i mean seriously, needing a pc built in the last 3 years ? what the hell were they thinking.

I also think its hilarious the OP seems to think they know what the FM community want, who made you voice of the people ?

Some of the claims made today have been ******** in all honesty, people crying because their uni pc they bought for £200 3 years ago not being able to play it, claims the 3d is aimed at console kiddies (even though the games 3d would be laughed at by that demographic)

PC tech moves forward, you dont need a £1500 pc to run FM09, but at the same time you do need reasonable specs, in fairness to SI, the system specs are broader than almost ANY other game you will play on a pc.

Just because you post here does not make you the average FM fan, the game sold 1mill copies last year ? and you will be lucky if 1% of those users use these forums. You do not talk for me, and i suspect you do not talk for the majority of fm fans

[Ikoru]

The problem is that more and more people get laptops instead of desktops. So, people that realize that they can't play the game on the laptop they used for FM08 can't just upgrade it with a new cheap graphics card - They need to buy a new laptop.

No one should ever buy a laptop with an intergrated graphics card, they are useful for anything and they are just a con. The only things you can do is play old games, browse the internet and word processing.

This is why we are doing 3D:

- Because sometimes you have to make progress, and challenge yourselves creatively. We'd resisted it for so long and 2D was great but you have to move on.

- Because we think that we can do a good job of it, although like 2D it will develop at its own pace. If we didnt think we could do it we wouldnt. This is our first stab at it, and tbh I am not surprised at the polarised opinions I am reading on these forums today.

CM using it is irrelevant. Besides, haven't they been doing 3D for a couple of years? I think theirs is animated next year, but the first I heard of that was quite recently. The decision to go 3D for FM2009 was made 2 years ago or so, and we've been working on it for a little over 1 year, not 3.

For those who don't think its ready, or can't run it, then the old 2D is still there and wont be going anywhere.

Exactly, 3D is needed and has so much potential, it's not perfect currently but with a few updates or changes before it goes live then it might just be a lot more playable. It's a shame we will have to wait for the coming years before the full potential of 3D is realised though. Maybe then people will not complain about PC specs then.

[MaidenMadness]

CM using it is irrelevant. Besides, haven't they been doing 3D for a couple of years?

nope. all cms after the split had basically similar 2d, only difference is that it was isometric, not from a birds view and it wasn't blobs but figures of players but there was no animation and they moved and acted like blobs. basically some mix between 2d and 3d with much more elements of 2d in it.

been keeping an eye on on cm series every year. you really should check cms series out a bit. in the past installations (can't say for this years as i haven't checked out cm 09 yet) fm was the better game with better database, better ai all in all a completely better football management game, but cm has some nice options which i think could find their place in fm series as well

[DietSpam]

SI out of touch with the average FM fan? You mean those who have rotten computers that can't support a simple game like fm? It's a very small minority - Believe me.

[Ozzy38]

JoblessManager, not quite sure why you're now hiding and sending me PMs of general insults. Could you not just go "my bad, I misunderstood"? If you're so confident you did not misunderstand, why are you only doing it via PM?

My point is very valid and as PaulC said 3D was not about rivals or sales in particular, especially as CM, LMA and FIFA and nearly every obscure football management game has a 3D match engine.

P.S. I don't know what you mean about me working at McDonalds either, do McDonalds hire people working towards a PhD qualification in Astrophysics? "I'll have fries with that, Doctor" isn't quite as catchy.

[JoblessManager]

To say that it has nothing to do with CM running with it is very naive. A direct competitor to your game has to be monitored in some way especially giving the nature of the original split. You are competing for customers and by not including 3D this year knowing that CM 09 would be using it would have given people a genuine reason to think about choosing CM over FM.

[Ozzy38]

It's not naive when all the other competitors had been doing it years before the turn of the century, yet FM still broke records with its sales and had a very secure fanbase.

CM is no more a rival than FIFA, LMA, USM etc. etc.

[eaglealan64]

Perhaps most importantly SI seems to have completely overestimated the computer specifications of a very large group of their customers. I think that FM has always appealed to a different group of people than many other games. Lots of loyal FM fans are not (and have never been) "hardcore gamers", so because of the increased hardware requirements they are now finding it impossible to play this newest installment of the game.

Totally agree - I've got a decent system:

XP

2gb Ram

AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 3800+

256MB ATI Radeon X1300PRO

Could run FM2008 with literally dozens of Leagues no problem but FM 2009, gave up after an excrutiating 15 minutes where I got as far as the introductory screen. Responses are so slow it is just unplayable :-(

[JoblessManager]

It broke records because CM never had anything to offer above FM. LMA and FIFA are well behind in terms of realism when it comes to management regardless how long they had 3D.

When Championship Manager became Football Manager everybody knew which would be the best out of the two. It may be a case of CM finding out that FM was running with 3D and they decided to implement it aswell but it isn't a coincidence that both 09 versions will have their first ever implementation of 3D.

[MaidenMadness]

It's not naive when all the other competitors had been doing it years before the turn of the century, yet FM still broke records with its sales and had a very secure fanbase.

CM is no more a rival than FIFA, LMA, USM etc. etc.

i disagree. fifa, lma, usm are going for something that is completely different than what fm is. they use different philosophies.

cm is different however. in terms of philosophy its going by exactly the same philosophy fm is as a serious football management game rather than an arcade. difference is that after split si got the match engine and the database while eidos got the name but when it comes to the core that makes the whole game tick they had to start from scratch. in that department si was already 15-20 years ahead of eidos.

but as someone who has been closely following both series i can see the progress that cm series has made since the split and i can compare it with progress fm has made. cm is progressing at much bigger rate than fm. reason is very simple fm is at the top they set the standards and when you do that your rate of innovations is lower than if you are catching up.

imo fm is still ahead, but cm is closing in fast. difference between the two games isn't anywhere near as big as it was in 2005. if both series continue their current trend of development within couple of years cm will probably be on par with fm. thats the main difference. between cm and fifa, lma, usm...

[JoblessManager]

"cm is different however. in terms of philosophy its going by exactly the same philosophy fm is as a serious football management game"

And thus the addition of 3D, rendering 1 more attractive than the other.

[Hamselv]

No one should ever buy a laptop with an intergrated graphics card, they are useful for anything and they are just a con. The only things you can do is play old games, browse the internet and word processing.

I’m sure all the people that are at the moment using their laptops to play that extremely old game called FM08 agrees with you

I also think its hilarious the OP seems to think they know what the FM community want, who made you voice of the people ?

If you weren't so busy padding yourself on the back for clearly being the smartest guy registered on these forums, you would perhaps have had the time to actually read my first post:

Having observed many of the complaints made these last days...

I would imagine that might just indicate that my original post was mostly based on the many complaints I've read in this forum these last days. So, since so many people seems to be unhappy with the most recent developments in FM, a discussion as to why seemed relevant. Since you seem to have all the answers, I guess I should have just asked you instead

By the way, after reading my first post again I couldn't help seeing things like:

So, I guess my suggestion for SI is to…

and

Just my opinion…

So, I am slightly interested in hearing exactly where I claim to be the "voice of the people".

[MSCCG]

Yeah, they've lost touch with the REAL fans, the fans who play it religiously every weekend and start games with lower league clubs and play for hours and hours. Those are the REAL fans.

The real fans are the ones who represent small-town values, the ones who don't have high end computers, but that doesn't matter because unlike the rich FAKE fans, they have values, they really do care about the FM series, so much that they will vehemently resist any change at all, knowing that there has already been enough change, ever since the days of CM93/94, when the game was only distributed in the UK (damn foreigners playing our games now), and there was no talk of a match engine or advanced interface.

So come on SI, know who your REAL fans are, they are the ones who truly care deeply about your game and would never threaten to quit the game after playing for over a decade and will stick by the game no matter what, BUT they should also have the divine right to control the game however they like, reverting to the good old days when you needed little more than a cardboard box with an electric cable stuck to it to play the game. The FAKE fans aren't real, they want to play the game only because of the "improvements" that you have made to the game, they want to SPREAD THE WEALTH, make it more accessible to everyone. They're like all damn socialists, I tell you. This is NO TIME to experiment with socialism. We need to act NOW, while we still have a chance to solve this crisis.

[Citizen Ross]

I'm sorry, but to me this seems like an over reaction. The 3D is not perfect, but is the same as the 2D- the issues such as players standing still etc are just as visible in the 2D engine and always have been - it's just easier to imagine that the player is moving around still but not much because the blob is so big. When it's in 3D with limited animations it does look like the players go to sleep at times. I remember when 2D first came out and people said exactly the same thing = we'll never use it / looks rubbish etc. I for one have been dreaming of the day that a decent 3D management game would come out, and although this engine still needs work, and as always there are bugs (why do Everton constantly try to pay £3.2M for Petrov when I always reject it for example) it is still IMHO revolutionary. If you look back through the games that have tried this approach, this is the first that has really got any degree of realism and varety, as well as a feeling of control in it.

[treble_yell_:-)]

I would imagine that might just indicate that my original post was mostly based on the many complaints I've read in this forum these last days. So, since so many people seems to be unhappy with the most recent developments in FM, a discussion as to why seemed relevant. Since you seem to have all the answers, I guess I should have just asked you instead

You need a reality check mate , tell you what go take a look at some popular gaming forums

say world of warcraft, 10 million paying subs......the official GD is full of people saying it and the devs suck

Far Cry 2 , critically acclaimed , missive seller , forums full of people saying it and the devs suck

Fallout 3 , majority 90% review scores , massive seller , forums full of people saying it sucks.

If you think GD here represents a snap shot of SI's userbase then your naive , in fact there is a pretty large contingent of long time FM players who wont even come here any more because the forum is full of trolls and whiners.

The forum has become such a cesspool it prompted miles to write a sticky about the attitude here, forums do not represent communities, forums have become nothing more than an outlet for angst and general asshattery , there is a growing trend for devs to not even bother supporting official forums .

[kiwityke]

What's the problem here? You can still use the 2D engine, you know. They have improved it -- if you're not happy don't buy it. Simple.

Thats a joke the 2d match engine is turd. Also I am in the same boat as a fair number of people who have a machine capable of running the 3d match engine yet the game chooses not to let me run it.

[Rb]

Thats a joke the 2d match engine is turd. Also I am in the same boat as a fair number of people who have a machine capable of running the 3d match engine yet the game chooses not to let me run it.

You really are wrong if you think the 2d match engine is turd. Its been worked on and gone through almost 100 versions on Football manager live. Its the same one used on there and is frankly the closest to real life anyone has ever made for a 2d match engine.

[Internomad]

Having observed many of the complaints made these last days, I have to say that to me most seem to be caused by SI no longer being in touch with a large part of their customers.

It has often been seen that as a company grows larger and larger, the people involved starts to forget why they ever became successful in the first place. In the case of SI, most of the people involved have always more or less represented the same group of people as the potential customers. Because of that, things that inside SI towers were considered good ideas or good additions to the game, were also appreciated by the fans.

Sadly that seems to no longer be the case. A few decisions regarding FM09 seem to be based on a lack of knowledge about the average FM gamer.

Perhaps most importantly SI seems to have completely overestimated the computer specifications of a very large group of their customers. I think that FM has always appealed to a different group of people than many other games. Lots of loyal FM fans are not (and have never been) "hardcore gamers", so because of the increased hardware requirements they are now finding it impossible to play this newest installment of the game.

Furthermore SI seems to have completely underestimated the number of loyal fans who do not want to see SI follow EA down the dark road of restricting honest customers with DRM.

The complaints about the increased (realistic?) number of injuries seen in the demo, also seems to indicate that SI's attempt to keep an acceptable balance between "realism" and "fun", might no longer be completely in sync with what a majority of the fans want. I have seen that a patch will be released to slightly address the length of some of these injuries though.

So, I guess my suggestion for SI is to, at least for a while, stop spending time on figuring out even more ways to make money - like the ingame advertisements in FM09, and start spending more time on understanding your customers.

Just my opinion, so feel free to disagree

You make an awful lot of assumptions without backing them up with facts!

[Peester]

Having just downloaded the demo and played 2 1/2 friendlies I feel that people are being a little too harsh. The only problem with the 3D view is that it's too jerky for my computer, I tried to go into the 2D view and that was jerky too. But then again, the whole game is too slow for my spec of machine even though I loved what I played of the demo. The only reason I probably won't buy the game is because my computer isn't good enough to run it. It's back to FM 07 for me, I'm afraid.

[Kriss]

Yeah, they've lost touch with the REAL fans, the fans who play it religiously every weekend and start games with lower league clubs and play for hours and hours. Those are the REAL fans.

The real fans are the ones who represent small-town values, the ones who don't have high end computers, but that doesn't matter because unlike the rich FAKE fans, they have values, they really do care about the FM series, so much that they will vehemently resist any change at all, knowing that there has already been enough change, ever since the days of CM93/94, when the game was only distributed in the UK (damn foreigners playing our games now), and there was no talk of a match engine or advanced interface.

So come on SI, know who your REAL fans are, they are the ones who truly care deeply about your game and would never threaten to quit the game after playing for over a decade and will stick by the game no matter what, BUT they should also have the divine right to control the game however they like, reverting to the good old days when you needed little more than a cardboard box with an electric cable stuck to it to play the game. The FAKE fans aren't real, they want to play the game only because of the "improvements" that you have made to the game, they want to SPREAD THE WEALTH, make it more accessible to everyone. They're like all damn socialists, I tell you. This is NO TIME to experiment with socialism. We need to act NOW, while we still have a chance to solve this crisis.

Love it:D good irony is usually wasted in this place though.

[Hamselv]

You make an awful lot of assumptions without backing them up with facts!

Most of the issues I mention should be easily seen in a lot of the threads on just the first few pages on this forum. You are right though that to claim that these issues are based on a lack of knowledge about the users is an assumption. If not however, it would mean that SI has deliberately chosen to exclude a large group of existing fans from playing FM09, which I highly doubt.

Love it:D good irony is usually wasted in this place though.

Sometimes it's just ignored

[Indi75]

SI and their producers have been in touch with us and answered our questions in nearly every aspect, so how are they out of touch??

I agree, SI are likely the one developer who spends more time with it's fans than any other, to call them out of touch is naive and typical of some of todays prepubescent hysteria.

I find the match engine not choppy at all from the elevated view.

Same here, infact I can scroll with the mouse wheel from camera to camera without issue. I've posted a link to defrag tools like Puran on a few threads today. You'd be surprised what a little PC housekeeping does for any game.

I'm willing to bet SI have a much better idea of what the 'average FM fan' is than anyone in this thread does.

They do after all have an entire community in here sharing thoughts, idea's and grievances every day. Some of it constructive, most of it not.

Not because the fans wanted the 3D, because a rival game was implementing it their hand was forced.

That rival game you mention sells nowhere near as many copies and has been late to release on several occasions. It's also light years behind, incomparable to FM, and more like crappy old LMA these days.

Is the FM09 technology the same as the CM09 technology?

No, 'cos FM09's engine came from SEGA's Virtua Striker dev team did it not?

[Glyn]

Up until last year both CM and FM didn't have 3D, when SI heard CM were running with the new technology they had to jump on board regardless of how good it looked or was implemented, it's that simple.

How does that fit in with the timeline of SI having started to think about 3D three years ago?

[Number Nine]

Totally agree - I've got a decent system:

XP

2gb Ram

AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 3800+

256MB ATI Radeon X1300PRO

Could run FM2008 with literally dozens of Leagues no problem but FM 2009, gave up after an excrutiating 15 minutes where I got as far as the introductory screen. Responses are so slow it is just unplayable :-(

Must be a bug rather than lack of horsepower because I'm running a Core2 Duo @ 1.66Ghz, 2Gb RAM, ATI X1400 mobile on XP and it works very smoothly for me.

[davehanson]

I would completely disagree with the statement you made at the top. The DRM has been brought in because piracy takes away so much of their funding for future versions.

The graphics are hardly hardcore either, You could buy a £30 graphics card that will play the game completely fine. The one I'm using cost me £40 a month ago and runs it perfectly.

I don't think the decision to introduce DRM into FM09 has anything to do with piracy, more to do with people selling games on after they have done with them. DRM will not stop pirates coping the game. Hell, Red Alert 3 was out on Friday 31st, yet pirated versions of the game were out on tuesday or wednesday of the week before.

Fm09 will undoubtably suffer the same, anyone who really wants to crack the game will do, no matter what publishers or developers try to do to stop it.

[Glyn]

Thats a joke the 2d match engine is turd. Also I am in the same boat as a fair number of people who have a machine capable of running the 3d match engine yet the game chooses not to let me run it.

The 2D match engine is exactly the same as the 3D match engine. The only difference is in how the results of the engine's calculations are displayed.

[Goofy]

I got an Acer Aspire 1692. Nearly 4 years old and it runs ok.

Bit slower than FM08, but what did you expect..

I even like the 3D. There is a difference between a pass and a header. Something you couldn't see in 2D.

Thusfar I'm fan of the transfersystem as well (no more I bid 10M, they ask 20. I bid 15 they ask 24).

Only thing I 'miss' are the arrows but they explained why they removed em, so no problem. I'll just have to addopt my gameplay a bit.

[JoblessManager]

How does that fit in with the timeline of SI having started to think about 3D three years ago?

The 3D output for both FM09 and CM09 so far looks to be indentical. Does the technology belong solely to SEGA or is it a 3rd party who has worked closely with them. If it is purely SEGA's then they want to take a look at the CM's 3D match engine.

Like you have said the 2D match engine is identical to the 3D one other than the way it is outputted onto the screen. Motion capture was mentioned I think in podcasts or threads on here.

[millsy1982]

Having read just some of the comment on here (I couldn't be bothered to read them all), I have to say I don't think SI are out of touch. I have no issue with the 3-D match engine, progress is necessary in all aspects of technology. My major issue is that the game, as it stands at the moment, is unplayable on my computer which cost over £800 and is less than a year old. I have had no problems with any other games that I own and I consider myself to be a PC gamer. How can a very decent desktop PC not be able to play this game without freezing is just plain silly and this issue needs addressing the very second the game is released. Whoever SI got to do there testing need to look a long hard look in the mirror. How did these problems go unnoticed? Surely somebody would have encountered the many problems that are getting listed on these forums.

I read somewhere on these forums that Miles has played this game on his laptop that is around 2 years old (if my memory serves me correctly), so how is it that people with more upto date computers cannot get the game to run at all or (like me) have to mess around with screen resoloutions and having to play it in a windowed mode (which I find very uncofatable)? I think SI would take a lot less stick if somebody came out and said "we've dropped a ball, with some aspects of the game". The clamour and hype surronding this game has meant that (in my eyes) it has/is going to be released to early and that it should have been put back so such glaring errors had been addressed.

[playmaker]

The average FM fan was crying out for something to be done about the poor transfer system. SI have rewritten the module from scratch.

The average FM fan complained about the inability to judge ball height in the match engine. SI gave us 3D.

SI felt that the arrows were holding back the match engine, so they tried it out with FM Live so that the average FM fan could have their say.

The average FM fan wanted press conferences, they got them.

The average FM fan would probably have liked some more team talks and additional features in training - well OK, we haven't got everything.

Regarding 3D there were three distinct camps, the definite yes's, the wait and sees and the no thank yous. Two of those groups were happy to see SI have a go.

If SI have produced a 3D view that not everyone can play with it isn't because they are out of touch with the average fan - it is simply because they are on a steep learning curve.

Every year we have the same thing. SI are out of touch, the game is full of bugs, this is the worst one yet, etc. etc. Every year the game goes to number 1 in the charts.

[brucey]

Have to agree with the original post.

SI are not the people to take the game forward.

[Super Bladesman]

What brucey? It's kind of, like, their game... We don't get to pick someone else

[Mahr]

I really agree with the opening post. I'm not one of the 'hardcore' gamers with tons of cash to splash on computer upgrades, especially for one title alone. FM08 was the only game I played and enjoyed - I'm one of those who can't use the 3d, and even the 2d is demanding too much compared to 08.

[MSCCG]

The average FM fan was crying out for something to be done about the poor transfer system. SI have rewritten the module from scratch.

The average FM fan complained about the inability to judge ball height in the match engine. SI gave us 3D.

SI felt that the arrows were holding back the match engine, so they tried it out with FM Live so that the average FM fan could have their say.

The average FM fan wanted press conferences, they got them.

The average FM fan would probably have liked some more team talks and additional features in training - well OK, we haven't got everything.

Regarding 3D there were three distinct camps, the definite yes's, the wait and sees and the no thank yous. Two of those groups were happy to see SI have a go.

If SI have produced a 3D view that not everyone can play with it isn't because they are out of touch with the average fan - it is simply because they are on a steep learning curve.

Every year we have the same thing. SI are out of touch, the game is full of bugs, this is the worst one yet, etc. etc. Every year the game goes to number 1 in the charts.

Wait, are you even a real fan? If you're not, how dare you have an opinion about the game? You have to fulfill strict criterias before you can be considered a true fan.

1. Have you played FM for over a decade, at the least? Preferably you'll talk about the Amiga series etc also.

2. Do you play FM every week and play it in every way, and do whatever you can with it, not unlike what a guy would to a hot girlfriend?

3. Is FM the only game you play? You can't be a real fan unless you are completely dedicated.

4. Does your computer meet the requirements for the game? You can't be a real fan of the game if you can play it, I mean come on!

5. Do you have any critical views which are highly exaggerated and based upon hearsay and personal experience and conspiracy about FM that only true fans can fathom and agree with? It's not fair if you don't.

6. Finally, would you associate yourself with a) Hardcore gamer dude kind of guy or b) average Joe don't know much, but I know I love it kind of guy? You have to be an average Joe to have opinions about things.

If you don't meet ALL of the above criteria, then I'm sorry, your opinion is ****. I can't trust you because you're not a real fan and you don't have what's best for the game in mind, you only care about yourself.

alright, back to playing the demo!

[humanriff]

^^^^ seconded

[ronaldo_rooney]

MSCCG - your a weird guy, saying u should treat FM as if it were your "hot girlfriend". i take it that u have few friends, if any at all! u would be one of very, very few people who would meet those criteria and it is us (normal people) who are not interested in your ridiculously absurd opinion!!!!!!!!!!

[Hamselv]

MSCCG - your a weird guy, saying u should treat FM as if it were your "hot girlfriend". i take it that u have few friends, if any at all! u would be one of very, very few people who would meet those criteria and it is us (normal people) who are not interested in your ridiculously absurd opinion!!!!!!!!!!

He was trying to be funny.

With this attempt at sarcasm, he was specifically trying to make fun at some of the people in this thread who dare to not agree with all the decisions that SI make.

You see, sometimes when certain people don't have anything meaningful to add to a discussion, they will simply attempt to ruin it. So they enter the thread and occasionally try to be funny, sometimes they'll just try to insult some of the people participating in the discussion, and once in a while they get very bold and attempt to use sarcasm, by which they can achieve both insults and humor at the same time.

[MSCCG]

He was trying to be funny.

With this attempt at sarcasm, he was trying to make fun at some of the people in this thread who dare to not agree with all the decisions that SI make.

Actually I was attempting to draw comparisons to U.S. Conservatives we have had the pleasure of encountering during this year's U.S. presidential campaign. You know, the one's you see on TV blabbering about things they don't know about. You know, people who like to believe that they are Maverick's, but at the same time continuously referring to tradition and overused cliches. The one's blowing things completely out of proportion in an attempt to fit in and be distinct, and trying to present an original point of view (this is called "group polarization" in psychology). The one's who seem to believe that one group should be preferred over another, similar to Elitism but then strangely warping their opinion of superiority to suit their own image of tradition rather than objectively deciding what the elite actually is, in an attempt to justify their opinion (this is "cognitive dissonance", when people adjust their views to match what they do). The one's who label other people as ignorant or socialist or even deliberately damaging things, but refusing to be labeled themselves, believing their own opinion is based on rational thinking, based on the situation while others' are completely dependent on their own misguided judgment (this can be "actor-observer effect" or "fundamental attribution error"). The one's who believe that improvements must be made to the system, but at the same time wish to blindly stick to traditional methods instead of exploring alternatives and making a rational decision to possibly decide between the two (this is called "being stupid"). Lastly, these are the people who hate John Stewart.

[Hamselv]

Actually I was attempting to draw comparisons to U.S. Conservatives we have had the pleasure of encountering during this year's U.S. presidential campaign. You know, the one's you see on TV blabbering about things they don't know about. You know, people who like to believe that they are Maverick's, but at the same time continuously referring to tradition and overused cliches. The one's blowing things completely out of proportion in an attempt to fit in and be distinct, and trying to present an original point of view (this is called "group polarization" in psychology). The one's who seem to believe that one group should be preferred over another, similar to Elitism but then strangely warping their opinion of superiority to suit their own image of tradition rather than objectively deciding what the elite actually is, in an attempt to justify their opinion (this is "cognitive dissonance", when people adjust their views to match what they do). The one's who label other people as ignorant or socialist or even deliberately damaging things, but refusing to be labeled themselves, believing their own opinion is based on rational thinking, based on the situation while others' are completely dependent on their own misguided judgment (this can be "actor-observer effect" or "fundamental attribution error"). The one's who believe that improvements must be made to the system, but at the same time wish to blindly stick to traditional methods instead of exploring alternatives and making a rational decision to possibly decide between the two (this is called "being stupid"). Lastly, these are the people who hate John Stewart.

The problem is that I don't really see any of the elitism that you are so against. My initial post was meant as sort of a "heads up" for SI, since many of the threads we see these days, seems to indicate that SI is on the verge of leaving a fair amount of existing customers behind. That's usually not a good thing for any company, and I would guess not for SI either.

Most of the people that have argumented against SI in this thread are people that are against some of these new changes, not because of some fear of change, but because they simply can't run the damn game. So, exactly why you feel the need to post things that seem to belong more on some "vote for Obama" board than in this thread is beyond me. US conservatism and people not being able to run FM09 on their laptops isn't particularly comparable in my mind.

Oh, and by the way, trying to fit as many fancy words into a sentence as possible to appear smarter than one actually is, is an attempt to strive towards elitism.

[Drunk Beware]

I totally agree with the OP. I tell you what though i am looking alot more forward to FMH.

[hoppie00]

This is why we are doing 3D:

- Because sometimes you have to make progress, and challenge yourselves creatively. We'd resisted it for so long and 2D was great but you have to move on.

- Because we think that we can do a good job of it, although like 2D it will develop at its own pace. If we didnt think we could do it we wouldnt. This is our first stab at it, and tbh I am not surprised at the polarised opinions I am reading on these forums today.

CM using it is irrelevant. Besides, haven't they been doing 3D for a couple of years? I think theirs is animated next year, but the first I heard of that was quite recently. The decision to go 3D for FM2009 was made 2 years ago or so, and we've been working on it for a little over 1 year, not 3.

For those who don't think its ready, or can't run it, then the old 2D is still there and wont be going anywhere.

Thanks for responding Paul, this is why SiGames is so respected by its loyal customers, because you guys clearly care about our opinions to the game and want us to have the best experience.

I think a lot of the opinions on the boards today mirror those of a few years ago when 2D was first introduced, many people back then were very very sceptical, complaining about many of the same things that have been mentioned today. Times and technology change, a competitive and long lasting business is one that evolves and changes in tune to it's environment, Si have done that and although some will love it and some will hate it remember that this is their first go at 3D.

Look what they managed to do with 2D, give them a chance and i'm sure they'll deliver, can you really say they've let you down so far over the how many years you've been playing CM/FM?

[T4RG4]

I've had hundreds and hundreds of hours out of the FM series and I'm sure I'll continue to, its an exceptional management game, especially when compared to the current alternatives. What I do not think can really be argued against is that FM could (should?) be a little further ahead in terms of features, presentation and stability than it is this year (and Ive said this for the past couple of versions at least). I would think back further but its late

Perhaps some people are getting a little carried away with criticism because, deep down, they love this series and the developers - they just get upset when their baby comes out a little messy each year... erm, I'll get my coat. hoppie00 - I agree with you in some respects, more and more people will enjoy the 3D Match Engine when its improved but I can trot out the same comment used when 2D arrived... 'yes, its a step forward, but its not working properly yet and should perhaps have launched in a better state'. I could understand if this was the developers first footie management game, but I dont think it is. There is a difference between making an entirely new game and some new modules for a series you have been regarded as the masters of for a long time. FM comes across as a game designed and made by some passionate coders, and I'm sure that is the actual reality

Can I ask how many people are actually on the FM team? I doubt you have a huge, huge team but I'm just interested. Has it increased since Sega came on-board?

[Kriss]

Most of the people that have argumented against SI in this thread are people that are against some of these new changes, not because of some fear of change, but because they simply can't run the damn game. So, exactly why you feel the need to post things that seem to belong more on some "vote for Obama" board than in this thread is beyond me. US conservatism and people not being able to run FM09 on their laptops isn't particularly comparable in my mind.

Oh, and by the way, trying to fit as many fancy words into a sentence as possible to appear smarter than one actually is, is an attempt to strive towards elitism.

I disagree with your views on quite a lot, but in this you have my vote.

Hamselv for President;) (as long as his speeches only contain words of one syllable)

[Svenc]

I

Me and my friends call the game Football Janitor now as it is too far gone with it's in depth dross that most people don't have time to bother with, making the game much like a job. You could choose to ignore all the gubbings of the game but it is so essential that you deal with it nowadays that it's hard to keep your job otherwise.

I'm fairly new to the fold, just came in with FM08 actually, but I'd wholeheartedly disagree. While the learning-curve sure is rather steep (truly interactive tutorials might help), once you're in, it's YOUR game. It's up to YOU how it turns out to be. Really, the beauty of this game is that it can be played as hardcore as you like - and that is very much very hardcore, a very good thing for very much every football nerd out there, really - while it's perfectly possible to just fire it up and play it a more casual way.

Don't like to set up training? Fine. Let the assistants do it. Don't like to spend an hour on each match day? Fine. Crank up the speed and watch the highlights only. Don't like to fiddle around with tactics? That's what predetermined settings for each position and assistant advice are for. Don't like to spend an hour at the press conference? Good. Let your assistant do the job.

That list goes on and on... the thing is: If you want it, you can make this thing the most immersive, in-depth portrayal of the Wide World Of Football (well, most of it), if you want to. And what you consider to be such, and where it crosses the line to busy-works is all up to you. You could spend days scouting lower-league players during a live-match if you wanted to. You could establish personal relationships with every manager under the sun if you wanted to. You could attend the World Cup final and enjoy the fire works. You could do so very, very much - how much of it you want to do is entirelly up to you.

(SI, I want your babies.)

[T4RG4]

Totally agree with Svenc

I can spend hours in the areas I wish to (usually manually looking up players I've read about in the latest footie mag or newspaper with a view to scouting/perhaps buying - oh so sad, but dont tell anyone).

You dont have to do that, you can send scouts out to do that for you, or just pick famous players you know of. It's probably quite tricky for newcomers to get into. I thought CM (now FM) was daunting, but I stuck at it and became hooked.