Flares

[klettec]

What decides whether your supporters will light pyro or not? Is it possible to change some settings in the editor to make your supporters use them?

[mark1985]

no pyro no party

[klettec]

Damn right!

[forameuss]

Yeah, I often find myself out and think "yeah, its good, but it'd be better if I set fire to something"

Imagine its something in the code, there's certainly no explicit database field which controls it directly.

[nine_iron]

Get them out the game IMO, bad example

[Tony Wright 747]

I think it depends on which league you are in.  I saw it a lot in a danish save and once or twice in the MLS, but i have never seen it in a British save.

[Smurf]

Flares are banned under football laws. They shouldn't be in the game. I agree they are a bad example.

 

 

 

[mark1985]

I've made this argument before, but having flares in FM doesn't encourage people to go out and use them. In the same way that watching the Sopranos doesn't make me want to join the mafia or watching a documentary on terrorism wants me to go and blow myself up. It's  a stupid argument.

[forameuss]

51 minutes ago, mark1985 said:

I've made this argument before, but having flares in FM doesn't encourage people to go out and use them. In the same way that watching the Sopranos doesn't make me want to join the mafia or watching a documentary on terrorism wants me to go and blow myself up. It's  a stupid argument.

To be fair, so is suggesting that you need to set fire to something to create atmosphere.

No real issue with them being in the game, they're an irrelevance for me.  More of an issue with them in real life by absolute sad-acts that believe they're some Eastern European Ultra just because they've smuggled something illegal into a ground.

[mark1985]

6 minutes ago, forameuss said:

To be fair, so is suggesting that you need to set fire to something to create atmosphere.

No real issue with them being in the game, they're an irrelevance for me.  More of an issue with them in real life by absolute sad-acts that believe they're some Eastern European Ultra just because they've smuggled something illegal into a ground.

I think they add atmosphere, but each to their own (some like them, some don't and it's a matter of option). I just can't stand the whole having them on FM/seeing them on TV 'creates a bad example.' You can make that argument about pretty much anything really.

[Tony Wright 747]

In real life there is no place for them at a football match, they are highly dangerous and and should not be used in the confines of a football crowd  that's not what they were designed for.  Thankfully there is tighter security at British stadiums and very few get through.  As forameuss said they are an irrelevance in the game and If I see one in any of my saves I just think "another idiot has let off a flare"

[Smurf]

3 hours ago, mark1985 said:

I've made this argument before, but having flares in FM doesn't encourage people to go out and use them. In the same way that watching the Sopranos doesn't make me want to join the mafia or watching a documentary on terrorism wants me to go and blow myself up. It's  a stupid argument.

Yes, but the Sorpranos is rated 18+ and Football Manager is for all ages.

As adults we can make informed decisions not to go around with guns because we saw it on TV - but children don't have the same level of intelligence. 

 

Whether or not we compare apples and oranges - we can do that all day long.

It's still a known fact that Flares in stadia are forbidden - and seeing them in the game could potentially encourage people to bring flares to games.

 

Whether you agree or disagree with that is pointless; it's outlawed in football, that's why it shouldn't be in Football Manager. The same way as punching players is outlawed, it made it's way into FM for a couple of seasons, but it was removed as it served no part in football. And it opened up the clubs and players to criticism as the real life person may not have been violent, but in FM had a tendency to be violent.

 

There's a corporate responsibility from SI and Sega that needs to be met here - it's not that I agree with or against you - it's a simple fact - Flares our outlawed because they're dangerous and they shouldn't be in Football Manager. 

Simple as that.

[Crispypaul]

27 minutes ago, Smurf said:

There's a corporate responsibility from SI and Sega that needs to be met here - it's not that I agree with or against you - it's a simple fact - Flares our outlawed because they're dangerous and they shouldn't be in Football Manager. 

Simple as that.

Murder is outlawed but there's quite a lot of games where you can shoot people with little consequence.... 

[Cal585]

5 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

Murder is outlawed but there's quite a lot of games where you can shoot people with little consequence.... 

How many of those are realistic simulation games?

I don't remember seeing match fixing in FM either, despite it being known to happen illegally.

[OLLMEISTER1]

On ‎15‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:47, Smurf said:

Flares are banned under football laws. They shouldn't be in the game. I agree they are a bad example.

 

 

 

Jesus, its opinions like yours that are making football matches now non atmospheric. Lets all sit there with a Bovril and Pukka Pie.

One of the many reasons why football has lost a lot of its support in recent years. Non atmospheric games because the archaic authorities deem it amongst other ridiculous opinions to be a influentially bad.

Needs a total shake up from top to bottom.

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

Jesus, its opinions like yours that are making football matches now non atmospheric. Lets all sit there with a Bovril and Pukka Pie.

One of the many reasons why football has lost a lot of its support in recent years. Non atmospheric games because the archaic authorities deem it amongst other ridiculous opinions to be a influentially bad.

Needs a total shake up from top to bottom.

And again, why do you need to set fire to something to create atmosphere?

A lot of games abroad do have a wonderful atmosphere (although that's very subjective, as funnily enough there's more than one type of football fan) but they would have that even without things like flares.  It's a lazy reaction from those absolute sad-acts that believe they're some kind of ultra that it's all done to these stupid wee flares that bring atmosphere.  Only they won't bring that here, because they'll be wielded by absolute cretins, and are far more likely to damage themselves (not such a bad thing) or the person sitting next to them.  Thistle originally had to house away fans of the Old Firm (well, Celtic, Rangers were "elsewhere" at the time) away from the usual away stand for health and safety reasons, because they couldn't be trusted not to set the (wooden) stand alight with flares.  "Bt atmawspheer lads!  Lads Lads lads!"  Tragic.

[mark1985]

48 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Yes, but the Sorpranos is rated 18+ and Football Manager is for all ages.

As adults we can make informed decisions not to go around with guns because we saw it on TV - but children don't have the same level of intelligence. 

 

Whether or not we compare apples and oranges - we can do that all day long.

It's still a known fact that Flares in stadia are forbidden - and seeing them in the game could potentially encourage people to bring flares to games.

 

Whether you agree or disagree with that is pointless; it's outlawed in football, that's why it shouldn't be in Football Manager. The same way as punching players is outlawed, it made it's way into FM for a couple of seasons, but it was removed as it served no part in football. And it opened up the clubs and players to criticism as the real life person may not have been violent, but in FM had a tendency to be violent.

 

There's a corporate responsibility from SI and Sega that needs to be met here - it's not that I agree with or against you - it's a simple fact - Flares our outlawed because they're dangerous and they shouldn't be in Football Manager. 

Simple as that.

Seeing them on TV, yeah I get that argument (someone sees it on TV, thinks it's cool, tries to sneak one into a ground, ok). The fact that they are banned, whether you agree/disagree, fine. I wouldn't set any off even if they weren't. But the whole argument that if someone sees a flare on FM and that will inspire them to set on off in real life is one of the most stupid arguments I have ever heard in my life.

[OLLMEISTER1]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

And again, why do you need to set fire to something to create atmosphere?

A lot of games abroad do have a wonderful atmosphere (although that's very subjective, as funnily enough there's more than one type of football fan) but they would have that even without things like flares.  It's a lazy reaction from those absolute sad-acts that believe they're some kind of ultra that it's all done to these stupid wee flares that bring atmosphere.  Only they won't bring that here, because they'll be wielded by absolute cretins, and are far more likely to damage themselves (not such a bad thing) or the person sitting next to them.  Thistle originally had to house away fans of the Old Firm (well, Celtic, Rangers were "elsewhere" at the time) away from the usual away stand for health and safety reasons, because they couldn't be trusted not to set the (wooden) stand alight with flares.  "Bt atmawspheer lads!  Lads Lads lads!"  Tragic.

Ahhh I see you're a Jock, now I know why you prefer Bovril & Pukka pies at football matches. Let's all make football a sit down, clap only arena. Life has gone out of this sport.

'Last warning for you sir, you tried to create atmosphere at a football game. Please sit down & I will not tell you again, clapping only next time'

[mark1985]

4 minutes ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

Ahhh I see you're a Jock, now I know why you prefer Bovril & Pukka pies at football matches. Let's all make football a sit down, clap only arena. Life has gone out of this sport.

'Last warning for you sir, you tried to create atmosphere at a football game. Please sit down & I will not tell you again, clapping only next time'

Let's call him a Jock and lob some abuse at him. That will make him see my point of view!  You're actually helping to prove his point rather than actually have a debate about this.

[forameuss]

11 minutes ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

Ahhh I see you're a Jock, now I know why you prefer Bovril & Pukka pies at football matches. Let's all make football a sit down, clap only arena. Life has gone out of this sport.

'Last warning for you sir, you tried to create atmosphere at a football game. Please sit down & I will not tell you again, clapping only next time'

Aye, go to some lazy stereotyping and light racism.  That'll really win the point.  Tragic. 

Again, I'm not sure where flares come into that.  You can have a good atmosphere without setting fire to things.  I've been at Scotland games with cracking atmospheres, and ones with terrible atmospheres.  I've also been to St. Pauli in the second tier, and the atmosphere was brilliant.  No flares at any of those games.

So again, I'll ask, why do you need to set fire to something to create atmosphere?

EDIT: And well done for targeting those so typically Scottish pursuits of Pukka Pies (made in Leicestershire) and Bovril (sold at most football grounds in Britain).  Swing and a miss.  Could've at least gone after the heroin, or sectarianism.

[mark1985]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

Aye, go to some lazy stereotyping and light racism.  That'll really win the point.  Tragic. 

Again, I'm not sure where flares come into that.  You can have a good atmosphere without setting fire to things.  I've been at Scotland games with cracking atmospheres, and ones with terrible atmospheres.  I've also been to St. Pauli in the second tier, and the atmosphere was brilliant.  No flares at any of those games.

So again, I'll ask, why do you need to set fire to something to create atmosphere?

In my opinion, they can create atmosphere by creating an intimidating spectacle (of course a 14 year old numpty with a flare and 3 WKDs inside him is just a bit tragic really). Atmosphere can of course be created in other ways (whether that be flares, banners, the old school all standing ends etc, all of which have their pros and cons). It all comes down to personal preference at the end of the day. Having watched football across Europe, I've seen the good and bad sides of Ultras. I loved the passion, the colour and the occasional use of flares but can totally see why that kind of support is not for everyone.

[forameuss]

6 minutes ago, mark1985 said:

In my opinion, they can create atmosphere by creating an intimidating spectacle (of course a 14 year old numpty with a flare and 3 WKDs inside him is just a bit tragic really). Atmosphere can of course be created in other ways (whether that be flares, banners, the old school all standing ends etc, all of which have their pros and cons). It all comes down to personal preference at the end of the day. Having watched football across Europe, I've seen the good and bad sides of Ultras. I loved the passion, the colour and the occasional use of flares but can totally see why that kind of support is not for everyone.

It's more down to culture.  On the continent it's more acceptable culturally, and although they're probably still being wielded by people you wouldn't let milk a cow, they'll probably be "safer".  On these shores it'll be wielded, like you say, by absolute morons because they once saw a youtube video with them in.  Completely forgetting the irony that the flares are already backing up a pretty good atmosphere, not causing it.  If you took the flares away from those grounds, you would lose a little, but probably still have a very intimidating atmosphere.  

I'm fully in support of improving atmosphere at stadiums, absolutely.  Hampden when it's rocking is fantastic, but completely lacking most of the rest of the time.  Firhill is Firhill, but its set up well enough with having those that absolutely want to stand and sing going into the North Stand, with everyone else in the other stand.  There's no wrong way to enjoy a football match.  The best way to bring crowds in is to be as inclusive for every demographic as possible.  Have sections where people can sing, stand, build an atmosphere.  Have family areas so people can bring younger kids and introduce them to the sport without being intimidated by cretins who think their way is best.  There's no reason why that shouldn't be possible.

[mark1985]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

It's more down to culture.  On the continent it's more acceptable culturally, and although they're probably still being wielded by people you wouldn't let milk a cow, they'll probably be "safer".  On these shores it'll be wielded, like you say, by absolute morons because they once saw a youtube video with them in.  Completely forgetting the irony that the flares are already backing up a pretty good atmosphere, not causing it.  If you took the flares away from those grounds, you would lose a little, but probably still have a very intimidating atmosphere.  

I'm fully in support of improving atmosphere at stadiums, absolutely.  Hampden when it's rocking is fantastic, but completely lacking most of the rest of the time.  Firhill is Firhill, but its set up well enough with having those that absolutely want to stand and sing going into the North Stand, with everyone else in the other stand.  There's no right way to enjoy a football match.

Totally agree with you there. I'm a Southampton fan and our atmosphere is dire sometimes but I wouldn't trust most of the people in our ground with a pritt stick let alone a flare. I used to live in Switzerland (who, as the stereotype goes, are perfectly adept at milking a cow. Neutrally. Whilst counting their gold with may or may not have been, erm, 'borrowed' from that nasty little fella and his mates who got a bit uppity in the 30/40s.) and the atmosphere was a million times better than over here, even before they got the flares out.

[Smurf]

4 hours ago, mark1985 said:

Seeing them on TV, yeah I get that argument (someone sees it on TV, thinks it's cool, tries to sneak one into a ground, ok). The fact that they are banned, whether you agree/disagree, fine. I wouldn't set any off even if they weren't. But the whole argument that if someone sees a flare on FM and that will inspire them to set on off in real life is one of the most stupid arguments I have ever heard in my life.

There have been documented cases before with other games, where kids see things in games and try them in real life. 

It's dangerous, and it shouldn't be in FM. 

Whether you agree or disagree, or if you find it a stupid argument is not really any point to be making at all.

It's banned by FiFA and therefore it shouldn't be in the game. 

[wazza]

SI could put something else in the game to create the atmosphere if necessary instead of the flares

- supporters waving flags when the team come out or score a goal

- the sound of the game which imo needs vastly improving could incorporate team chants or if there are licence issues the code could be put in for the community to make specific club chants so that you can hear each team during a match

 If fires what some fans want that too could be incorporated into the game but not as flares  - the players could run out to pyro fires like they do at cup finals and important fixtures to build up an atmosphere - the stadiums flood lights could flash also when the teams run out, which I have seen done at various live games.

[Tony Wright 747]

3 hours ago, wazza said:

SI could put something else in the game to create the atmosphere if necessary instead of the flares

- supporters waving flags when the team come out or score a goal

- the sound of the game which imo needs vastly improving could incorporate team chants or if there are licence issues the code could be put in for the community to make specific club chants so that you can hear each team during a match

 If fires what some fans want that too could be incorporated into the game but not as flares  - the players could run out to pyro fires like they do at cup finals and important fixtures to build up an atmosphere - the stadiums flood lights could flash also when the teams run out, which I have seen done at various live games.

All fluff really, all I want is a decent ME, realistic Stadiums and enough graphical animations to show what is going on under the hood.

[Smurf]

All these things about Flares and it happens at matches so why not in the game...

Well besides the fact that they're dangerous. Other things happen in real life which is also against FIFA Laws.

• Pitch invasions
• Stadium riots
• Players jumping into stand and kicking fans - and/or celebrating into the crowd.
• Pushing over referees
• Attacking other players
• On-field scuffles
• Tunnell incidents
• Coin throwing
• Stamping on players
• Taunting
• Racist chants
• Stadium damage due to hooliganism

 

All happen in football - but it's not in football manager because it's logical for it not to be in it - a lot of it is under "VIolent Behaviour"

 

If they want to keep flares in I have no problem with that - however, there should be sanctions on the club when Flares are lit. As that's what happens in real life.

 

However, I think they shouldn't be in the game, as it can encourage younger gamers - or even some adults. 

[klettec]

The only people who are against flares are the ones that hasn't experienced a proper pyroshow at the stadium or prefers to watch it on TV. I don't care whether it is legal or not. I just want to know if it is possible to make my supporters on FM to use them. Not this debate. Seen it all before.

[Smurf]

17 minutes ago, klettec said:

The only people who are against flares are the ones that hasn't experienced a proper pyroshow 

....and law enforcement, FIFA and people behind crowd safety...

Is it possible to make your fans use them? Unless it's a setting in the Editor. 

Check there. 

 

[NotMyCat]

2 minutes ago, Smurf said:

....and law enforcement, FIFA and people behind crowd safety...

Is it possible to make your fans use them? Unless it's a setting in the Editor. 

Check there. 

 

As a guess maybe if you set your team's home stadium to a country in which flares appear in game it might work (Serbia or Greece?). Of course it could well mess up your finances if your Cambridge United team is travelling to Belgrade every other week.

[spaced33]

On ‎22‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 15:09, klettec said:

The only people who are against flares are the ones that hasn't experienced a proper pyroshow at the stadium or prefers to watch it on TV. I don't care whether it is legal or not. I just want to know if it is possible to make my supporters on FM to use them. Not this debate. Seen it all before.

I also hear its an amazing rush to go base jumping but that doesn't make it safe. These people definitely put the safety of the fans ahead of some cheap pyro thrills.

I personally think it looks pretty cool on TV but I have never been to a game as I live in Africa so can't speak from a point of experience

[MBarbaric]

Just to remind people... Flares are used as signals on the sea. Most likely to alert passing vessels there's something wrong on your ship and you need help. It is basically a life saving device. It is absolutely safe to use if you don't do something stupid like poke it in your eye in which case you shouldn't be using a fork as that is much more dangerous object. On top of all this, in Scandinavia they use flares approved by league authorities, local FA and clubs. 

I don't mind them on the stands. Grew up with them and never seen anyone getting hurt but hate it when they finish on the pitch. They are mostly banned because one can stop a match for 10 minutes if you smoke everything up. And these 10 minutes in top competitions bring TV money. i'd think it is more about money than safety they were banned.

 

two days ago... a visiting team put the tape on youtube complaining it was too intimidating

 

[Smurf]

1992 - Guillem Lazaro, a 13-year-old Spanish boy, was killed when he was hit in the chest by a flare at a stadium in Barcelona
2013 - a 14-year-old boy died in Brazil from a flare which was thrown at a Corinthians game
2015 - the Russia goalkeeper Igor Akinfeev was struck on the back of the head with a flare during a match between Montenegro and Russia.

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Just to remind people... Flares are used as signals on the sea. Most likely to alert passing vessels there's something wrong on your ship and you need help. It is basically a life saving device. It is absolutely safe to use if you don't do something stupid like poke it in your eye in which case you shouldn't be using a fork as that is much more dangerous object. On top of all this, in Scandinavia they use flares approved by league authorities, local FA and clubs. 

I don't mind them on the stands. Grew up with them and never seen anyone getting hurt but hate it when they finish on the pitch. They are mostly banned because one can stop a match for 10 minutes if you smoke everything up. And these 10 minutes in top competitions bring TV money. i'd think it is more about money than safety they were banned.

 

two days ago... a visiting team put the tape on youtube complaining it was too intimidating

 

I'm well aware that flares have a use outwith of football.  I'd imagine a lot of the time on these vessels though, they aren't being used in confined spaces with thousands of people around them.  They are relatively safe to use if you're not stupid, otherwise you'd probably see far more horror stories from the places they are used.  Yet there are horror stories out there about them.

None of that really matters though, as you clearly haven't seen some of the absolute cretins who would be wielding them in this country.  I repeat, health and safety rules have a long standing rule in place that Old Firm fans cannot be housed within a particular stand at Firhill because there are wooden elements to it, and with their past behaviour they can't be trusted not to set fire to the stand they're in.  But then I'd imagine some of those people would think that was a right laugh.

I'll say again, I know flares are absolutely a part of football elsewhere.  They're illegal in other parts though, and for very good reasons, and I'd be quite happy for them to be kept well away from any game I'm thinking of attending.