Defending in This Game is Shocking

[Danchinaski]

I know what you mean about issues that have been there a while. I said elsewhere that if the shooting from byline aggravation ends with FM17, that'd actually be enough to keep me happy, but then l think about the stadium bug, the "good goalkeeping" commentary glitch, the baffling AI manager appointments, the reputation system, shots that go out for a throw in, one-on-ones that rarely end up in a goal, big-money players who never play for their teams and end up available for half price in 6 months, the banal media interactions...

Good luck, SI. 

[enigmatic]

On 8/10/2016 at 17:01, MBarbaric said:

A defensive player positioning himself in the box has to balance (i) sticking to the prescribed team shape and following instructions (ii) identifying a player to mark if there is one in their vicinity and trying to stay tight and goal side of them

I)  in the box there is no more defensive shape. you man mark, end of story. 

II) this

 

(iii) try to be in position to intercept a pass/cross if it's aimed in the general area

This is what all players are thought and should be reasonably comfrotable with regardles of position. they should be able to positioning  their body and movement in regard to ball/opposition position

 

(iv) ensuring there are no large gaps in the middle for players to run into 

This is done as part of defensive unit training and usually includes defence and midfield, hence at least 8 players from a team

 

(v) keep the back four in a tight offside line, and consider stepping up, especially if it's an offside trap.

not really, it is the full back on the opposite side that controlls the off side trap and should be the one who calls for it since he sees the whole playing side. besides, defensive line doesn't need and mostly, doesn't even try to play off side trap. That happens usually when strikers are careless enough to fall for it. There is precise rule when the defensive line steps up (generally whenever the ball goas towards the opposition goal)-

You seem to miss the point that this is a computer game, and the little sprites running around your screen don't get to do defensive training to figure out from hours of experience precisely when to abandon positional shape and double up on man marking, and when to abandon the general rule of being goal side of their man to cut out the passing option, which almost invariably involves not being goal side of their man. They don't have the capability to figure it out for themselves either. Instead, somebody has to represent all these finely balanced decisions as a set of instructions in computer code to tell those sprites exactly what to consider and what to prioritise, across a huge variety of possible player/opponent ability levels, tactical setups and speeds of opposition attacks. And new code changes to defensive behaviour aren't optimising for minimise goals scored which is quite easy to test, they're aiming to achieve several other criteria, most of which need humans to watch lots of matches each time a change is made to see how it pans out.

A rule like "in the box there is no more defensive shape. you man mark, end of story" is going to see a side absolutely slaughtered by opponents with one or more strikers that makes early runs into the box to drag markers away from the goal and deep lying players to make late runs into the vacated space (Wasn't that overly simple rule for defensive behaviour the main reason why the forward running central midfielder in "Diablo" type exploit formations in CM03-04 scored so many goals?). 

On the other hand, as ludicrously simple a priority as "when ball is in wide crossing position, jog towards a random vacant onside position within ten metres of the penalty spot" probably is good enough to get a forward in position to score goals, and probably even looks like fairly realistic striker behaviour. And a bit of randomness in attacking movement generally looks creative; a bit of randomness in defensive movement probably looks like stupidity.

Needless to say, the actual code is much more sophisticated for both attacking and defending: the point is that defensive code is necessarily more complex and its weaknesses necessarily more glaring and more unbalancing. 

 

[HUNT3R]

17 hours ago, Danchinaski said:

I've not been on this forum very long, but I've noticed a general dialogue which runs through a significant percentage of threads on here. It goes something like:

OP: "This game is rubbish, because [insert obvious flaw, probably crosses, occasionally something else]"

RESPONSE: "The game is not rubbish. You're just rubbish at playing it"

OP: "[insert screenshot to show stats highlighting original point by OP]"

RESPONSE: "That's tactical. Check the tactics forum"

This is actually pretty fair. When someone doesn't succeed on FM it is usually because they're not as good at the game as they thought they'd be. The thing is, I'm often finding myself in agreement with the observations made by the rage-poster regarding the flaws in the game, even if I strongly disagree with the sentiment and tone that goes with it (and for the most part agree that a lot of the problems are player-created). I usually try and keep my criticisms constructive and see little point in going online to rage about a 1-0 defeat in a semi-final or whatever, but even so this game is incredibly flawed and many of the 'ragers' do have points I can sympathise on many occasions. In my mind I have a personal 'checklist' of things I hope FM17 improves upon, and if that's done, then great, but if not, and the flaws which spoil my enjoyment of FM remain, then it will probably be my last. None of these problems on this 'checklist' are to do with either tactics or how I play the game.

In this case, it's a bit of both. Yes, there are issues with crossing in some setups. The problem was that this particular setup was just very poor. Defenders all on Defend and AML/R wingers on Attack (who won't track back) meant massive gaps on the flanks. Lots of time for anyone to get set and cross. To make it worse, a BWM/D was chosen to 'protect' the defence, which he won't since he also leaves gaps everywhere.

So yes, there are issues, but above all, the tactic caused it.

 

[JustinJJJ]

The weird thing I noticed, in whatever teams I see play, is left backs seem to be more shaky than right backs, I don't know if that is just a reflection of the fact there just are not so many good left backs in the game, but I noticed that mistakes tend to come more from t hat side than they do on the other? 

[Earnie is God!]

On 09/08/2016 at 21:47, KingCanary said:

I stopped playing 16 and went back to 15 because I find the defending so distractingly bad. I don't actually think crossing is overpowered but defending is so off it makes it seem that way.

Full backs sit stupidly narrow and don't close down wingers or fullbacks quickly leading to easy crosses.

Centre backs and goalkeepers don't react to danger so balls are allowed to drift far further than they would be in real life without someone tracking them or a keeper coming out to claim them. 

Defenders don't seem to react to runs between them from strikers meaning that they are often left in acres of space at the far post.

It all adds up to a pretty unsatisfying game where you feel like you're waiting for the next back post tap in highlight rather than watching a game of football. Having gone back to 15 it is amazing to me how much more varied and fun the match engine is to play. The game has it flaws and frustrations sure, but this is the first time I've ever abandoned a version of FM.

Yup, I agree.

I share your frustration with this year's version. We finished 3rd in EPL so a very successful season for a team like Cardiff but the game just infuriates me. I've raised a lot of money through player sales and actually started the new season with a transfer kitty of £180m! Financially, it is going great. On the pitch, it's going just as well and we are continuing to improve (1st in Championship followed by 9th, 6th and 3rd in EPL). So it's not as if things are going really badly and I'm moaning because we aren't doing well. The game is just a massive pain in the arse in other ways.

You have to sort out tactics and set piece instructions almost every game, especially when these instructions just simply aren't followed on the pitch. Why they thought it was a good idea this year to introduce all these new options for set pieces I don't know. You have to set them for each individual tactic you use, even who takes your set pieces which is a bit daft.....only to see them not implemented during a game, especially with the throw ins. I have a newgen with 19 for throw ins so I taught him the bullet throw ppm, using current player Aron Gunnarsson (17 + bullet) to tutor him. I also had CB Sean Morrison with the same so now had 3 players who could deliver a potentially lethal ball into the box but it simply doesn't work. I've tried different setups for it but the CBs (and other players) don't do what I ask them to do. Sure, they go forward sometimes but then just stand still in the penalty area and don't attack the ball. I want to see the same as what happened during the Euros when Gunnarsson's throw helped Iceland score some crucial goals but it just doesn't happen.

Also, when you switch tactics, either mid-game or before it's even started, the players you had going forward sometimes get switched with others who shouldn't. I've no idea why this happens and it's pretty random so doesn't happen all the time but it all gets messed up and nullifies any advantage of setting these all up to start with. I've had CBs staying back for corners even though I always send them up, and when I check the setup, it's swapped them with other positions and I've now got my 5'5" winger challenging the GK. Why? Can we not just go back to the simple setup we had before where I can decide my set piece takers and what to do for corners, free kicks and throws and then not have to worry that these instructions are not carried out? In FM16, I've gone back to a tactic I've not used for more than a season and found that 3 of the 4 corner takers (the same 3 of 5 for free kicks) it has listed to take them are no longer with the club. So why are they still in the list?

Having to tinker with these every game is bad enough but then you see some ludicrous things happening on the pitch to make things even worse. As detailed in my "Ever have one of those games?" thread the other week..... 

And it's happened twice since then, my FB takes a short throw-in to my CB inside my own penalty area but the CB decides to run away from the ball, allowing an opposing striker to come in and score. I also see some highly creative and intelligent players deciding to run right up to defenders and then try to shoot through them rather than any of a number of other options: passing, dribbling, crossing or shooting before they are blocked off. And then probably the most frustrating thing of all which has been well documented in FM16, not only just in this thread - watching ANY player, no matter if they are great or really poor, manage to ping a highly accurate 50yd ball to a FB or winger who then puts in an equally magnificent ball to the far post for their other FB or winger to pop up at the far stick and smack it into the net.

For me, FM is all about creating your own team over time, whether through astute buys or developing youth, with the best feeling seeing them go out there and perform and do exactly what you ask them to do with your tactics. This just doesn't happen in FM16, or at least nowhere near as much as it should, so last night after yet another frustrating few matches, I ditched it and went back to FM15. Sure, it's not as fancy as this year's version and the appearance isn't as smooth but I'm more than happen to sacrifice that for a match engine that does pretty much as it should and players who do as they are instructed.

Chances are I'll buy FM17 but probably not until Feb/Mar once all the inevitable bugs are fixed. Until then, I think it's FM15 all the way.

[CityAndColour]

On 13/08/2016 at 08:15, JustinJJJ said:

The weird thing I noticed, in whatever teams I see play, is left backs seem to be more shaky than right backs, I don't know if that is just a reflection of the fact there just are not so many good left backs in the game, but I noticed that mistakes tend to come more from t hat side than they do on the other? 

I would say in general the left back position is traditionally a more attacking one than right back.

[Guest]

Tactically it tends to be the other way round in FM, it's mor common for AI managers to use an attacked duty on the right with a defend duty on the left & the lack of engagement from the defend duty fullback allows too much time & space for right sided wide player to overload the left back.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

You have to sort out tactics and set piece instructions almost every game, especially when these instructions just simply aren't followed on the pitch. Why they thought it was a good idea this year to introduce all these new options for set pieces I don't know. You have to set them for each individual tactic you use, even who takes your set pieces which is a bit daft.....only to see them not implemented during a game, especially with the throw ins. I have a newgen with 19 for throw ins so I taught him the bullet throw ppm, using current player Aron Gunnarsson (17 + bullet) to tutor him. I also had CB Sean Morrison with the same so now had 3 players who could deliver a potentially lethal ball into the box but it simply doesn't work. I've tried different setups for it but the CBs (and other players) don't do what I ask them to do. Sure, they go forward sometimes but then just stand still in the penalty area and don't attack the ball. I want to see the same as what happened during the Euros when Gunnarsson's throw helped Iceland score some crucial goals but it just doesn't happen.

Do you think that irl managers do not make adjustments from match to match? Why would it be more realistic to have a fire & forget tactic that once created works for every match?

btw long throws in the final thirs are & always have been treated as a corner in regards to where players position themselves

[Earnie is God!]

Yes, of course they sometimes make adjustments irl but not always. Most will still send up their big men for corners and free kicks regardless of what tactic/formation they are using. IRL it is probably more a 'fire and forget' system than what you are suggesting i.e. the more technical players to take the corners/free kicks, one CB to challenge the GK, the other to make a nuisance of himself at the near post or whatever; that will probably not change if they use a different tactic. Also, none of them will try and use set piece takers who are no longer at the club.

You also have to consider that IRL, players have the ability to decide things themselves during a match and don't always do as instructed. As players do not 'think' in FM, you expect them to do as told. You don't expect to have to check the settings each game or each time you switch tactics and you certainly don't expect to see that the instructions you have set have been altered by the game without you knowing it.

As for long throws being treated as corners in the final third; if that's the case then, firstly why is that not documented anywhere, and secondly, that's another flaw in FM16 because the players sent forward do not attack the throws like they would attack the corners. FM16 is the only version that this problem has occurred, in my experience, and I have bought the game just about every year for the past decade or so.

If this was the only issue with FM16, then it wouldn't be such a big deal but, when added to the others I listed above, as well as those that others have experienced, it makes for a very frustrating game.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Earnie is God! said:

Yes, of course they sometimes make adjustments irl but not always. Most will still send up their big men for corners and free kicks regardless of what tactic/formation they are using. IRL it is probably more a 'fire and forget' system than what you are suggesting i.e. the more technical players to take the corners/free kicks, one CB to challenge the GK, the other to make a nuisance of himself at the near post or whatever; that will probably not change if they use a different tactic. Also, none of them will try and use set piece takers who are no longer at the club.

You also have to consider that IRL, players have the ability to decide things themselves during a match and don't always do as instructed. As players do not 'think' in FM, you expect them to do as told. You don't expect to have to check the settings each game or each time you switch tactics and you certainly don't expect to see that the instructions you have set have been altered by the game without you knowing it.

As for long throws being treated as corners in the final third; if that's the case then, firstly why is that not documented anywhere, and secondly, that's another flaw in FM16 because the players sent forward do not attack the throws like they would attack the corners. FM16 is the only version that this problem has occurred, in my experience, and I have bought the game just about every year for the past decade or so.

If this was the only issue with FM16, then it wouldn't be such a big deal but, when added to the others I listed above, as well as those that others have experienced, it makes for a very frustrating game.

IRL managers make more adjustments than it appears you think they do & in FM players will make decisions outside of their instructions, in fact that was a key benefit of SI ditching the slider based tactics as players would follow those instruction far too closely.

I can;t disagree that FM16 is probably the most frustrating release from SI in quite a few years, there's so much good to the game but it is let down by some strange design choices in some features & a match engine that has pretty much reached the upper limits of its development capabilities since the introduction of collision avoidance & I'm now waiting for ME team to be able to introduce full collision detection as that's what I believe is needed to take the game to another level.

[Earnie is God!]

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, and I don't want to sound like one of those who come on here just to moan. I, like a lot of people, have put up with a lot of minor flaws in this year's version but they all add up and the frustration finally got the better of me.

[Guest]

I do understand, I stopped playing FM16 months ago because the ME issues were just annoying me too much, for me to put up with. I have since started a new save to refresh my thought processes ahead of any FM17 testing that I might be asked to assist with. & because let's be honest most of us here are FM addicts & we just can;t help ourselves, especially now the football season has started.

[Earnie is God!]

Totally. I went back to FM15 yesterday and it is so much easier to control what happens.....perhaps a bit too easy but I'd rather that than get so annoyed playing FM16.

[shirajzl]

29 minutes ago, Barside said:

I can;t disagree that FM16 is probably the most frustrating release from SI in quite a few years, there's so much good to the game but it is let down by some strange design choices in some features & a match engine that has pretty much reached the upper limits of its development capabilities since the introduction of collision avoidance & I'm now waiting for ME team to be able to introduce full collision detection as that's what I believe is needed to take the game to another level.

 

6 minutes ago, Barside said:

I do understand, I stopped playing FM16 months ago because the ME issues were just annoying me too much, for me to put up with. I have since started a new save to refresh my thought processes ahead of any FM17 testing that I might be asked to assist with. & because let's be honest most of us here are FM addicts & we just can;t help ourselves, especially now the football season has started.

It's rare to see such honesty in public parts of the forum from any of the mods. Thank you for that. 

[themadsheep2001]

18 hours ago, shirajzl said:

 

It's rare to see such honesty in public parts of the forum from any of the mods. Thank you for that. 

It's not rare at all tbh. Speak to us up front and without the digs about where we stand etc such as Earnie does and you get a pretty up front reply. You get what you give.

[enigmatic]

On 8/14/2016 at 07:55, Barside said:

btw long throws in the final thirs are & always have been treated as a corner in regards to where players position themselves

What's the point of the set piece routine for throws then? Surely the only time you want a player on the near post and two or three others in the box is if you're launching the throw from the final third or very near to the final third?

[Earnie is God!]

True.

This is what happens in FM15 and it works as intended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FsI6xMWS7Y

Here are 4 examples from the same game in FM16 and it just doesn't work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF-L5h8M3oU

Cotterill (see attached photo below) is my throw-in taker and he has 20 for long throws and the 'bullet' throw ppm.

Fellaini and Benteke are both excellent in the air but neither of them attack the ball.

[Guest]

It does appear that the defenders are doing a better job in FM16 than they were in FM15, was the lad taking throws in your FM15 save more athletics & a better overall player than Cotterill? That is a key variable that does need to be factored into any version to version analysis.

[Cannes]

The real issue with crosses only applies to early crosses in my opinion, crosses from the byline towards a forward storming forward is super powerful irl and should be in the game also.

As far as early crosses to the backpost are of course even more dangerous irl, but they are also much much harder to do, you really need pinpoint accuracy to accomplish this and it seems much too easy for mediocre players to accomplish the precision and speed needed to create a goal scoring opportunit this way.

As others have pointed out the issue seems to be enhanced by poor movement by the defenders, sometime you just have to laugh at what happens, in a recent game in the championship a situation arose where a single opponent striker was loitering around the penalty spot, marked by 4 of my defenders, the attacker then twitched his foot, farted, screamed "snake!" or some such, which sent the 4 defenders running in different directions, after which he receiced a short cross from the winger and tapped it in... baffling...

Another issue that exacerbates the problems is the goalkeepers unwillingness to move away from the goal line to intercept either a cross or a deep ball. often the opponent striker sprints deep into the 6 yard box from 30 yards away to blast the ball over the line with the goalkeeper standing rooted to the spot spectating for a full two-three seconds as the ball completes its predictable trajectory instead of tacking a single step forward to snatch the ball out of the air or just picking it up.

[HUNT3R]

That's easily fixed by either dropping the D-Line or putting more pressure on the crosser.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

On 14/08/2016 at 07:55, Barside said:

Do you think that irl managers do not make adjustments from match to match? Why would it be more realistic to have a fire & forget tactic that once created works for every match?

btw long throws in the final thirs are & always have been treated as a corner in regards to where players position themselves

Hm, I know they do, but sometimes I think players don't want to be fiddling and watching and changing for every match. I know, you get what you put in etc! 

[Earnie is God!]

On 15/08/2016 at 17:41, Barside said:

It does appear that the defenders are doing a better job in FM16 than they were in FM15, was the lad taking throws in your FM15 save more athletics & a better overall player than Cotterill? That is a key variable that does need to be factored into any version to version analysis.

My throw-in taker in FM15 was an experienced CB, Ezequiel Munoz,with 15 for long throws and he is physically stronger so 15+strong is perhaps comparable to 20+not so strong, but I'm not sure how him being a better overall player can be that relevant. The length and accuracy of the throws are very similar in both versions and it's the positioning of my attacking players that I am questioning and how, in FM16, they don't want to attack the ball that comes in; it's like they aren't even aware that the ball is there. On the rare occasion that they do attack the ball, they seem intent on heading it back towards the throw-in taker rather than flick it on or head towards goal. I think a main part of it is how the 'default' positioning for players at set pieces has been removed in FM16. In previous versions, putting a player on 'default' would see a number of them moving into space, as shown in my first youtube clip. In FM16, you don't have that option so it's basically either getting them to attack the near post or sending them forward and that latter option means they just all congregate in the 6yd box and have a mothers' meeting.

As I said the other day, I gave up and went back to FM15 but having played a few more games, I remembered how easy it was, averaging 30 shots and 3+ goals a game so I've returned to FM16. To try and help my enjoyment, I've downloaded a lovely new skin and a big pack of stadium pictures in the hope that this will offset my frustrations with the ME. Whether that works or not, time will tell.

[Earnie is God!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4UvvC-SH5A

I have to laugh about these things, otherwise I think I'd cry. Yet another goal given away from our own throw-in, at least the 8th time I've seen this happen in little more than 4 seasons.

[Guest]

That bug is infuriating. I even find it more annoying that the goal kick counter from FM11 & the FM12 demo which until PAulC fixed it was going to result in me not buying FM12  although at least that had some link to a logical real world situation unlike the one you've just shown.

[Danchinaski]

4 minutes ago, Barside said:

 it was going to result in me not buying FM12  

Yunno, I feel like that about FM17. This isn't a generic "sort it out" whinge, but a genuine feeling of sadness that something which has given me so much enjoyment for around twenty years has now evolved into something so...frustrating. Like seeing your favourite band play live and realising that they've just somehow *lost* something undefinable. It could just be me getting on a bit, but I reckon the fatal flaws in FM16 have significantly contributed to making me feel like it's all over. I'm not being melodramatic, I seriously feel very sad about this. 

I really hope this FM-fatigue passes, but right now it feels terminal, Has anyone else gone through this rocky patch, and come out the other side?

[Guest]

With FM12 it was the fact that such a glaringly obvious bug & one that could be easily exploited (short distribution meant it only affected AI sides) that I was beyond disappointed to see that it wasn't addressed & it took a far bit of feedback during the pre-release demo for the ME team to hotfix it. I'm glad they did because if I didn't have FM12 I'd never have spent months logging issues with that release in the bugs forum & I'd never have ended up working at SI off the back of those bug reports.

[JustinJJJ]

'I've just seen something two games in a row which just takes the biscuit

Opposition playing what seems to be a 8-1-1 formation (used to it by now, most teams are playing 10 behind the ball). The one striker they have is easy clear of our midfield and about 20 yards ahead of him are our back 4.

The guy on the ball. WALKS with the ball at his feet pretty slowly, whilst all four of my defends ALSO WALK backwards very slowly, it's surreal, and after about 5-6 seconds he suddenly starts to run, ghosts past the whole back four and scores.

Now that's all well and good, but the way my defenders are set up, is to close players down and one of the centre backs has a stopper command and he is even further back than either of them.

The stupid thing is I'm seeing the later in the season in gets, the lower the IQ of my defenders seem to be. Earlier in the season they were playing well and tackling people, now they are just handing goals on a plate, same players, same tactics, same situations yet suddenly they act like complete ******* who are afraid of the ball.

And before someone says it's about roles and duties, it isn't since we were 15 games unbeaten and can't buy a win lately, because of **** for brains defending, it's  not caused by morale either since it's fine, they're just not carrying out the duties and instructions they were earlier in the year.

Quite frankly the defending in the game this year is ridiculous and the whole ME feels artificial at times since you honestly dont' believe any of the changes you make really have a difference on the outcome and they are ignored, I really like FM16 in many ways but having been a player since the early CM days at times I think matches are either rigged by the game or the whole link between tactics and the ME is broken, it just all feels so artificial the way players totally ignore what you tell them and act like brainless idiots. 

It's clear the game doesn't recognise the awful defending, because I look at the player ratings defenders get and considering the mistakes some of them make, it's truly shocking that the game can give a 7 to a defender who despite being a top class international, willfully derelicted his duties and handed the opposition a 2 goal head start on a silver platter by just standing there like someone who had never even seen a game of football before, and instead looks like a rabbit in headlights,.  

[Guest]

Likely to be the opposition going to a contain mentality as players not closing down opponents using contain is a known issue as it's perceived that they are offering no attacking threat so there's no need to pressure the player in possession. AFAIK this is something that the ME team had on the priority list but it does require a significant change to ensure it does not destroy the balance when other mentalities are used, essentially it's a fix one & risk breaking all the other mentality combinations so was incredibly unsafe to tinker with on the current ME.

[JustinJJJ]

That would explain why the problem always seems to be more likely to happen when the opposition gets a player sent off, since I assume they start using contain then, I always hated it when the opposition got a player sent off and we were not at least 2 goals up because normally it resulted in a boring game and a defensive screw up. 

It just so frustrates me, because the most frustrating thing is seeing the amount of stupid goals conceded, and the second is that no matter what I tell the players at times they just refuse to listen to my instructions.

The amount of goals see scored against me that are purely because of things discussed in this threada is highly frustrating, I'm slaughtering teams some games then I see dumb defending gift them a goal and then they go and play even more defensive and our defenders play worse still and stop closing down at all and we end with a high scoring game as I have to go attacking myself ot try and counter it. 

I  watched the full 90 of some of my games when I got particualy frustrated and what astounded me was that in the highlights I was missing out and quite a bit of crap defending as well. The most frustrating thing is the two games I watched we SLAUGHTERED the opposition, they were not even in the game, until our defenders acted like complete idiots, the highlights made the games look much closer than they actually were. 

I'm also very weary about using contain myself, because I know if I do I am only one silly issue away from being in **** street, which obviously doesn't help me defensively either, but my experience with contain is wholly negative, it's like **** defending without having a chance to score vs **** defending and having a chance to score. 

I know it's a cynical to way at look at it, but with the dreadful standard of defending in the ME, why on earth would you sit back and ask them to try and break you down?

[Guest]

I came close to creating a high scoring, possession & passing system, it worked until the final 20-30 minutes of most matches when the opposition would give up & go to a contain mentality, for the remainder of the match they'd pass the ball between their defenders while my players stood they & waited for them to launch a long ball forward.

Had a dig & found my final post on that test run.

Quote

Think we can put to bed the idea that you cannot get high passing numbers in FM, just seen my Gladbach side complete 823 passes against Schalke with a pass completion rate of 91% & 65% possession. Schalke did achieve 397 passes at a pass completion rate of 81% but this was largely due to them going on a contain strategy for the last 24 minutes & me having to watch them pass the ball about at the back while my players refused to close anyone down.

At HT we had 70% possession & 439(91%) passes to 170(77%), when Schalke went to a Contain system we had 67% possession & 633 passes (91%) to 267 (79%) so they managed to add 48% more passes in less than 25% of the match due to the contain approach & lack of closing down from my players.

Also completed 813 passes with 69% possession against Ingolstadt against their 308 passes & against Man Utd in the CL we completed 55 passes with 57% possession to their 384 passes, in typical Utd fashion they won 1-0 due to a silly penalty.

[shirajzl]

10 hours ago, Danchinaski said:

I really hope this FM-fatigue passes, but right now it feels terminal, Has anyone else gone through this rocky patch, and come out the other side?

I had these exact feelings during FM 14. I couldn't get anything going tactically, and even when I did, it frustrated me, especially because of one thing; most goals would be scored (by me and AI) by through ball into the channel between centre-back and fullback. I was tearing my hair out because I didn't know how to stop it, and was even fuming when my team kept scoring like that even though I didn't set my tactic to exploit it.

Anyway, I gave up somewhere in May or June, uninstalled the game, stopped reading the forums, the lot. I didn't think I'd come back for FM 15, but...Come September and new football season, I felt the old urge again, started following the news about the game, came back to forums. Those 3-4 months without even a thought about the game definitely did the trick.

[Wavelberry]

If I see one more goal fly in as a cross from the right hand side 'he scores but he never meant it' I'm going to go and kick that puppy at the end of my road.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Wavelberry said:

If I see one more goal fly in as a cross from the right hand side 'he scores but he never meant it' I'm going to go and kick that puppy at the end of my road.

Ha, I get that all the time in my lower league save.

Agree with the above posts regarding mentalities too, it feels to me like the more defensive mentalities are a little too overpowered and result in the players in possession of the ball suddenly having 20 composure and 20 decisions because they'll casually hold on to the ball even when being bumrushed by 3 of my players, then just turn away and pick out a clever pass afterwards.  This isn't too much of a problem as they're usually far away from my box but it's so frustrating to watch players with terrible attributes play an incredibly measured, slow passing game without a care in the world, even under pressure.

Another thing I've noticed with defensive mentalities is the teams are able to get their shape back very quickly, sprinting back into position, even late in the game, unless caught with a super quick counter.  It can be like playing against Simeone's Atletico at times.  In the Vanarama Southern League.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

2 hours ago, shirajzl said:

I had these exact feelings during FM 14. I couldn't get anything going tactically, and even when I did, it frustrated me, especially because of one thing; most goals would be scored (by me and AI) by through ball into the channel between centre-back and fullback. I was tearing my hair out because I didn't know how to stop it, and was even fuming when my team kept scoring like that even though I didn't set my tactic to exploit it.

Anyway, I gave up somewhere in May or June, uninstalled the game, stopped reading the forums, the lot. I didn't think I'd come back for FM 15, but...Come September and new football season, I felt the old urge again, started following the news about the game, came back to forums. Those 3-4 months without even a thought about the game definitely did the trick.

Heh, My missus is taking the **** out of me because I uninstalled the game so many times this season. >_>

 

I just deleted another save file, that eureka moment was netting me plenty of achievements but again, I didn't enjoy what I was seeing on the field. You'd think after playing for so long I'd be in better control of my emotions over the bloody game.

[CityAndColour]

2 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

If I see one more goal fly in as a cross from the right hand side 'he scores but he never meant it' I'm going to go and kick that puppy at the end of my road.

One of my absolute pet hates was how often I see the "he didn't mean it" mishit cross on FM16. In lower leagues it is literally once a game at least.

Then my real life team (Forest Green) scored in the 91st minute in this exact scenario!

Regardless, I am back on FM15 until '17 is out and I am enjoying it more. FM16, while having its positive points, has been just a massive source of frustration for me, and almost all of it is down to the types of goals scored and buggy defensive movements/reactions.

[Cougar2010]

8 minutes ago, CityAndColour said:

One of my absolute pet hates was how often I see the "he didn't mean it" mishit cross on FM16. In lower leagues it is literally once a game at least.

Then my real life team (Forest Green) scored in the 91st minute in this exact scenario!

Regardless, I am back on FM15 until '17 is out and I am enjoying it more. FM16, while having its positive points, has been just a massive source of frustration for me, and almost all of it is down to the types of goals scored and buggy defensive movements/reactions.

Comments like the above help no-one, its not "literally once a game at least", far from it.

 

Does it happen too often - Probably, yes.

Does it happen once a game - No, I would personally estimate I see it maybe once every 6/7 games which makes it around 6-8 times a season.

[Danchinaski]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

Comments like the above help no-one, its not "literally once a game at least", far from it.

 

 

I'm not sure he meant goals were scored from it every game, tbf. I agree that l see it too often, and at very lower league level these shanked crosses hitting the bar / forcing a save / scoring / whatever was certainly close enough to once a game. I've certainly scored more from Nayim-type hoofs than I've scored from both DFKs and pull-backs from the byline throughout FM16, and whilst the post above may well be "unhelpful" l don't think it's too inaccurate an observation regarding these flukey cross-shots.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

3 hours ago, Danchinaski said:

I'm not sure he meant goals were scored from it every game, tbf. I agree that l see it too often, and at very lower league level these shanked crosses hitting the bar / forcing a save / scoring / whatever was certainly close enough to once a game. I've certainly scored more from Nayim-type hoofs than I've scored from both DFKs and pull-backs from the byline throughout FM16, and whilst the post above may well be "unhelpful" l don't think it's too inaccurate an observation regarding these flukey cross-shots.

 

I noticed the cross-to-bar thing a lot more in 15 than I ever did in 16. 16's got its own set of problems with the criss-crossing in my opinion, though to be fair I haven't played LLM in 16. 

[JustinJJJ]

Tonight I nearly just uninstalled it myself.

I've lost 5 games in a row to teams playing 5-4-1 and not even trying to attack for 90% of the game, where my four defenders have clearly decided that none of them are going to be bothered and may as well not even be there.

I assigned them all to tight marking and closing down and both my centre backs as stopper duty and to tackle hard and I've saw 12 goals go in as the one striker is allowed freedom to do as he pleases.

I absolutely hate going a goal down in games as well, since normally it's a recipe for several more defensive screw ups. An interest stat is In 20 games I have 6 clean sheets (we scored first in all of them) and other 14 games we let in at least two. Didn't let in only one in any game which is an unusual quirk - but it would back up when teams get defensive that is when you are at your most vulnerable at the back. 

[Cougar2010]

1 minute ago, JustinJJJ said:

I assigned them all to tight marking and closing down and both my centre backs as stopper duty and to tackle hard and I've saw 12 goals go in as the one striker is allowed freedom to do as he pleases.

So you destroyed your defensive shape by having your defenders run around like headless chickens chasing the ball and you wonder why you conceded???

and thats before you consider how the defenders must be feeling in terms of morale/teamtalks.

[JustinJJJ]

Headless chickens chasing the ball? if you saw my games you would see nothing is further from the truth, actually the opposite is the case, they are actually running AWAY FROM THE BALL AND THE STRIKER that is what I am trying to stop hence the tactics since the players are so dumb that they don't even try and stop the striker. 

Instead of picking holes with my tactics, maybe you should think about why I have to tell them to do these things? To most people it's common sense that the players should actually realise that maybe one striker vs 4 defenders the one striker shouldn't win unless he's Messi and even then it's far from certain, but in FM one striker beats four defenders far far too much, infact at times it seems that opposition sides playing contain is a great attacking tactic. since it makes my players decide to neglect theirduties totally.

Tackle Hard - They're not doing it
Close Down - They're running away
Stopper - That involves trying to stop a player
Tight Marking - Running away from the player isn't it?

It's a continued problem with defensive teams, the strange thing is if they have 2 or three players running at them they are not scared to get stuck in, the more defensive the teams are we play, the more useless my defenders are. 

I can play the good teams who actually play with something else other than 5-4-1 contain and my defenders can play out of their skins, the thing is that something is flawed when I can play Barcelona with a 4-3-3 with Suarez, Neymar and Messi upfront and we can defend well against that, but we play Bournemouth Playing 4-5-1 with a striker that is next to useless and suddenly my defenders decide that they will not even try and stop the striker.

It's ridiculous. 

[JustinJJJ]

4 hours ago, Danchinaski said:

I'm not sure he meant goals were scored from it every game, tbf. I agree that l see it too often, and at very lower league level these shanked crosses hitting the bar / forcing a save / scoring / whatever was certainly close enough to once a game. I've certainly scored more from Nayim-type hoofs than I've scored from both DFKs and pull-backs from the byline throughout FM16, and whilst the post above may well be "unhelpful" l don't think it's too inaccurate an observation regarding these flukey cross-shots.

It's still quite apparent even in the Championship, I had Nathan Dyer score 7 in a season like that, first time I saw it, I thought what a fluke, but then it started happening way too often. With Dyer normally he was doing ti from the touchline as well and scoring. Very unrealistic 

[Cougar2010]

You'll never be happy with the game as long as you continue to blame it rather than learning where the faults are.  If you aren't interested in learning then you need to step back and consider if FM is your type of game.

 

FM16 is harsher than previous versions when it comes to defence, I would expect FM17 to be harsher still.

[JustinJJJ]

So tell me smartypants, why do my defenders ignore strikers when teams play a defensive and contain tactic?  Why do they care about a front three of Messi, Neymar and Suarez who try and actually take them on, but not care about a ***** striker who walks on the ball? 

Several people in this thread including a mod have stated that there is a problem with the way defenders behave when the opposition go to a contain mentality, are you calling them liars? 

It's got nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with the match engine, because as I said before, if it was due to tactics big teams would slaughter me with the better quality coaching staff, higher attributed managers and vastly better players, but they don't at all, in fact it's the small teams who play defensive seem to cause my defenders the most problems. 

Considering I've been playing FM every year since CM 01/02 and this is the first year I've genuinely been annoyed with the match engine. to the point where it really ruins my enjoyment of the game because I'm actually scared of playing 10 men or teams who play defensively since I know that they'll spent the whole 90 with 10 men behind the ball and their striker can walk through and score with the defenders who continually back off and not put a tackle in.

Whereas exactly the same move from a team who are losing or playing an attacking formation results in my defenders actually defending. I've seen it today as well. We were 1-0 up in a game and they were going hell for leather and my defenders closed down the opposition vast, tackled and didn't back away from making sure they did not get through and attempted to cut out the danger, I saw this happen twice in 70 minutes. 

They score a 35 yarder, and get in my half TWICE in the remaining 20 minutes, in almost similar fashion to what happened earlier in the game, and the difference in behaviour from my defenders is riidicolous, they back off, back off, back off, run away run away, run away, and look scared of the ball, the striker STOPS whilst the defenders stand there and watch, then he suddenly speeds up and scores. It's ridiculous, the fact the opposition have gone into contain mode almost renders all of my instructions useless. 

I don't use FM Scout, FMRTE or play as the top teams or use wonderkid lists of sugar daddies, I play as Ipswich and I've found the majority of people who moan about others complaining are those who took an easy job with elite players or loads of money where it's far easier.

[Guest]

I also hope FM17 is tactically tougher which means more defensive woes for managers but in an odd way that needs to come with massive improvements to defensive AI. Just as with the goal kick counter from FM11 that could only be defended against by doing something AI mangers would not do the user can do a lot to counter against issues with wide defending & passive engagement in the area whereas AI manager cannot because the core problem is deep with the ME mechanics & for the AI managers there is no issue with defending.

[JustinJJJ]

The thing about FM11 as well as the goal kick issue and the famous corner exploit was there were some formations that seem to work no matter how good the players were, I didn't see the AI play them very often, but I was playing in Spain once where they played a particular kind of diamond every week and they hammered virtually everyone, it got pretty tiring. 

I've watched quite a few AI vs AI games in the last week as well and I think the way goals are scored in FM is un-natural, I've seen too many of those cross shots we earlier discussed and too many from bad defensive AI, the fact that the match ratings given to players don't penalise the players for what is clearly bad decisions makes me think that the ME doesn't see the clear problems there are.

There are far too many goals from crosses as well, it's certainly not just a user tactic issue as ell because it happens at AI vs AI matches as well, generally a large number of the goals come from either crosses, bad defensive AI, silly mistakes or cross shots, there appears to be a lot less variety of goals in this game and the feeling that I've seen that kind of goal many times before and it just gets boring after a while.

[Cougar2010]

30 minutes ago, JustinJJJ said:

So tell me smartypants, why do my defenders ignore strikers when teams play a defensive and contain tactic?  Why do they care about a front three of Messi, Neymar and Suarez who try and actually take them on, but not care about a ***** striker who walks on the ball? 

Which team? yours or theirs?

If you play with a defensive or contain mentality your players will stand off more and keep their defensive shape, thats a fact.

 

 

30 minutes ago, JustinJJJ said:

It's got nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with the match engine, because as I said before, if it was due to tactics big teams would slaughter me with the better quality coaching staff, higher attributed managers and vastly better players, but they don't at all, in fact it's the small teams who play defensive seem to cause my defenders the most problems. 

Because you go chasing after them, breaking your defensive shape and leaving space which they can exploit.

 

 

30 minutes ago, JustinJJJ said:

Whereas exactly the same move from a team who are losing or playing an attacking formation results in my defenders actually defending. I've seen it today as well. We were 1-0 up in a game and they were

I don't use FM Scout, FMRTE or play as the top teams or use wonderkid lists of sugar daddies, I play as Ipswich and I've found the majority of people who moan about others complaining are those who took an easy job with elite players or loads of money where it's far easier.

Just shows how wrong you can be then doesn't it.

For the record I've been playing since the beginning of CM and I rarely play as a top team.  If you look at any of the many careers I've posted on the forums you'll see I play by mostly LLM rules which means very strictly starting from somewhere near the bottom.

There doesn't seem much point continuing to answer you though as you seem to have made your mind up but I will make you an offer - Upload your save somewhere and post the link in the thread along with a note stating which matches you feel your problems have happened in and I'll look at them posting my thoughts.

[JustinJJJ]

It's a very crude example I'm posting, but the first example the man in red is able to get past all four defenders with ease, they just back off back off and back off. However the second one is how my defenders behave should there be a striker and two wingers,. 

This happens time and time again, the more defensive the opposition play, the less likely my own team are to do anything about the attacks they do have. There is no change in tactics for either of these scenarios, in the first example they ignore totally what I tell them, in the second example they follow and as you would expect, mark the men up and attempt to disposes the striker. 

"Which team? yours or theirs?"

The opposition. The opposition tactics directly affect how my defenders play.

I can play Barcelona who will play an attacking 4-3-3 and my defenders do what they are told. I play Bournemouth who play contain 4-5-1 and the later is much more effective since my defenders actively try and stop the three men of Barcelona but continually back off the one man from Bournemouth.  

It appears almost like the back 4 say, hey, it's 4 against 1, no danger here lads, lets just let him run towards goal, they're playing contain anyway and 4-5-1 so there is no danger here. 

"Because you go chasing after them, breaking your defensive shape and leaving space which they can exploit."

If you're not going to read my posts, I'm not going to bother answering you. Nobody is doing any chasing, it can be as simple as a goal kick that leads to a knock down by one of the oppositions midfielders, who passes to the single striker, the single striker is now between my midfield and back four, the striker always wins if the opposition are playing contain.

My defenders do not close him down, they are perfectly lined up in a back four at the time and simply just back off or do not attempt to either go to the man on the ball or try and win the ball off him. 

Do you really think that one man in a team that is playing 4-5-1 contain should be able to get past 4 defenders with ease since none of them make any effort to stop him, despite being well positioned to do so, the centre backs shrug their shoulders and basically say that it's not their problem and are only too happy to let him run past them without making an effort to stop them?

The most strange thing is that should said striker and defenders be in exactly the same place, but the striker have options for a pass since they are playing a 4-3-3, suddenly the defenders are interested in the player on the ball and close him down and attempt to tackle him whilst the full backs tightly mark the two wingers as you would expect. There is something very wrong with decision making in that regard. 

 

[Wavelberry]

6 hours ago, Danchinaski said:

I'm not sure he meant goals were scored from it every game, tbf. I agree that l see it too often, and at very lower league level these shanked crosses hitting the bar / forcing a save / scoring / whatever was certainly close enough to once a game. I've certainly scored more from Nayim-type hoofs than I've scored from both DFKs and pull-backs from the byline throughout FM16, and whilst the post above may well be "unhelpful" l don't think it's too inaccurate an observation regarding these flukey cross-shots.

It's very much more visible in LLM

[Guest]

The following goal has a couple of my pet peeves on display, in the ME calculation (match ratings, commentary & Prozone analysis) there were no mistake made by the team that conceded the goal.