A Sacchi-Inspired Flat 4-4-2

[Jambo98]

Right so finally some analysis of how the quest for the Sacchi 442 is going for me.

The results far

Its been a mixed bag. Somewhat bizarely, i am in March and have only drawn one game all season, and that was the very first game! So its been boom or bust......

What is clear is that the current tactic, on its day, is superb. However its clearly not fundementally sound. The amount of loses, and the scale of some of them, confirm that to me.

In there, there is a 2 match recent spell which really brings home that the tactic has potential, but isnt fully sound.

Firstly, the 2 nil win against Lazio. On the face of it, the result doesnt look astonishing. But the match stats are somewhat.

Now its hardly that amazing to have lots of shots in a game, but what was eye catching, and positive, was that of 35 total shots,only 2 were longshots. This means we were really creating genuinely good chances, and getting into the area a lot. The shot analysis confirms that we were getting shots in all the right areas

There were other great highs, like the 9 nil demolition of Verona, but there are also down points. The very next game after the Lazio attacking masterclass, this happened:

Now imagine, an amazing dominant win, followed by a 4 v 1 hammering.....how can that happen........ It would set some of the GD and download crowd on a rant wouldnt it! For me, it just confirms that my tactic has some fundamental holes and flaws. I also have the added issue that my squad is neither fully suited to the tactic, nor of the overall quality i want. In short, work to be done!

What are the problems?

Clearly the results show that the problems are, at the core, defensive. We can score goals like no-ones business, but we let lots in. Well we are playing with "attacking" mentality, and quite an attacking sets of roles and duties, so that is hardly a shock to me. However i need to find a way to make it more solid but still retain the Sacchi philosophies.

Some more specific detail on the issues:

• Despite the desire to keep "tight lines", we are often still left with a gap between defence and midfield, which opponents can ruthlessly take advantage of
  
• Linked to this, centre backs charging out to close down, leaving the obvious space in behind
  
• Offside trap is not being well executed at all
  
• A few silly individual mistakes (short pass backs, missed challenges)
  

The later 2, its hard to do much about tactically. I am comitted to the offside trap to reflect Sacchi, but my players are not ideal for it. Player recruitment might help solve that one. Likewise individual mistakes are partly player related, perhaps partly morale (which in turn links to tactical success).

The other types, i need to work on. Here are some examples of what is happening, to illustrate a bit better:

This is counter attack starting, as you can see, our midfield are cut up the pitch, there is a gap where Totti can pick up the ball. Zapata feels the need to charge out and challenge him. He actually wins the tackle, but what follows isnt good for us

After the initial challenge, the ball breaks to Roma and they move it quickly out to Gervinho. Crucially, look at the positioning of Zapata now. He is out of the game. He just about needs to pay to get back in at this point

Now we are in trouble. Gervinho has taken the ball wide and roma have 2 men quickly breaking forward, who are in behind my entire midfield, and i have a CB who is MIA. This can only end one way.....

And it does. One of the midfield men who has broken forward is free to knock it home at the front post. #Schooled

Then onto a couple of examples from that Chievo disaster:

Now ironically, our team shape here is not bad. All 3 lines are close together, and although the ball has made its way to Botta, if we keep our shape we should be ok.

Uh oh. Where did that shape go? The left side CB has come out to close down, which is slightly strange since the right side one was closed (both have same role and duty and PI). That has now left a gap, and we can see that our LCM is ball watching and not tracking the runner.

And there we go. Rami looks like he is stepping up in a vane attempt at an offside trap, but the fullbacks are headed the other way. The MC has not tracked the runner, and Alex is out of position from his initial charge to close down. Paloschi slots home for the first of his 4 goals (always nice when a former player comes back to haunt you!)

Tweaks?

Ok so clearly i need to do something. Here are my initial tweaks

Mentality - Attacking down to Control - So i said in my "OP" that Sacchi liked to attack. He did, he had an idea of 5 men ahead of the ball when in possession. By Italian standards in 1989, he was "very attacking". However that should be set against the fact that most of italy was still loyal to catenaccio. I believe i can still achieve the attacking principle of Sacchi using roles/duties and PI without needing to go with the extreme mentality. So notching it back one.

Dline - Add TI "Much higher defensive line" - This is to counteract the drop in dline i will see by changing the mentality. I still want a very high line, its key to the defending approach of Sacchi

Closing down - Removed some PI - As well as the TI, and the closing down that came from the "Attacking mentality", i had "close down much more" on most players (Not the DC, who have the opposite active). I have lost a bit of closing down going to "Control", but i also want to remove the PI from fullbacks and all my midfield. Sacchi's closing down was more measured, and my team were resembling a Klopp style high energy chase. Lets see how it looks with the TI still active now. The strikers keep the PI as they should always work hard for the team.

DLP - Change duty from defend to support - This might seem a bit strange on the face of it, giving that i am trying to correct defensive issues. However i did this to try and prevent vertical spaces between my midfield. If we get the dline and pressing right, then the midfield in a more flat horizontal line should not be a bad thing. Overall still not totally settled on this role/duty for the "Ancelotti" role, but for now going with this.

I also need to sort out the players suitablity, but my hands are a bit tied. Money is tight, we have a huge wage bill and about 348 players loaned out. I did mange to bring in Lucas Romero for the DLP slot in January, who is more of an all round player than De Jong, who for me is a destroyer type, which is against the Sacchi principles of what a player should be. Hopefully the end of season 1 will allow more movement here.

I will try and post some more updates and some more actually analysis of how it does work later. I think its better to see things in action than just hear about how its set up afterall

[peleJunior]

Jambo, check out Alberto Paloschi's PPM's, it might give you a reason why he hit 4 against your high line!

[mattrjones]

You should look up 'coaching the Italian 4-4-2 with arrigo sacchi' on you tube.

About 20 minutes in he goes through the defense/attack transition. Basically it's a flat 442 in defense and a 442 box midfield in attack, with the wings moving inside. Hope this helps

[herne79]

Brilliant analysis Jambo.

Those centre backs stepping up can cause havoc can't they? I see the same thing now and again, and I doubt it's something we can every entirely eliminate. I think it's the single most important area to get right, and probably the most difficult. What I did, which may give you some extra ideas, was:

- Don't expect too much from the team in season one. Some already are suited to Sacchi, some can be developed into it, some will never hack it. I think you already knew that from the beginning of the season though .

- Removed all closing down TI and PIs (except the 2 strikers) and gave the centre backs close down less PI (I'll occasionally change this to close down much less if facing a particularly deadly attack). An attacking mentality, as you are well aware, comes with a fairly heavy press by default and I found it to be enough

- Pacey central defenders with good mental stats were pretty high on my shopping list. Rami and Zapata are ok as the BPD/CD combination with Albertazzi so-so as backup, Alex's mentals are ok but 11 pace sucks, and the rest are junk (sorry Mexes!). Training a new centre back with Quickness until he hits 15 pace has some value too. Take a look at Marc-Oliver Kempf at Freiburg .

- Have you tried the TI "Be More Disciplined"? As I mentioned above, I have no idea why this seems to work, and it actually seems contrary to how we are trying to play. However the only real noticeable affect it seems to have is to keep my central defenders a bit more in check.

- Dropping mentality is definitely worthwhile, especially if you are squad building. Perhaps you'll be able to ramp it back up to attacking when you have better players?

In terms of your other tweaks, Lucas Romero was my number one target as well. His compatriot Gaston Gil Romero is also worth a long hard look at. In the mean time, you should have Montolivo back from his long term injury to give you another decent option in midfield.

And finally, interesting that you have also switched to 2 x support duties in central midfield now - I'll be really interested in how that develops for you.

Keep it up .

[Jambo98]

Jambo, check out Alberto Paloschi's PPM's, it might give you a reason why he hit 4 against your high line!

yes good point. Although with good players, i would wager on my offside trap beating his PPM ability, since although he is a nice player, he isnt really top class.

In fairness, in this game only the goal shown came from high line issues. The others were Long shot (with 3 players between him and goal - tip of the hat type goal), header from a corner and a catostrophic defensive error where my 2 CB tacked each other in the box, letting the ball run free and he had a tap in!

Be interested to know if many others have successfully used the offside trap in any system? What do people see as they key attributes? For me:

Anticipation - To judge where the ball is going to be, which sets up the offside trap movement

Decisions - An obvious one i guess, deciding when to push up and when not to

Positioning - Need to be in the right base position before an effective offside trap can work

Teamwork - Its vital that the back 4 functions as a single unit, otherwise the entire concept fails

Concentration - To a lesser extent, but will come into effect later in games. Low concentration means lapses late in games, and a lapse with this type of defense can be more crucial than with others

Acceleration/pace - I dont see these as vital to the execution of the offside trap, but they do come into play in terms of recover if/when you get it wrong and someone breaks the offside trap. However, get it right more often and it wont be an issue!

[Jambo98]

You should look up 'coaching the Italian 4-4-2 with arrigo sacchi' on you tube.

About 20 minutes in he goes through the defense/attack transition. Basically it's a flat 442 in defense and a 442 box midfield in attack, with the wings moving inside. Hope this helps

Thanks, i have watched some parts of that video and it is a good source. However it is based on an absolute "template" 442 Sacchi, rather than exactly how his Milan side played. For one example, the segment you mention where it shows the attacking shape becoming "box like" is not the full reflection of how his Milan side played in reality. Rijkaard was often far more advanced (hence the "5 men ahead of the ball" attitude which Sacchi talked about during his Milan time). Likwise although the wide men often cut in, Donadoni in particular was equally likely to deliver a cross from wide. Van Basten and also Virdis (an under-rated part of the first season team) were very capable in the air.

None the less, its a very nice little coaching video Cheers

[RTHerringbone]

Those images of DCs stepping out to close an advancing attacker are pretty standard behaviour in FM. They are, to a degree, exacerbated by the Mentality you use (whose inherent defensive line will determine the default level of closing down). Adding the TI of Close Down More adds an incremental impact to Closing Down, and even applying a PI of Close Down Much Less will see the DC still Close Down a touch, as their personal Closing Down settings are still affected by the Team level settings (they are not mutually exclusive, as was the case in FM14).

In addition, the absence of a true DM is a factor, as the presence of a deeper midfielder suppresses (to an extent) the need for one DC to fill in as an emergency Stopper. I was a bit surprised the DLP (D) wasn't effective. Switching to a Support Duty will not do you any favours, so the only really viable alternative is a CM (D) in a Role / Duty sense.

I think you have a few options, including:

i) Tweak the DLP (S) to CM (D)

ii) Use PIs rather than TIs to influence Closing Down, so as not to affect the DCs

iii) What happens if you use two DC Cover players? Can that help reduce the Closing Down?

iv) Consider options which might compromise the vision - Stick To Positions as a TI and a more Rigid Team Shape to further aim to reduce the Stopper tendencies of DCs with no DM cover

[Jambo98]

Brilliant analysis Jambo.

Those centre backs stepping up can cause havoc can't they? I see the same thing now and again, and I doubt it's something we can every entirely eliminate. I think it's the single most important area to get right, and probably the most difficult. What I did, which may give you some extra ideas, was:

- Don't expect too much from the team in season one. Some already are suited to Sacchi, some can be developed into it, some will never hack it. I think you already knew that from the beginning of the season though .

- Removed all closing down TI and PIs (except the 2 strikers) and gave the centre backs close down less PI (I'll occasionally change this to close down much less if facing a particularly deadly attack). An attacking mentality, as you are well aware, comes with a fairly heavy press by default and I found it to be enough

- Pacey central defenders with good mental stats were pretty high on my shopping list. Rami and Zapata are ok as the BPD/CD combination with Albertazzi so-so as backup, Alex's mentals are ok but 11 pace sucks, and the rest are junk (sorry Mexes!). Training a new centre back with Quickness until he hits 15 pace has some value too. Take a look at Marc-Oliver Kempf at Freiburg .

- Have you tried the TI "Be More Disciplined"? As I mentioned above, I have no idea why this seems to work, and it actually seems contrary to how we are trying to play. However the only real noticeable affect it seems to have is to keep my central defenders a bit more in check.

- Dropping mentality is definitely worthwhile, especially if you are squad building. Perhaps you'll be able to ramp it back up to attacking when you have better players?

In terms of your other tweaks, Lucas Romero was my number one target as well. His compatriot Gaston Gil Romero is also worth a long hard look at. In the mean time, you should have Montolivo back from his long term injury to give you another decent option in midfield.

And finally, interesting that you have also switched to 2 x support duties in central midfield now - I'll be really interested in how that develops for you.

Keep it up .

Cheers for the feedback and info sharing

I think the "Be more disciplined" shout is a good one. Reading that, it absolutely fits Sacchi's philosophy. The description talks about "making a stronger collective group" and "at the expense of expression" - Sacchi himself could have written that! It very much reflects his style and i will abo****ely add it. In hindsight, it should have been one of the TI all along to try and recreate this tactic.

In terms of the closing down, its a tricky balance to get right (as i will reflect shortly in my reply to RTH!). As i have now dropped mentality from Attacking to Control, i have lost some of the pressing, which is why i still have the TI active. I do believe that to reflect Sacchi, you do need quite a high amount of pressing, although not excessive in the Pep/Klopp style. Had i kept "attacking" i would defo have removed the TI. Its the one area i will most closely monitor for further tweaks

Re the squad, yes its pretty poor IMO, which is why i never expected much in season 1. The one massive surprise for me has been Pazzini as AF(a). He has 32 goals in 26 games for me, which is much better than i expected. I had kind written him off as a one season player, until i could find better, but actually he is doing the Van Basten role very well. Likwise El-Shaarawy in the Gullit role works really nicely. A few injuries have hampered him, but 10 assists and 8 goals in 17 games is good enough for me any day.

Midfield wise, Montolivio is one i have to make a decision on. His mentals are nice, but he has a few PPM's which dont really make him suitable for the Ancelotti role. They look more like the RPM role, but i dont think he has the physicals to play that role. He is also 30, with an injury history and on 100k a week. Its likely i will get rid of him. Poli is another i am not sure about. He seems "good" at a lot of things, without being "great" at many. I had him as the RPM initially, due to lack of other options, but i might give him a go as DLP to compete with Romero. I had both Lucas Romero and Gaston Gil Romero in my succesfull Liverpool save, so both well known and respected by me. I am also reasonably impressed by Bonaventura - A player a liked a lot whilst he was at Atalanta and his versatility will likely keep him around.

At the back, i let Mexes go before the season. Too old and on too much money. I went with Alex and Rami, and Zapata became unhappy so again with him being on 70K per week, i let him go in Jan (i hate back up players on a huge wage!). Lots of research to do if i want to find player for "Sacchi" style next season

Those images of DCs stepping out to close an advancing attacker are pretty standard behaviour in FM. They are, to a degree, exacerbated by the Mentality you use (whose inherent defensive line will determine the default level of closing down). Adding the TI of Close Down More adds an incremental impact to Closing Down, and even applying a PI of Close Down Much Less will see the DC still Close Down a touch, as their personal Closing Down settings are still affected by the Team level settings (they are not mutually exclusive, as was the case in FM14).

In addition, the absence of a true DM is a factor, as the presence of a deeper midfielder suppresses (to an extent) the need for one DC to fill in as an emergency Stopper. I was a bit surprised the DLP (D) wasn't effective. Switching to a Support Duty will not do you any favours, so the only really viable alternative is a CM (D) in a Role / Duty sense.

I think you have a few options, including:

i) Tweak the DLP (S) to CM (D)

ii) Use PIs rather than TIs to influence Closing Down, so as not to affect the DCs

iii) What happens if you use two DC Cover players? Can that help reduce the Closing Down?

iv) Consider options which might compromise the vision - Stick To Positions as a TI and a more Rigid Team Shape to further aim to reduce the Stopper tendencies of DCs with no DM cover

Cheer RTH, your views are always great and often spot things i dont

The defenders rushing out i recall from almost being "bug like" in FM14, and i have seen quite a few other posts about it this year. What surprises me a little, as that i never had any issue with it in my 451, either at Liverpool or Hearts. That tactic had no DM, although it did have 2 DLP, including one on Defend.

IMO, the CM(D) is a heavy closing down role by default, so i would need to try and mitigate that amidst the already complex closing down settings (which i will come back onto!). I think 2 x DC as a cover would almost be an "ME workaround" for me. Its not how a defence should really setup, and i dont believe its how the Sacchi 442 would ever be described.

The second option you list is probably where i need to work. I think we have touched on this in other threads, but it is immensely frustrating and difficult to judge what closing down is actually set as, at any given time. The baked in mentality effect, the role default effect, the TI and the PI all need to be considered, but we have no way of knowing to which extent each "moves" it. We know it is a "stacking" effect, but we dont know the size of the respective stacks! However, i recognise that there is nothing we can do about thi until Sega choose to dedicate some resources to a solution, so for now we have to work with what we get.

I am going to run a few games with my revised settings (including "Be more disciplined") and see how it goes. If closing down still doesn't look and feel right for the tactic i am trying to replicate, I will try your suggestion of removing the TI and re-instating the PI for relevant players. It feels a bit "wrong" as it should be a team philosophy, but that may have to be the solution.

I think more rigid team shape would be a viable solution if i were simply trying to make the tactic "better", but i feel it goes away from the Sacchi approach to the game, hence for the moment i have ruled that one out

Shall post up some more analysis in a bit

[Jambo98]

Grr i think this quest is going to break me!

Playing on a bit with tweaks, but is still not "right". We just lost a crazy match 5 v 4 against Genoa, and our defending is so poor. Part of it is tactical, part of it is players.

However, what is playing on my mind the most is the midfield. I can very much see why the chap who created the Sacchi tactic last year (and in FM13 IIRC) had to sarcrafice part of the flat 442 principle and use 2 DMs. It would make it so much easier, but i shall continue to try and honor Arrigo! The role i have been thinking about most, is one that from the start i thought i was fully committed. Frank Rijkaard, and the Roaming playmaker. It sounded perfect for recreating his type of role.

I am now doubting myself. Part of me says, making him a DLP(s) with some PPMs and you will better reflect Rijkaard. In game, the RPM seems to neglect defensive duties in a way that Rijkaard would never be allowed to do in the Sacchi team. I have also been mulling over some articles and clips of that team again. Rijkaard is almost exclusively described as "a defensive midfielder" (or "defender from his time at centre back). Indeed he played almost exclusively at Centre back for Ajax, and for a time at Milan. Sacchi is credited with turning him into " a world class defensive midfielder". Wiki (hardly the most reliable source!!) cites the fact that players like Viera were influenced by him.

I am starting to think that roaming playmaker is too attacking to really reflect what Rijkaard was all about. Regista would be a suitable role, but not available in the MC strata. I am going to try and watch some more clips, but i am leaning towards believing he was more of a DLP(s) or even a CM(s) if i wanted to make it a little more "vanilla".

As an aside, found

which has the entire infamous 5 v 0 Real Madrid game, including English commentary! I have not yet watched it all (only the first 5mins) but i think i shall view it at some point

Also an incredible fact which i had never known about this game. About 90 secs into the match action, the game stops, at first i assumed for a foul. However it was actually because that was 3:06pm. The time of course, when 4 days earlier that horrible day had unfolded in Sheffield. The game is stopped at exactly that time (its a little strange that it kicked off about 2mins before, but in someones makes it all the more symbolic). The eurosport coverage talks about a minutes silence, and actually seems to "jump" a little during it. However if you watch

the true events of that 90 seconds or so are much clearer. The crowd start to sign "you'll never walk alone", very clearly. Spine tingling stuff to watch back now.

From some google searches, it seems this is hardly a little known fact (quite a few articles, including mainstream media), so lots of people might have seen it before, but is a poignant watch none the less.

[peleJunior]

Fantastic find with that video! Going to watch that right now.

I suspect you are going to have to go very creative(you yourself, not FM creativity) with a defend role in midfield to finally gain some solidity. I'd choose a generic role like CMd and the load it up with PPM's and PI's to get close to how Sacchi played him.

[themadsheep2001]

Love a Saachi 4-4-2. Has prompted me to rebuild my own from FM14 and give it a go.

[Jambo98]

Just watched the first 25mins of the AC Milan V Real Madrid game from 1989 (in full). Observations so far:

1) Ancelotti and Rijkaard both start deep and do cover back (in the MC strata still though), but they very much take it in turns to get forward. Rijkaard is the more aggresive of the 2 when he does go forward.

2) The wide men really do work back a lot. Donadoni and Colombo are often right back doubling up with their fullbacks. They also do cut inside a lot, but still stay wide on occasion

3) The fullbacks get forward a bit more than i expected. Maldini in particular (one bit, about 19mins in, he dribbles past about 4 men in the opposing half:eek: - this is not Maldini as i remember him!)

4) Gullit plays on the same side as Rijkaard, which is the opposite to how i have set it up.

So what would that possibly translate to in my tactic?

1) I think a DLP compo might be suitable. DLP(d) and DLP(s) together is something i like. Either that or could almost argue something very plain like 2 x CM(s) or 1 x CM(d) and 1 x CM(s). The alternating attacking responsibility is something which has always been impossible to properly recreate in FM. The only possibly option is "swap position" which does not fully reflect it. I am inclined to go DLP(d) + DLP(s) and "swap position", plus perhaps a PI or 2 to reflect it

2) I might be too attacking to properly translate how Donadoni and Colombo play (and from what i have seen in other clips, Evani was even more cautious). WM(s) might be a more reflective role. I am not sure how this will play out in the tactic, but i may well give it a go.

3) I might be bold and give the left back an "attack" duty. It might balance the tactic as well

4) I can easily just switch my strikers. The current setup looks good going forward, and it is quite evident that Van Basten and Gullit "swap" sides time to time. Sacchi liked to encourage "criss cross" runs from his strikers which again is not all that easy to recreate!

Well worth watching this game in full, its nice and nostaligic too Clearly there is a risk in taking only one game to try and analyse a team system, but i am using it to compliment what i have already learned from books and articles. Be interesting to see if anyone else watching it back has similar observations!

[peleJunior]

What struck me was the lack of a high line but they still pressed. Milan at one stage ( this may well be a trigger ) played offside very deep when some of their players were caught high up the pitch turning over possesion. They let Madrid get so far then the whole back four pushed up from a deep position. It looked very risky but Sacchi had them drilled so well.

[themadsheep2001]

Jambo have you tried a Roaming Playmaker/BBM double pivot?

[Jambo98]

Jambo have you tried a Roaming Playmaker/BBM double pivot?

I cant say i have, for 2 main reasons:

1)The true double pivot cannot be created in the FM ME/TC. A true double pivot would have the players effectively "taking turns" to go forward. I can see no setting to allow this. The closes is "swap positions" which, although somewhat replicating it, doesnt truley do it.

2)My experience so far is that RPM is not suitable for a midfield with only CM players. He seems to shirt defensive duties even more than an AP would do, which, in a 4 man midfield, really will not cut it. It could very well be that it is just the players i have available who cause this impression, but having tried it with a few players, it doesnt work for me. I do think the RPM can be a great role in other systems, but in this one it leaves me too exposed.

BBM is a role i was considering whilst watching the first half of the Milan v Real game mentioned above. It could be an option for the "Ancelotti" role, but again i think it leaves you without a defensive duty in that middle area. Possibly a BBM/DLP(d) combo with "swap positions might create something suitable?

Great to hear if you have made RPM work in a midfield 4 - i am sure it can be done (to be fair, look at what herne has achieved with it!) but it doesnt seem to create the right effect for my team at the moment

[iciomn]

Some observations from a man who saw more times the 'Invincible's' Milan team:

1) both fullbacks get forward: Maldini on left side (more) and Tassotti on right side (less)

2) Donadoni moved often from right side into the center

3) while Donadoni get into center Colombo always run on right side and go for cross (it was a DM with good run and cross and he never cutted inside but stay always on right side)

4) Ancelotti was a 'low regista' while Rijkard was more like an universal midfilder because he was primary a defensive mid but he was also able to go in attack

5) Gullit was an attacker that stay a little behind Van Basten and moved on the entire attacking space (left-center-right)

6) Van Basten was not a poacher but was a really complete forward

7) Sacchi never, never played with 2 DM

8) in Milan-Real Madrid, due to injuries, Ancelotti was on left side but clearly was not his role

If i try to replicate the Milan's Midfield from left to side i should use:

Wing (Evani) - DM or Regista (Ancelotti/Rijkard) - Box to Box midfield (Donadoni) - MR (Colombo)

Also 'very fluid' sounds strange for me, because Sacchi's teams were always a rigid exercise of scheme and movements, from defense to attack, with limited space for improvisations.

[Jambo98]

Some observation from a man who saw more times the 'Invincible's' Milan team:

1) both fullbacks get forward: Maldini on left side (more) and Tassotti on right side (less)

2) Donadoni moved often from right side into the center

3) while Donadoni get into center Colombo always run on right side and go for cross (it was a DM with good run and cross and he never cutted inside but stay always on right side)

4) Ancelotti was a 'low regista' while Rijkard was more like an universal midfilder because he was primary a defensive mid but he was also able to go in attack

5) Gullit was an attacker that stay a little behind Van Basten and moved on the entire attacking space (left-center-right)

6) Van Basten was not a poacher but was a really complete forward

7) Sacchi never, never played with 2 DM

8) in Milan-Real Madrid, due to injuries, Ancelotti was on left side but clearly was not his role

If i try to replicate the Milan's Midfield from left to side i should use:

Wing (Evani) - DM or Regista (Ancelotti/Rijkard) - Box to Box midfield (Donadoni) - MR (Colombo)

Also 'very fluid' sounds strange for me, because Sacchi's teams were always a rigid exercise of scheme and movements, from defense to attack, with limited space for improvisations.

Thanks for that, its great to hear from someone who saw it all at the time

Most of what your have said is line with what i had thought, but some interesting insights there. I did notice that one wide man always stayed wide, whilst the other cut in, but the games i have watched it seemed that Donadoni and Colombo would switch places at times. However from what you say, Donadoni was always the one to cut inside.

Your notes on the strikers are very much what i would expect - perhaps means i need to give the "gullit" role more freedom to roam from left to right to centre.

Re "Very Fluid", i think the reason it sound strange is that there is a bit of a misconception about what the term actually means in FM. Its is not soley used to describe how much creative freedom or roaming allowance there is. It also governs the teams overall mentality split. I think you are absolutely right that there was a discipline to Sacchi's teams, which is where the TI "Be more disciplined" comes in. However Sacchi, unless i am mistaken, also very much insisted that ever player in his team must be able to do more than one thing. Each must be capable of both defensive work and attacking work (with the exception of the centre backs). This is why i believe "Very Fluid", with the addition of the TI, better reflects that philosophy.

If you look at what "Very rigid" would do, it would mean defenders are only there to defend, attackers to attack, midfielders to transition. I wouldnt see that as how Milan played?

[RTHerringbone]

If you look at what "Very rigid" would do, it would mean defenders are only there to defend, attackers to attack, midfielders to transition. I wouldnt see that as how Milan played?

Don't forget the importance of Roles / Duties within the context of Team Shape. It is not cut and dried like you state above.

[Jambo98]

Don't forget the importance of Roles / Duties within the context of Team Shape. It is not cut and dried like you state above.

Well, i agree that its not totally cut and dried, but i am reasonably sure i just about copied exactly the description wording in game?

I think i know what you mean though. A complete wingback(attack) in a "Very rigid" system is still going to get forward. However the split of mentalities across the team is much wider the more "rigid" you go. It starts to seperate the team into "units" for different functions?

It is however an interesting question as to which best reflects Sacchi. I can certainly see, in principle, the argument for "Rigid" (or "structured" as it now is), in terms of the team keeping an overall shape, having very prescribed positions to play. My initial view was that very fluid more represented his beliefs around "generalist" players and his dislike of "specialist" players. However it may be that this is something which should be reflected by role/duty and of course player recruitment rather than by overall team shape? I am happy to take on feedback here in terms of best reflecting his teams approach.

I am starting to talk myself into something more "structure", taking on board your point that i could use role/duty to somewhat mitigate the "limiting" effect it has on the phases a player gets involved in.

[Cleon]

If you want generalists then do it via roles imo unless you want more creative generalists (than the role normally allows) in the side then do it via team shape.

[RTHerringbone]

Well, i agree that its not totally cut and dried, but i am reasonably sure i just about copied exactly the description wording in game?........I am starting to talk myself into something more "structure", taking on board your point that i could use role/duty to somewhat mitigate the "limiting" effect it has on the phases a player gets involved in.

To give my comment context to anyone reading this - it actually stems from your images above where the DC steps out and knackers your defence.

I started a new save with Boca last night and set up a basic 4-1-2-3 DM (4-1-2-2-1 in FM14 terms, 4-5-1 in my terms ) Even with the presence of an Anchor Man, there were occasions where that nasty Stopper behaviour stood out. To suppress that, I went Highly Structured to make my Defend Duty players focus on defending (the DCs and the Anchor) and added TIs to Be More Disciplined and Stay On Feet to hold a better defensive shape.

That doesn't isolate the choice of Team Shape as the key factor, but the combination of those changes appear (in just five matches) to have improved matters. In game descriptions aren't always the best and Team Shape can be a concept which can be over-thought. As long as you know why you are applying the instructions you are applying, then do it and then let the best tools of all - your eyes - judge to see if the instructions match your understanding.

[iciomn]

Thanks for that, its great to hear from someone who saw it all at the time

Most of what your have said is line with what i had thought, but some interesting insights there. I did notice that one wide man always stayed wide, whilst the other cut in, but the games i have watched it seemed that Donadoni and Colombo would switch places at times. However from what you say, Donadoni was always the one to cut inside.

Your notes on the strikers are very much what i would expect - perhaps means i need to give the "gullit" role more freedom to roam from left to right to centre.

Re "Very Fluid", i think the reason it sound strange is that there is a bit of a misconception about what the term actually means in FM. Its is not soley used to describe how much creative freedom or roaming allowance there is. It also governs the teams overall mentality split. I think you are absolutely right that there was a discipline to Sacchi's teams, which is where the TI "Be more disciplined" comes in. However Sacchi, unless i am mistaken, also very much insisted that ever player in his team must be able to do more than one thing. Each must be capable of both defensive work and attacking work (with the exception of the centre backs). This is why i believe "Very Fluid", with the addition of the TI, better reflects that philosophy.

If you look at what "Very rigid" would do, it would mean defenders are only there to defend, attackers to attack, midfielders to transition. I wouldnt see that as how Milan played?

I agree that every man should be able to do more phases but always in a detailed 'plan'.....when in defensive phase every player knows the position to occupy considering ball, mates and attackers.....in every zone of the picth. Same when Milan was in attack: movements were synchronized and the schemes were tested and replicated very hard in training because Sacchi was a real hammer.....there weren't really not much space for individual freedom of play ..... with 'very rigid' or 'rigid' you should use role/duties in another way to reach the Milan's movements...but i think that the 'very fluid' approach was not correct for a team that was like a 'swiss watch'. Anyway with sliders i replicate quite perfectly Sacchi's Milan ...... now my personal idea is that the concepts now used in TC are too 'abstract' and not correctly linked with real football...and so is not easy to replicate the real football because there are too many 'resctrictions' and the TC is quite a 'black box' without complete explanations of wthat happend when you choose a thing .... not an easy task but anyway an exciting challenge....i'll try to write my idea of Sacchi's Milan that worked quite well in FM2014

[iciomn]

My starting point for a flat 4-4-2, porting from FM2014

Fluidity - Rigid (structured)

Mentality - Standard

Team instructions

Use offside trap

Play narrower

Higher tempo

Higher defensive line

Close down more

Roles/duties:

Gk - Defend

FbR - Wingback - Support

FbL – Complete outer - Support

DC – Central def - Defend

DC – Central def - Defend

MCR – Central midfielder - Attack

MCL – Deep regista - Defend

WR – Wide midfielder - Support

WL - Winger - Attack

FwR – Advanced forward - Attack

FwL – Deep lying forward - Support

Player instructions

GK – pass to fullbacks

DCs – more pressing – short passing

FBs – stay wider – run wide with ball - more pressing – get further forward

MCL – direct passing – more pressing

MCR – more roaming – more pressing

WR – stay wider – run wide with ball – more dribbling – get further forward – tackle harder (optional: tight marking)

WL – tackle harder – free roaming (optional: tight marking)

FwR – tackle harder – move into channels

FwL – short passing – tackle harder – free roaming

Especially for defenders players must have some good attributes for make a good work in offside trap and pressing

Pace - acceleration - anticipations - decisions - positioning - teamwork - aggressivity - concentration

[herne79]

Just updated the OP to more properly highlight this thread contains discussion of 2 tactics, otherwise new readers may get confused .

[Jambo98]

My starting point for a flat 4-4-2, porting from FM2014

Fluidity - Rigid (structured)

Mentality - Standard

Team instructions

Use offside trap

Play narrower

Higher tempo

Higher defensive line

Close down more

Roles/duties:

Gk - Defend

FbR - Wingback - Support

FbL – Complete outer - Support

DC – Central def - Defend

DC – Central def - Defend

MCR – Central midfielder - Attack

MCL – Deep regista - Defend

WR – Wide midfielder - Support

WD - Winger - Attack

FwR – Advanced forward - Attack

FwL – Deep lying forward - Support

Player instructions

GK – pass to fullbacks

DCs – more pressing – short passing

FBs – stay wider – run wide with ball - more pressing – get further forward

MCL – direct passing – more pressing

MCR – more roaming – more pressing

WR – stay wider – run wide with ball – more dribbling – get further forward – tackle harder (optional: tight marking)

WL – tackle harder – free roaming (optional: tight marking)

FwR – tackle harder – move into channels

FwL – short passing – tackle harder – free roaming

Especially for defenders players must have some good attributes for make a good work in offside trap and pressing

Pace - acceleration - anticipations - decisions - positioning - teamwork - aggressivity - concentration

Thank you for taking the time to lay that out - Very interesting and informative. Can i just check some of your translations (I am guessing English is not your first language, and yet it puts many people's English to shame!)

Complete Outer = Complete wing back? That is a pretty adventurous role for Maldini type, but having watched that Real game he did get forward a lot more than i remembered in his later years

Deep Regista = Deep Lying Playmaker? (The regista role is not available in the MC spot in game?)

Overall, that is actually quite similar to what i have in mind. I was going to make the LB more attacking, and i definitely see variation between the 2 wide men. The CM(a) for Rijkaard is more adventurous than i have, but its food for though

[herne79]

I see there has been a fair amount of discussion on Team Shape (aka Fluidity). I guess the use of "Fluid" / "Very Fluid" stems from the thought that Sacchi took inspiration from Michel's Ajax and Total Football - applying that ethos into FM leads us down this Fluid path.

However, taking a step back for a moment, are we trying to over think this? If we use more attacking mentalities coupled with highly fluid shapes we're going to get centre backs doing crazy things on occasion - this we have seen. But actually, going back to Sacchi for a moment, that's not how his central defenders behaved. If anything, whilst the rest of the team could be thought of as quite Fluid in shape, central defenders I think were pretty rigid.

To represent this more properly in FM, perhaps we should be dialling Shape back to Balanced. This would allow us to have more influence over individual players actions through use of their Roles/Duty, and perhaps help us create better layers of positioning, which is one of Sacchi's core principles.

[iciomn]

Thank you for taking the time to lay that out - Very interesting and informative. Can i just check some of your translations (I am guessing English is not your first language, and yet it puts many people's English to shame!)

Complete Outer = Complete wing back? That is a pretty adventurous role for Maldini type, but having watched that Real game he did get forward a lot more than i remembered in his later years

Deep Regista = Deep Lying Playmaker? (The regista role is not available in the MC spot in game?)

Overall, that is actually quite similar to what i have in mind. I was going to make the LB more attacking, and i definitely see variation between the 2 wide men. The CM(a) for Rijkaard is more adventurous than i have, but its food for though

yes yr translation is correct, i'm italian (italian translation of TI/PI is not really accurate) - the roles are 'complete wing back' and 'deep lying playmaker'. Referring to Maldini idea and considering that the general shape is structured/standard my idea is that we need roles/duties that worked in more phases. About the midfilder ... the original shape in Milan was Colombo as cm and Donadoni as winger, with Donadoni cutting inside while Colombo go wider for cross (it was a classic scheme that really opened the attacking front).....i tried many times to replicate these movements but quite always without success.....

[Cleon]

Have you watched this video? It will help you understand what you need to do to create this on FM as he talks about and shows the principles of how/why it works. The roles he used in real life aren't necessarily the same on FM;

[video=youtube_share;e53nGPMqQTE]

[Jambo98]

Thanks Cleon, yes we did discuss that very video a bit further up. There is some good stuff in there, my only one feeling was that it is an instruction manual more around a "generic" Sacchi 442 as opposed to specifically how he set up that great Milan side. However it should be 90% similar, with just some allowances made for the specific player types he had at Milan.

I shall give it another watch now though, between that and the full 90mins Real Madrid match, plenty real life material

[Cleon]

That's kind of the point though, his 442 was rather generic and even the great Milan side didn't play the exact same way all the time. How they played based on the opposition and what system they used. Something were set in stone though but not as many as the articles etc would have you believe, you only have to go and watch some of their games to see that.

Unless you are focusing on 1 particular match and base the tactic off that? That's what I tend to do if I want to be specific

[Jambo98]

I see there has been a fair amount of discussion on Team Shape (aka Fluidity). I guess the use of "Fluid" / "Very Fluid" stems from the thought that Sacchi took inspiration from Michel's Ajax and Total Football - applying that ethos into FM leads us down this Fluid path.

However, taking a step back for a moment, are we trying to over think this? If we use more attacking mentalities coupled with highly fluid shapes we're going to get centre backs doing crazy things on occasion - this we have seen. But actually, going back to Sacchi for a moment, that's not how his central defenders behaved. If anything, whilst the rest of the team could be thought of as quite Fluid in shape, central defenders I think were pretty rigid.

To represent this more properly in FM, perhaps we should be dialling Shape back to Balanced. This would allow us to have more influence over individual players actions through use of their Roles/Duty, and perhaps help us create better layers of positioning, which is one of Sacchi's core principles.

I think you raise a very good point here. There is, i suppose, a difference between:

A) Choosing the roles/duties/instructions/fluidity which, by description and in theory, sound most like the Sacchi System

and

B) Choosing the roles/duties/instructions/fluidity which produce football on the pitch which reflects the Sacchi System/principles.

I think what you are saying, and it is similar to RTH point and to an extent Cleon's point about how to create "generalists", is that we really need to think more in terms of Option B. The ME will always have a certain amount of limitations, it is, afterall, a simulation not the real world. Also the TC is perhaps still not where it could be to allow us the freedom and knowledge, nor are the ingame descriptors quite accurate.

So by pursuing Option B, i might pick a role which sounds a little "wrong" (For example CM(a) for Rijkaard), but if what it creates on the pitch is similar to how played in this system, then that should be the end goal

That's kind of the point though, his 442 was rather generic and even the great Milan side didn't play the exact same way all the time. How they played based on the opposition and what system they used. Something were set in stone though but not as many as the articles etc would have you believe, you only have to go and watch some of their games to see that.

Unless you are focusing on 1 particular match and base the tactic off that? That's what I tend to do if I want to be specific

Yes, i agree to an extent. I think that the video is almost "here is how to set up your base 442" (with some great training detail). Any manager, including of course Sacchi himself, would take that base and give it slight tweaks to suit his personnel and opponents.

I think whilst he did adapt his system somewhat, it was much less than we might see today. A lot of his changes were based on players not being available - That "dream team" line up of the Semi-Final/Final in 89, or the final in 90, were actually not together all that often. Gullit and Van Basten both had major injuries, Costacurta was not always a first pick, Rijkaard also had injuries. I think a lot of the adapting was around the players, but no doubt that from the clips i have watched, and the articles which i tend to lean towards actual Sacchi interviews, or interviews from players from that team (other than the excellent Jonathan Wilson chapter) he did have a clear set of principles which rarely altered.

The last line is a very fair challenge. No team really played the same every game so we do have to choose one game, or at least a shorter time period than 2 years, to focus on. For my part, i mainly looked at the Semi final and final of the European cup in 89, which were perhaps their crowning glory, and the final in 1990, which although less spectacular was an almost identical line-up and still a great result.

Overall i think there is some great discussion in this thread, been fascinating views and insights. Sometimes we might have leaned a little into the real world in 1989 rather than just FM, but that has been fun too

I am about to start season 2, with a new approach to creating the tactic, and a heavily changed squad (which i will pay somewhat of a short term penalty for). I shall lay out my thinking later this arvo. Have the rest of the training video to rewatch first and the second half of the Real game.

[iciomn]

Clearly we are speaking of another era of football (late 80's) but Sacchi's Milan quite never changed it's way of play (injures of key players are the only things that caused some changes); simply it doesn't care about opposition side because Sacchi thought that should be opposition teams to try to stop his team. The system used was always the flat 4-4-2 (defensive phase). It's more or less like Guardiola's Barca. Always press and beat, never worry about other teams.

[Jonny2J]

Really enjoying read this thread.

Been looking for some inspiration to create a sort of Sacchi's Meelan/Lobonovsky's Kiev tactic for a while and this seems the ideal place to start.

[hyrule_king]

Apologies if this has been asked.

How effective do you find the offside trap setting to green to be?

[Jambo98]

Apologies if this has been asked.

How effective do you find the offside trap setting to green to be?

At the moment, it is probably my single biggest problem. Although i have been playing with roles and duties, fluidity and having some issues with pressing, the single biggest cause of goals, or at least chances against, was a poorly executed attempt at the offside trap. Good teams were beating the trap too easily.

That said, my hands were tied with regards to the players i had available. They were not ideally suited. I have now been able to sign some replacements, and whilst still not perfect, they seem to have somewhat better key attributes. The flip side of this might be that they will not have familiarity right away, but will see how it develops.

It sounded like herne had better success with it, although I did note that he felt the fast defender was important - For me that tends to suggest that its still not right - the speed only becomes important when recovering from a failed offside attempt!

Is it something you have used (The offside trap), if so, how did you find it?

[herne79]

Apologies if this has been asked.

How effective do you find the offside trap setting to green to be?

For me, the offside trap won't work effectively without defenders with good relevant attributes. That being said, as is the case in real life, the offside trap will always have the potential to be broken. This becomes even more true as we start to play better quality opposition, as attackers become better at breaking the trap. All we can do is reduce the chances of it happening.

Pace in central defenders to help recover when they do screw up becomes, I think, less important as you employ defenders with better offside attributes. However, if you have pace as well as the good attributes, you not only reduce the chance of the offside trap failing, but also improve your chances of recovering from the inevitable mistakes.

TL;DR have pacey central defenders with good mental attributes, although to be fair they are a rare breed !

[hyrule_king]

At the moment, it is probably my single biggest problem. Although i have been playing with roles and duties, fluidity and having some issues with pressing, the single biggest cause of goals, or at least chances against, was a poorly executed attempt at the offside trap. Good teams were beating the trap too easily.

That said, my hands were tied with regards to the players i had available. They were not ideally suited. I have now been able to sign some replacements, and whilst still not perfect, they seem to have somewhat better key attributes. The flip side of this might be that they will not have familiarity right away, but will see how it develops.

It sounded like herne had better success with it, although I did note that he felt the fast defender was important - For me that tends to suggest that its still not right - the speed only becomes important when recovering from a failed offside attempt!

Is it something you have used (The offside trap), if so, how did you find it?

I have tried not too use it and just have a deeper defensive line to try and make them harder to get in behind. I am finding that my players just don't close down very well, they seem to attempt a tackle but not go through with it. Very frustrating. I am currently in 2018 with Peterborough. I am going to try and have a go at a mixture between this and fergies 442 counter formation of the mid 90's early 00's.

[Jambo98]

So i now have my tweak setup and squad ready for Season 2.

The tactic, of course, remains flat 442.

Mentality - Control

Fluidity - Structured

TI

- Much Higher Defensive Line - I might drop this to just "higher" depending on how i see it develop, but i do need to keep the principle of high line in place

- Use Offside Trap - Driving me mad, but it has to stay

- Play Narrower - Experimenting with this to give some of the compact midfield type play i saw in the videos

- Be More Disciplined - Perhaps not as necessary with the change in fluidity, but i still think it reflects Sacchi's "Team Ethos" to use this

- Work ball into box - I just find this is required to make the attacking play intricate in the way the Milan did back then

- Play out of defence - Likewise, without this i find we resort to a little to many long passes.

Role/Duty/PI/Players

GK - Sweeper Keeper (Defend) - Diego Lopez - PI: Pass it shorter, distribute to fullbacks, roll it out

Nothing complex here, same as before. Lopez is a very good keeper so no need to change.

LB - Wingback (Attack) - Alberto De la Bella - PI: Close down more

Reflecting some of what i saw on video, and feedback here, a more attacking duty for the "Maldini" role. Also a new player, who is far better defensively than Armero was. Back up is weak, in Giovanni Marchese, so hopefully De la Bella stays fit and slots in.

RB - Fullback (Support) - Mario - PI: Close down more

Remains as a more solid role. Had to sell De Sciglio to raise funds for the rebuild (£30million), Abate lacks some key stats and this guy, whilst not a world beater, ticks the required defensive boxes. Back up is Silvio on loan from Athletico, so again not that strong depthwise.

DC - Central Defender (Defend) - Gonzalo Rodriguez - PI: Close down much less

Sticking to the same role/duty, and also still attempting to stop the "mad rush out". Alex was punted, and although he is over 30, Rodriguez is still a beast. Very good Mental's, should be better at offside trap! Albertazzi remains as his backup.

DC - Central Defender (Defend) - Adil Rami - PI: Close down much less

As above, Rami keeps his place, although he has a PPM "Gets forward whenever possible" which is strange, and i would think not good for a CB! Trying to get him to unlearn it, but his time is limited. Picked up Jean-Armel Kana-Biyik on a free as backup, and although his decision making could be better, his other mentals are pretty good and he has real pace, so might step in.

ML - Wide Midfielder (Support) - Giacomo Bonaventura - PI: Close down more, Cut inside, Cross less

This role has moved back from "Attack" to "support" from last season, as i try to reflect the more balanced nature of Sacchi's tactic. In particular when Evani played here in the second final. The pressing settings are all set at PI level, to try and combat the "rushing DC" issue. I also want Bonaventura to cut inside, as he can be very good coming into the middle. Had a great season last year. Also acquired Marquinho from Roma who is an interesting rotation option. I expect creativity from this role.

MR - Winger (Attack) - Stephan El Shaarawy - PI: Close down more

Another role change from last year. Trying to reflect that there was usually one man staying wider. Again at the moment only the pressing PI, nothing else needed here. El Sharawy started off great in the "Gullit" role last year but fade, and he is not deadly enough in the box for that. He is however, a superb player and can give us real thrust from out wide. Nacer Chadli comes in as a rotation option, who can also cover the other flank if required.

MC - Deep Lying Playmaker (Defend) - Lucas Romero - PI: Close down more,

Have left this one unchanged for now as i search for the right combination in the middle. I think this does reflect fairly well the Ancelotti role when he played central. Romero is a great little player, and Andrea Poli will back him up.

MC - Box to Box midfielder (Support) - Yoann Gourcuff / Sergi Roberto - PI: Close down more, get further forward

This is the role i am most unsure about, and in many ways have been all along. I have decided to watch carefully how box to box performs in relations to Rijkaards style, possibly will add some creative PI. Would like him to get forward more than a standard support role might allow, hence that PI. I am also not overly convinced i have the right player for this. Gourcuff came in last year and is pretty good all-round, Sergi Roberto an interesting addition who might still blossom into the type of technical, classy player that i want.

ST - Deep Lying Forward (Support) - Lucas Pratto / Sebastian Giovinco - PI: Close down much more, Roam from position

Only change here is the addition of the second PI to reflect Gullits role moving around a lot from side to side. Pratto came in firstly for this role, but also because he is versatile enough to cover both ST roles if needed. Giovinco an interesting wildcard free transfer, who can be very technically tricky but i am not sure has the penalty box pressence i want.

ST - Advanced Forward (Attack) - Giampaolo Pazzini - PI: Close down much more

This guy scored 39 goals last season, smashed the Serie A top scorer award and took the European golden boot. Not bad for a guy i originally thought was past his best! Absolutely no reason to change anything about his role. Alberto Paloschi comes in as backup, a similar type if not ultimately a good but is "homegrown" to Milan.

Now to see how it all hangs together. Of course when choosing the roles and duties, its abo****ely key to think of how they work together not just the best individual roles. I like the idea on the left side - the DLP hanging back, the ML cutting in and playing combos with the DLF. I will need to watch out for the ML and DLF competing for the same space - Last year was no issue, but the ML did have "attack" duty so its one to keep an eye on.

Likewise on the right, i need to be a little careful to watch whether we are being left exposed with the attack duty winger, and the box to box guy ending up high up the pitch.

I am very much a "give it a few games and watch it develop" type, so i will run a few games and not over-react to things, unless there is a glaring and repeated issue

Sorry for the long right up, but its good to explain thought processes to help stimulate debate

[herne79]

Wow lots of changes there Jambo. Shame you had to let de Sciglio go, but 30m is hard to say no to .

Personally I'm not sure about a couple of the roles, but fully understand where you are coming from plus there has to be a compromise somewhere to get something successful through the TC and ME. How did you get on first season? (Sorry if I have missed the post).

In terms of where I am at with my version, I've now drawn a line under that iteration - I've taken it as far as I wanted to go. However, I've started on 2 separate side projects: 1) Using that same tactic but this time with Milan right from the start. I predict I will get sacked before Christmas . 2) Assuming I do get sacked, I want to work on version 2 to hopefully be less extreme but still in keeping with Sacchi's principles.

One other thought also struck me - Sacchi's Milan side were a world class team with some of the best players around at the time. Yet we're not using a world class side during tactic development. Perhaps I should also try the tactic with a different top quality team…

Oh, and don't forget Bonaventura has a PPM for Cuts Inside .

Looking forward to seeing how season 2 goes.

[hyrule_king]

Interesting that you have the Centre backs as close down less , i suppose this means they hold there position better. I am finding in my 442 that having a AP and DPas my two CM's is helping both with defensive and attacking play. The AP creates lots of chances and if they are good enough will rack up the assists to your Strikers.

[Jambo98]

The only reason for the "close down much less" is to try and stop the annoying behaviour where they charge out unnecesarily and leave a huge gap in behind. I am finding that very hard to stop in the 442 setup sadly Part of me says if i cant stop it, try and make the best of it and just ask them to close down anyway....

[Jambo98]

Wow lots of changes there Jambo. Shame you had to let de Sciglio go, but 30m is hard to say no to .

Personally I'm not sure about a couple of the roles, but fully understand where you are coming from plus there has to be a compromise somewhere to get something successful through the TC and ME. How did you get on first season? (Sorry if I have missed the post).

In terms of where I am at with my version, I've now drawn a line under that iteration - I've taken it as far as I wanted to go. However, I've started on 2 separate side projects: 1) Using that same tactic but this time with Milan right from the start. I predict I will get sacked before Christmas . 2) Assuming I do get sacked, I want to work on version 2 to hopefully be less extreme but still in keeping with Sacchi's principles.

One other thought also struck me - Sacchi's Milan side were a world class team with some of the best players around at the time. Yet we're not using a world class side during tactic development. Perhaps I should also try the tactic with a different top quality team…

Oh, and don't forget Bonaventura has a PPM for Cuts Inside .

Looking forward to seeing how season 2 goes.

My first season felt worse than it was in reality i think. We finished second, a long way behind Juve and only just getting second ahead of Roma by a point. We also lost the Copa Italia final to Fiorentina. We were woefully bad at the back, particularly in the later half of the season. We scored the most goals in the league (over 100) but also conceded over 50! Mr Sacchi would not be pleased.........

Second season thus far is pretty bad. I have so many new players that i really need to ride out the inconsistency for a month or two, but the tactic is still not good. We still have charging CB's and still have some laughable attempts at offside trap execution. The balance of the midfield doesnt feel right either.

In summary, i need a step back! I am in danger of "over tweaking".

The PPM on Bonaventura was exactly why i chose him for that role He is one of the few brightspots!

[Raniel3]

I don't have the time to read through all of it right now (being at work oops), I just wanted to say, that the corner stone of this tactic was the compression of space. This, of course, required the use of an offside trap.

However: In those times offside worked slightly different, as for there was no "passive offside". That is, every single player that found himself behind the d-line was being called offside as soon as a ball was played, even if it was played to the other wing. So the opponents had no choice but to play through the congested space.

Today, this would not work, as thanks to passive offside players can stay out of that congested zone, creating space for the other players, and will not be offside unless they actually touch the ball. I hope you understand.

So while personally I love that concept (I just love that "compression of space" bit), it is no more possible today, because your offside trap won't work that well and therefore leave too many gaps in your defence

[peleJunior]

I don't have the time to read through all of it right now (being at work oops), I just wanted to say, that the corner stone of this tactic was the compression of space. This, of course, required the use of an offside trap.

However: In those times offside worked slightly different, as for there was no "passive offside". That is, every single player that found himself behind the d-line was being called offside as soon as a ball was played, even if it was played to the other wing. So the opponents had no choice but to play through the congested space.

Today, this would not work, as thanks to passive offside players can stay out of that congested zone, creating space for the other players, and will not be offside unless they actually touch the ball. I hope you understand.

So while personally I love that concept (I just love that "compression of space" bit), it is no more possible today, because your offside trap won't work that well and therefore leave too many gaps in your defence

That's a very good point about passive offside actually. I'm not sure the game implements this too well however. I can't say I've noticed too much of it if any?

[herne79]

I don't have the time to read through all of it right now (being at work oops), I just wanted to say, that the corner stone of this tactic was the compression of space. This, of course, required the use of an offside trap.

However: In those times offside worked slightly different, as for there was no "passive offside". That is, every single player that found himself behind the d-line was being called offside as soon as a ball was played, even if it was played to the other wing. So the opponents had no choice but to play through the congested space.

Today, this would not work, as thanks to passive offside players can stay out of that congested zone, creating space for the other players, and will not be offside unless they actually touch the ball. I hope you understand.

So while personally I love that concept (I just love that "compression of space" bit), it is no more possible today, because your offside trap won't work that well and therefore leave too many gaps in your defence

Yup a good point, and one example of where certain compromises usually need to be made when trying to fit a real-life tactic into the game.

This is why the thread is called "A Sacchi-Inspired Flat 4-4-2".

[Jambo98]

I don't have the time to read through all of it right now (being at work oops), I just wanted to say, that the corner stone of this tactic was the compression of space. This, of course, required the use of an offside trap.

However: In those times offside worked slightly different, as for there was no "passive offside". That is, every single player that found himself behind the d-line was being called offside as soon as a ball was played, even if it was played to the other wing. So the opponents had no choice but to play through the congested space.

Today, this would not work, as thanks to passive offside players can stay out of that congested zone, creating space for the other players, and will not be offside unless they actually touch the ball. I hope you understand.

So while personally I love that concept (I just love that "compression of space" bit), it is no more possible today, because your offside trap won't work that well and therefore leave too many gaps in your defence

I think this is somewhat true, and i think i alluded to the rule changes since 89 in my first post (the passback rule was also different, although less dramatic).

For me thought, compression of space is key - totally agree. It is also clear that Sacchi used the offside trap to great effect. It was an area i struggled badly to get working in FM15, but not really to do with the different offside laws as such. I just found it difficult to get players to properly execute the offside trap. It is something that, in theory, to do well takes a long time of working together (think of the other famous "offside trap" defence - Arsenal with the same back 5 for about 6 years). I just couldnt get my back 4 to stop making poor decisions, or more accurately different decisions of when to execute the offside trap.

I dont think the rule change is too crucial. The reality is that when someone is "passive offside", by defenition they must not be involved in the play, so they shouldnt hurt you immediately. The issue can be "second phase" - where perhaps the you pushed up to catch a central striker offside, but the ball went wide to someone onside instead, the central striker then gets on the end of a cross and the goal is allowed because of the "second phase" of play. However i cannot say i saw this happen much, if at all.

Compression of space without an offside trap is perfectly possible - In the modern game many teams operate a high line and high press without an offside trap.

I did consider taking offside trap off and just trying to create the tactic without it, but in the end i must admit i was struggling so badly with the overall tactic that i had to somewhat abandon this project

[TIR669]

I'm a big fan of flat 4-4-2 tactics so I decided to give this a try. I didn't go for Milan but Bordeaux - a team not strong enough to win the league but good enough to challenge for it. In the end, 3rd place is solid. Media prediction was 7th. Apart from a few games where I was losing points because my strikers had a day off, such as Lens (H) 0-0, there was only one mental result - I lost to Guinguamp at home 0-6 in the Cup. Won two against PSG, but lost both league games to Lyon and Marseille. However, I don't recall a game in which I was a much worse side than the opposing team.

Attacking - Fluid with these TI:

• Shorter passing
  
• Higher tempo
  
• Play out of defence
  
• Whipped crosses
  
• Play narrower
  
• Push higher up
  
• Close down more
  
• Use offside trap
  

Player roles:

• full backs vary between FB(a) and WB(a), depending who am I up against
  
• W(a) are by far the best rated offensive players with 7.43 and 7.31 AvR
  
• I started with both defenders on CD(d) but changed one of them to CD(s) to stop them from falling out too often chasing the opposition
  

Lens & PSG games:

There weren't many high scoring games, but I was the better team in almost all games played. The main problem, apart from having three good, but no great strikers, was the defending. Not by the defenders themselves but the lack of it from players in the midfield. Looking at CM(d) role to be precise. The defensive cover I get from that role is quite poor and I feel it should be a lot better concidering I had Flamini on loan playing CM(d) and Khazri playing RPM(s). Any advice?

I will continue this save and I'm looking forward to seeing what will change if I manage to bring a couple of shortlisted players in.

[sirgiorgio]

My thoughts:

herne79: the wide midfielders definitely weren't wingers. Maybe Donadoni, in some way, definitely not Colombo and Evani. They looked like wide midfielders to me, possibly even on defend duty. I like the team instructions, especially shorter passing (which isn't particularly Sacchi-esque, but it makes sense with attacking mentality + higher tempo) and team shape fluid + be more disciplined, which kind of summarise Sacchi's point of view: "A team is like an orchestra (fluid), there's no room for soloists (more disciplined)"

Jambo98:

"Work ball into box": Don't agree, although I realise it's kind of a must with attacking mentality and very fluid team shape. A couple of years ago I re-watched Milan v Fiorentina 1-1, January 1988, and Milan players basically shot on sight. In fact, I remember I thought "Wow! It looks like Football Manager!" This was a very important part of how they play: they pushed forwards in numbers, and if they lost possession they were exposed to potentially lethal counter-attacks. If they kicked the ball away, however (or they they scored! Sometimes it happened) they had the time to return in position. As a result, they did try to play out of defense, but ironically, they seemed to be short of ideas once in the final third.

"Stay on feet": Sacchi's critics say he invented the "tactical foul", and that Ancelotti was particularly good at it I wouldn't use that instruction... for reasons explained above.

A common misconception about Sacchi is that he was an "attacking manager", while in fact he "simply" showed that you don't have to play catenaccio to be defensively solid. "Attack is the best defense", so to speak. But it was a "defense-first" approach, especially by today's standard. Another of his quotes: "The best defender is not as good as four good defenders, and four good defenders are not as good as eleven decent defenders".

In general, I'm not surprised that these Saccchi-esque tactics work so well in FM, because, as I wrote, the game seems to be modeled on Sacchi's Milan

Surprised, no; disappointed, yes. It worked 25 years ago, it shouldn't work now, IMO. Sacchi's admirers say he changed (Italian) football, and some of his innovative ideas are now the norm, but as it happens, the more ahead of the time you were, the more out-dated you become. He famously despised attacking midfielders ("numeri 10", as they call them in Italy), and so did his followers: Ancelotti, while at Parma, let Zola go and refused to sign Roberto Baggio, but later in his career he had no problems working with Zidane and Del Piero (Juventus), Rui Costa, Kaka and Pirlo (Milan) and a bunch of flamboyant midfielders at Real Madrid.

The problem with Sacchi's "collectivism" was that there was almost no room for individual initiative. In today's football, there's no orchestra without soloists.

[SeattleFan]

Jumbo and herne79 with how u guys did with this tactic how would u guys go about setting up a set pieces and the instructions

[herne79]

If you are asking about the Set Piece Creator tool, I never use it - never have done and wouldn't even know where to start .

However, I set every save up in the same manner:

1) Make sure the players I want to be taking Long Throws, Free Kicks, Corners and Penalties are properly set ("Set Pieces" tab at the top of the Tactics screen).

2) I set each individual player's "Set Piece Instructions" which you find at the bottom of the screen when you hit the "Player" tab on the Tactics screen. Basically, I make sure I at least set:

- 3 players in the wall for Defensive Free Kicks

- Both fullbacks mark a post each when Defending Corners

- Always set someone to "Stay Forward" for defensive free kicks and corners (usually a pacey striker or winger), with a creative player on the Edge of Area

- If my striker is good in the air, I'll have him Attack Near Post for attacking corners - if he isn't, then one of my central defenders

- Always set one of my fullbacks to Stay Back for attacking corners and free kicks; the other fullback is set to Stay Back if Needed

- If I have a strong midfielder, I'll have him disrupt the wall during attacking free kicks

- Have my central defenders Challenge Keeper (or Attack Near Post - see above) and Attack Far Post for attacking corners

- Have someone with either good creativity and/or good Long Shot to Lurk Outside Area for attacking corners

- All defenders are set to Man Mark during defensive free kicks, and Central Defenders set to Mark Tall Player when defending corners

- Everyone else instructed to Go Back for defending corners and free kicks

Note - I know it is recommended by several people here (including Jambo if I recall) to have 3 or so players zonally mark the 6 yard box when defending corners. I've never done this and haven't seen any issues with not doing so.

Hope that helps.