4-4-1-1: The Setup

[Shakes]

I've had a lot of success with a AFa and a APs in behind, however I don't play a flat 4-4-1-1, I offset my AMC to the right, with a BBM on the left of midfield and the third midfielder dropped back to DM. This gives the AP heaps of space to drop back into, which suits me fine as my striker is a better player than he is, so I'm happy to use him to draw defenders away from my main man. Also seems to help out defensively, with the gap in behind him he'll feel like he needs to drop back in line more than an AMC usually will.

My main striker is somewhat in the target man mould though rather than your conventional poacher type you often see used as an AF - he's tall and strong and can leap small buildings, gets on a lot of crosses from my wingers (another reason to have the AM acting as more of a decoy and drawing players out of the box). He's not some complete plodder though, so the advanced forward role gives him freedom that setting him up as a target man wouldn't.

Disclaimer: Haven't tried it with the new patch yet, hopefully the toning down of crosses hasn't been a complete nerfing into the ground.

[Rashidi]

I've covered how I use my 4411 formation on my blog, but I will outline some key points here on how I've made it easily my most successful formation. The key thing to bear in mind is that you need to get the right partnership working for the two central MCs, I prefer using an AMC behind a DLF combination as well upfront behind my DLP(S)DLP(D) or CM(D)/DLP(S) midfield because the sheer variety of goal scoring chances made make this probably imho the best formation in the game atm

[James9]

I've covered how I use my 4411 formation on my blog, but I will outline some key points here on how I've made it easily my most successful formation. The key thing to bear in mind is that you need to get the right partnership working for the two central MCs, I prefer using an AMC behind a DLF combination as well upfront behind my DLP(S)DLP(D) or CM(D)/DLP(S) midfield because the sheer variety of goal scoring chances made make this probably imho the best formation in the game atm[/quote

Could you direct me to your blog so i can get a better understanding of how you use the 4411 formation. Do you a link to your blog available

[Cleon]

I've covered how I use my 4411 formation on my blog, but I will outline some key points here on how I've made it easily my most successful formation. The key thing to bear in mind is that you need to get the right partnership working for the two central MCs, I prefer using an AMC behind a DLF combination as well upfront behind my DLP(S)DLP(D) or CM(D)/DLP(S) midfield because the sheer variety of goal scoring chances made make this probably imho the best formation in the game atm[/quote

Could you direct me to your blog so i can get a better understanding of how you use the 4411 formation. Do you a link to your blog available

It's under his name...plus in the thread at the top of the forum

[Sussex Hammer]

I'm loving it at the moment with my classic 4-4-1-1 as it plays so much better since the patch got rid of long shots willy nilly. I'm having some lovely interplay between my midfielders and my AM arrives late in the box really well. Tried an experiment pushing my ML and MR forward to make a 4-2-3-1 but it just doesn't work. Think tracking back on the AMR and AML in that formation really need work. With the 4-4-1-1 though it plays really well and mine is just a simple classic tactic with most sliders for most players on mixed. All I have adjusted is individual mentalities and closing down and creative freedom. I also noticed that by reducing CF my team plays a lot better. I had my AM on "much" but he is a far better player on the last notch of normal. When well ahead I go to a deeper 4-2-3-1 to tighten up and with a 5-1 win at Anfield and a 4-0 at Goodison Park I am loving it!!!

[Anaconda Vice]

Sussex, would you mind uploading the tactic. I am interested in using a 4-4-1-1 with my Celtic Team. Would be greatly appreciated.

[GaryMegsonJr]

I'm loving it at the moment with my classic 4-4-1-1 as it plays so much better since the patch got rid of long shots willy nilly. I'm having some lovely interplay between my midfielders and my AM arrives late in the box really well. Tried an experiment pushing my ML and MR forward to make a 4-2-3-1 but it just doesn't work. Think tracking back on the AMR and AML in that formation really need work. With the 4-4-1-1 though it plays really well and mine is just a simple classic tactic with most sliders for most players on mixed. All I have adjusted is individual mentalities and closing down and creative freedom. I also noticed that by reducing CF my team plays a lot better. I had my AM on "much" but he is a far better player on the last notch of normal. When well ahead I go to a deeper 4-2-3-1 to tighten up and with a 5-1 win at Anfield and a 4-0 at Goodison Park I am loving it!!!

I've started to see my Vale team play some better stuff aswell, last season the football was often quite dire. However, this season there has been major improvements in terms of quality of football. Don't get me wrong, we're not tearing up League One (currently 9th, 20 games in) but when we win now we do it with extra bit of class and quality. Its quite exciting seeing a team progress like this since I've adopted a new approach for FM13 - I certainly feel much more of an actual Football Manager.

Regarding the AM/ST relationship, things seem to be working at the moment with very little alteration on player instructions but I'm intigued about what you say about creative freedom and mentality etc. but I don't feel I understand why I would change and its effect. If it ain't broke don't fix it, I guess. Do you notice little problems in game or on the analysis tab? Or do you just trial & error based on logic and your understanding of the tactic?

I'm currently using the two approaches that furiousuk eluded earlier in post:

- An AFa who stays high and moves into channels with an APs who stays in the hole and creates centrally.

- A DLFs who pulls defenders deep or wide with MiC and an AMa attacks the space created and stays central.

It's working a treat but I'm keen to improve it further, so I think might implement some of your ideas.

P.S. I've ticked the target man box on PI and set my ST as it with the supply 'Run onto Ball', seems to be working quite well, even with the dodgy through balls that happen on ME.

[Sussex Hammer]

Sussex, would you mind uploading the tactic. I am interested in using a 4-4-1-1 with my Celtic Team. Would be greatly appreciated.

4411

http://www.mediafire.com/?9n1oev4d9298fkk

4231

http://www.mediafire.com/?b87bka9knyread9

They are very basic classic tactics but seem to be working for me at the moment although I am 4 seasons in and have got better players, although I still use Tomkins, Noble, Collison, Nolan and Carroll regularly..... I just adjust width, tempo, defensive line if needed in matches. I have actually found that counter attack goes against me quite a lot so now don't use it, preferring to keep things a bit tighter away. But I played my 4-4-1-1 away at Barcelona and lost 2-1 losing on a free kick and a penalty so it's ok.

I do tinker quite a lot but that was mainly the mentality, creative freedom and closing down settings and at the moment seem to have found the balance although it's obviously far from perfect. Playing with sliders over the TC?? Some, sorry most, would say I am mad but that's just me, I prefer it. I generally have just looked at analysis heat maps etc and adjusted. I am also a great believer in "mixed" settings for most players bar Centre Backs and keeper. Perfect example was my deeper CM Mark Noble. I wanted him playing balls through and not running with it so I changed his forward runs to rare. Suddenly he was getting caught in possession a lot so I changed back to mixed and he wasn't getting caught. I just don't see unless you have a player who is absolutely masterful in one area why you would have anyone on often or rare for most things. IMO you reduce his options dramatically. I have Carroll or Ibrahimovich up top and both are good in the air so some would say get your wingers firing in crosses all day long. I tried it and the amount of crosses that ended up as red dots was staggering. It's not necessarily down to your wingers. Maybe my strikers weren't making the right runs or whatever so I now leave crosses on mixed and now my wingers may cut in and score themselves.

The one thing I would love to get right is getting my AM beyond the striker to get on flick ons but with FM's options that is very difficult. Often forward runs aren't an option because again I don't want him doing that all the time and a higher mentality again defeats the main objective which is to let him roam in that hole. PPM's may be worth more of a look.

I am a lazy player though. I like to sign players, let my Assistant do most of the work and just play matches. Can't be bothered with constant role changes and micro management. Again I am a great believer in let the opposition worry about my team rather than me worry about them. That's my one main gripe with the game. Too much tactic advice is now based on "you" having to make changes and keep an eye on what the AI is doing but what about letting the AI worry about what you are doing? Football is a two way street.

*****One thing I must add is the HUB setting on my striker on the tactic. Play around with this because I use Ibrahimovic and Carroll so may not be useful for every striker.

[cerud]

Very good thread! I'm working on trying to better understand how tactical play works, how ball movement creates opportunities, etc. Your explanation on the left side of your pitch with an attacking left back who can run an overlap with a left winger who cuts insides makes absolute sense. You write in a way that even I can understand!

[James9]

I've covered how I use my 4411 formation on my blog, but I will outline some key points here on how I've made it easily my most successful formation. The key thing to bear in mind is that you need to get the right partnership working for the two central MCs, I prefer using an AMC behind a DLF combination as well upfront behind my DLP(S)DLP(D) or CM(D)/DLP(S) midfield because the sheer variety of goal scoring chances made make this probably imho the best formation in the game atm

Rashidi does the 451have the same issues down the wing has the 4231. I wanted to try the 451 with DMC - deep lying playmaker defend but after reading your post I am not sure because the 451 has wingers very high up the pitch. I was thinking maybe the DMC would help with covering the wings if we get caught on the counter but again i am not sure if this would work.

[Sussex Hammer]

One think I will ask though is how do you guys get a solo striker to win more headers in the box? Of course with my big forwards I want them holding up the ball and bringing others into play so to have say an option of "often forward runs" on seems counter productive. So basically I want him to get in the box more but yet don't want him constantly running away from build up play. I have looked at the crossing heat map and a lot of my crosses end up very central around the penalty spot. That's where I want my striker. Any ideas?

[Cleon]

One think I will ask though is how do you guys get a solo striker to win more headers in the box? Of course with my big forwards I want them holding up the ball and bringing others into play so to have say an option of "often forward runs" on seems counter productive. So basically I want him to get in the box more but yet don't want him constantly running away from build up play. I have looked at the crossing heat map and a lot of my crosses end up very central around the penalty spot. That's where I want my striker. Any ideas?

If your striker is intelligent enough and has a high OTB attribute then mixed forward runs is the way to go. He wouldn't be running away from build up play he'd be trying to get involved with it and should attack those kind of areas that you want to see.

[Sussex Hammer]

If your striker is intelligent enough and has a high OTB attribute then mixed forward runs is the way to go. He wouldn't be running away from build up play he'd be trying to get involved with it and should attack those kind of areas that you want to see.

Yep got him on mixed as thought that was the way forward. Also have him on normal wide play. I'm surprised on the TC that a solo striker is down to "move into channels" quite a lot. I assume if you want him in the box "normal" wide play is the way to go. Have crosses on mixed as well as can't see the point in trying to aim at a particular area especially with crossers about the 15 - 16 mark stat unless you think a certain area is better? Nolan actually gets good headers in the box even as a midfielder but his off the ball ratings are quite high.

This is one area I think PPM's could really be improved. I would love to be able to tell a striker which area or post to attack to anticipate crosses in an attacking phase. As it is say you cross near post you can't ask a striker to attack that area.

[NotPotter]

I have started using a DLFa and APa combination for my FC/AMC.

My thought behind this was that my main FC has the 'comes deep to get ball' PPM and so when on a support role I found him coming way too deep (sometimes sitting with the MCs) and so was very ineffective in attack because he then didn't have the pace to get into a position to be involved in the final stages of the attack.

Looking at the instructions behind the role, the DLFa is a combination of the parts of the AFa & DLFs roles that suit what I want from my forward. Giving my FC the freedom to hold up the ball like a DLFs if needed but not so deep that he essentially isolates himself from the rest of the attack. I have noticed that my forward has been a lot more threatening in front of goal (both pre and post patch 13.2.2) as well as being more effectual from his involvement in build up play, namely from one-twos played with either the APa or some of the wingers. Despite my other strikers not having similar stats/PPMs from my main forward they seem to perform considerably better when selected with this role.

I suppose logically I should really use an APs at AMC but I found a similar problem that I had with using the DLFs (despite not having a similar PPM) with him adopting an average position level with the MCs (according to the heat maps). This in-turn left my forward very isolated so my setting both of them to attacking they are both much more effective in positions that can hurt the opposition.

Like many others, I have found that the rest of the formation gives a great platform to build on with the AMC/FC relationship being the final part of the jigsaw.

Has anyone else tried and had any success using a DLFa & APa?

[Anaconda Vice]

Thanks Sussex Hammer, the tactics working well for me at the moment with Celtic. Lacina Traore is playing well up front for me and McGugan at AMC seems to be doing a good job too. Wingers having been setting up goals and shots for Traore with his head which I am pleased with, though they should be finding him as he is 203 cm tall haha. I have Carroll, however I have never been able to get him to score enough goals and it doesn't seem to be working for him in this tactic for me but like I said it is making everyone else play well so it is obviously him playing bad.

[Rashidi]

Rashidi does the 451have the same issues down the wing has the 4231. I wanted to try the 451 with DMC - deep lying playmaker defend but after reading your post I am not sure because the 451 has wingers very high up the pitch. I was thinking maybe the DMC would help with covering the wings if we get caught on the counter but again i am not sure if this would work.

The fundamental issue with the 4231 is how it plays, in order for you to play the formation well, you need the 2 MCs to provide a lot of security, and most of the times I've play it successfully I've had to play with a high line, which requires a lot of technically good players. The 451 whether flat or like the 433 offers a lot more security in midfield with the 3 midfielders. As long as you have good covering MCs u shouldn't have much of an issue and you should be able to use one fullback as an explosive outlet. Furthermore the 451 allows you to play balanced or control, and that for some people I reckon its a bit more reassuring.

A lot of what you can do depends on who you have. Personally I prefer formations where I can play with flat midfields, the reason being that I have good wingers who can exploit space. Playin with a flat midfield allows me to cover my flanks really well and then run at defenses, and this is especially more deadly if i am on the counter.

[Outliar]

I find goalscoring really tough with my Sunderland team, I find that putting one CM into attack helps but it leaves more space in behind for the opponent to counter. Its difficult to achieve this balance of being more efficient goalscoring wise and keeping it tighter at the back. Against weaker teams I play Vaughan as CM(A) and Colback as DLP(D) and I still find it tough achieving this balance

[Rashidi]

In my 4411 i have one cm on defend and another dlp on support, I find that getting them to get the right combination of ppms is usually enough to create a lot of chances, against tougher teams i go for a double dlp combo, one on defend another on support.

[Outliar]

In my 4411 i have one cm on defend and another dlp on support, I find that getting them to get the right combination of ppms is usually enough to create a lot of chances, against tougher teams i go for a double dlp combo, one on defend another on support.

That's the problem, my two MC's don't have pkm's to do what I want them to do. Instead Im having to increase forward runs for the DLP or put him on CM(A). I guess Im going to struggle until they learn the pkm's required to play in the engine room of midfield

[Sussex Hammer]

Thanks Sussex Hammer, the tactics working well for me at the moment with Celtic. Lacina Traore is playing well up front for me and McGugan at AMC seems to be doing a good job too. Wingers having been setting up goals and shots for Traore with his head which I am pleased with, though they should be finding him as he is 203 cm tall haha. I have Carroll, however I have never been able to get him to score enough goals and it doesn't seem to be working for him in this tactic for me but like I said it is making everyone else play well so it is obviously him playing bad.

Carroll is a funny one. Earlier patches he was getting 15-20 goals a season but gets less each patch!!! Mind you I use Ibrahomovic now rather than Carroll. Couple of other tips. If you downloaded the 4-3-2-1 and it seems you are not getting too many chances try ticking the counter attack box. I start without it just to see how the game goes but it is very much a contain tactic for me. Also with the 4-4-1-1 if you need a goal I just wallop the AMC up front to make a 4-4-2 and go more attacking and more direct. Was 1-0 down in the Cup away at Man United and did this in the last 10 minutes and won 2-1...

[Cleon]

Carroll is a funny one. Earlier patches he was getting 15-20 goals a season but gets less each patch!!! Mind you I use Ibrahomovic now rather than Carroll. Couple of other tips. If you downloaded the 4-3-2-1 and it seems you are not getting too many chances try ticking the counter attack box. I start without it just to see how the game goes but it is very much a contain tactic for me. Also with the 4-4-1-1 if you need a goal I just wallop the AMC up front to make a 4-4-2 and go more attacking and more direct. Was 1-0 down in the Cup away at Man United and did this in the last 10 minutes and won 2-1...

I know this is off topic but Carroll is great for me as a DLF support in my 352, Scores quite a few goals and sets up some creat scoring chances.

He didn't score in his first 6 either because I was messing around trying to find his best position with-in the system I'd created. All on the latest patch too.

[Sussex Hammer]

Once the transfer update is out I'll restart the game and see how Carroll goes although I'm retiring Ibrahimovic at the end of this season so I may try and use Carroll again. Possibly he is just one dimensional as a lone forward (As Allardyce is finding out IRL!!!). He holds it up quite well and I win games with him playing so it's not all bad and he does have a great shot on him. It's just a case of getting regular crosses to him and that's not easy. Mind you I don't expect it to be, it's not often In a real life game you make perfect chances through crosses.

[GaryMegsonJr]

Very good thread! I'm working on trying to better understand how tactical play works, how ball movement creates opportunities, etc. Your explanation on the left side of your pitch with an attacking left back who can run an overlap with a left winger who cuts insides makes absolute sense. You write in a way that even I can understand!

Cheers! I hope this can help it whatever tactic you are creating, a lot of FM13 is just common sense its just a case of figuring it out, certainly nowhere near understanding the tactical play myself.

Btw, for anyone interested, I have altered my formation since the original post, I've been using a WMa at ML (still cuts in) due to personnel, seems to be working and this decision kinda vindicated by reading rashdi's excellent blog on the 4-4-1-1. Also varying my AM/ST combo with an AFa/APs and a DLFs/AMa, two totally different options but both working brilliantly, it's gone a long way to improving the weakest part of my team so thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread.

Oh and one more change, not implemented yet, but after rashidi's blog I'm thinking of swapping the position of my two MC's so my DLPd can cover the Wa (he is the more direct and attacking out of my wingers)

(I'm also still none the wiser on how to post screenshots (if they are wanteed/needed), so if anyone could point me in the right direction that would be appreciated. It may be something to do with my posting permissions, I have no idea!)

[Sunwell2]

Where do you find the blog at?

[Mr Bulgaria]

Where do you find the blog at?

http://fmrashidi.wordpress.com/

Enjoy

[fdawsoniv]

I've glanced through this thread, but while there's a lot of discussion on how to get this formation to work, I didn't notice anything about where it's weak. What have you found gives your 4-4-1-1 the most trouble? If I wanted to break down another team's 4-4-1-1, where do I attack?

[GaryMegsonJr]

I've glanced through this thread, but while there's a lot of discussion on how to get this formation to work, I didn't notice anything about where it's weak. What have you found gives your 4-4-1-1 the most trouble? If I wanted to break down another team's 4-4-1-1, where do I attack?

I wouldn't say its particularly weak in any area but like I've already mentioned a few times, the AM/ST relationship takes a bit of work to get them playing together in tandem. I do tend to concede more from the middle than the wings, probably due to the lack of a player in the DM strata, but when facing an AM I tell my MC with the defend duty (my DLPd) to man mark their AM, which usually helps.

Regarding combatting another team's 4-4-1-1, I'd generally focus play through the middle possibly? As there would be no direct opponent to our AM allowing him to operate between the lines, I sometimes try an dake advantage of this by setting him as 'Playmaker' on the Team Instructions so as to focus our passing through him.

[Mr Bulgaria]

The one area that looks weak in my 4-4-1-1 is the lone striker. I'm playing as Wolves so have Doyle who can play the dlf role well, but the majority of goals seem to come from my two wide midfielders though. To be fair though in real life that is how Doyle is playing this season o_O

[Cleon]

I've glanced through this thread, but while there's a lot of discussion on how to get this formation to work, I didn't notice anything about where it's weak. What have you found gives your 4-4-1-1 the most trouble? If I wanted to break down another team's 4-4-1-1, where do I attack?

The AMC is vital to 4411 so if you take him out of the game they miss a vital part of the formation and why it works so well. How you do this can vary, either ask one of your MC's to man mark him or move one of them back to the DMC position.

[GaryMegsonJr]

Well, I'm seeing if after 3 weeks I might have figured out how to post a screenshot so here goes...

The Tactic

If this hasn't worked or is too small, i'll re-do it

(It seems you have to click the link, I don't if anyone is bothered by this or how to change it so it just appears like most other people's screenshots but its worked, so... hurrah!)

Finally, there are few alterations in my tactic from the original post as you can see, just playing around with some ideas, nothing concrete though.

[Rashidi]

Interesting that you use a WM and a Winger on the flanks, and two players in the middle that make forward runs.

This is is how I read the flow of the tactic, you have a fullback who is meant to make explosive runs from the left, but you also have a wide midfielder who has been told to attack, with the right ppms you could see:

the WM make inside runs allowing the fullback to exploit the left flank, if that is not happening its down to the ppms and attributes purely.

On the right flank you have opted for a winger, and have wisely opted to have a fullback on support, this should see more runs down the flank, with the fullback occasionally drifting up, and so you have opted to stick your more defensive minded MC on the right. This could be your achilles heal. I expect your left flank to be more porous than your right flank, and the only adjustment you may need to make if you find yourself being overrun is swapping roles of the MCs. I do wonder if your overtly attacking front two could afford to see one drop a bit deeper, though you could get that going with ppms for the forward..stuff like drop deep, play with back to goal are ppms I would be doing if it was my formation. \

Its certainly a lot different from my 4411, and interesting since it shows that different roles in 4411s can still result in good performances.

Currently my formation which plays with a deep forward requires the forward to have good games..he's not very consistent, so a lot of my goals come from assists and deep runs by my fullbacks, surging in to lay off good passes for others.. I like the variety I get from my formation, and my video collection of goals is increasing ;-)

[GaryMegsonJr]

Cheers for the detailed response, I've been trying to implement a few things you outlined on your blog.

Like you said, the WM making inside runs and DL overlapping is what I'm trying to create. Currently training the WM to cut inside on his pppm's so it comes naturally to him, so i dont have to modify 'wide play' like I currently am on the player instructions. Looking at the assist locations on my team report my left is more porous than my right, but it is through the middle where we concede the most goals by far.

Regarding the two MC's, I know you usually favour a CM/DLPd and DLPs after reading your blog, but would your two MC's have a more attacking mentality because of your attacking stratgey. I thought maybe my more offensive CM roles may be offset by may counter strategy or is that complete nonsense? I do also sometimes use a DLFs and AMa front two to mix up my attack. Tbh this tactic does need a lot more work and I'm going to look more into ppm's. When playing the APMs (usually Lawrence) with a AF he gets a lot of assists but when playing an AMa (usually Hoskins) with a DLF my AM gets a lot of goals. I like the variation here. Along with Lawrence, my most assists comes from the attacking DL, it's all about risk and reward for me.

It's not amazing results either, we're 12th in L1 as shown in the screenshot but I'm quite happy with steady progress. But I'll certainly bear in mind role changes to my midfield duo, we do look a bit too open at times from watching matches and analysing heatmaps etc.

[Babak G]

Does playing a WM effectively mean they tuck in more and allow the opportunity for you to have an attacking FB/WB overlap?

[Hazza22299]

Bow taken! It's my first time posting a thread so I'm glad at least a few people like it. I'll try and get some screenshots on, if I figure out how!

Upload them to imageshack.us and the copy and past the forum code.

[Sleepydude]

Cheers for the detailed response, I've been trying to implement a few things you outlined on your blog.

Like you said, the WM making inside runs and DL overlapping is what I'm trying to create. Currently training the WM to cut inside on his pppm's so it comes naturally to him, so i dont have to modify 'wide play' like I currently am on the player instructions. Looking at the assist locations on my team report my left is more porous than my right, but it is through the middle where we concede the most goals by far.

Regarding the two MC's, I know you usually favour a CM/DLPd and DLPs after reading your blog, but would your two MC's have a more attacking mentality because of your attacking stratgey. I thought maybe my more offensive CM roles may be offset by may counter strategy or is that complete nonsense? I do also sometimes use a DLFs and AMa front two to mix up my attack. Tbh this tactic does need a lot more work and I'm going to look more into ppm's. When playing the APMs (usually Lawrence) with a AF he gets a lot of assists but when playing an AMa (usually Hoskins) with a DLF my AM gets a lot of goals. I like the variation here. Along with Lawrence, my most assists comes from the attacking DL, it's all about risk and reward for me.

It's not amazing results either, we're 12th in L1 as shown in the screenshot but I'm quite happy with steady progress. But I'll certainly bear in mind role changes to my midfield duo, we do look a bit too open at times from watching matches and analysing heatmaps etc.

Regarding your CMs, it's not just mentality, but also forward runs that define how vulnerable you might be through the middle. If they have forward runs mixed or often and they get caught in possession high up the pitch your middle will be open to a counter attack.

When I use a formation without a DM, I prefer having at least one (preferably two) CM with run from deep set to rarely, so they can screen the middle and recycle possession.

[GaryMegsonJr]

Regarding your CMs, it's not just mentality, but also forward runs that define how vulnerable you might be through the middle. If they have forward runs mixed or often and they get caught in possession high up the pitch your middle will be open to a counter attack.

When I use a formation without a DM, I prefer having at least one (preferably two) CM with run from deep set to rarely, so they can screen the middle and recycle possession.

I've just looked and my BWMs is set to forward runs mixed and the DLPd is on rarely. I think I might go with what you said switching the BWM to rarely aswell, considering my BWM doesn't have good dribbling etc. I think I'd prefer to just win it back and lay it off to a teammate. Cheers.

[Sussex Hammer]

I've just looked and my BWMs is set to forward runs mixed and the DLPd is on rarely. I think I might go with what you said switching the BWM to rarely aswell, considering my BWM doesn't have good dribbling etc. I think I'd prefer to just win it back and lay it off to a teammate. Cheers.

I was thinking of doing this as well with my classic 4411. It's the one area defensively that could be better. I think part of it is an ME issue though as I notice a delay at times in a CM's engagement of an opposition player. They seem to jog back rather than chase then at times they produce a short burst of speed which suddenly gets them goal side. It's a very odd passage of play to view so I may go with RFD rare on both and see if that makes a difference. I did try moving my more defensive minded CM to the DM position but I find that makes them play to much in a straight line down the middle. If I try the DM covering the left slot and the CM in the right slot it just doesn't play well. The one thing that FM has lacked at times is decent tracking back.

[Rashidi]

Regarding the two MC's, I know you usually favour a CM/DLPd and DLPs after reading your blog, but would your two MC's have a more attacking mentality because of your attacking stratgey. I thought maybe my more offensive CM roles may be offset by may counter strategy or is that complete nonsense? I do also sometimes use a DLFs and AMa front two to mix up my attack. Tbh this tactic does need a lot more work and I'm going to look more into ppm's. When playing the APMs (usually Lawrence) with a AF he gets a lot of assists but when playing an AMa (usually Hoskins) with a DLF my AM gets a lot of goals. I like the variation here. Along with Lawrence, my most assists comes from the attacking DL, it's all about risk and reward for me.

It's not amazing results either, we're 12th in L1 as shown in the screenshot but I'm quite happy with steady progress. But I'll certainly bear in mind role changes to my midfield duo, we do look a bit too open at times from watching matches and analysing heatmaps etc.

I generally either play attacking or control( Drop Deep)/Standard. Now I don't really adjust my two midfield combo much except when I am playing a tougher game, thats when I switch to a DLP/DLP combo, only because they generally don't venture up nearly as much as a CM/DLP combo. I don't really like using BWMs because of their larger area of influence which leads areas of the pitch to be short of men.

My team plays on a very fluid setup, I know there are loads of people who suggest that since there are X number of "specialists" you should go rigid etc...I don't really care. I don't even think the match engine is coded to say you must play rigid if you have more than X specialists. And I am not going to go into any debates over philosophy to prove my point.

If you are using a counter strategy and your mentality regime is off the TC for those roles, I doubt you will see a major change. The only thing that can affect that more is ppms. Personally I just prefer going more attacking by turning off the support or attacking runs, or by cutting through the middle or attacking down the sides.

[Rashidi]

The 4411 is an amazing system if set up right with the right players..it also can fail miserably if the 2 MCs in the middle are average.

[Outliar]

What do you say when my opponents AMC get in between the lines of my midfield and defence far too easily?

[Rashidi]

What do you say when my opponents AMC get in between the lines of my midfield and defence far too easily?

Are both your defenders on DC? set one on cover and one on defend. Another thing thats causing it is a lack of concentration from your players. Players with low concentration will frequently get pulled apart.

[Babak G]

Does playing a WM effectively mean they tuck in more and allow the opportunity for you to have an attacking FB/WB overlap?

rashidi1, could you look at this question? Also I'm wondering if playing a DW (A) as opposed to a W (S/A) is the main fundamental difference the fact that the DW will close up very high on the pitch?

[Rashidi]

rashidi1, could you look at this question? Also I'm wondering if playing a DW (A) as opposed to a W (S/A) is the main fundamental difference the fact that the DW will close up very high on the pitch?

Yes to both, a wide midfielder is supposed to defend/attack, whilst a winger looks at attack as a priority first. In fact a defensive winger closes down higher up on the pitch. Just set up one of your players as a Winger then change him to WM and then change it to Defensive WM and look at tackling and closing down.

[Babak G]

So ideally for an attacking full back or a WB on attack you'd set him up with a DW (S) or WM (S) on his side?

[Rashidi]

Yes as long as midfielders are on support the fullback should overlap provided he's been set to attack. Even if he is on support he will overlap but less so and when you are camped in opponents half trying to pick their goal. I think I should upload a video of my overlapping fb scoring goals.

[Babak G]

That would be excellent to see.

So if I put the DW or WM on (A), it will kind of limit my overlapping FBs from doing what they can do?

[MeesterCat]

The 4411 is an amazing system if set up right with the right players..it also can fail miserably if the 2 MCs in the middle are average.

I may be finding out this first hand!

I'm trying the CM-D / DLP-S system you use in your blogs, but I'm finding that the two CMs aren't quite sitting deep enough and the opposing forwards are having a field day between my lines. I've always liked to have a DMC, so finding a way around this will be the main challenge for me. I also like the idea of a Defender/Cover combination - I'd broken my habit of a Stopper/Cover pair but hadn't considered just using the Cover alongside a 'regular' defender.

[fdawsoniv]

Thanks guys. I have a DM who should be able to take out their AM. He's a cut above the general standard of the league.

[Rashidi]

I may be finding out this first hand!

I'm trying the CM-D / DLP-S system you use in your blogs, but I'm finding that the two CMs aren't quite sitting deep enough and the opposing forwards are having a field day between my lines. I've always liked to have a DMC, so finding a way around this will be the main challenge for me. I also like the idea of a Defender/Cover combination - I'd broken my habit of a Stopper/Cover pair but hadn't considered just using the Cover alongside a 'regular' defender.

hmm attributes like concentration and positioning are impt, and make sure that, and this will turn a lot of people off, is set their tackling to hard and MONITOR it during the game. If they pick up yellows too easily then train them not to dive into tackles and also make sure you bring it down a notch if they get carded. I don't seem to have an issue with the lines cos my covering defender always steps up, his anticipation is world class and his positioning is good as well. When my space gets exploited its almost always down to poor attributes. Another thing is my training, I always like to train my players to be multi role players so they are also trained as DMs..I am not sure if that plays such a big role but at times it helps if i need to switch to a 41221, but last season i stuck to a 4411.

[MeesterCat]

Cheers rashidi. I'll take a look at this when I'm next in game. I'm Crewe so my players stats aren't going to be at a world class level, but I picked Crewe with the aim of developing youth so it's something I can certainly bear in mind when training them.