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Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '07


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Originally posted by Cleon:

On FM07, a lone striker works excellently. In fact id go as far as saying its the best method of attack I have used so far, especially if you got good pacy AMC's who can play off him. The lone striker creates a helluva lot of space at times.

What I find stupid is that when two centre-backs defend against one striker, they just let that striker stand exactly in between them, eventhough tight marking is on.. Too much space for the striker.

I play with three central strikers, all three in space when playing a back four icon_biggrin.gif

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Originally posted by Benoit2:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

On FM07, a lone striker works excellently. In fact id go as far as saying its the best method of attack I have used so far, especially if you got good pacy AMC's who can play off him. The lone striker creates a helluva lot of space at times.

What I find stupid is that when two centre-backs defend against one striker, they just let that striker stand exactly in between them, eventhough tight marking is on.. Too much space for the striker.

I play with three central strikers, all three in space when playing a back four icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i always played with a lone ST in 06 and am developing it for 07. the lone ST needed to be good in the air and quick as my passing was direct. i always got plenty of chances in a game with the ST as mixed target man. flick-ons for the AMR or AML, who have dfarrows to make a front 3 are very effective.

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Having a target man is massively important - I've lost Crouch at the beginning of the 2nd season and am struggling (albeit that some of that is caused by the re-ranking).

I play 3 up front with the 2 wider forwards darrowed to AML/R - Kuyt is doing an admirable job in Crouch's absence, but there are no goals from aerial attacks (unsurprisingly) and we seem to really struggle to create clear-cut chances.

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Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mikiz:

wwfan, just some questions

if you have been winning the league 2 years in a row, what would you suggest to do with the tactic in the third year? would the other team be parking a bus in front of goal everytime they play me?

should i opt to more attacking or defending mentality, is what i'm trying to say actually icon_biggrin.gif

thanks.

If you have won it 2 years in a row, then I wouldn't change much in all honesty. If its not broke why fix it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get what you mean, but again, comparing those two seasons, my goal tally has gone down and i conceded more, meaning the re-ranking is working .

I was just wondering whether i should opt to attacking more or defensive, as in 3rd season re-ranking, others would definitely see me as the "chelsea"... if you know what i mean...

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OK, ran some "tests" on the Offside Trap-setting with my second division Swedish team in 2009 against Enköping. The odds were stacked in favor of the guests (7-4, 11-5, 5-4), but they didn't play as offensively as I'd hoped. I didn't use a RoT-system, but a 4231 5x5. I also maxed morale & fitness for both teams in FMM (perhaps I shouldn't have done that? I wanted to make morale and fitness a non-factor). Team talks were handled by Assistant, and didn't use any Opposition Instructions.

When the opposition switched to 3-3-2-1-1, the counter-measure I decided to use in every test was to slow the tempo and widen the formation. I also substituted the same two players in every game (a FC and a MR), at the latest at the 82nd minute mark (though earlier if there were any injuries).

Test #1

No Offside Trap, Normal D-line (10), High CD.

(Some) match stats:

Gunnilse 2 - 1 Enköping

Shots 7 (5 on target) - 11 (2)

Possession 43 - 57

Offsides 4 - 5

Cross Completion 28 - 28

A decent performance from the team. Keeper was named man of the match, and 3-3-2-1-1 was worryingly effective offensively against my team (it always is, since the goddamn DMC:s refuse to man-mark and close down on the AMC & the FC (well, I didn't explicitly tell them, but I would've presumed that their CD (15 & 9) would have told them as much).

Test #2

Offside Trap, Normal D-line, High CD (i.e. only change to formation is the Trap)

Gunnilse 1 - 1 Enköping

Shots 4 (3) - 9 (4)

Possession 39 - 61

Offsides 3 - 2

Cross Completion 100 - 54

Woah. My defense actually made fewer offside traps with the option ticked on, and committed more fouls. What gives? 3-3-2-1-1 was worryingly effective offensively. The possession stats were truly abysmal, and the number of crosses must've been very low (no other way to explain 100%). Opposition defender named MoM, though.

Test #3

No Offside Trap, Low D-line (6), High CD

Gunnilse 1 - 0 Enköping

Shots 7 (2) - 5 (2)

Possession 47 - 53

Offsides 2 - 1

Cross Completion 0 - 11

Opposition actually switched to 3-3-2-1-1 after they'd injured my best player and stayed in the formation the entire game. Crossing stats were quite... poor.

Test #4

with Offside Trap, Low D-line, High CD... hm... the combination doesn't make much sense, although Opp did switch to 3-3-2-1-1 after the first half. They also scored during the second, and were only caught offside once. The problem might have been that I didn't change countermeasures against 3-3-2-1-1, which should've been to increase D-line to push up (and move every attacking player up the pitch), where the aim would've been to catch the sole forward offside and let the MC:s harrass the AMC (in spirit with the setting being tested). So I redid the test, with a new countermeasure (higher D-line) against the catenaccio, to which the opposition changed after injuring my right winger (26th minute). They were not once caught offside during the latter 20 minutes of the first half.

During the second, the opposition seems to have switched to a 3-3-2-1-1 with attacking mentality and short arrows on the wingbacks (woah).

The stats were abysmal, despite a 1-0 win:

Shots 3 (2) - 13 (5)

Possession 46 - 54

Offsides 4 - 1

Cross Completion 30 - 58

Somewhat ironically, the number of offsides my team committed increased.

Test #5

OK, so instead of following through with other d-line and cd-iterations, I tried the "logical" approach, with Offside Trap, High D-line (first notch of Push Up), Low CD (5ish for most players), higher mentality on the defenders (8ish) and all midfielders moved up a position on the pitch. The results should probably be compared to Test #3.

The opposition scored an offside-goal (I don't like these realistic judges...) during their 3-3-2-1-1 phase, but switched to 4-4-2 with long farrows on the midfielders after I scored the second goal.

Gunnilse 2 - 1 Enköping

Shots 8 (2) - 11 (6)

Possession 45 - 55

Offsides 6 - 5

Cross completion 50 - 41

I was quite lucky to win, and it seems to be a gamble to use the offside trap (duhh with the defenders on normal mentality). However, it actually seemed effective against 3-3-2-1-1, and might've been more so with the MC:s specifically instructed to harrass the AMC. The offside-count is bloated, since the opposition changed to 4-2-4 towards the end.

The main thing that Offside Trap appears to do for a poorer side is to make sure your players are caught offside. It would be nice to have a Opposition Instruction to the effect of "try to catch this player offside" against 1-forward formations.

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WWFAN, may i summarise your article into an point-by-point easy to read guide for this forum? I have re-vised the format so it's easier to read and added in a few pointers from other threads that i think would be useful.

If you want i could send it to you first before you approve it.

this is because this article is pretty long and very hard to re-read when looking for pointers.

hope you approve,

thx.

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Originally posted by Cleon:

Thats why I asked icon_biggrin.gif

On FM07, a lone striker works excellently. In fact id go as far as saying its the best method of attack I have used so far, especially if you got good pacy AMC's who can play off him. The lone striker creates a helluva lot of space at times.

How would you set up these players? I've been trying a few things, but I can't seem to get them to score goals. My defence is set-up pretty good, since I've only conceded 8 in 24 games in the league (and the defenders I've got aren't that impressive.), but my goalscoring record is awfull, only 18 goals scored so far...

BTW: I'm playing with Catanzaro in the Italian Serie C2-C

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have one striker on FR and Run with ball on often and the three attributes below on mixed.PS on short with closing down rarely, and most importantly have Hold up ball ticked.With the other striker, have the same things applied except untick hold up ball and have through balls on often.Seems to help with my Spurs team, with Berbatov getting 20+ goals.See how it goes.

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Originally posted by alantas:

alrights! i tried my very very best to accomodate and build my home and away tactic based around this theorem from my understanding, and have just tested out my home and away tactic;

here's the list of the games as Man Utd;

1. win 4-0 vs blackburn @home

2. win 1-0 vs Aston Villa @home

3. win 3-0 vs Fulham @away

4.win 3-2 vs Watford @away

5.win 8-0 Hartlepool @home

6.win 3-0 vs Manchester City @away

7.win 1-0 vs Liverpool @home

8.drew 1-1 vs 10men Wigan @away

9.4-1 win vs Southampton 10.drew 1-1 vs Tottenham @home

10games, 8wins, 2draws, 29goals scored, 5goals conceded.

=======================================

The Tactic Shape (for both) - Note; i know that my first team choice might be awkward, but it's due to injuries (i put some in reserves till match fit (there's an option to do that) )

Team HOME Instructions

DRL HOME Instructions

DC HOME Instructions

DMC HOME Instructions

AMC HOME Instructions

FCa HOME Instructions

FCa HOME Instructions

===================================

TEAM Instructions AWAY

DRL AWAY

DC AWAY

DMC AWAY

AMC

MRL AWAY

FCd AWAY

FCa

phew!

i know that man utd isn't the hardest team to manage, but i sincerely hope that you guys could land me a helping hand! =) thanks!

what do you guys think? care to try it?

(PS. where do i upload my tactics to?)

Great1!

May i ask for an away tactics file?

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Hello there guys...awesome forum...lots to ponder....my question is to Cleon.....I play with a 4-1-2-2-1 formation....the lone striker gets lots of chances as you have mentioned for yourself, although his heading is not very good....the problems I'm having though is that at home I am not creating enough shots and am conceding also ...i would love to see your tactic and am wondering if you have it anywhere to view because I strongly believe the lone target man is thw way forward also....Cheers and keep up the good work lads.

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Originally posted by eL Bicon_smile.giftTiNhicon_redface.gif:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

Thats why I asked icon_biggrin.gif

On FM07, a lone striker works excellently. In fact id go as far as saying its the best method of attack I have used so far, especially if you got good pacy AMC's who can play off him. The lone striker creates a helluva lot of space at times.

How would you set up these players? I've been trying a few things, but I can't seem to get them to score goals. My defence is set-up pretty good, since I've only conceded 8 in 24 games in the league (and the defenders I've got aren't that impressive.), but my goalscoring record is awfull, only 18 goals scored so far...

BTW: I'm playing with Catanzaro in the Italian Serie C2-C </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Set who up, a lone striker or the AMC?

Hello there guys...awesome forum...lots to ponder....my question is to Cleon.....I play with a 4-1-2-2-1 formation....the lone striker gets lots of chances as you have mentioned for yourself, although his heading is not very good....the problems I'm having though is that at home I am not creating enough shots and am conceding also ...i would love to see your tactic and am wondering if you have it anywhere to view because I strongly believe the lone target man is thw way forward also....Cheers and keep up the good work lads.

I've no idea why without knowing much about the tactic. You might be better creating a new thread, but list every single detail about the tactic, then someone might notice a problem.

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Was just wondering what people are using as there formation?Rule of 2?5x5 defensive line?Split Global?Has anyone found one that works well away from home?

I have noticed that in games both home and away my crossing percentage is very low.wwfan or cleon, do you have any idea what the cause of that could be?

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Originally posted by rashidi1:

When you get your game, one thing you'll notice, no matter how attacking a formation you line up, your shot counts are always not as high as you expect.

This happens even when you reduce the D-line to encourage a team to come up and attack. I've used 343s, 4132s, some hybrids, but I always return to a diamond for consistency.

There was a match where my shot count was 5 and we scored 3 goals. Yeah there is a lot of movement in the diamond, but I would have thought that you'd get more shot counts.

Like I predicted when I played the Demo, this may not turn out to be a game for the casual gamer, and I expect SI for biz reasons to make it easier to get the shots off in the patch

I would strongly like to see this for the new update icon_wink.gif

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Originally posted by adonis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fg:

Adonis

Your defensive record is incredible!! Could you tell me something about your tactic? Ps do you have wright email in your profile?

Yeh email address is in profile. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i sent you email. Have you received it?

ps. isn`t you email is wrong? ( haven`t "@" sign )

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fg the email didn't go through some kind of delivery failure, so i will reply back here about my set up.

My tactic is a 4411

Away games fb runs on rarely and CD and 2 Mc's, closing down 5 for all players, width is 5 so narrow, time wasting 15, tempo 15 counter attack on,defensive line 14 and passing down the flanks and the back 4 on tight marking.

Passing set up is FB-8, CD-6, MC-6, MR/L-8, AMC-4 and SC-2.

I also use rashidi's corner routine which has helped me get last minute goals for a 1-0 result about 3 times so far.

Also try and play a settled side even if I change two positions I have noticed they tend to take their time getting into the game.

spanishfirstdivisionjh5.th.jpg

still going great!

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Hi All,

I've been testing WWFanm incredible framework theory, but for me it's not working ... at least ... yet.

I started with a standard 442 attacking from the menu and started tweaking untill it was pretty solid and had quite a good start and leading the charts with 6 wins and 3 draws. Still i felt it wasn't it, so i started browsing the forum ofcourse for some theories and tips and read this incredible post.

I implemented the Diamond like WWFan is explaining and chose the Rule of 2 tactic with mirroring and to be honest it doesn't work at all. It's not that i'm losing, i've been drawing for 10 games now. The play looks bad and the opponent gets more chances then me. So it doesn't look it has perspective ...

I'll keep playing on for a few matches to see if it's getting better when the players are maybe getting more used to it.

I know changing tactics during the season isn't the best thing to do, but i felt losing some grip after +- 8 matches and felt i had to change.

Anyway, those are my findings for now ...

Maybe i need to tweak it more to the qualities the players have to get better results, will get back at y'all icon_smile.gif

And ow, i'm playing Young Boys in Switserland.

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Guest marcopolio

Just a quick comment on the possesion stats.

I've noticed that often, I have two banks of four set as the oppo have the ball - the oppo then knock the ball back and forth in the back four and midfield around the half way line and deeper.

This leads to >50% possesion for the oppo but in a completely non threatening area. Using a rule of two kind of play, my teams tend to close down a la Liverpool - once the opposition get within 40 yards or so we hunt them down and force them back, but with direct passing we try and shift the ball around quickly and create more chances.

Great thread wwfan and great contributions fellas.

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Ive never posted before but id just like to say that wwfan. You should get a game in real football, you are obviusly a deep thinker who would probably excell in the real game.

Either that or you are a complete geek icon_wink.gif

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Originally posted by fg:

adonis

Incredible!!!

On away games two mc- forward runs- rearly?

Adonis could you send me your tactic on my mail adress? It will be simplier.

regards

yes away games i give them rarely to start of with, if i am struggling to create anything worth while then change the more creative's fwd runs to often.

The tactic I have is a good base but I don't just leave it as it is and play the games, I look at the opposition formation and act accordingly. I make alot of tweaks during the match itself depending on different scenarios you just need to know what to do and when, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't thats the game of fotball that everyone loves! It works for me so far but it might not for other people.

In my 26 league games so far i have had about 10 1-0 wins, these are the games that can go either way, not many chances created by either side but luckily my players have taken there's so far or have produced something special and with players like ronaldino, messi and deco there's always a chance.

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the game is a joke, i dont know what to say to the players after a game, i just won a game against chelsea at stamford, with juventus 2-0, after the game i said to them "fantastic", then i looked how the players reacted, there is written "it seems that he is not listening", in italian

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It would seem that playing players in their NATURAL position is completely irrelevent.

If you check how the opposition line-up you will notice how way too often players are out of position and yet they can still walk over you.

As for my game yet again injuries completely ruin everything. My first FOUR strikers out injured was followed by the worst run of results possible. Beaten at home by teams like Watford & West Ham easily. icon_mad.gif

West Ham won 1-0 despite playing SIX players out of position.

Having been fairly impressed by the game at first it is now becoming distinctly annoying when you notice things like this.

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Well i may have found a good way to beat Chelsea.Im using the Rule of Two technique, and playing the posession style of formation.I thought when ifirst beat Chelsea 5-3 at home in the league it was a fluke, but the link below shows it wasnt.i think that trying to pass the ball quickly and also just keeping your full backs slightly on the defensive means that their wing forwards cant get the space to run in to.Maybe this is a good way to play against big teams.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/josha007/shield.jpg

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Shot Count

Any takers for a high shot count? If so, what do you do? I noticed in the Tactics Test that the RoT tactic had the highest level of chance conversion, so if we can get the shot counts up we should be flying.

Offside Trap

Nothing really conclusive. It may help against ultra-defensive systems.

Summarising

If you wish to summarise into simpler form be my guest. I hope it is a manageable task.

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Any advice on how to set up a formation to counter particular opp formations? There are already good methods for handling the 4-2-4 and the 3-3-2-1-1 out there and in here, but not so much on other types that come up, like the AMC parked behind one or two strikers, or handling a 4-3-2-1 front-loaded formation.

The standard set by wwfan's discussion on 3-3-2-1-1, in which he explained how the opp would likely play in this formation, and then how you could do certain things to take advantage of it, is the sort of thing I was after. Not so much on standard 4-4-2s, because that seems pretty neutral and not ripe for exploitation, but I am curious about some of the more aggressive/unusual formations you see, like the ones I mentioned above.

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Originally posted by bflaff:

Any advice on how to set up a formation to counter particular opp formations? There are already good methods for handling the 4-2-4 and the 3-3-2-1-1 out there and in here, but not so much on other types that come up, like the AMC parked behind one or two strikers, or handling a 4-3-2-1 front-loaded formation.

The standard set by wwfan's discussion on 3-3-2-1-1, in which he explained how the opp would likely play in this formation, and then how you could do certain things to take advantage of it, is the sort of thing I was after. Not so much on standard 4-4-2s, because that seems pretty neutral and not ripe for exploitation, but I am curious about some of the more aggressive/unusual formations you see, like the ones I mentioned above.

I'd need more explanation on the exact formation. If it is the Chelsea formation then it is easy to beat. However, if it is the French version of the 4-3-2-1 then it is very difficult and I haven't played enough against it to offer much help. I originally designed the 4-2-3-1 as a counter against the 4-4-2 short-farrows and it worked wonders. I mis-uploaded a 4-5-1 which apparantly worked well against the Benitez 4-2-3-1 system, but I never tried it myself.

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Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pete S

This is the best fan post I have seen in any of the forums over the 10 years I have been playing CM/FM. It is particularly well researched and clearly written - thank you and well done!

I was already employing some of these ideas in a more limited way in FM06 but have now started to use your rule of 2 in FM07.

I have found the tactic to be highly effective but there are a few changes in FM07 (down to slider sensitivity I believe)that need to be considered. These are:

1. You need to amend the defensive line for each game based on the pace and attacking line of the opposition. This becomes particularly apparent after any 're-ranking' of your team's abilitytherwise you may find the opposition constantly beating your defence and getting into frequent one-on-one situations with your GK.

Therefore, it is important to listen to scout reports on the next opposition (in FM07 they provide advice on defending deep or using fast defenders) and use your eyes during the game, to determine how effective your defensive line is (just like in real football) and amend it accordingly. I found that amending my defensive line up or down the pitch when the opposition were controling the game and creating chances, allowed my team to get a foothold back in the game.

2. Timewasting. I have not had too much trouble sticking to the away tactic of 5/15 on the sliders for width/timewasting but you need to be careful not to employ these too early.Starting with a 10/10 slider approach may work better for some (not properly tested in my game yet).

3. Your approach to playing ultra-defensive systems still works well but again, you need to adjust the defensive sliders to counter the opposition's pace and line, as these vary from team to team. Sticking strictly to the ROT formula does not necessarily work for me otherwise.

Anyone else got any results on testing ROT in FM07 yet?

Thanks for the d-line observations. It seems to be quite a contentious issue in '07. The mentality/d-line match doesn't seem to be holding water the same way as '06. I would like to put the following thought out for comments/testing:

Defensive Line in '07

In '06, I used Asmo's d-line/mentality matching concept to build a solid defence. The premise was that the d-line should be set to the same mentality as your most attacking midfielder. That way the formation remained compact and there weren't too many gaps between defence and midfield. This theory needed a few revisions in '06.

Revision One: DMC

I found that if you used a DMC then a high defensive line became a liability. The DMC got dragged into the back four and allowed the opposing midfielders too much time and space to thread balls into the penalty area. Reducing the defensive line by two notches seemed to correct this problem.

Revision Two: Breaking Down the 3-3-2-1-1

I found that a high d-line became problematic when playing teams who sat back. The problem was that the defenders were put under pressure too quickly when picking up clearances from the AI, which meant they couldn't recycle possession. Dropping it by another 4 notches led to the DCs being in lots of space when picking up loose balls and allowed them to hold possession until the attack reorganised.

Revision Three: FM07

D-line seems to have been remodelled allowing for defensive solidity when deep or high. Pete S suggest modulating the d-line in game. That should work very well, but it would be nice to have a system that is stable from kick off. I suggest the following tests:

1) Slow Defenders Test: If you have slow defenders does it mean the d-line has to be deep? If so, what happens to the space between the midfield and the defence? Does the AI exploit it a la FM06, or, has the engine been rewritten so that gap is no longer there? If this is the case, then d-line relates entirely to defensive speed and should be set accordingly. If it isn't the case, and there is a big gap, then other adjustments need to be made. The best way to test this is to play one high d-line and one low d-line game against at decent side and make a qualitative judgement as to the amount of space there is between your defence and attack. You must play your four slowest defenders. Please post the results, as this could be very important!!

2) Tight v Loose: In '06, becuase of the RoT structure, a compact system relied on a high d-line. Once your side gained a reputation for dominance then the d-line had to be reduced to create more space for attacking moves. Is this still the case in '07? The best way to test this is to play two games against a poor side that iikely to sit back and defend. Play one with a high d-lina and one with a low d-line and see which game produces the most chances. Please post results.

Possible Results

1) D-line relates entirely to pace of defence. It then becomes easy to judge an effective setting.

2) D-line relates to attacking and defensive options. Again, it becomes easy to build two systems.

3) D-line has been reworked to reflect defensive pace BUT still needs to be linked with midfield mentality. If this is the case, then the whole RoT system needs to be revised, as a low d-line cannot work with a high mentality midfield, as there will be too much space between defence and attack. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wanted to repost this as it seems to have been lost in the general discussion and I think it may be very important.

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ok, i think ive cracked the 442 with short farrows on ML MR.

I dont know if there is a few types of this 442, but if u scout opposition it'll say they play defensive 442, and like to play possesion football and like to draw the opposition onto them before counter attack.

Ok, using the standard RoT for 4132 (Direct passing back 5, short passing front 5, and mentailty near 100 across the board); u must play narrow around 5-8; and u must at all cost sit deep (i used 5). focus passing down the flanks, and use sarrows on forwards only (as if u are defending a lead).

The key is to give all 5 attacking players a high closing down around 15(easy tackling). I've been watching it carefully and u end up snatching the ball off them in midfield most the time. sure, it's not a pretty game with passing around 65% both sides, but if u endure it for a 45 mins they usually change to attacking formation; or u snatch a goal against it.

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Originally posted by lesvegas:

Ive never posted before but id just like to say that wwfan. You should get a game in real football, you are obviusly a deep thinker who would probably excell in the real game.

Either that or you are a complete geek icon_wink.gif

In the real world, football is not my game of choice. I prefer more individualistic games. I enjoy watching it but haven't played since I left school. I do play my sport of choice to a pretty high standard though (or I did when I was younger and fitter)!

As for being a deep thinker, I'm doing a PhD in Management, but focusing on the critical deconstruction of business science management rather than focussing on 'how to manage' a la FM. I was playing around with the idea of doing some cultural research into the complexituy of managing multi-cultural identities in a football club, but the sun and sand of Australia called louder.

As for being a geek, my wife says I'm a nerd, which I'm told has different connotations. Something to do with the desire to know for knowledge's sake alone! I'm not sure if I know what she's talking about half the time. I'm sure she has a point though.

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First of all, are you able to play yet, WW?

Second, as many people seem to be getting a lot of injuries and weird stat-increase/decrease development I would like to ask them to get into training as it seems that setting str. and aero. to high gives them more injuries indeed.

Please check this post and try my schedules if you'd like to see how that goes (I know I still got str. and aero. pretty high, but I simply refuse to believe that it will not make my players better athletes, as that is what it is supposed to do...) (Link to STAaS-Pos.Dis.)

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Second Post, btw...

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I started a new game with AZ Alkmaar (Dutch PD) about a week ago, and have played 2 games so far. I have read this thread since it started, but couldn't be bothered to comment as long as I didn't get out of the before-mentioned "CM-Fatique"-thing.

Anyway, my first two games weren't that bad, a draw against a equal side, and a win against a relegation-candidate...but then I remembered this beautifull piece of logic-written-art, and decided to give it a go.

Here's the formation I just created, as basic as possible:

4-4-2 normal with FB's and SM's (side midfielders, anyone?) farrowed, one MC dfarrowed and the other dbarrowed.

The rest is basic RoT settings, tweaked a little by the hand of WW's assumptions after feedback from people playing '07.

Team instructions are 13,13,7,17,13,7,7,10.

None of the 5 options checked.

Only back four TM, and CD high on them as well as MC with dba.

Hold ball for him and FC in front of him (which is the bigger one, btw).

I'm off to get some more games in, and I'll use this tactic home and away, and let you know in a couple of days.

Cheers guys, R.

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Damn I'm supposed to be at work in 3 hours, and I only just came home from my other job, but this just popped up:anyone thought about how setting your previous experience might get A.I. to react differently (i.e. being an ex-prof would get you higher world rankings etc. at start of game, probably without changing your stats?)

Cheers, R.

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In my games training is not touched.

I used to go through each coach and player with (***** )coaches everywhere and what did I find? NOTHING! No improvement anywhere.

Now leaving training completely alone has meant that the occaisonal player does improve.

However, BOTH ways still lead to an injury crisis. From then on the idea of a settled side goes out the window and it becomes defeat after defeat...

Gonna give the game a rest for now. icon_frown.gif I'll wait to see if the patch helps things.

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any idea when the patch is arrving? obviously, there's a few things that need fixing. i'm still playing the demo but things like defensive set pieces being changed (which i've sort of found a solution to from the bugs forum) and spanish players having low minimum fee release clauses will hopefully be sorted.

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For those struggling after re-ranking - putting your forwards on higher closing down + more creative freedom seems to work.

After struggling for the 1st 10 games of my second season, I'm now back to consistently winning ways, and comfortably.

I think this has been mentioned by Rashidi elsewhere in the forum, but thought I'd highlight it again for people.

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Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pete S

This is the best fan post I have seen in any of the forums over the 10 years I have been playing CM/FM. It is particularly well researched and clearly written - thank you and well done!

I was already employing some of these ideas in a more limited way in FM06 but have now started to use your rule of 2 in FM07.

I have found the tactic to be highly effective but there are a few changes in FM07 (down to slider sensitivity I believe)that need to be considered. These are:

1. You need to amend the defensive line for each game based on the pace and attacking line of the opposition. This becomes particularly apparent after any 're-ranking' of your team's abilitytherwise you may find the opposition constantly beating your defence and getting into frequent one-on-one situations with your GK.

Therefore, it is important to listen to scout reports on the next opposition (in FM07 they provide advice on defending deep or using fast defenders) and use your eyes during the game, to determine how effective your defensive line is (just like in real football) and amend it accordingly. I found that amending my defensive line up or down the pitch when the opposition were controling the game and creating chances, allowed my team to get a foothold back in the game.

2. Timewasting. I have not had too much trouble sticking to the away tactic of 5/15 on the sliders for width/timewasting but you need to be careful not to employ these too early.Starting with a 10/10 slider approach may work better for some (not properly tested in my game yet).

3. Your approach to playing ultra-defensive systems still works well but again, you need to adjust the defensive sliders to counter the opposition's pace and line, as these vary from team to team. Sticking strictly to the ROT formula does not necessarily work for me otherwise.

Anyone else got any results on testing ROT in FM07 yet?

Thanks for the d-line observations. It seems to be quite a contentious issue in '07. The mentality/d-line match doesn't seem to be holding water the same way as '06. I would like to put the following thought out for comments/testing:

Defensive Line in '07

In '06, I used Asmo's d-line/mentality matching concept to build a solid defence. The premise was that the d-line should be set to the same mentality as your most attacking midfielder. That way the formation remained compact and there weren't too many gaps between defence and midfield. This theory needed a few revisions in '06.

Revision One: DMC

I found that if you used a DMC then a high defensive line became a liability. The DMC got dragged into the back four and allowed the opposing midfielders too much time and space to thread balls into the penalty area. Reducing the defensive line by two notches seemed to correct this problem.

Revision Two: Breaking Down the 3-3-2-1-1

I found that a high d-line became problematic when playing teams who sat back. The problem was that the defenders were put under pressure too quickly when picking up clearances from the AI, which meant they couldn't recycle possession. Dropping it by another 4 notches led to the DCs being in lots of space when picking up loose balls and allowed them to hold possession until the attack reorganised.

Revision Three: FM07

D-line seems to have been remodelled allowing for defensive solidity when deep or high. Pete S suggest modulating the d-line in game. That should work very well, but it would be nice to have a system that is stable from kick off. I suggest the following tests:

1) Slow Defenders Test: If you have slow defenders does it mean the d-line has to be deep? If so, what happens to the space between the midfield and the defence? Does the AI exploit it a la FM06, or, has the engine been rewritten so that gap is no longer there? If this is the case, then d-line relates entirely to defensive speed and should be set accordingly. If it isn't the case, and there is a big gap, then other adjustments need to be made. The best way to test this is to play one high d-line and one low d-line game against at decent side and make a qualitative judgement as to the amount of space there is between your defence and attack. You must play your four slowest defenders. Please post the results, as this could be very important!!

2) Tight v Loose: In '06, becuase of the RoT structure, a compact system relied on a high d-line. Once your side gained a reputation for dominance then the d-line had to be reduced to create more space for attacking moves. Is this still the case in '07? The best way to test this is to play two games against a poor side that iikely to sit back and defend. Play one with a high d-lina and one with a low d-line and see which game produces the most chances. Please post results.

Possible Results

1) D-line relates entirely to pace of defence. It then becomes easy to judge an effective setting.

2) D-line relates to attacking and defensive options. Again, it becomes easy to build two systems.

3) D-line has been reworked to reflect defensive pace BUT still needs to be linked with midfield mentality. If this is the case, then the whole RoT system needs to be revised, as a low d-line cannot work with a high mentality midfield, as there will be too much space between defence and attack. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wanted to repost this as it seems to have been lost in the general discussion and I think it may be very important. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i sorted out my 4-5-1 tactic last night and am doing alright with my d-line. a mate on GPTG said he always uses a quite deep defensive line as he was conceding due to one-on-ones from playing too high.

i've not played many games with my 4-5-1, but i beat reading away 4-0 in my first game after tweaking the away tactic. the d-line is 12 for away games. then i tweaked the home version and beat newcastle 1-0, although martins was proving a problem with his pace in their 4-4-1-1 and i wasn't playing particularly well despite leading 1-0 at half time. for the 2nd half i moved the d-line back to 8, which seemed to nullify martins' threat better and also gave me more room to pass the ball and i played better football, although i didn't score but that didn't matter too much.

for the next game - spurs at home, which i lost in my first demo game - i changed the d-line to 8 and the result was much better. i won 4-1, their goal coming from a cross to head.

i haven't been playing an offside trap in those games btw. i think that the d-line should be altered according to the pace of your defenders and also the pace of the opposition strikers. reading and spurs didn't really give me any problems pace-wise, although they didn't play a striker at any point who has a lot of pace. my defenders always have a decent amount of pace: neville-13, coloccini-15, vidic-13, silvestre-15, baines-16. those were the 5 that i rotated in the 3 games i've mentioned.

i'll keep reporting back on what i see with the d-line, let me know if you want any other information from those 3 games to analyse the d-line, wwfan. i'm loving my 4-5-1 still, and i've still got 4 key players to get back to full fitness.

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Guest Alienpruts

Just a quick note to say thank you to wwfan and all the other tactical "genuises" on this board for their contribution to the enjoyment of the game.

I always considered myself a reasonable manager (LLM of coursse... icon_smile.gif ) and as such I have always tried to create my own tactics, rather than download some one else's. In the past two years I gained some insight in the game's mechanics and football in particular, and have tried to incorporate my "knowledge" (ahum...) into this game, with a good degree of success.

But after reading your threads on tactical frameworks, I truly understood what I was doing, and I enjoy the game even more than I thought was possible.

For example : FM05 I really could be upset when losing for a long time, and I would quit the game and start over. Not anymore, credits to you people. Now I actually try to understand what is going wrong, and trying to remedy the problem, and having fun doing so.

Now, in FM07 i could be relegating, and still walk around with a smile on my face, because I know at least I tried to do something about it. And I could be experiencing excessive red cards / injuries, but I actually deal with it, as a real world manager should.

So to cut this short : thank you all for your insights. Rest assured the true CM/FM fans appreciate what you are doing, even if we don't find the time to write it down in this forum...

Cheers m8's

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Well I only missed five First Team players, and still managed to get better possession and action zones percentages, even though I lost 3-4.

I'm still sticking with this to see how it might go after a couple of games, since my assistent also tells me at the team report screen that my players aren't working particularly well, so that might be a problem there, and I'll test it on home games for sure...

Cheers, R.

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Im just throwing myself into this discussion. Im one of the old school, and Ive always based my tactics from what I see in the 2D - which is the basic to understand how thing works.

I still do this, but I also use it together with ROT and Slider pairing theories, because it seems to fit my own theories of how football should be played.

Ok, to the point:

At the moment Im using a 4-1-3-2 tactic that has been very stable for me. The two first seasons with VÃ¥lerenga ended with two league titles and quite good results in Europe.

The only problem I had there was that I didnt score enough goals, but who cares when you let in 0.4 goals on average over two years?.

Then I was approached by Leeds, which was on a 6 match no-win streak. I took the job and used the tactic again. Well, it didnt start out well, I didnt win in 6 matches. But then I went unbeaten for the reminder of the season.

Still I scored few goals, but another problem occured to me: Almost all goals I got against me come from the wings, to unmarked players within the box. This had not been a problem with VÃ¥lerenga, so I decided that I was gonna tweak the tactic a little bit more the next season.

Both my home and away tactics are what I would call high-pressing tactics. I like to track down the opponent as fast as possible, give them as little time as possible. Therefore my defenders are set to close down relatively high, both home and away(a little higher at home, since teams tend to sit back more there).

This wasnt a problem at VÃ¥lerenga, since the defenders there are relatively good compared to the opponents. But in Leeds this was a big problem. My central defenders where closing down in positions where it should have been either the DMC or the MC doing the job. The result was of course that when the ball was played down the wing, my DCs were out of position, leaving one or two men open in the box.

So after watching my friendlies before the next season, I knew I had to do something. I tried adjust mentality settings and closing down settings at first. It got a little better, but still not good enough.

It wasnt before after my three first league games I realised what was missing. I had a suspicion that I needed to adjust the defensive line, to get a bigger gap between my DMC and DC, so that the DC wouldnt track down players that should be closed down by the DMC.

I know this might not be the solution, but what I did was to set the defensive line to the opposite value of the highest closing down defender. My highest closing down in the home tactic is 16, so I set the defensive line to 4. Away my highest closing down in defence is 14, so I set the defensive line to 6.

The results have been extremly good for me. From loosing the 3 first matches with 1-6 in GD, Im unbeaten for 7 games with a 15-2 GD. My defenders only close down the players that gets into the box, and the number of chances created from wingers crossing against me have been reduced dramatically.

At least that has worked for me icon_smile.gif

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Originally posted by Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover:

In my games training is not touched.

I used to go through each coach and player with (***** )coaches everywhere and what did I find? NOTHING! No improvement anywhere.

Now leaving training completely alone has meant that the occaisonal player does improve.

However, BOTH ways still lead to an injury crisis. From then on the idea of a settled side goes out the window and it becomes defeat after defeat...

Gonna give the game a rest for now. icon_frown.gif I'll wait to see if the patch helps things.

That's strange. For the first half of my first season, I used the training regimes that wwfan had come up with for FM 06. They didn't seem to work very well so I made my own, and ever since my players' attributes have been going up dramatically.

I'm kind of proud to have come up with something of my own in the game, which works better than something from wwfan icon_wink.gif

I'm not sure about the impact of having more stars (rating) on training assignments. Surely the more stars you have the better?

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