Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '07

[supersaint]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

Thanks mate- a thought-provoking post indeed!

I shall experiment with this later- it would be handy to have some defensive line correlation to tactic buliding, as we did with mentality/defensive line in FM2006.

Have you tested it in formations without an out-and--out DMC?

I like to provoke - just ask my girlfriend

Actually that is what it started with, because I tried followed the FM06 setup for D-L, but it just didnt work out.

I also like to have guidelines that can be used to build tactics around, so if my theory proves to be reliable Im very happy

Ive tested it with a 3-man midfield, and a flat 4-4-2 with barrow on one player. Havent done it enough to make any conclusions, but similar effects have been seen there.

[Rashidi]

the fact that my gf is not having any "dessert" now is going to be your fault...supersaint. ;-)

[Asmodeus]

[Cleon]

Glad to see you got your priorities right

[jtgarton]

does this only relate to central defenders? should full backs still close down reasonably heavily? also what do people tend to do for midfield closing down?

[ntfc]

WOW. SS in case someone hasn't already informed you, GF'S are there to be engaged with. They aren't just like a Van Gough painting, where you stand there admiring them.

From skimming through just a short conclusion of closing down.

If you are playing wide, it is important to keep closing down low so they keep in position. So maybe all players under 10.

Although if you are playing narrow, then important to move out your position and win ball, therefore all players with closing down over 10.

Just a short conclusion?

[jtgarton]

can anyone clarify this?

[stonini90]

do you have to save every match by yourself to be saved? because i wanted to post a match with my olympiakos team but i lost my save file. i was playing a 4-1-2-2-1 formation against bayern away. i was losing 3-0 at 20th minute, then 4-1 at half time. i yelled them at half time then increased mentality to all out attack, closing to down to full,wide also. and managed to reverse things to 4-5. i was equalised by a late 87th goal...as always...is it possible to find this game without having the save file?

[Stella_Fella]

Originally posted by supersaint:

I have completed the first PL season with Leeds, using the 6 tactics now. The team was not particularly strengthen, and was predicted to go straigth down.

My set-up looks like this, after tweaking last versions a bit(changes first, old one in brackets):

Home v The 3-3-2-1-1

Mentality: RoT

Width: 17

Time Wasting: 3

Farrows: Long on wingers, short on FBs and MC

Barrows: None

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Mixed(often) for all except DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 6(3)

D-Line: 3

CD for Defenders: DCs 17, FBs 13(15), DMC 16(17)

CD for Attackers: FCs 9(7), MC 16(15), wingers 10(9)

CF for Defenders: DCs 7(4), FBs 10(5), DMC 11(5)

CF for Attackers: FCs 17(7), MC 17(7), wingers 17(13)

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Home v Defensive Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 15

Time Wasting: 5

Farrows: Long wingers, Short MC

Barrows: None

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Mixed(Often) for all, except DCs (rarely), Wing(0ften)

Tempo: 8(5)

D-Line: 5

CD for Defenders: DCs 15, FBs 12(13), DMC 15

CD for Attackers: FCs 7(8) MC 16(13), wingers 8(9)

CF for Defenders: DCs 6(5) FBs 9(5), DMC 11(7)

CF for Attackers: FCs 14(7),MC 13(9) wingers 12(7)

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Home v Normal Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 12

Time Wasting: 8

Farrows: Short on wingers

Barrows: None

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Mixed for Fullbacks & MC, Often for Wingers & FC, Rarely for DC&DMC (Mixed for all, except DCs (rarely))

Tempo: 10(8)

D-Line: 8

CD for Defenders: DCs 12, FBs 10, DMC 12

CD for Attackers: FCs 7, MC 12(13), wingers 9

CF for Defenders: DCs 4(5), FBs 7(5), DMC 9(7)

CF for Attackers: FCs 15(7), MC 13(7), wingers 13(7)

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Away v Normal Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 8

Time Wasting: 12

Farrows: Short on wingers

Barrows: None

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Mixed for FB & MC, Often for Wingers & FC, Rarely for DC & DMC(Mixed for all except DMC and DCs (rarely))

Tempo: 10(12)

D-Line: 12

CD for Defenders: DCs 8, FBs 11(10), DMC 9(8)

CD for Attackers: FCs 11(8), MC 9(13), wingers 11(9)

CF for Defenders: DCs 4(5), FBs 7(5), DMC 10(7)

CF for Attackers: FCs 12(7), MC 14(7), wingers 15(7)

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: No

Away v Attacking Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 5

Time Wasting: 15

Farrows: None

Barrows: None

Sarrows: FCs

FWRs: Mixed for FB, Often for MC, Wingers & AC, rarely for DC & DMC(Mixed for all except wingers (often), DMC and DCs (rarely))

Tempo: 12

D-Line: 15

CD for Defenders: DCs 5, FBs 7(10), DMC 8(5)

CD for Attackers: FCs 12(7), MC 10(13), wingers 12(9)

CF for Defenders: DCs 4(5), FBs 5, DMC 8(10)

CF for Attackers: FCs 14(9), MC 12(9), wingers 12(9)

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: No

Away v Ultra Attacking Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 3

Time Wasting: 17

Farrows: MC

Barrows: Short on wingers

Sarrows: FCs

FWRs: Mixed for FB, Often for MC, Wingers & FC, rarely for DMC & DC

Tempo: 14

D-Line: 17

CD for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 6(13), DMC 8(3)

CD for Attackers: FCs 12(9), MC 10(13), wingers 10(13)

CF for Defenders: DCs 4(5), FBs 4(5), DMC 6(7)

CF for Attackers: FCs 12(9), MC 10(9), wingers 10(9)

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: No

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

Positive sides of the 6 tactics system, with effects of tweaking:

<LI> Relatively strong defensively

<LI> Closing down and Defensive Line mirroring seems to work like a treat.

<LI> Defense is working like one unit

<LI> AI often use long time to break through it, and often switches tactic 4-5 times during the match

<LI> Away: Lowering long shots and tempo and other changes as noted below, made the shot accuracy go up by 6%, and increased the goals per shot on target go up with 12%

<LI> Passing, possession, heading and tackling are almost equal, even though my team is meeting tougher opponents than in Championship

Negative sides:

<LI> Tactics are still too defensive, and more experimenting needed with tempo, passing, arrows, positions, to get it more attacking

<LI> With a minor team(like mine), teams are often throwing attacking tactics against me at home, so away tactics should be used - but this leads to loosing possession often

<LI> Number of chances have reduced to half, most likely because meeting superiour teams often. Still, should be possible to get more out of it

<LI> MC is often going too far up the pitch, despite relatively low mentality and no farrows. 4-1-3-2 not as effective as before?

<LI> Crossings down by 11% - most likely because the AI close both deliver and receiver faster than in Championship

Things to look at for further development:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> Closing down for wide players: should they be set according to the width(to keep them more in position)?

<LI> How to avoid crossings, since most goals against comes from this or from free-kicks. Experimenting with barrows on FB when playing away

<LI> How to get the central midfielders more linked up, so that possession kan be kept easier, when playing in the middle of the park

<LI> What effect does tempo really have?

<LI> When pushing up the D-L, how can u best track down AI "feeders"? More closing down? Play wider?

So for the next test Im gonna change the D-L(and mirror the DC CD), test out barrows on FB more, experiment with wide players closing down and width, adjust tempo a bit more.

When I went through the list above, I realized that the FWR for DMC and MC perhaps need to be adjusted to get them to link up more like they used to do in FM06.

Can you upload this please?

[wwfan]

Originally posted by ntfc:

From skimming through just a short conclusion of closing down.

If you are playing wide, it is important to keep closing down low so they keep in position. So maybe all players under 10.

Although if you are playing narrow, then important to move out your position and win ball, therefore all players with closing down over 10.

Just a short conclusion?

As far as I can tell, it is the opposite.

Wide and deep D-line = high CD

Narrow and high D-line = low CD

That is what I have been working from anyway.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by ntfc:

WOW. SS in case someone hasn't already informed you, GF'S are there to be engaged with. They aren't just like a Van Gough painting, where you stand there admiring them.

From skimming through just a short conclusion of closing down.

If you are playing wide, it is important to keep closing down low so they keep in position. So maybe all players under 10.

Although if you are playing narrow, then important to move out your position and win ball, therefore all players with closing down over 10.

Just a short conclusion?

Mmm, I have been thinking the same thing lately, and Im experimenting with it at the moment

[supersaint]

Originally posted by wwfan:

As far as I can tell, it is the opposite.

Wide and deep D-line = high CD

Narrow and high D-line = low CD

That is what I have been working from anyway.

Im experimenting with the cd for the outer players (FB/wingers), because when playing narrow they tend to move into the pitch, leaving room for wingers to come forward.

But I cant say if youre right or not... From the little testing Ive been doing on this, I cant really come to any conclusion.

[andre_costa]

Originally posted by ntfc:

WOW. SS in case someone hasn't already informed you, GF'S are there to be engaged with. They aren't just like a Van Gough painting, where you stand there admiring them.

And lose some precious time that could be used to find your new tactical masterpiece?? Nonsense, i say!!

[supersaint]

Originally posted by andre_costa:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ntfc:

WOW. SS in case someone hasn't already informed you, GF'S are there to be engaged with. They aren't just like a Van Gough painting, where you stand there admiring them.

And lose some precious time that could be used to find your new tactical masterpiece?? Nonsense, i say!!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is exactly why I found a girlfriend who lives 3 hrs away by car..

[Bademesteren]

Supersaint, you made my day!

Employed your 6 tactics theories to my own tactics and the results are amazing!

Nice play, tight defense and scoring goals...

Thank you!

[supersaint]

Originally posted by Bademesteren:

Supersaint, you made my day!

Employed your 6 tactics theories to my own tactics and the results are amazing!

Nice play, tight defense and scoring goals...

Thank you!

Well, thank you.. but you should also thank wwfan for it, as it was him that originally come up with it.. Im only testing out his theories

[wwfan]

Originally posted by supersaint:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bademesteren:

Supersaint, you made my day!

Employed your 6 tactics theories to my own tactics and the results are amazing!

Nice play, tight defense and scoring goals...

Thank you!

Well, thank you.. but you should also thank wwfan for it, as it was him that originally come up with it.. Im only testing out his theories </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are being too modest. The multi-flavoured tactics are just a reworking of the TT&F '06 approach. The D-line and Closing Down mirroring is all your own work!!

[Guest]

I have been implementing the tactics suggestion that Supersaints had created regarding mirroring the D Line Tempo etc but have had the following results with my Bristol City season 1:

Pre-season

A Hucknell W 11-1

A Welling W 10-0

A York D 1-1

A Bury W 2-0

A Burton W 3-0

A Carshalton W 9-0

H West Brom D 1-1

League

H L Orient D 1-1

H Bournemouth W 1-0

A Northampton D 0-0

A S****horpe L 1-0

A Notts Co. L 3-2aet League Cup 1st Round

Now although in the friendlies it was against weak opposition we had turned most of the shots that we had into goals. The problem arising now is that we are only having an avg of 4-6 shots per game with 50% on target which is quite worrying.

A big big question and subsequently I am a bit confused on is the D Line setting. I have been following the suggestion from Supersaint and it is working ok but surley when playing at home against a defensive side you would want the D Line to be quite high so you stay in there half of the pitch not what has been suggested as playing deep (5).

Im not critising in anyway at all but would like it if maybe somebody in the know could be so kind to explain and giev examples as im starting to think that im not creating many chances as my D Line is too low.

I have left the passing on default which is giving me at least 50% possesion. Oh before I forget I have used the CF as global.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by nonleague:

I have been implementing the tactics suggestion that Supersaints had created regarding mirroring the D Line Tempo etc but have had the following results with my Bristol City season 1:

Pre-season

A Hucknell W 11-1

A Welling W 10-0

A York D 1-1

A Bury W 2-0

A Burton W 3-0

A Carshalton W 9-0

H West Brom D 1-1

League

H L Orient D 1-1

H Bournemouth W 1-0

A Northampton D 0-0

A S****horpe L 1-0

A Notts Co. L 3-2aet League Cup 1st Round

Now although in the friendlies it was against weak opposition we had turned most of the shots that we had into goals. The problem arising now is that we are only having an avg of 4-6 shots per game with 50% on target which is quite worrying.

A big big question and subsequently I am a bit confused on is the D Line setting. I have been following the suggestion from Supersaint and it is working ok but surley when playing at home against a defensive side you would want the D Line to be quite high so you stay in there half of the pitch not what has been suggested as playing deep (5).

Im not critising in anyway at all but would like it if maybe somebody in the know could be so kind to explain and giev examples as im starting to think that im not creating many chances as my D Line is too low.

I have left the passing on default which is giving me at least 50% possesion. Oh before I forget I have used the CF as global.

Nice to hear you have some kind of success with it

Regarding the D-L: High away, low at home is based on what wwfan suggested(from the FM06 approach), and is subject for testing. I think some of the thought here is to stress the teams when playing away, give the attacking sides less time on the ball(which works pretty well). Playing deep at home could lead the teams that plays defensive to try and get forward more often, leaving them voulnerable for quick counters.

I am gonna test with the settings you suggest(which also is logical) to see if that can help my team getting more possession

[paz]

I have been testing the theories with Wigan and have had similar issues to nonleague. I'm not suggesting the theories are flawed because they do look to be a solid base, but I certainly feel that the diamond shape is questionable, the AMC will either get a very high rating - usually because he has scored but often will be compeletely absent from the game - I imagine because a poorer side's players won't have the ability to roam and make space for themselves, as a result my AMC has only scored a handful of goals and provided very few assists. I also feel having this midfielder acting as more or less a third striker is sacrificing a player when you are under the cosh - when he would be better served sitting deeper and breaking forward when necessary a la Lampard, you never see him taking up a starting position of just behind the front two. I'm also still not convinced about the D-Line/Closing down correlation, since testing this theory I have noticed little change in defensive solidity and still ship a lot of goals from deep crosses, this may be partially due to having Ratinho though who seems to enjoy going on random walkabouts and giving the ball to the opposition at will. I am still experimenting with the AMC, firstly by using a barrow and secondly by dropping his mentality to try and get him more involved with the link up play. For me the AMC was often getting 8-10 passes in the entire game which is more or less a complete waste of time unless they are scoring goals. Another thing that I'm really not convinced with is using the deep back line against the 4-5-1 - I have had endless problems tackling this formation most notably against Fulham and Charlton, with any combination of settings I have had no luck combatting the pace of Darrent Bent and Collins John.

[wwfan]

Regarding the Diamond:

I only based my theories on the diamond formation becasue it was the one I used with most success in '06. It would be well worth testing out these theories on a 4-4-2 (with adjustments when necessary i.e. the impossibility of a barrowed AMC) by visualising the DMC as an MCd and the AMC as an MCa.

crazt gra posted earlier on an increased level of performance after switching from a DMC to a flat midfield. Running a test on this (4 games repeated x 2 should be enough) comparing the AMC performance with the MCa performance would be beneficial. Game engine revisions may mean that the 8-16 mentality split I suggest between the DMC and AMC is too high. This can be combatted by:

a) switching the FB mentality (10) with the DMC (8)

b) switching the AMC mentality (16) with the FCd (14)

c) doing both

d) keeping mentalities as is, but reverting to a flat midfield

It would be useful to run a test comparing all four options so, as with supersaint's CF testing on wingers, we can get closer to known best settings.

N.B. On a related note, I may be getting my new PC by the end of the week (or early next week) so my contributions will become empirical as well as hypothetical. Until then, I ask for your patience in testing out my theories.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by supersaint:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nonleague:

I have been implementing the tactics suggestion that Supersaints had created regarding mirroring the D Line Tempo etc but have had the following results with my Bristol City season 1:

Pre-season

A Hucknell W 11-1

A Welling W 10-0

A York D 1-1

A Bury W 2-0

A Burton W 3-0

A Carshalton W 9-0

H West Brom D 1-1

League

H L Orient D 1-1

H Bournemouth W 1-0

A Northampton D 0-0

A S****horpe L 1-0

A Notts Co. L 3-2aet League Cup 1st Round

Now although in the friendlies it was against weak opposition we had turned most of the shots that we had into goals. The problem arising now is that we are only having an avg of 4-6 shots per game with 50% on target which is quite worrying.

A big big question and subsequently I am a bit confused on is the D Line setting. I have been following the suggestion from Supersaint and it is working ok but surley when playing at home against a defensive side you would want the D Line to be quite high so you stay in there half of the pitch not what has been suggested as playing deep (5).

Im not critising in anyway at all but would like it if maybe somebody in the know could be so kind to explain and giev examples as im starting to think that im not creating many chances as my D Line is too low.

I have left the passing on default which is giving me at least 50% possesion. Oh before I forget I have used the CF as global.

Nice to hear you have some kind of success with it

Regarding the D-L: High away, low at home is based on what wwfan suggested(from the FM06 approach), and is subject for testing. I think some of the thought here is to stress the teams when playing away, give the attacking sides less time on the ball(which works pretty well). Playing deep at home could lead the teams that plays defensive to try and get forward more often, leaving them voulnerable for quick counters.

I am gonna test with the settings you suggest(which also is logical) to see if that can help my team getting more possession </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

D-Line & Passing

A low d-line (should) open the play and offer up more chances. However, it does spread the play out a bit more, so may need different passing settings.

I've been thinking about possible solutions to this, with increased possession and chance creation being the indicator as to validity of the theories. I think that reducing through-balls for defensive players when playing deep d-line formations may be the key. Let's look at the reasoning:

1) The RoT framework automatically spreads players out more than global mentalities. Deepening the d-line does this even more. Therefore, a DC looking for a through ball has to thread his pass through a horde of opposition players over distance (most of the AI players, assumed to be playing a defensive mentality, will retreat between the ball and the penalty area immediately after losing possession). If his TTB is set to mixed (as suggested in the original frameworks) he will do this often enough to gift the opposition the ball at frequent intervals. Reducing try through balls to rarely will allow the defence to move forward as a unit and only deliver the ball to the midfield when in position to do so without risk. Reducing pass distance may also help, as it forces the DCs to look for easier balls. Possession stats will increase, as should chances, as it is now only attacking players who are trying to play 'killer' balls.

2) The high DL (higher than possible in a Diamond formation in '06) needs the DCs to be playing through balls with a direct passing setting. This is because the RoT framework insists on the front two remaining attack-focused at all times. The narrow-compact formation that a high d-line produces sucks the opposition forward (plus the factor that employing a compact formation is based on user assumption that the AI is going to pour forward and expose its flanks), so a direct through ball from the DCs to a breaking striker is deadly. Thus, they should remain at mixed, and, tempered with the added risk-reward protection of checking counter-attack, should offer constant opportunites to break.

Any and all testing on this will be extremely useful. Note possession percentages, number of chances, goals per shot on target ratios. Thanks.

[LoOnEY]

Dear all contributors,

This is without doubt, the best thread for all fm fans. I've tried suggestions in the thread, and it work out fine.

I decided to try something radical. Regardless of position,I adjusted the mentality, cf, closing down and passing according to the ability of each player.

Mentality is adjusted according to the decision making attribute. For example, if player alpha has a rating of 15 for decision making, the slider is adjusted to 15. This will allow the player to evaluate the situation around him and do the appropriate move. Whether he should pass, shoot, or dribble, its up to the player.

Cf is adjusted according to the combination of creativity and flair. I add up both ratings and divide by 2. The slider is then adjusted accordingly.

Closing down is adjusted according to teamwork, work rate and anticipation. Add up all 3 ratings, and divide by 3.

Passing is harder to explain though. The maximum i've gone is 10.I don't like direct and long balls. It's been working fine so far.

The rest of the instructions are pretty straight forward. if the player has a rating of above 16 in the related attribute, i'll set it to often. Anything less than 14, is set to rarely. Anything between that is mixed.

As for the d-line, i've set it according to the average pace+acceleration of the back 4.

Pls note that the slider should be adjusted according to the quality of your team. if you're using the top 4, of coz, the slider shld be abt the same as mine. Otherwise, let's say u're using a 1st division team, and your player has a creativity of 12, and that is considered the highest in the club, i'll set his cf to abt 16-19. But of coz, if you're facing man utd, shld revert the slider back to be more realistic . It is also dependent on the type of opposition you're playing.

all comments and feedback are welcome

[ntfc]

I finally have some spare time to conduct some testing and FM.

[Beeno]

Set Peices

As no-one has really addressed this yet I thought I might have a go. There is already a good post on The Dugout on how to set up attacking set peices, but nothing on how to defend them.

How to win games

I reckon I lost up to 10 pts last season from schocking goals conceded from corners and free kicks as the default settings seem to fall short.

I hope to post my results soon.

[Asmodeus]

I always use the "man mark"/"mark tall player" approach for all but my quickest forward when defending set pieces; I'm contemplating putting my full-backs on near/far posts for free-kicks now too.

[Bademesteren]

Originally posted by Beeno:

Set Peices

As no-one has really addressed this yet I thought I might have a go. There is already a good post on The Dugout on how to set up attacking set peices, but nothing on how to defend them.

How to win games

I reckon I lost up to 10 pts last season from schocking goals conceded from corners and free kicks as the default settings seem to fall short.

I hope to post my results soon.

Read the post and it seems that this guy has another way to set up his tactics, and that he would not give much for these theories...

[supersaint]

Ok, Ive now finished the third test with the 6-tactics system. I have changed things around a bit this time, hoping that it could give better position, attacking opportunities etc. The major change from the two first tests have been that Ive switch the D-L home and away, so that I have a deep line away and high away. I reworked the mentality settings as an experiment and paired it with passing again.

I have also changed it from a normal 4-1-3-2, to a little more special one:

The reason for this was that the normal 4-1-3-2 had a tendency of having too big gap between the DMC and the MC. Setting it up like this, makes the DMC go forward, and almost be in line with the MC when attacking. This should give higher passing rating.

The season ended in 7th place, but could have been better. In the first 19 games I only let in 11 goals, but in the last 19 I let in 21, and lost lots of points were I gained them in the first half of the season.

Stats for the three versions:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

HOME W D L SH OT POS PAS CRO TAC HEA GOA GAA SA GPSOG

Version 1 88% 12% 0% 8,88 3,75 48% 63% 43% 62% 47% 1,63 0,13 42% 43% ***SHORT TIME IN PROMOTION SEASON***

Version 2 42% 37% 21% 5,79 2,26 47% 61% 32% 59% 52% 0,95 0,47 36% 34% ***FIRST SEASON IN PREMIER LEAGUE***

Version 3 53% 26% 21% 8,68 3,37 48% 69% 29% 57% 56% 1,16 0,68 40% 35%

AWAY

Version 1 38% 50% 13% 10,00 3,50 48% 61% 43% 72% 51% 0,75 0,50 35% 21%

Version 2 16% 11% 73% 5,11 2,21 47% 61% 33% 67% 55% 0,79 2,26 41% 33%

Version 3 32% 42% 26% 7,05 2,53 48% 65% 24% 74% 54% 0,95 1,00 36% 37%

</pre>

The most positive thing I can see is that the passing stats have gone up, probably because of the two midfielders being more linked up than before. The other thing is the goals per shot on goal away, that also is going up. This seems to be because of the deep D-L away, and more through balls from the defenders(suggestion by wwfan).

Beside this, the stats are about the same as before, with exeption of the crossings that just keeps going down. I know that wwfan suggested less CF, and could be one reason.

Im gonna list all my tactics here(version 3), so any suggestions based on old theories are welcomed, because since I started testing on Sunday Ive only slept 10 hours. Thank you SI

Things that Im not gonna change is the pairing up of D-L and DC CD, since this works very well. Playing high line at home, and deep away also works, so that one will not be changed either. All other things are up for discussion

Home vs 4-3-2-2-1

Defensive Line: 14

Width: 14

Tempo: 4

Time-wasting: 6

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 15 7 5 6 MIX OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Central Defenders 13 4 7 6 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 17 9 3 6 OFT MIX MIX MIX RAR NO

Midfielder 19 9 1 6 MIX OFT MIX MIX RAR NO

Wingers 17 9 3 6 OFT OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 19 10 1 6 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

</pre>

Home vs Defensive tactics

Defensive Line: 8

Width: 12

Tempo: 8

Time-wasting: 8

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 13 7 7 8 MIX RAR RAR MIX OFT NO

Central Defenders 11 4 9 12 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 15 9 5 14 OFT RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 17 9 3 14 MIX OFT MIX MIX RAR NO

Wingers 15 9 5 8 OFT OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 17 10 3 14 MIX MIX RAR OFT RAR NO

</pre>

Home vs normal tactics

Defensive Line: 10

Width: 10

Tempo: 10

Time-wasting: 10

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 11 7 9 10 MIX RAR RAR MIX MIX NO

Central Defenders 9 4 11 10 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 13 9 7 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 15 9 5 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 13 9 7 10 MIX OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 15 10 5 14 MIX MIX RAR OFT RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs normal tactics

Defensive Line: 12

Width: 8

Tempo: 12

Time-wasting: 12

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 9 7 11 12 MIX RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 7 4 13 8 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 11 9 9 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 13 9 7 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 11 9 9 12 MIX OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 13 10 7 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs attacking tactics

Defensive Line: 14

Width: 6

Tempo: 14

Time-wasting: 14

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 7 7 13 14 MIX RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 5 4 15 6 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 9 9 11 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 11 9 9 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 9 9 11 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 13 10 7 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs ultra-attacking tactics

Defensive Line: 17

Width: 3

Tempo: 16

Time-wasting: 17

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 5 7 15 17 RAR RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 3 4 17 3 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 7 9 13 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 9 9 11 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 7 9 13 17 OFT OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 9 10 11 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

Things to notice

<LI> Mentality is highly experimental, but linked with passing. This link was valid in FM06, and still works well.

<LI> Closing down for central defenders is linked with D-L and works very well

<LI> Closing down for fullbacks is linked to Width, and seems to work quite good. One problem can be when playing very narrow, since the fullbacks then close down in the middle and not only on the flanks

<LI> Radius theory still seems to be valid(i.e. fullback as mentioned above

<LI> Creative Freedom is something I just play around with at the moment, can be reason for low possession and low crossings

[ntfc]

Some great tests there SS, hopefully some of these results i can translate into my game.

[wwfan]

Great work, supersaint.

I now have a computer (sorry ntfc, but it's a Mac!) so am ready to join in with the empirical stuff. I have also read the manual and have a few observations to make, but they can wait until Monday when I have had the time to test a few things.

Finally, I am trying to get Sir Bobby back on board. Another great tactical mind will be appreciated, as long as he doesn't pimp his new WHU 4-4-2 '07 here

[ntfc]

I'm sure you will enjoy your mac

Persuading Sir Bobby to return would be like prising a rib away from a black men. Drink + Hot girls+ Uni Parties = HEAVEN. Although I'm sure FM and SIgames could be added to the equation.

[Guest]

Things that Im not gonna change is the pairing up of D-L and DC CD, since this works very well. Playing high line at home, and deep away also works, so that one will not be changed either

Hi Supersaints Im a little confused with this what you said as when looking at your tactics you are using a deep line at home and a high line away. Please can you confirm which are you actually using please.

Regarding your theorys let me show you the rest of my results with Bristol City during seasaon 1 as I really feel that there is a solid formation here but it needs some work regarding attack.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">H Yeovil W 1-0 54% SH 8 OT 3, SH 15 OT 7</pre>

[supersaint]

Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Things that Im not gonna change is the pairing up of D-L and DC CD, since this works very well. Playing high line at home, and deep away also works, so that one will not be changed either

Hi Supersaints Im a little confused with this what you said as when looking at your tactics you are using a deep line at home and a high line away. Please can you confirm which are you actually using please.

Regarding your theorys let me show you the rest of my results with Bristol City during seasaon 1 as I really feel that there is a solid formation here but it needs some work regarding attack.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">H Yeovil W 1-0 54% SH 8 OT 3, SH 15 OT 7</pre> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Geez, thats for typing when your brain is out of function. I have somehow managed to write the D-L from the old setting(version 2), into the version 3 excel sheet. And I didnt notice that before you mentioned it. So the DL and CD for DCs should be the opposite.

I probably just forgot to change it when using copy and paste All other values are the correct ones.

I agree that the 6-tactic suit is a bit defensive, but as you say its just about tweaking it a little more.

[Guest]

I was not sure how to use the code so now I know I will continue....

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> H Bradford L 1-0 49% SH 5 OT 1, SH 6 OT2

H Oldham W 1-0 48% SH 8 OT 3, SH 8 OT 4 I used a new revised attacking tactic here

A Chesterfield W 6-0 53% SH 14 OT 9, SH 10 OT 4 Here I used a new version of the away tactic

A Carlisle W 4-1 54% SH 13 OT 7, SH 6 OT 1 As Above

H Port Vale W 2-1 52% SH 13 OT 5, SH 3 OT 1 Same tactic vs Oldham

A Notts Forest W 2-1 51% SH 6 OT 3, SH 9 OT 4 Same vs Carlisle

A Gillingham L 3-0 49% SH 3 OT 2, SH 10 OT 6 Same as above

</pre>

So after losing further games to Cheltenham A 3-1, A Walsall 3-1, A Swansea 1-0, H Brighton 1-1 & A Doncaster 4-2 I decided that it was time to revert back to your 2 formations of Home vs Normal and Away vs Normal and used that as my bench mark and then it produced the following results.....

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> H Rotherham W 1-0 51% SH 10 OT 3, SH 5 OT 2

H Bristol Rvs W 1-0 52% SH 9 OT 2, SH 5 OT 4 vs Defensive FA Cup 1st Rnd

H Blackpool W 2-1 44% SH 9 OT 6, SH 6 OT 2

A Tranmere W 1-0 51% SH 10 OT 2, SH 10 OT 2

H Darlington W 2-0 49% SH 11 OT 4, SH 1 OT 0 vs Defensive FA Cup 2nd Rnd

A Brentford D 1-1 49% SH 16 OT 7, SH 13 OT 2

H Huddersfield W 2-0 51% SH 8 OT 4, SH 6 OT 4 vs Defensive

A Millwall L 3-2 49% SH 5 OT 3, SH 17 OT 8

A Crewe W 3-1 50% SH 17 OT 5, SH 6 OT 1 </pre>

Well as you can see that since reverting back to your 2 tactics there has been a dramatic improvement (apart from the Millwall game)

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> PL W D L F A

10 8 1 1 16 6</pre>

OK so lets move on now and take a look at the 3 tactics in question.......

Home Flat 442 vs Normal

Mentality: RoT

Mentality: 13 (Attacking)

Defensive Line: 8

Tempo: 8

Time Wasting: 8

Width: 12

Creative Freedom: 12

Closing Down: 12

Passing: 11 (Mixed dead middle)

Passing: Mixed

Zonal Marking: yes

Counter Attack: No

Farrows: Short Wingers

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Position Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB

Full backs 10 5 TM TM MIX MIX MIX MIX OFT Deep

Centre Backs 6 5 TM TM RAR RAR MIX MIX RAR

Mc Defensive 8 7 TM TM MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR

Mc Attacking 16 7 TM TM OFT RAR MIX OFT MIX

Wingers 12 7 TM TM MIX MIX MIX MIX OFT

Target Man 14 7 TM 20 MIX RAR RAR MIX MIX Hold Up Ball

Striker 18 7 TM 20 OFT MIX RAR MIX MIX</pre>

Home Flat 442 vs Defensive

Mentality: RoT

Mentality: 13 (Attacking)

Defensive Line: 6

Tempo: 6

Time Wasting: 6

Width: 14

Creative Freedom: 12

Closing Down: 14

Passing: 11 (Mixed dead middle)

Passing: Mixed

Zonal Marking: yes

Counter Attack: No

Farrows:Long Wingers, Short to AMC for Attacking Mc

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Position Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB

Full backs 10 5 TM TM OFT MIX MIX MIX OFT Deep

Centre Backs 6 5 TM TM RAR RAR MIX MIX RAR

Mc Defensive 8 7 TM TM MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR

Mc Attacking 16 9 TM TM OFT RAR MIX OFT MIX

Wingers 12 7 TM TM OFT MIX MIX MIX OFT

Target Man 14 7 TM 20 MIX RAR RAR MIX MIX Hold Up Ball

Striker 18 7 TM 20 OFT MIX RAR MIX MIX</pre>

Away Flat 442 vs Normal

Mentality: RoT

Mentality: 10 (Attacking)

Defensive Line: 12

Tempo: 12

Time Wasting: 12

Width: 8

Creative Freedom: 8

Closing Down: 8

Passing: 11 (Mixed dead middle)

Passing: Mixed

Zonal Marking: yes

Counter Attack: yes

Farrows: Short Wingers

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Position Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB

Full backs 10 TM TM TM MIX RAR MIX MIX OFT Deep

Centre Backs 6 TM TM TM RAR RAR MIX MIX RAR

Mc Defensive 8 TM TM 10 RAR RAR RAR MIX MIX

Mc Attacking 16 TM TM 14 MIX RAR MIX OFT MIX

Wingers 12 TM TM 12 OFT MIX MIX MIX OFT

Target Man 14 TM TM 16 MIX RAR RAR MIX MIX Hold Up Ball

Striker 18 TM TM 18 OFT MIX RAR MIX MIX</pre>

So it seems as if these tacics are quite solid defensively but I am looking for help as to how I can tweak these formations to make them a slightly more attacking (especially at home).

This is the first time that I have tried to use the Coding so please if it goes tits up and somebody knows how to do it properly please can you repost it for me.

[Guest]

@Supersaint

Regarding the D line when playing away vs a very attacking side you have it set at 17 but surely this is suicidal when up against a fast strikeforce unless you have a very pacey defence as they will hit through balls for there strikers and wingers.

This is the very reason why im still confused and wondering how when you are wanting to play attacking football that you should use a Deep D line and when wanting to play Counter Atatcking that you have a high D Line as IRL sides that play Counter Attacking football generally sit back soaking up the pressure then hitting that killer ball.

[Bademesteren]

Nive work again supersaint, but i'm confused about the new D-L setings. Is it possible for you to edit your original post for the version 3?

I like having a tactic for different opposition tactics, but I need a home tactic against attacking opponents and an away tactic against defensive opponents.

[El Padre]

I've found that getting a good target man really makes RoT explosive, since so many goals come from quick high balls to a striker.

I signed Nazer Barazite from Arsenal, 6'4 19 jumping, 20 heading, he gets man of the match every game almost when set as a target man.

[Guest]

Originally posted by El Padre:

I've found that getting a good target man really makes RoT explosive, since so many goals come from quick high balls to a striker.

I signed Nazer Barazite from Arsenal, 6'4 19 jumping, 20 heading, he gets man of the match every game almost when set as a target man.

Are you selecting to tick Target Man? Also what settings are you using for the crossing option and have you got the Target Man set to Balls to Head?

I have 2 target men at Bristol City both standing at 6'5 with Jumping both 16 and heading 18 & 10 respectively.

Can I ask also what passing setup are you using.

[supersaint]

My apologies for the confusion I have brought on to you guys. Guess it gets that way when your brain is full of tactical stuff all the time and you have slept way too little for 5 nights

I have managed to mess up my excel sheet totally, so I had to go through every tactic to make sure that I could post the right settings.

Mainly it was the D-L for the home tactic against 4-3-2-1-1 and CD settings for DMC, MC and AC that was wrong.

Here are the corrected version 3 tactics.

Home vs 4-3-2-2-1

Defensive Line: 6

Width: 14

Tempo: 4

Time-wasting: 6

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 15 7 5 6 MIX OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Central Defenders 13 4 7 14 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 17 9 3 10 OFT MIX MIX MIX RAR NO

Midfielder 19 9 1 10 MIX OFT MIX MIX RAR NO

Wingers 17 9 3 6 OFT OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 19 10 1 10 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

</pre>

Home vs Defensive tactics

Defensive Line: 8

Width: 12

Tempo: 8

Time-wasting: 8

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 13 7 7 8 MIX RAR RAR MIX OFT NO

Central Defenders 11 4 9 12 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 15 9 5 12 OFT RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 17 9 3 12 MIX OFT MIX MIX RAR NO

Wingers 15 9 5 8 OFT OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 17 10 3 12 MIX MIX RAR OFT RAR NO

</pre>

Home vs normal tactics

Defensive Line: 10

Width: 10

Tempo: 10

Time-wasting: 10

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 11 7 9 10 MIX RAR RAR MIX MIX NO

Central Defenders 9 4 11 10 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 13 9 7 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 15 9 5 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 13 9 7 10 MIX OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 15 10 5 14 MIX MIX RAR OFT RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs normal tactics

Defensive Line: 12

Width: 8

Tempo: 12

Time-wasting: 12

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 9 7 11 12 MIX RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 7 4 13 8 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 11 9 9 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 13 9 7 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 11 9 9 12 MIX OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 13 10 7 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs attacking tactics

Defensive Line: 14

Width: 6

Tempo: 14

Time-wasting: 14

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 7 7 13 14 MIX RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 5 4 15 6 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 9 9 11 16 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 11 9 9 16 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 9 9 11 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 13 10 7 16 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs ultra-attacking tactics

Defensive Line: 16

Width: 3

Tempo: 16

Time-wasting: 17

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 5 7 15 17 RAR RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 3 4 17 4 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 7 9 13 18 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 9 9 11 18 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 7 9 13 17 OFT OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 9 10 11 18 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

@nonleague

I know what you mean. What you say is correct, but I am just experimenting to see what works within the game. And it doesnt seem to have much to say at all. Reason that I wanted to test out the deep line at home, was to see if it could lure the AI to go more forward, leaving room for quick counter-attacks against them. Playing high away then become an automatic choice.

I am gonna test out both of them, with no other changes to the tactic to see which one works best within the game. Thanks for the feedback

[supersaint]

Originally posted by Bademesteren:

I like having a tactic for different opposition tactics, but I need a home tactic against attacking opponents and an away tactic against defensive opponents.

The way I have been doing it, is to use the "away against normal" at home, and "home against normal" away. This works to a certain degree at least. Maybe something to look into in further testing

[Guest]

@ Supersaint

With the setup that you have with these tactics what sort of results are you getting? Im just curious to know as maybe I can try to work with similar settings.

I do have one question though that Im a bit unsure of and that is regarding Tempo and passing. Im thinking along the lines that high tempo means also playing more direct passing and lower tempo means playing more shorter passing?

Anybody have any suggestins regarding this as im thinking to maybe start with both of these settings being set identical. Also is it fair to say that if you are wanting to play a possession game (especially at home) that you would therefore need to play a slower tempo with shorter passing?

[Asmodeus]

I always tend to link my passing with tempo now.

Still trying to find a truly effective approach for lower league. Going to give the old Slider Apathy theories another run out.

[supersaint]

@nonleague

The results are much better than my squad is supposed to get, especially defensively. I almost made it to the EC with a squad that should have ended below middle.

My biggest concern is the lack of possession and goals. Even though the Shot accuracy and convertion rates are quite high, I dont get enough chances.

Regarding tempo and passing: With low tempo I have low passing, and with high tempo I got high passing - just like you say. As you can see for the percentages of version 3, this helped my passing % to go up and is now between 65 and 70.

So it migh be that you are right in your assumptions about setting tempo and passing equal - perhaps for midfield to begin with, as these are the "playmakers"?

[Beeno]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

I always tend to link my passing with tempo now.

Still trying to find a truly effective approach for lower league. Going to give the old Slider Apathy theories another run out.

Six Tactic System for LLM's

I manage a really awfull conference side and I'm cruising along in 1st place now.

I have found that the six tactic system just doesn't work away with a conference level defence and the "hit it and hope" tactics of the opposition. The defensive line is far too high and the players just aren't good enough to play the offside trap.

It is much more effective to fight fire with fire away and use your home tactics. If you find yourself really under the cosh then use the away tactics developed here, but use home defensive instructions.

Setting up set peices has greatly improved things too. The man mark/mark tall player works very well when defending set pieces. I personally put the two players with the best heading and jumping on "mark tall player" and leave both forwards up the pitch, this means the opposition will usualy leave three players back.

For attacking set peices, the settings suggested by my previous link work very well, regardless of how you might feel about the rest of that post, especially "disrupt wall". I wouldn't have too many players on "forward" as they tend to get in the way of each other, and often if an attacker is marked by two oppostion defenders the defenders get confused and neither of them gets the ball (ala England).

[supersaint]

Originally posted by Beeno:

Six Tactic System for LLM's

I manage a really awfull conference side and I'm cruising along in 1st place now.

I have found that the six tactic system just doesn't work away with a conference level defence and the "hit it and hope" tactics of the opposition. The defensive line is far too high and the players just aren't good enough to play the offside trap.

It is much more effective to fight fire with fire away and use your home tactics. If you find yourself really under the cosh then use the away tactics developed here, but use home defensive instructions.

I agree with you on this. I just played a friendly against Barnet, and had lots of problems in the beginning of the match due to the reasons you mention here. So I went on to use the Home Attack formation, and turned the game around without any problems.

[Beeno]

I almost forgot to mention the most obvious, but most important LLM tactic!

LOAN LOAN LOAN

If they won't come, KEEP TRYING MORE PLAYERS, it is the difference between promotion and mid table obscurity.

[jornada]

I'm sure I speak for pretty much everyone here when I say upload the damn tactics (pretty please!), SuperSaint!

[Beeno]

Don't be so lazy, they only take 15 mins to enter manually, and it's like taking notes, by doing it yourself you will gain a better understanding.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by jornada:

I'm sure I speak for pretty much everyone here when I say upload the damn tactics (pretty please!), SuperSaint!

Nope. Like Beeno said, people will gain better understanding of how things work if they have to read the stuff and set up the tactics themselves. Then they might also find out something that I (or others that are experimenting with the 6-tactics suite) havent discovered yet.

[Beeno]

Another thought....

In real life a squad will practice their match tactics for the upcoming game during that weeks training. Is there any evidence that switching to the tactics you intend to use for your next match ASAP makes any difference?

I always do just in case.