Appalling Match Engine

[Martyr1777]

Add to that the fact that the people working on new features, working on the ME's graphics and working on the ME itself are three distinct teams with different members with different skills. They can't all work on the Match Engine. Not only would we have a "too many cooks" scenario, but we'd also have people who aren't particularly good with that side of things working on it rather than working in an area that they are stronger.

As I said in the other thread... who's working on new features is going to depend on the feature itself... the ME team works on ME related items, the 3d team works on 3d related times, whoever is responsible for the transfer system is likely the team that worked on agents.

So if those groups are working on a new feature they aren't working on fixing things. It's silly to think there is 1 team that knows enough about all aspects of the game that they are the 'new feature' team, really.

As for the comments about management. I've seen one executive producer talk on the forums about his game and listen to those on the boards. One out of all the games out there and it was a REALLY refreshing. I know SEGA could care less... but if SI's -management- have the same passion as their devs then I suggest he/they come here personally and talk to us about their desired direction and such. Yeah it's stupidly rare so I don't at all expect it. But that would produce a lot of respect to someone like me.

Until then... any studio/producer that releases a game yearly has questionable management because , regardless of the fact people will buy it anyway, it's not a particularly consumer friendly marketing strategy to many people.

[Ackter]

If by "team" you mean "person" - SI are a lot smaller than you seem to think.

I reckon the reason Miles doesn't post anymore is simply the huge amount of trolling that turned up in the threads after him. He used to post a lot.

Paul C posts a lot if you look in the right places, and the others tend to pop up when they see a thread that appeals to them (unfortunately a lot less these days as the amount of good, involving threads compared to the amount of useless drivel is unfortunately getting less and less by the second).

This forum 5 years ago had devs everywhere because there was a lot more respect shown to them back then.

[Martyr1777]

If by "team" you mean "person" - SI are a lot smaller than you seem to think.

*sigh*

All the more reason they shouldn't waste time with new stuff. Limited resources, limited time, and if you're assumption is right... well there's no way 1 person can really create something new and have it be anything but shallow and half baked in the time they have. Development just takes far too much, especially when that 1 person has to be working on bug fixes as well. The best you are going to get is something half done and needs another year or more of work before it's where people would expect. So whats the point of new features when they don't benefit the game?

So freaking annoying... here's the word again, fanboys... You guys will buy and play the game regardless you have to think about what casual player as going to want.

Like I said, what is a casual player going to be happier with... agents that added all but nothing to the actual game and annoyed just as many people as liked them or the training update that, to my knowledge, not a single player thought it to be bad in any way but many loved it.

Freaking common damn sense.

[Ackter]

FM11 is the first version I've bought since FM2006

I'm a realist - I know how hard they work and how difficult it is to do what they do.

The casual player is the one who wants more features - you speak as a very hardcore user.

[Cougar2010]

I don't know what your problem is Martyr but you are doing a really good job of alienating yourself from the community.

You don't seem interested in having a constructive discussion while your lack of knowledge about SI/FM also seems to be hampering some of your points which is making some of your posts look fairly ludicrous.

[Martyr1777]

I don't know what your problem is Martyr but you are doing a really good job of alienating yourself from the community.

You don't seem interested in having a constructive discussion while your lack of knowledge about SI/FM also seems to be hampering some of your points which is making some of your posts look fairly ludicrous.

lol... first I'm not here to make friends with anyone. I typed up a nice long thing but it's a waste of time.

All I've ever done is give straight up honest feedback as unbiased as I can be... and again I have supported areas I feel don't have areas so don't even try and say I'm not at least trying to be fair. But I've yet to see anything from Ackter backing up what he's said, Cougar you bailed on the discussion who knows why. Then you tell me I'm so off base on everything...

Then prove me wrong.

[Ackter]

It's not like I can take you on a tour of SI Towers is it?

How do you expect me to back it up?

[Cougar2010]

lol... first I'm not here to make friends with anyone. I typed up a nice long thing but it's a waste of time.

All I've ever done is give straight up honest feedback as unbiased as I can be... and again I have supported areas I feel don't have areas so don't even try and say I'm not at least trying to be fair. But I've yet to see anything from Ackter backing up what he's said, Cougar you bailed on the discussion who knows why. Then you tell me I'm so off base on everything...

Then prove me wrong.

I bailed because I had jobs to do both at work & home.

I returned, caught up with the thread and came to the conclusion I was wasting my time trying to have a constructive discussion

You raised some issues that could have led to a good discussion which would have benefited everyone but this has been overshadowed by your attitude towards other users. You've then gone off on a tangent making some really odd comments about other areas of SI/FM.

[Martyr1777]

It's not like I can take you on a tour of SI Towers is it?

How do you expect me to back it up?

*sigh*

Well saying more then a hand full of sentences tends to help... explaining why you are saying certain things and the like as well.

But look at it this way. You say the guys working on the ME and guys working on new features are completely different. I say the group working on a new feature is going to depend more on the area the feature is tied to. You tell me group? SI is smaller then that, try single person. So I say, if you're right then time and resources are even more limited and they are never going to be able to honestly flesh out anything new and it have a completed feel.

Then Cougar tells me I'm absolutely clueless about SI and their works... Well one of the things that was said has to be at least semi accurate. Either they have teams working on things or they have just one or 2 guys working on some areas. Which is it? Does Cougar bother to tell me how I'm so utterly and completely wrong, Do you tell him how I'm wrong? You just say something else.

Look back in this thread.. so far I'm the only one of all of you who's said, 'Oh my bad I'm wrong and you are very much right.' I said that specifically to Cougar about one of my ME examples. So its not like I'm just arguing for the sake of it, I'll admit when I'm wrong but you can't just tell me I'm wrong and not explain why.

So whats the deal guys? How and why am I completely wrong on everything and you guys are right? I'm the one explaining my reasoning, but instead of even picking apart that reasoning you guys just say,'nope you're dead wrong.' Yeah and I'm the one not having a constructive conversation. This is why I get annoyed and am more harsh and abrasive then you guys.

[Martyr1777]

I bailed because I had jobs to do both at work & home.

I returned, caught up with the thread and came to the conclusion I was wasting my time trying to have a constructive discussion

You raised some issues that could have led to a good discussion which would have benefited everyone but this has been overshadowed by your attitude towards other users. You've then gone off on a tangent making some really odd comments about other areas of SI/FM.

And were there not a number of posts where I was completely civil and even apologized for the behavior you thought was so bad...

But then it comes back to I'm just wrong and you guys are avoiding that discussion. Look Cougar you are about the only one I can relax with and discuss calmly with (edit: well you and milner). You honestly think things can help the game then bring up whatever points you thought were interesting and lets discuss them. If I do or say anything to grate on you then you can stop it right there.

But if I'm engaged in a good solid conversation about things and the person(s) I'm talking to explain their reasoning then I have no problem with it... But honestly Ackter hasn't given me that feel and has just gotten on my nerves dancing around whatever subject.. how do you think it traveled from the ME issues all the way to just the business. I been responding to him.

But like I said, you want to have a true honest civil discussion... try me, I'll give you that and more. But your only comments so far to day is just I'm totally out of it with no reasoning behind it.

[Ackter]

They have the Football Manager team with each member taking charge of certain parts of the game, with a little overlapping when needed.

I don't see why I need to give "reasons" behind what I've been posting recently in here - I'm just passing on the info of how SI work, and some other info where the actual figures (such as exact sales numbers) are not made public.

[Martyr1777]

They have the Football Manager team with each member taking charge of certain parts of the game, with a little overlapping when needed.

I don't see why I need to give "reasons" behind what I've been posting recently in here - I'm just passing on the info of how SI work, and some other info where the actual figures (such as exact sales numbers) are not made public.

You give reasons because its the internet and half the people on the net are full of it to be honest. Besides you don't just say something in a discussion without some reasoning or its like saying 'it's this way just because it is and there's nothing to it'. That's not a discussion, that's 'I'm right and there's nothing to say about it'.

Besides, for all I know you don't know jack about how SI work, you aren't even a mod. Put 2 and 2 together man.. just because you say something doesn't mean anything to me or anyone else that doesn't know you. Maybe you are an SI employee with a, for lack of a better term, 'undercover' account. How the hell am I supposed to know anything you say has any legitimacy at all without some form of explanation or reasoning why you are saying things.

See what I mean?

[Ackter]

Worked at SI for 6 months, have been on their Beta team for 4 years and worked at Sega for 3.

How's that?

[Cougar2010]

Ok, I'll try and help you understand.

As I understand it CM used to be one big, long code which made working on it difficult as there was a limit on how many could work on it at once.

When SI signed up with Sega and CM became FM they split the code up into sections/modules that could be plugged in and out of the overall game. This meant people could work on different modules at the same time (I presume there is a limit on how many can work on a individual module at a time) & it meant some modules could be rewritten/upgraded from one release to another without having to rewrite the whole game.

You also made random comments about Sega and how the management don't understand how things work or what we want. Well PaulC is still the main guy behind the ME as he has been since day 1 along with his brother, I'm sure they are familiar with it and they still take part in constructive discussions on the forums which is more than what you see from other developers.

[Ackter]

The module split happened with CM4 - before Sega bought them.

Ov Collyer took a break from SI and came up with FML - he isn't involved with the match engine.

[milnerpoint]

As for Milners FiFA sales comments... PC Gamer reported FM being the top seller in the UK and FIFA (not FIFAMan) being the second top seller. I really doubt FIFA is going to be more popular then that in the USA, again most people in the US view it as a lesser sport.

FIFA will out sell FM by miles, the consol sales alone will dwarf the FM sales, if FIFA was second to FM in the PC charts then think about how many Xbox and PS3 copies they have sold ontop, in Britian FIFA will easily out sell FM.

As expected this thread has turned into a pointless argument over how SI run their company.

[shwan]

@ shwan

for No 1 you have an option in your tactics to drill or float crosses as opposed to a mixed option. Drill crosses is what you are looking for.

thanks mate ..

i thought it has to do with distance the difference between float and drill

why they didn't said low and high?

[Ackter]

thanks mate ..

i thought it has to do with distance the difference between float and drill

why they didn't said low and high?

Because it is distance, not height.

Float = far post

Drill = near post

[Martyr1777]

Ok, I'll try and help you understand.

As I understand it CM used to be one big, long code which made working on it difficult as there was a limit on how many could work on it at once.

When SI signed up with Sega and CM became FM they split the code up into sections/modules that could be plugged in and out of the overall game. This meant people could work on different modules at the same time (I presume there is a limit on how many can work on a individual module at a time) & it meant some modules could be rewritten/upgraded from one release to another without having to rewrite the whole game.

You also made random comments about Sega and how the management don't understand how things work or what we want. Well PaulC is still the main guy behind the ME as he has been since day 1 along with his brother, I'm sure they are familiar with it and they still take part in constructive discussions on the forums which is more than what you see from other developers.

ok... I fail to see you point to be honest. First I already knew about the modular design it was talked about in another thread a while back. How does that change anything though? Yeah I never said they couldn't work on anything specific without having to rewrite the game. I did say many other things, but I'd say the most notable was along the lines of...

FM11's release came with a mix bag of feedback regarding agents and match prep, both new aspects of a more individual nature, 'new features' and were used to promote the game. On the other hand the changes to the training system, to my knowledge, have had no negative feedback. So that sounds like updating an existing item was more pleasing to the vocal customers as a whole then things like agents. So with that in mind I fail to see how not adding new features would honestly alienate any of the customer base as long as good, and notable, improvements were made in some areas.

As for just being able to work on different modules... that's great, but devs always have the areas they focus on, it's rare that any one person has enough in-depth knowledge of all aspects of the code that they can work on any part of it. So yeah, different people or groups work on different areas... and again. If the guess that the guy(s) that did agents are tried to the transfer system (just assuming since transfers and contracts seem to go hand in hand) then it just seems sensible to me that the time spent on agents would have been better spent on the transfer AI. Because 11.1 agents and the transfer system both were a couple of the bigger complaints.

So it's good it modular, not particularly shocking and I do understand the concepts, I've just been trying to say it would seem that based on known reactions the new features took attention away from better things and turned out questionable. But hey, that's just my opinion.

As for the SEGA things... I'll say I'm sorry for going off on that tangent, We got completely off the point and that's one area I'm very biased because I despise SEGA. Every game franchise I've liked has gone from games I enjoy to games I highly regret buying and won't buy again. I honestly can't say it's due to SEGA, but I'm not a big fan of how producers handle studios they acquire. EA and SEGA are the most notable and sadly the biggest.

Not sure why you brought up PaulC but yeah I've seen him, Brock and a hand full of others posting and that's nice to a point. They still play things very close to the vest however which is disappointing but not unexpected.

But anyway.. lets but all that business ugliness behind us.

Honestly try me with what ever thoughts you had that thought could develop into a good discussion to help the game. That's the only reason I bother coming here because I want to see FM get better.

[Martyr1777]

FIFA will out sell FM by miles, the consol sales alone will dwarf the FM sales, if FIFA was second to FM in the PC charts then think about how many Xbox and PS3 copies they have sold ontop, in Britian FIFA will easily out sell FM.

As expected this thread has turned into a pointless argument over how SI run their company.

Well you can't fairly count console sales against a game that doesn't have a console version. Or does FM have a console version I'm not aware of?

So lets set it right... Cougar said he had some thoughts that could create good discussion... help me get him to spit it out. You both being supporters and all.

[Ackter]

Every new feature gets a mixed bag - as do most changes to existing features (there's threads complaining about the regen changes every year, for example).

The guy that does the match engine spends all year working on the match engine - he doesn't work on anything else (Paul C was brought up because this is his job). Despite that, you still end up with hundreds of threads each year about the match engine being "rubbish".

[Ackter]

Well you can't fairly count console sales against a game that doesn't have a console version. Or does FM have a console version I'm not aware of?

If FIFA was only available on PC it would dwarf FM's sales.

[Cougar2010]

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about Martyr:

You gave an example of where you thought the ME was buggy/could be improved:

This one's easy.. the CB doesn't even run towards the ball, nor really close the man down once he has the ball... not to mention that striker that scored had a mighty 10 pace, anyone could have out run him to that ball.

I interpreted the clip and gave my opinion:

Please don't just mention single attributes, so many more go into the calculation, anticipation, determination, fitness levels etc etc.

This is a difficult one TBH and I have seen things like this happen in real life. The ball is between three players GK, DL? & DCR? and it looks like both defenders expect the keeper to come and collect but he just stays back (maybe his orders? or tendency). The ball also seems to slow down a lot - heavy/wet pitch? raining?

What you need to remember though are the players aren't reacting to what is happening on the pitch the graphics are simply picking the "best fit" animations to show what the ME has calculated - Which in this case is that a goal was scored on the break I'm presuming.

Now what SI can do is refine & improve the graphics so that that sequence looks a little better than it currently is but remember that wouldn't alter the outcome at all.

This was your reply which basically dismissed my comments:

5: Please dude... There is absolutely no common sense reason why that CB shouldn't have run with the striker he was already covering and if he did run on the ball the only attributes that would matter would have been pace and accel, again that striker is slow as tar. But regardless, the CB falls back to protect the goal because the AI knows it's a dangerous play, if he expected the others to collect the ball he wouldn't have run back at all right? Course not, but the threat was registered... yet the AI choked and ran straight back instead of the common sense move to the ball.

My reply was short as you had dismissed my earlier comments:

No pace & acceleration would not be the only attributes as I've explained in my prior post. I'm not going to repeat myself, its clear the sequence could be improved but in general its a fairly minor problem IMO.

and this was what you replied with:

Well if the AI worked right an went after the ball then -most likely- those are the only two that matter... I mean when was the last time you saw a CB with a lower condition then a striker, sure it's possible but extremely rare. But now instead of being something tactical it's a minor issue... well since it doesn't happen all the time that particular instance is indeed minor.. but it part of an over all much larger issue, poor AI in the ME. Nice spin attempted, but didn't work.

At this point I didn't feel it was worth my while responding as you had shown little interest in debating a clip that would have gained a range of opinions had the discussion developed.

Personally I stand by my initially interpretation - I believe it was a good pass on the break which fell between three players and all three initially expected one of the others to go and claim it. The striker spotted the opportunity this created and reacted first to the pass getting to the ball first. I don't have an issue with the sequence in general but it could be tweaked to make it look better - In particular the DCR, was his movement realistic? What about if he thought the GK was going to get the ball?

[grade]

My only beef with the ME, it takes a long time to pass through match plays, as it focus on unimportant stuff. I want highlights, real highlights of the match. Not player A is getting the ball that to mark a freekick or the ball went out of line a mark a goal kick. I want actual game plays of real dangers, goals or the nasty faults for cards or the first warnings of the referee that gives the game, much like previously FM09 showed up.

Also I feel more and more the player's stats have becoming useless with this exaggeration in morale stuff. I think that if player stats sucks, no matter how high his morale is, he still sucks a football player.

I hope I contribute to make the thread interesting again.

[shwan]

For a hugely niche market, the sales they get from it are extraordinary. It's an exceptionally popular game which gets more popular with each release.

You need to realise that they must do both. They have to improve and they have to add new features. It can't be just one of them.

Hardcore fans are also the most likely to complain about new features being added.

don't get what hardcore manager is?

who represent them?

long time loyal FM fans? or people playing for long hours daily? or people like me who watch full match & take a day thinking about tactics for next game? or people who know and enjoy game depth in area like transfers, AI ..etc. ?..etc.

let us admit hard core users is a large section of mixed people, and they can't be all represented in one sentences nor have same taste or priorities

They're a business - they will always be looking to attract new users.

More people buy FM with each version - whatever SI are doing, they're doing it right.

I'd personally love a minimum-new-features release, but I'm a realist and it won't happen.

that is correct but still feel even old users will not be all happy with just a refurbishment of old game

Drill = near post

Float = far post

That's all it means.

this is what i thought !! it has to do with distance far or short !!

happy I was not wrong on that !! cheers

As for Milners FiFA sales comments... PC Gamer reported FM being the top seller in the UK and FIFA (not FIFAMan) being the second top seller. I really doubt FIFA is going to be more popular then that in the USA, again most people in the US view it as a lesser sport.

.

actually in many countries in Europe, FIFA MANAGER do sell better than FM.

i know they were top1 in Germany and i think top2 in Spain for example according to FIFAM site

yes FM outsell FIFA PC wise, but FIFA Xbox or FIFA PS outsell FM, remember FIFA is more a console type of games.

[Ackter]

I'd class a hardcore user as someone who actually pays attention to what's going on in the game.

[shwan]

What to remember is your counter attacking formation could have been too effective in previous versions and could have been exploiting a weakness in the ME.

may be is more correct now .. you could be right

[shwan]

I'd class a hardcore user as someone who actually pays attention to what's going on in the game.

kind general tbh

i doubt people using FM or even choosing FM are playing it for fun

there are more easier lightweight games to pick if they don't pay attention to details tbh

they picked FM for that i think

[shwan]

My only beef with the ME, it takes a long time to pass through match plays, as it focus on unimportant stuff. I want highlights, real highlights of the match. Not player A is getting the ball that to mark a freekick or the ball went out of line a mark a goal kick. I want actual game plays of real dangers, goals or the nasty faults for cards or the first warnings of the referee that gives the game, much like previously FM09 showed up.

Also I feel more and more the player's stats have becoming useless with this exaggeration in morale stuff. I think that if player stats sucks, no matter how high his morale is, he still sucks a football player.

I hope I contribute to make the thread interesting again.

agree on moral..

worst as moral itself need tunning

managing crystal palace, to fight against relegation, but sitting at 8th position and near playoff, yet even when draw away or home facing very strong side, moral drop !! lost away 1-0 to top of league, moral dropped sharply !!

shouldn't they be happy that they were doing better than expected and fighting toe to toe with top clubs ?

[milnerpoint]

Well you can't fairly count console sales against a game that doesn't have a console version. Or does FM have a console version I'm not aware of?

So lets set it right... Cougar said he had some thoughts that could create good discussion... help me get him to spit it out. You both being supporters and all.

again you missed the point, FIFA is a massive game compared to FM, on any platform, they all use the same engine, if after 15 years EA still cannot get a good ME with all their resources, and all their sales, then it shows how difficult it is to do.

Anyway i am willing to bet the one year FM was sold on both PC and Xbox that FIFA still outsold it, easily.

[Ackter]

To be fair, EA's priority has never been realism of their games.

Hell, if you went for a testing job interview with EA they'd show you a picture of a game and ask you to spot the bug.

If you go for a job interview anywhere else you play the game and try and find bugs.

Should give you an idea of what EA put first.

[CaptainPlanet]

Admiring your patience here Ackter :golfclap:

[Martyr1777]

Personally I stand by my initially interpretation - I believe it was a good pass on the break which fell between three players and all three initially expected one of the others to go and claim it. The striker spotted the opportunity this created and reacted first to the pass getting to the ball first. I don't have an issue with the sequence in general but it could be tweaked to make it look better - In particular the DCR, was his movement realistic? What about if he thought the GK was going to get the ball?

Ok fair enough.. that was the one I was most dismissive of but there was reason to it... the only reason I cept on about the pace and accel was because to me it makes no sense for the defenders to run to the ball. so I'll respond and be as civil as possible this time.

Ok so assuming it was a good pass for the striker to run onto... It lands between the CB fullback and keeper, and at this point is where you're theory comes in. The mental and communication of the 3 players made them all choke and now know what to do.

Now here's where I fail to see that as the case... First the full back did run straight back to his goal at full speed, so there was obviously a threat detected. The fullback ran back as well but was just too far up field and didn't register the threat fast enough to get any where near close. The keeper stopped at the edge of the area and wasn't brave enough to go out a clear the ball. Now I will agree there is nothing wrong at all with how the fullback and keeper reacted, especially under your theory it makes sense.

Now where we part ways is on the CB... ok so he started back to his goal so he registered a threat and moved to defend it. Had he expected the keeper to come out and get the ball I don't see him acting in that fashion. But regardless, if the CB is going to run back either way, why not run back to the ball? It's not like the ball was at the corner flag so it's smart to cover the middle in front of the net. He wasn't any farther from the ball then the striker, he was in fact closer. Miscommunication or not, he ran back anyway, common sense would say you run to the ball either way just in case. If the CB had responded in that way I'm positive he would have claimed the ball, back passed to his keeper and cleared the threat. It's a very simple play and one you'd expect to see of professionals. I mean I know the MLS isn't too highly held in the world view but they aren't THAT bad lol. On the not that maybe it was represented poorly, just needs a little tweaking...

As I said before. if what we are seeing isn't accurate then whats the point of us watching matches. We might as well just make player decisions based on attributes and prior stats. Or fine that's probably all the game looks at itself anyway so all that really matters. But it just kills all the fun to not sit and watch a match and say 'hmm, that guys really not performing how I'd expect' or 'Wow, he's a nice little diamond in the rough'. Point being you combine the variety of examples and the whole point to watching these representations, and it goes from being a minor tweak to a fairly considerable amount of work to make all the tweaks needs so when we see something we don't have to ask ourselves, 'was that legit or just a 'minor' bug'.

That make sense to you?

[Martyr1777]

again you missed the point, FIFA is a massive game compared to FM, on any platform, they all use the same engine, if after 15 years EA still cannot get a good ME with all their resources, and all their sales, then it shows how difficult it is to do.

Anyway i am willing to bet the one year FM was sold on both PC and Xbox that FIFA still outsold it, easily.

ok ok.. sorry I didn't miss the point I'm just trying to get away from all the business talk because it doesn't lead anywhere.

But yeah FIFA is going to always out sell FM because FM is a slow cerebral game and FIFA caters to a completely different type of gamer. I've mentioned this before because it just strikes me as so stupid... but Madden's newest version their TV spot actually boadted that a new selling point is the players don't have to select the plays in the game the AI will do it automatically. So they take one of the few parts that take some real thought and 'look you don't have to deal with it any more, yay!'.

Just silly, dumbing down games is a good thing. joy.

[Ackter]

Step 3. Ignore posts from users that you can't deal with

[shwan]

To be fair, EA's priority has never been realism of their games.

Hell, if you went for a testing job interview with EA they'd show you a picture of a game and ask you to spot the bug.

If you go for a job interview anywhere else you play the game and try and find bugs.

Should give you an idea of what EA put first.

he he kind harsh though

EA is so big.. not all games are done in EA house, some games are totally done in a third party company

just because they care about graphic standard of their games that doesn't mean they don't care about details

[Ackter]

That's an actual story from an actual interview I had with them ffs

[shwan]

he he hope it was not an interview for the Sims

which game was it by the way?

but still stand to my point tbh. EA managed to make FIFA win the battle against PES, it took them a while but they managed to reverse the balance

[Ackter]

FIFA Manager :o (Hey, I was out of work at the time, needed to do something).

After the shambles of their interview I turned them down though. Didn't feel right.

I also blame PES for slipping up rather than FIFA winning - PES made some major mistakes in the last few versions.

[Svenc]

actually in many countries in Europe, FIFA MANAGER do sell better than FM.

i know they were top1 in Germany and i think top2 in Spain for example according to FIFAM site

"Many countries" is making things look much brighter for Bright Future as it is. What they don't mention is that the release in Italy was canned due to sales expectations not being met - and that the mammoth share of their sales comes from German speaking territories, Germany itself in particular, where the game is being developed and touted by the press to be the premium product in EA's roster it has never once been. Germany is also a country in which Football Manager doesn't even see a release proper in parts due to the licensing situation and where it has to deal with the lack of press and public exposure that goes with it - and also with Sports Interactive's reputation, which before Football Manager had been tarnished by poorly written articles and ill-conceived public coverage for years. That has changed- the little coverage there is now is much better than it used to be. In Germany, FM is often still regarded as an also-ran, the little step brother of the real deal, in parts because knowledge about the game is either limited or based on prejudices, and I know what I'm talking about since I didn't really give it a shot until FM 2008 - and like many who have tried have never looked back. Regardless, the FM community in Germany is small, but it's been growing.

Take a look at Bright Future's forums, there are ten times as many people registered on here - sure, it's not a small series, but indeed Football Manager is the multiple times more popular game. Internationally, multiple big gaming outlets have yet to run a review of the current iteration, whereas FM was being covered by anyone quickly.

[Bruce Drundrige]

2D Classic > everything else!

Yeah that's what I would say as well. I've tried the 3D view but I'm just so used to the top down view that lets me see the tactics/positions unfolding. Must give 3D another try sometime though

[serek]

When are you planning to improve the match engine that is horrifically old and behind the current times? I mean with all todays technology that's the best you can come up with? Unrealistic movement, unrealistic play, unrealistic graphics, unrealistic matches. It's becoming beyond a joke really. What you class a clear cut chance has to be a tap in, becuase in every game each team will have about 5 chances that you see once or twice in a real game. You know top strikers would score them for fun as well. There's a ridiculous amount of Striker v Goalkeeper one on ones in the game and more often than not they are missed. At first i thought this was becuase i was just playing game after game where as you get 1 or 2 games a week in real life, but if you sitback and take note of how many chances there are in each game it's riduclous. Sometimes you will see 1 clear chance for a team in real life. It's becoming ridiculous that almost every game you can have the better spell, more possesion, more shots, better passing, great defending and then all of a sudden they score with their first or second shot. this happens in real life how much? every now and then, not every other game. The amount of times i've taken a lead, and then gone on to miss abuot 3 open nets is amazing.

Graphically, how is FM so poor in the graphics quality? I play on all the high settings, my pc is powerful enough (looking at it an iphone should be powerful enough). How are the graphics so far behind every other game on the market that's to do with football. Heck even 'Rugby League 2' for the ps3 had better graphics 10 years ago. The players look nothing like anything in real life, and i dont mean in terms of fifa's graphics, i mean in skin tones and so forth. I saw yakubu being a half caste and James Vaughan being as pale as can be. Simple things like the nets moving, or a nice looking variety of stadiums make things go that extra bit better. The graphics are terrible, i mean how can FIFA (fair enough they mainly focus on the match) have amazing graphics, about 300 times better than FM. Please don't bring up a common myth that it's PC, it can't handle better graphics.. ofcourse it can, and it doesn't the latest graphics card and so forth to run FIFA on the pc. I've been a massive FM fan for years and it's a shame that this has been so poorly done and neglected for years.

The real question is when are you going to revamp or at least give MAJOR improvements teh match engine? it's ruining the game for me. The rest of the game is very complex and to a very good standard and it's the match engine (and the soudns to go with) that seem VERY lazily done and neglected. DO you plan to address anything to do with the match engine? Or just come out minor addition like "Players can see more around them" or something.

- Flamers not wanted, real opinions (including opposing ones) are more than welcome.

I don't mind the graphics, it's not what this game is about really, but I 100% agree with everything else. Well said. And for now I'm back to FM10 because it's actually more fun.

Dear SI, we're glad you're adding new stuff every year, but really, instead of a bunch of little gimmicks which most of players ignore or "leave to assistant", please do something about Match Engine. I believe making this part of game a focus for FM12 will make the game better than ever.

I'll wait and see, if all FM12 brings is "better interaction", which I ignore anyway and my assistant is doing that, I'm not gonna buy the game for the first time in years and just stick to FM10. Cheers.