Explanation of the Impact of Player...DISCUSSION THREAD *Updated for FM11*

[CaptainPlanet]

I was confused by:

So they will both reach their top speed (20 and 10) at the same time.

Which is saying in say 5 seconds two players with the same acceleration and different pace are running at different speeds.

[Cleon]

Ahh I didn't see that when I replied (skim reading doesn't really pay does it? ). No that's not true for the reasons stated above. Hope that helps. If not fire away again and I'll try and answer

[Kazza]

As always a stimulating read but it has raised some issues for me.

Reading your sticky: Explanation of the Impact of Player Attributes During Match Play *Updated for FM11* and thinking about the match analysis I have a number of questions.

You say that heat positioning and other aspects are not discussed, or not as keenly as other aspects of the game; that may be because some of us lack the knowledge to understand how that works and what can be done to rectify any anomalies in a players position and movement. I would say that the guide for this aspect of the game is flimsy. However, that in itself is not a problem if you can work through the mechanics of the game (I am not the best at this but I do try).

It would be good if it were easier to link the match analysis with training needs and other areas that may influence that aspect. Now training seems to be 50/50 with FM players. Half seem to leave it to the default settings and the other half play around trying to improve and adjust according to a number of factors, I play around. If there was, a direct link coupled with individual match instructions then that could certainly change the view of training in fm.

I may be off beam here but if the heat positioning shows that your right central midfielder is straying away from his role (though hard to tell unless a drastic out of position analysis highlights that), then what would be the answer. Would you train the individual re a set of ppms’, use a different training regime or indeed specific instructions to that player before a match?

You highlight a scenario thus: Average Position

“this is by far the most important one for me. It allows me to see if a player is set up positional as I'd like him to be. It also allows me to see if my defenders are too advanced, wide players too narrow.”

Given the example, how does the heat map show that re how do you interpret it? I have an idea but would like some more detailed explanation and as I said earlier what can you do about it?

Thanks and I hope the above makes sense!

[Cleon]

As always a stimulating read but it has raised some issues for me.

Cheers, I'll try my best to answer

Reading your sticky: Explanation of the Impact of Player Attributes During Match Play *Updated for FM11* and thinking about the match analysis I have a number of questions.

You say that heat positioning and other aspects are not discussed, or not as keenly as other aspects of the game; that may be because some of us lack the knowledge to understand how that works and what can be done to rectify any anomalies in a players position and movement. I would say that the guide for this aspect of the game is flimsy. However, that in itself is not a problem if you can work through the mechanics of the game (I am not the best at this but I do try).

I'll be going into great depths about this once I start detailing the tactic I'm using and show how I use this to fix things and find out certain things. I've not really touched on it yet I know, but I just wanted to make people aware that is existed.

It would be good if it were easier to link the match analysis with training needs and other areas that may influence that aspect. Now training seems to be 50/50 with FM players. Half seem to leave it to the default settings and the other half play around trying to improve and adjust according to a number of factors, I play around. If there was, a direct link coupled with individual match instructions then that could certainly change the view of training in fm.

I'm one of the believers who thinks training is total garbage and makes no difference to me by ignoring it. I'd love for it to have an impact on tactics though. Hopefully in one of the future versions (please be FM12) it will just do that and be linked more closely.

I may be off beam here but if the heat positioning shows that your right central midfielder is straying away from his role (though hard to tell unless a drastic out of position analysis highlights that), then what would be the answer. Would you train the individual re a set of ppms’, use a different training regime or indeed specific instructions to that player before a match?

You could try and learn him a PPM. But first I'd try and counter it by altering his individual instructions. Things like closing down and mentality to begin with. It'll be easier when I have an example from my own game to highlight the way I'd combat such issues. The thing is I'd have to take everything into account. Because it could be a case of his creative freedom forcing him out of position. He could be forced to move higher/lower up the pitch in search of the ball because he's too isolated. 99% of the time though it would be a tactical issue and not a ppm one.

Given the example, how does the heat map show that re how do you interpret it? I have an idea but would like some more detailed explanation and as I said earlier what can you do about it?

Thanks and I hope the above makes sense!

The dark pacthes on the heat map are the places he seems to be more often. The lighter colours are the places he will have been once/a few times. I'll be covering all the things mentioned above though. I just wanted people to be aware that they existed and maybe have a look at them. That way when I start talking about how I use the heat maps to show me if a player is positioned how I'd like him, it wont come as a big shock that heat maps are actually in the game lol.

I'll be starting the discussion about how the analysis is useful for tactics tomorrow. I'll be showing how I use it to fix things and find faults with a tactic that you might not see at first.

[Kazza]

Thanks for the prompt respone!

Look forward to a an educating read

[FM1000]

Wait until I post up the effect of player instructions, it starts getting complicated then;)

When will u do this?

[Cleon]

Once I start discussing the tactic it all fits together as everything is linked. So hopefully some bits will be up tomorrow/later today

[macca72]

Genuinely can't wait until you start to walk through the tactic (and more interestingly) the shouts / strategy elements of your work. If you we're to build a 4-2-3-1 formation, well happy, happy days !

Two elements stick out for me with this version for FM (the one's i've struggled with anyway) and that's the use of wide players, both attacking and defending. I'm sure that this is down to my poor execution of different strategies and shouts at different times, but will be really interesting to see how you address this.

Excellent work.

[Cleon]

I'm in pre season of season 2 now so I'm writing it all up as we speak. The formation I've gone for due to the player's I have is a 4-1-2-2-1. However it could easily be adapted to a 4-2-3-1. In fact I am hoping to have the player's to create an assymetric 4-2-3-1 of some kind by the start of season 3.

[Cleon]

I've started to add little bits to the thread so people can see what kind of player's I am buying. I'm trying to give a short explanation as to why I got them. That way It'll make it clearer and easier to understand the tactic side of things. I'll be adding to this all today but no sure what what kind of pace

[macca72]

Cleon, any news on when we might get to see more?. Appreciate you're busy, but you don't ask, you don't get

[Cleon]

I'm like 4 games from end of season 2 then I'm looking at adding it all up. So the full season 2 story will be up before Monday, possibly all today depends on the weather here

[SFraser]

I have been away for a while so it is good to see this thread continued and added to. It is a very deep thread written by people that obviously spend a lot of time watching the ME at work.

There are a couple of points I would like to make based on what I have been observing recently. They are not absolute nailed on fact points, they are opinions I am putting forward for discussion.

Determination and Workrate: I think these two attributes are the attacking and defensive variations of each other. I say this because highly Determined players do not seem to lack drive when attacking regardless of their level of Workrate. Likewise high Workrate players can seem to disappear from matches where you are attacking regularly and they lack Determination.

Indeed there are three "effort" based attributes as I see them:

1: Determination. How much drive a player has to advance an attacking position/move.

2: Workrate. How much effort a player will put in to rectify a defensive situation.

3: Teamwork. How hard a player will work to involve himself in team moves, or how much skill a player has in playing as a part in a "unit".

As I continue to watch 2-D full match replays it is becoming very obvious to me what the impact is of high or low teamwork, though I find it difficult to describe accurately. In a recent match my highly creative, high teamwork AMC received a pass with his back to goal and instantly played my striker through on goal with his first touch. Creativity was what enabled him to see the pass, but his Teamwork in this case seemed to magnify his Creativity as if he was waiting and ready for a teammate to make a run as the ball came to him. It was his "skill" in functioning as a part of the team unit. What was also very interesting was that my striker has 19 teamwork and made his run as my winger passed to my AMC. The winger played the ball into the AMC and that started a "team move" where my striker made a run and my AMC played him through on goal with his first touch.

If Creativity is the ability to spot a pass, then I would say Teamwork is the ability to spot a developing opportunity for a team move. A different type of "vision".

[Cleon]

I wish I had more time to reply but I don't atm. I'll give it the detailed response it deserves tomorrow. As I've noticed simliar patterns in my own game and find it hard to disagree with what you've put. Thank's for the input SFraer

While I'm here I'd also like to clear something up. I've been reading a lot of threads on here in the last few days and it seems like people are getting confused with Hugs Touchline, Cut inside and Moves into channels. Despite what people are saying can I point out that moves into channels is an off the ball situation only. And doesn't work when the so called player has the ball. Hugs touchline and cuts inside are action for a player with the ball. People seem to be confused for some reason.

[Jenko_EFC]

I've seen players cut inside without the ball when making a run though. Surely Cuts Inside is/can be both?

[Cleon]

The cut inside tick option is only an on the ball action. If you see it happening off the ball then its something else causing it and not the actual tactical setting.

[SFraser]

I've seen players cut inside without the ball when making a run though. Surely Cuts Inside is/can be both?

That's not him cutting inside, that's him making an Off the Ball run.

[Jenko_EFC]

Starting from a wide position cutting inside? Put your Striker with Cut Inside on and you'll see it happening a lot. I understand the difference, if it was an off the ball run, he'd look to make runs down the flank if he was a winger, rather than the cutting inside he does.

[Cleon]

Starting from a wide position cutting inside? Put your Striker with Cut Inside on and you'll see it happening a lot. I understand the difference, if it was an off the ball run, he'd look to make runs down the flank if he was a winger, rather than the cutting inside he does.

Nope it can't be, its an on the ball action only. Plus how can your striker cut inside when he already should be in a central position? Unless you mean a AML/AMR and not an actual striker. So the reason you are seeing it is down to other things like off the ball, decisions, PPM's and so on. It's not the settings causing it. That only has an impact on a player if he is in possession of the ball. And just because someone is a winger doesn't mean he'd look at making the run down the flank rather than cutting in. A position doesn't define a player, his attributes do.

[Jenko_EFC]

If you give a Striker (STC) Cut Inside for Wideplay, he floats out wide off the ball and makes a run cutting inside, as a Winger would. I've seen it happen a lot. Same for a winger. With Cut Inside, where would they run off the ball then? In my opinion, they'd look inside because of their Wideplay.

[Cleon]

I'm sorry but you are mistaking a player's attributes and confusing them with instructions. I can guarantee 100% that it is only an on the ball action. Which means it has no impact, none whatsoever on a player's off the ball movement. And using a striker as an example is a bad move because regardless of their attributes and settings they will always look to play more centralised as they are in the strikers position. You very well might have seen it happen but it is not due to the cuts inside option like you claim. Sorry to be so blunt but you are wrong.

[Jenko_EFC]

Meh, don't worry about being blunt, hate it when people get all defensive and whatnot, we're on an internet forum, I'm hardly going to take offence to being proved wrong.

I've seen it a few times, I was helping some guy out on his tactic and he had it for Pato my Striker at AC Milan and he kept drifting wide and cutting inside without Roaming (iirc) but with Cuts inside whereas the other Striker didn't do it and he had Roaming without Cuts Inside on. I'll thoroughly test it tomorrow because I've been busy tonight playing football and I'll be happily proved wrong I imagine.

[tanglewood]

Cleon, great thread and a very interesting read. A lot of the attributes seem to be pretty much effecting what I've suspected they do for all these years which is good, but the way you break things down in clear and simple language is really helpful in crystalising thoughts.

Quick couple of questions:

1. Do you watch matches in 2d or 3d? Unfortunately my old Mac laptop can't handle the 3d engine, so I hope I'm not disadvantaged tactically due to this!

2. What level of highlights do watch games on? I always use Key, apart from vital games like Champions League knockout matches or top of table league games where I use Extended. I know watching more of each game would be more helpful, just wondering if you have the patience to do so for every match or not, because I sure don't.

3. How often do you go back and do detailed analysis (comparable to what you do in the thread) for a match? For every game? On a regular basis to check how things are going? Or only for exceptional matches where you play very well/very badly and want to see why?

Thanks in advance and KUTGW!

Edit: Also, SFrazer if you would be kind enough to answer too that'd be great, because you are a true FM tactics legend.

[Cleon]

Cleon, great thread and a very interesting read. A lot of the attributes seem to be pretty much effecting what I've suspected they do for all these years which is good, but the way you break things down in clear and simple language is really helpful in crystalising thoughts.

Quick couple of questions:

1. Do you watch matches in 2d or 3d? Unfortunately my old Mac laptop can't handle the 3d engine, so I hope I'm not disadvantaged tactically due to this!

2. What level of highlights do watch games on? I always use Key, apart from vital games like Champions League knockout matches or top of table league games where I use Extended. I know watching more of each game would be more helpful, just wondering if you have the patience to do so for every match or not, because I sure don't.

3. How often do you go back and do detailed analysis (comparable to what you do in the thread) for a match? For every game? On a regular basis to check how things are going? Or only for exceptional matches where you play very well/very badly and want to see why?

Thanks in advance and KUTGW!

Edit: Also, SFrazer if you would be kind enough to answer too that'd be great, because you are a true FM tactics legend.

Thanks

1 - On 2d it can be hard to spot certain things. If you watch 2d then make sure you always read the text too. If not you could miss something important and might not fully understand why something has happened. When at home I use 3d, when out and about 2d

2 - Once I'm happy with a tactic I'll use key highlights. But until that stage I actually watch full games as it allows you to see things in greater detail. It also allows you to fix any problems in the system you use a lot quicker.

3 - I'm always looking at the match engine in great detail so for me I analyse almost every game in great detail. If I wanted to play fast though I'd just do it every so often if things didn't feel right or for the big games. The reason I do it for almost every game is because I like to see the different ways the tactic reacts against different formations.

Some new stuff with be posted later btw

[Miek]

Thanks

1 - On 2d it can be hard to spot certain things. If you watch 2d then make sure you always read the text too. If not you could miss something important and might not fully understand why something has happened. When at home I use 3d, when out and about 2d

Could yoou elaborate on this?

[Cleon]

Could yoou elaborate on this?

Nothing to elaborate on really. But on 3d you can actually see the player's movement a lot better than a 2d blob .

[Benoit2]

Moving into channels is 100% off the ball and cut inside and hug touchline 100% on the ball, as confirmed by PaulC. Any cutting inside you see off the ball is either natural behaviour, or determined by attributes. However, as of ME 920 (wait for patch 3 for that), cut inside will also be off the ball a little:

- Made wingers with cut inside or free role instructions run slightly more centrally into space when possible

[Cleon]

Moving into channels is 100% off the ball and cut inside and hug touchline 100% on the ball, as confirmed by PaulC. Any cutting inside you see off the ball is either natural behaviour, or determined by attributes. However, as of ME 920 (wait for patch 3 for that), cut inside will also be off the ball a little:

Cheers mate, was looking for the quote from PaulC but couldn't find it

I've updated the thread with my signings now. So that means tomorrow we can finally start talking about the tactical side of things again and discuss the tactic I am using. I've wrote a lot of it already I just need to upload the images then post it. But it's kinda late now, so I'll do that tomorrow

[dz47]

Cleon,

I just wanted to ask about your choice of DC (Roland Juhasz), in particular your assertion that he is "as good as any defender already in the premier league". I ask this in the spirit of the thread, and in particular to improve my own knowledge of what key attributes to look for in particular positions/roles, and which attributes can be 'compromised' on.

When i look at your new DC, i see many obvious positives in key defensive attributes. But then i see that he has 6 for aggression and 7 for bravery. To me these would be critically low key attributes for a central defender, and would probably lead me to view the player as flawed and not worth taking a chance on (despite his obvious strengths in other areas).

Are you not concerned that these very low attributes will see him pulling out of challenges etc, and therefore undermining the very role you want him to play (as well as undermining his other apparent strengths in tacking, heading etc)? If not, i'd be really interested in how you understand his attributes and the way that they will lead him to play in your tactical set up, and in particular, how you see his strengths outweighing his flaws.

I'm about to start a new save and will be trying to build a team by focussing on gettiing the right players with the right attributes/characteristics for the way i want to play, rather than just buying the usual 'good/great' players; so your response (and this thread overall) will really help me to do this.

Cheers.

[Cleon]

Hi dz47,

Cleon,

I just wanted to ask about your choice of DC (Roland Juhasz), in particular your assertion that he is "as good as any defender already in the premier league". I ask this in the spirit of the thread, and in particular to improve my own knowledge of what key attributes to look for in particular positions/roles, and which attributes can be 'compromised' on.

I'm glad it raised some questions as that's the point of the thread. So I'll try and answer them the best I can.

When i look at your new DC, i see many obvious positives in key defensive attributes. But then i see that he has 6 for aggression and 7 for bravery. To me these would be critically low key attributes for a central defender, and would probably lead me to view the player as flawed and not worth taking a chance on (despite his obvious strengths in other areas).

You raised some very good points but it is highly unlikely that I would find someone who is good at everything. So what I tend to do is bring someone in who has the more good attributes than bad ones. Plus due to having a very small budget I have to make the best of what I can afford. Saying that though, I'd have still bought him even if I was a big club.

Are you not concerned that these very low attributes will see him pulling out of challenges etc, and therefore undermining the very role you want him to play (as well as undermining his other apparent strengths in tacking, heading etc)? If not, i'd be really interested in how you understand his attributes and the way that they will lead him to play in your tactical set up, and in particular, how you see his strengths outweighing his flaws.

You'll see how I've set him up exactly a little later when I upload the tactical settings for him.

But to give you an answer now, I'm not that concerned that they are low. Lets start by looking at aggression;

This reflects a player’s attitude in terms of playing mentality but is not necessarily a dirtiness indicator. A more aggressive player will look to involve himself in every incident and get stuck in, perhaps at the expense of a yellow card or two. A less aggressive player may shy away from situations and merely drop into his comfort zone.

Now taking his other stats into account his so called comfort zone doesn't look that bad. He will be happy to challenge for headers and I'm confident he will still do them. In fact for how I will be settings him up, him not risking getting lots of bookings will be a bonus. Especially as I don't have any real cover who can cover for 4 or 5 games for him.

Let's take a look at his low bravery;

How committed and indeed, brave, a player is. Braver players will risk injury more in situations a lesser-minded player may shy away from. They’ll go in where it hurts and lay it on the line for the team.

Again this isn't a bad thing. Especially if I set him up a limited defender and have set to cover. He has the right stats for that. His anticipation would become the worse attribute then as its 14, but that's still more than good enough.

Also we need to take into account who he'll be playing with. Here is a picture for you;

Now he more than makes up for the stats the other defender doesn't have. I think I've got a good balance and got 2 defenders who compliment each other well. I'm not keen on having two defenders who are the same type of player, as I like my defence to be able to deal with all situations well and not just some of them.

if you read any post that SFraser has done, then you'll see how he is always talking about balance and how it helps formations. As far as I have seen he is the only person who talks about getting a balance and actually understands what it means. That's what I tried to do in defence, get a good balance. It'll become clearer once you see the settings.

I'm about to start a new save and will be trying to build a team by focussing on gettiing the right players with the right attributes/characteristics for the way i want to play, rather than just buying the usual 'good/great' players; so your response (and this thread overall) will really help me to do this.

Cheers.

I hope I've answered well enough for you, if you not then say and I'll try a different approach

It'll be easier once the tactic I am using is been discussed which should be a little later on.

Ohh and thanks for the questions, you are one of the few people who ask good valid questions. So keep them coming

[Filke]

can i ask something, im interested about that balance in team, is that related more to 442 and other formations where is cooperation more important. And maybe a stupid question is it a problem if i have two brave and agressive center backs?

Thanks

[Cleon]

I think balance is important regardless of what shape you use. If you don't get the right balance between defence and attack things can go seriously wrong.

Having 2 centrebacks who are brave and aggressive shouldn't be a problem no. Just keep an eye on them and make sure there not giving away needless freekicks in dangerous situations. As that would be a bad thing. Having 2 centrebacks with bravery and aggression can be a good thing. I was just highlighting in my own side that you can cope with out that if you don't have the right kind of player. It's all about tailoring the tactical settings to suit a player who might lack certain attributes. Something which will become clearer and expanded on greatly when I upload what I've written so far.

[Filke]

I have just read SFraser's text about tackling and its much clearer to me how to respond to certain situations.

[Cleon]

I have just read SFraser's text about tackling and its much clearer to me how to respond to certain situations.

Yeah some good stuff in there. I'd recommend reading anything he's written as it's normally worthwhile if he has. Plus he's had a massive part to play in this thread especially the early stages

[pandemonium]

Meh, don't worry about being blunt, hate it when people get all defensive and whatnot, we're on an internet forum, I'm hardly going to take offence to being proved wrong.

I've seen it a few times, I was helping some guy out on his tactic and he had it for Pato my Striker at AC Milan and he kept drifting wide and cutting inside without Roaming (iirc) but with Cuts inside whereas the other Striker didn't do it and he had Roaming without Cuts Inside on. I'll thoroughly test it tomorrow because I've been busy tonight playing football and I'll be happily proved wrong I imagine.

I'm pretty sure Pato has "moves into channels" as a PPM, which mught explain this behavior, and why the other striker doesn't do it as well.

[macca72]

Cleon,

At some stage (probably after you've worked through your current project) would you be willing to run a "attributes surgery" where people can drop in with how they play, and the positions they struggle to get consistancy in? Reason I ask is I'm working on my 4231 and have struggled to find players who play well in my AMC (support) slot.

Would be great if you could share some of the thinking above and people can apply it to their own player searches / way of playing...

[Cleon]

Cleon,

At some stage (probably after you've worked through your current project) would you be willing to run a "attributes surgery" where people can drop in with how they play, and the positions they struggle to get consistancy in? Reason I ask is I'm working on my 4231 and have struggled to find players who play well in my AMC (support) slot.

Would be great if you could share some of the thinking above and people can apply it to their own player searches / way of playing...

I've never really thought of it really. Not because I don't want to help but more because of the time I spend on here is rather limited at times. But it is something I can maybe look into when this project is finished. Although finishing this will take quite a while longer and will probably overlap into FM12.

That been said though, if you post up in this thread I'll be happy to give you advice if you need it. Just post up what you are struggling with and I'll gladly help if I can. What you've described above kind of ties in with this anyway, so fire away mate

[macca72]

Excellent, well I'm setting my 4-2-3-1 up to play with 2 inside forwards (hopefully we'll get onto them later;)) and a supporting AMC (just an attacking midfielder, as I've got a deep lying playmaker in the MC slots).

If I follow the advice of the TC, there's only 1 guy who pops up who'll be interested in joining me (I've filtered at 13 for the attribute ratings, which I would imagine is fair to good for the Championship). He's called David Noble, and he's at Exeter. He looks good to be honest, but given his rather journeyman lower league career, I'm a bit worried that he won't be quite good enough ability wise.

From what (I hope) I can read from the role and the instruction in the TC, he's going to sit in "the hole", and occasionally venture forward to support the lone striker. So the usual suspects of passing, creativity, technique will apply.

What interests me is the flair and balance element. You seem to get a wider variety of players when these are removed, just how important are these, and what do they bring to the role ?

This sort of leaves me with a few questions...

1. How important is ability vs. attributes (assuming I'm right that he's not the next Messi).

2. Is it generally better to have more matching attributes at a lower rating, or fewer matching attributes with higher levels in some.

3. How do I make sure I don't throw away a potentially great player because of one or two percievably poor attributes (much like your example of the DC you bought).

These really lead to one major question, one which would be great to get opinion on...Generally speaking what are the key attributes (assuming the TC pads out the requirements somewhat) for each role within the game.

That went on a bit and lead to a more general question, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that strong players for the roles you assign them leads to over performance, rather than a strong "tactic" driving it.

[Cleon]

Excellent, well I'm setting my 4-2-3-1 up to play with 2 inside forwards (hopefully we'll get onto them later) and a supporting AMC (just an attacking midfielder, as I've got a deep lying playmaker in the MC slots).

If I follow the advice of the TC, there's only 1 guy who pops up who'll be interested in joining me (I've filtered at 13 for the attribute ratings, which I would imagine is fair to good for the Championship). He's called David Noble, and he's at Exeter. He looks good to be honest, but given his rather journeyman lower league career, I'm a bit worried that he won't be quite good enough ability wise.

I just had a look at him on my own game and he looks all right. Lacks quite a few stats on my game though especially physical attributes. I think he only has 6 for that on my game. He only has 10 stamina too which means he wouldn't be able to play as regular as you'd like. Unless he has different stats on your game, in which case ignore me lol.

Who are you playing as btw and what are the expectations of the club for this season?

What interests me is the flair and balance element. You seem to get a wider variety of players when these are removed, just how important are these, and what do they bring to the role ?

They both can be important but it doesn't mean they have to have those. A good example would be the aggression and bravery thing I posted further up. As long as a player has more good attributes than bad for the position and style you want him to play the better. You're never gonna find someone who is good at everything for a required position unless you are a top team or very lucky. Balance will help a player stay on his feet. Flair is good if you want a player to be less predictable and more creative. Basically it's his natural talent to do the unpredictable and be creative. It's a good bonus stat to have but I wouldn't class it as essential. Someone with low flair can still perform amazing with the right settings. Especially if he has other good attributes.

This sort of leaves me with a few questions...

1. How important is ability vs. attributes (assuming I'm right that he's not the next Messi).

2. Is it generally better to have more matching attributes at a lower rating, or fewer matching attributes with higher levels in some.

3. How do I make sure I don't throw away a potentially great player because of one or two percievably poor attributes (much like your example of the DC you bought).

1 - For me it's attributes every time. Attributes are what drives the game and the attributes determine a player's ability. I believe this is why I do so good at the game as I pay attention to attributes above everything else. Also look at SFrazer he knows better than anyone how the attributes work and has a excellent understanding of them also. He also seems to have great success and gets player's doing good things in games. It's no coincidence imo.

2 - Hmm this one depends. Sometimes I get someone who has more attributes that are low, but only if he's going to be used as a rotation player rather than a regular. But the majority of the time you can filter the attributes and find someone who has enough high attributes in the areas you need for whatever role you give him.

3 - I don't mean to sound patronising here but use common sense. Take into account your transfer budget and season expectations for a start. Then work from that. If you are a big club then you might be able to be more fussy and require higher attributes in most things. Basically just get as many good stats for what his role acquires as possible. But don't ever discount someone just because you think bravery might be too low or his determination. If a player has good attributes but lacks a particular stat then it shouldn't matter too much. It'll only matter if the player in question has low attributes for majority of the ones he will use for the role you give him.

These really lead to one major question, one which would be great to get opinion on...Generally speaking what are the key attributes (assuming the TC pads out the requirements somewhat) for each role within the game.

The TC is kind of spot on. I did a guide somewhere though that did have some differing ones. I can't find the link though but I'll keep trying to find it for you. As I explained it for every position.

That went on a bit and lead to a more general question, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that strong players for the roles you assign them leads to over performance, rather than a strong "tactic" driving it.

Strong player's for a role you assign is good tactics. They both kind of go hand in hand. But yeah I get what you mean, let the player dictate the role rather than a tactic trying to force a certain playstyle.

I'm happy to answer any questions you have btw, so if you think I've not answered good enough or properly just let me know

Hope I've been some help for you

[macca72]

I just had a look at him on my own game and he looks all right. Lacks quite a few stats on my game though especially physical attributes. I think he only has 6 for that on my game. He only has 10 stamina too which means he wouldn't be able to play as regular as you'd like. Unless he has different stats on your game, in which case ignore me lol.

Who are you playing as btw and what are the expectations of the club for this season?

Yeah, his physicals aren't great (fitness = 6 & stamina = 10) but my plan is to rotate with a player in my squad already. In terms of who i'm playing with, if I tell you that you won't help

I'm playing as Leeds, seasons expectations are top half finish, but I know if I make 3-4 good signings in the key positions, I should be able to push for promotion.

1 - For me it's attributes every time. Attributes are what drives the game and the attributes determine a player's ability. I believe this is why I do so good at the game as I pay attention to attributes above everything else. Also look at SFrazer he knows better than anyone how the attributes work and has a excellent understanding of them also. He also seems to have great success and gets player's doing good things in games. It's no coincidence imo.

2 - Hmm this one depends. Sometimes I get someone who has more attributes that are low, but only if he's going to be used as a rotation player rather than a regular. But the majority of the time you can filter the attributes and find someone who has enough high attributes in the areas you need for whatever role you give him.

3 - I don't mean to sound patronising here but use common sense. Take into account your transfer budget and season expectations for a start. Then work from that. If you are a big club then you might be able to be more fussy and require higher attributes in most things. Basically just get as many good stats for what his role acquires as possible. But don't ever discount someone just because you think bravery might be too low or his determination. If a player has good attributes but lacks a particular stat then it shouldn't matter too much. It'll only matter if the player in question has low attributes for majority of the ones he will use for the role you give him.

Really helpful this thanks.

Would you say that different roles require a focus in different attribute categories ? There's a few players i've come across (try and find a player called Tijani Belaid) who have what look like great technical atts, but poor (very poor in his case) physical and mental atts. What's your thoughts on this type of player ?

Thanks for the time, i'm not fishing for any kind of "answer", just wanting to learn and understand your thought process:thup:.

[Cleon]

I've used Tijani Belaid myself when playing as Swansea. He was a great signing. His physicals are poor but he has great technicals and some alright mentals. Especially his creative side. He is what I call an impact player who you can bring off the bench and change a game. Or if you've got a tricky game play him and allow to see if he can influence a game. I like having someone a bit different in the side. Especially in the Championship. The only time I'd ignore a player like that was if I was a top 10 EPL side

And I don't mind the questions, keep firing away

Oh and yeah I tend to look for different stats depending on someones role. I'll try and give you a list sometime tomorrow of my preferences

[macca72]

The way i've tried to arrange it it my mind, is that some roles require a greater focus on certain types of attribute. So take Mr Belaid above, is it the mentals that reduce his overall impact at a higher level in comparison to someone like Van Der Vaart, who has similar technical stats, but is streets ahead in terms of mentals ?

I agree that the TC is obviously correct in the respect that it shows you the right attributes to look for, to build on it my question to you is, do you think that the game would benefit from showing the user primary and secondary attributes ? I'm not sure myself, on on hand I think it would be good because people may understand why some players don't perform in the way they would like in some roles, but on the other hand might be a bit too straight forward.

Taking a role example then..

A box to box midfielder. There are 0 players on my db who "fit" the attributes outlined in the TC to a lowest level of 13. Even at 12, the players it throws up are not quite who you would expect. I also would have thought teamwork would be a fairly important stat for this role, but the TC disagrees.

Would be really great to see how you choose players for certain roles:thup:

[SFraser]

For me it's attributes every time. Attributes are what drives the game and the attributes determine a player's ability.

Absolutely. From Tactical Instructions to Teamtalks it is attributes that define every single reaction and event. The whole crux of the game is applying some basic changes to players attributes. Every single thing you can do ingame is either about influencing attributes directly, or influencing calculations involving attributes.

I believe this is why I do so good at the game as I pay attention to attributes above everything else.

The funny thing is that the more you pay attention to attibutes, the more you really understand players as individuals you cant totally control.

Stare at attributes long enough and you start seeing wholly unique players.

It starts off with "thats his Anticipation" and ends up with "well done Jonny Evans son, great tackle" because you understand players.

Cleon said I know attributes better than most, I am probably the only one that watches every match in Full Match Replay. Is it cause or effect? Or is it the enjoyment of getting involved in the stories of my players?

[macca72]

Cleon said I know attributes better than most, I am probably the only one that watches every match in Full Match Replay. Is it cause or effect? Or is it the enjoyment of getting involved in the stories of my players?

I admire that approach, it doesn't fit with how I choose to play the game, but what I'm hoping to do is gain enough knowledge so that I know i'm recruiting the right players for my system and how I want it to work, even though the likelyhood of me being as successful as I could be following your approach is less.

Expanding on my point above about primary and secondary attributes, another idea would be to have the ability to overlay roles during player searches. Would be grateful for your thoughts on this...

This is why this is such an important thread. Actually understanding what attributes fit together, and what roles certain attributes and combinations of attributes mean to a role and how they play out in the ME, makes tactic creation a much easier task.

[SFraser]

I admire that approach, it doesn't fit with how I choose to play the game, but what I'm hoping to do is gain enough knowledge so that I know i'm recruiting the right players for my system and how I want it to work, even though the likelyhood of me being as successful as I could be following your approach is less.

Expanding on my point above about primary and secondary attributes, another idea would be to have the ability to overlay roles during player searches. Would be grateful for your thoughts on this...

This is why this is such an important thread. Actually understanding what attributes fit together, and what roles certain attributes and combinations of attributes mean to a role and how they play out in the ME, makes tactic creation a much easier task.

Building a team isn't about the attributes of a player, it's about the the attributes of a team.

The answer to the question "what attributes fit together" is vast. Great managers use attributes and can make teams out of attributes. There is no answer that question. The only question people like Cleon and myself can answer is what are the attributes that are best for a specific type of player/role in your team.

Even the best of attribute watchers are still playing football, still watching and developing a football match. It is still a football match. I recently bought an attacking rightback because I am planning for my defensive fullback to move into the centre once my current first choice fullback starts to decline. It hasn't happened yet but it will, and this new attacking fullback will show me his stuff and show me whether I need to add to the right back or centreback position when my current first choice gets too old.

The game is football, give a problem and good FM managers can solve it. There is no objective, absolute rule to this game.

[macca72]

Absolutely, apologies I didn't articulate myself properly. I have a good idea of the style and philosophy I want to manage by, I'm happy that I need to make sure I employ my roles correctly and make the most of my players, what I'm hoping to learn from you and Cleon is how to make sure I identify the right players and why they play like they do in their assigned role.

Cheers

[Cleon]

Absolutely. From Tactical Instructions to Teamtalks it is attributes that define every single reaction and event. The whole crux of the game is applying some basic changes to players attributes. Every single thing you can do ingame is either about influencing attributes directly, or influencing calculations involving attributes.

That's a really good way of putting it. The more people who begin to understand this the better.

The funny thing is that the more you pay attention to attibutes, the more you really understand players as individuals you cant totally control.

Stare at attributes long enough and you start seeing wholly unique players.

It starts off with "thats his Anticipation" and ends up with "well done Jonny Evans son, great tackle" because you understand players.

It's actually true that. I know exactly how everyone of my players will react to everything. I guess in a way it's like a real football manager. Take Alex Ferguson for example, he will know what everyone one of his players is capable of and knows how they will react in every single situation. That is why he wins so many titles. He knows when to introduce new blood into the team and knows the right time to rest people. When you study the attributes for a player in FM you get the same kind of understanding and you begin to see each players different personality.

Cleon said I know attributes better than most, I am probably the only one that watches every match in Full Match Replay. Is it cause or effect? Or is it the enjoyment of getting involved in the stories of my players?

I'm the same on career games. I like to be heavily involved in everything. In my Sheffield F.C game I've played something like 47 hours and done like 5 days in game time. I think one game I played took me like 5 hours to complete because I kept pausing it and studying it for that long. Maybe its just me, but I find it easy to get lost in a game especially if it's an interesting one from a tactical view.

I know this level of detail is probably overkill for most users but each to their own and that.

I admire that approach, it doesn't fit with how I choose to play the game, but what I'm hoping to do is gain enough knowledge so that I know i'm recruiting the right players for my system and how I want it to work, even though the likelyhood of me being as successful as I could be following your approach is less.

If you ever get a spare 10 minutes you should watch over some of the games you've played. Even if you keep watching the same match over and over. Do it until you know why each pass was made, why every tackle was made and so on. That's how I learnt. It's hard at first but once you can identify 1 particular attribute the rest is easy and it's like a domino effect, they all start falling into place.

This is why this is such an important thread. Actually understanding what attributes fit together, and what roles certain attributes and combinations of attributes mean to a role and how they play out in the ME, makes tactic creation a much easier task.

Not to blow my own trumpet or anything but it's probably the most important thread on the forum. Well when it's got a bit more detail it will be. It's a giant task though as I'm doing most of it on my own. Heath gave me a little input on stuff I'd wrote and SFraser discussed the details of all attributes at great lengths with me over several weeks. But that's the only input I've had off anyone. Sfrasers input though was priceless because when you're writing stuff yourself you kinda get confused at certain stages and start tying yourself in knots lol. It's nice to get someone else who shares the same view and thoughts but might word it differently.

Building a team isn't about the attributes of a player, it's about the the attributes of a team

Yeah this is what creates the balance we always talk about.

The answer to the question "what attributes fit together" is vast. Great managers use attributes and can make teams out of attributes. There is no answer that question. The only question people like Cleon and myself can answer is what are the attributes that are best for a specific type of player/role in your team.

Even the best of attribute watchers are still playing football, still watching and developing a football match. It is still a football match. I recently bought an attacking rightback because I am planning for my defensive fullback to move into the centre once my current first choice fullback starts to decline. It hasn't happened yet but it will, and this new attacking fullback will show me his stuff and show me whether I need to add to the right back or centreback position when my current first choice gets too old.

The game is football, give a problem and good FM managers can solve it. There is no objective, absolute rule to this game.

This sums up the tactical side of the game perfectly for me

[Cleon]

Absolutely, apologies I didn't articulate myself properly. I have a good idea of the style and philosophy I want to manage by, I'm happy that I need to make sure I employ my roles correctly and make the most of my players, what I'm hoping to learn from you and Cleon is how to make sure I identify the right players and why they play like they do in their assigned role.

Cheers

I should touch on this tomorrow when I post up the Fulham and Man Utd games from my first 2 games in the premiership. As you'll see why I choose certain settings for certain players and hopefully be able to show the impact it had on a game. Like in one game I've just played I used 2 ball winning midfielder's but for the other 19 prem games I've played I used 1 ball winning midfielder and 1 deep lying playmaker. Why did I feel the need to change for this game? And what was the result and impact of using them. These are all things we can expect to be expanded on.

Wish I had more hours in a day, it's time consuming writing things up and trying to upload them at same time. So bare with me a little as I'm not good when I set myself deadlines I hardly ever make them as you'll have noticed

[Jenko_EFC]

Cleon said I know attributes better than most, I am probably the only one that watches every match in Full Match Replay. Is it cause or effect? Or is it the enjoyment of getting involved in the stories of my players?

I watch almost every game on my current save in FM10 on Full Match 2-D and understand attributes well, I know my team inside out and whatnot. I don't normally, Extended usually suffices but I'm really loving this game and it's awesome to watch.

I've now started the whole "That took x, y and z to pull off" and it's quite a nice way of watching games and certainly adds more depth into the game and really helps knowing what to look for when buying players. I'm obviously not as good as you or Cleon at the game but that's the point of the forums; you learn a lot from threads like these and improve at the game.

[Cleon]

I watch almost every game on my current save in FM10 on Full Match 2-D and understand attributes well, I know my team inside out and whatnot. I don't normally, Extended usually suffices but I'm really loving this game and it's awesome to watch.

I've now started the whole "That took x, y and z to pull off" and it's quite a nice way of watching games and certainly adds more depth into the game and really helps knowing what to look for when buying players. I'm obviously not as good as you or Cleon at the game but that's the point of the forums; you learn a lot from threads like these and improve at the game.

Hows that going, are you finding it easy to see which attributes are involved in a certain move? It can be hard at first but becomes much easier once you can spot for example off the ball or creativity.